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Will Harvey On Virtual Worlds, Technology Curves

Posted by simoniker on from the microserfs-incarnate dept.

CowboyRobot writes "Slashdot's former editor Chris DiBona has an interview with videogame creator Will Harvey over at ACMQueue. Harvey has had a hand in lots of stuff you've used, from Zany Golf to Adobe AfterEffects, and now runs There, a kind of online 3D 'virtual world' game. Their conversation covers games in general, as well as specifics of the challenges that There is facing. From the article: 'You have to project the curves: the rendering curve; the CPU speed curve; the money spent on the Internet on online games curve; the number of people who play online games curve. I think we guessed right on almost everything, but we underestimated Moore's Law and we overestimated the low-end graphics capability'."

22 of 94 comments (clear)

  1. There has interesting people. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative
    Many of the highest-flying companies (from Organic's record-setting one day IPO, to Electronic Arts) have people at there

    In some ways success was so easy for them, they may have been overconfident too.

  2. One Curve to Rule them All! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    I for one, continue to welcome our curvaceous, female overlords...

  3. I wonder by rotciv86 · · Score: 4, Informative

    How fast the old 3-D games would run on modern day technology. I remember playing the origianl Wing Commander on an old 486. Would it even be playable on say an athlon with a geforece card?

    --


    My ghEtt0 webpage.
    1. Re:I wonder by FisterBelvedere · · Score: 5, Informative
      No, most of the older games run at blazingly fast speed in windows on modern computers (if they run at all that is)

      If the game runs too fast, here's what to do:

      Find the game's executable file (the file you run, usually
      {somename}.exe) using Windows Explorer. Right click on the file, and
      choose "Properties".

      Click the "Program" tab. Click the "Advanced" button.

      Check the "Comaptible Timer Emulation" box. Click "OK", then "Apply", then "OK" again. See if that fixes the games speed.
      If that doesn't fix the problem:

      A utility called "Moslo" can help solve this problem. Read the FAQ on Moslo here:
      DOSGAMES.com FAQ #3: Moslo.

      --

      FisterBelvedere -- Putting a whole new meaning to "streaks on the china" since 1996.

    2. Re:I wonder by bircho · · Score: 5, Funny

      No, most of the older games run at blazingly fast speed in windows on modern computers

      Just turn the Turbo key off... oh wait...

    3. Re:I wonder by Tweaker_Phreaker · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Or you could just do the smart thing by turning vertical syncronization (vsync) on in your graphics drivers so that it will only render as many frames as your monitor can display. I'd recommend never turning vsync off when playing games; only turn it off for benchmarking.

  4. Music Construction Set on Apple II by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    by Will Harvey.

    It used precisely timed 6502 assembly to get 4-voice polyphony out of the system address $C030, which only toggled the speaker diaphragm from one state to another. Amazing.

  5. The same prolem for all new MMORPG by S3D · · Score: 5, Interesting

    That is the comon pitfall of all latest MMORPG: desiners rely on player created content and player-driven economy. The problem is - it never work. Worlds designed for player created content are blan and empty. Player-driven economy unwieldy, inconvinient and is not fun. To be creative players have to be provided with a lot of extensive tools and abilities, and that kind diversity usually destroy balance. No balance = no fun. More restrictive tools - no players creativity. The "There" seems too abitious - they want all genres in one game. Too much framework usually mean too little premade content, and that usually spell disaster...However there's always a hope that this time they will manage to do it right...

    1. Re:The same prolem for all new MMORPG by cmacb · · Score: 4, Interesting

      " That is the comon pitfall of all latest MMORPG: desiners rely on player created content and player-driven economy. The problem is - it never work."

      That's like saying that the Internet will never work because what most people want is to just sit in front of a TV set and watch.

      There ARE online activities that you would like to just be a passenger in, but there are also things where you want to be the driver too. Why else would so many people have their own web pages, spend so much time creating textures and flash presentations, or post messages to something like Slashdot for that matter?

      Early online games were tightly controlled because the technology didn't allow it to be otherwise. I think MOST, not just a few, 3D online content of the future will be open-ended. Once you have the proper infrastructure in place there is no reason to separate user created content from that provided by the infrastructure vendor.

      Second Life is where There plans to be in two or three years. It needs a broadband connection and 3D graphics card, but if you have those there is no reason to be using a more primitive system such as There, or Sims Online. Might want to give it a try, if you have the hardware.

    2. Re:The same prolem for all new MMORPG by WhodoVoodoo · · Score: 5, Informative

      "That's like saying that the Internet will never work because what most people want is to just sit in front of a TV set and watch."

      Not quite on the head, but as close as you can get in describing MMORPG mentality. Here is what my obserations have been, on MMORPG's (I have played quite a few, including two from this company, one in about 1994. Yeah, it's still making money.

      basically here is it: People who play online RPG's for the most part Do Not Seem To Roleplay. Go into Anarchy Online and start asking around about george bush or something, nobody is going to say, "George who? Is he a new planet overlord?" or whathaveyou. Because they are probably not getting into it that way.

      Fine, whatever.

      But when you trust those same users to entertain themselves, you tend to end up with Missions or Quests or whatever that go like "Kill rabbit, get GiantGlowingSwordOfExplosionNess" Or just crap that isnt that entertaining to ME, or to anyone else for that matter. Why? They'll say "It's just a game." or more likely "d00d itz jus a game, U R GAY how dos you dad lek it??".

      The games I've played from Nexon Inc, Including one named "Darkages" (NOT DAoC) was very different. When it was released, they players were put in charge basically. They made laws for the various cities (Only two had governments, but there were like... 8 cities in all that you could go to. They just didnt have an established gov't) These players, as one of the first rules or laws if you will, stated "You have to actually Roleplay in this game or you get kicked out of these two bigass main cities with all the good hunting/commerce places"

      There were very complex rules regarding punishment for breaking the laws, including capitol punishment by the hands of these wierd wraith looking things (called Sgath), being kicked out of one town or another, and so on. There was also Organized religion. 8 of them. Yes, all handled by the players, because they wanted to, they were dedicated to the community in some way, and certain features were implimented by the developers.

      On Commerce, The players will make their own comemrce system. Im a whateverclass and I need a whateverstick to hunt with people this way at this level, so I get one. Then I sell it to someone in my own position later. Or I need a magicgreenringthingy to give to the giant crab as part of a BigMagicSword Quest, theres a market for these items. Fairly simple if you ask me, markets create themselves among players if conditions are right. You even see inflation and recessions!

      Now this is drawing on, and theres more including guilds, guild/religion quests, and a buttload of player created content and contests including a very, very, VERY vibrant community consisting of: Art, poetry, music, stories and anything inbetween including webcomics.

      Nowadays it's changed quite a bit and some law have been 'repealed' if you will, and the RP aspect isnt so nazily enforced by the PLAYER ELECTED OFFICIALS.

      This is an example of a game kinda done right. The only thing it needed was more content created by the developers in the form of Hard Coded Item Giving Quests and Events. But nonetheless, players carried on doing things that you might do in real life and having a blast doing it.

      Now FINALLY getting to my point (and I'm sorry). I believe equal shares of Developer Content and Player Content and Community Encouraging Activities are required to produce a game that is fun, and will stay fun/fresh for YEARS.

      You cant let players loose in a box and expect them to play tag. You also can't yet players loose in a roped-in-line of quests and level hunting either. You need it all if you expect to make cash for a long time. Though if you sell each copy of the game for 50 bucks, you make your money either way. What a system!

      This is why these games are ridiculously difficult to get right, and make it last. (In adition, Not charging 50 bucks for a game Im going to pay monthly to play AN

  6. Having been in there since an early beta... by Mindcry · · Score: 5, Informative

    I'll say a couple things about it...
    First, the company really has it together, I received the lastest version of the beta on CD mailed to my door with no questions asked every three weeks or so, with a couple spare accounts to give to friends to try... Of the other MMO games (AC,AC2, horizons, SWG) I've beta'd, I had to download over 500mb+ to start, and Sony would send you a beta CD, provided you paid them $12 to do so...

    Second, there is more like a giantic chat room with lots of activities etc etc... its not really like the old "lemme kill 80000 rabbits so i can use the screwdriver to kill 80000 "mildy greater rabbits, but not by that much"... its really much more of an opened ended social atmosphere more towards the sims then hack and slashes...

    and there's plenty of premade stuff in there ;) and it does avoid a lot of the pitfalls you mention (but if you like killing stuff and killing foozles, then that'd be its pitfall)...

    either way, it was pretty smart of them to create their own space instead of trying everquest #42, which i doubt they would have ever made...
    sorry if i sound like an apologist, but your post struck me as lacking background in what exactly is in There, which is actually pretty common ;)

  7. Don't think I by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny
    In There, imagine that you're driving a dune buggy, with a passenger who is shooting a paintgun at another person with a paintgun. And a dog is heeling behind the dune buggy.

    Wow, that sounds great. Just like my dreams.

    /sarcasm

  8. My reaction to There(tm) by alumshubby · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I looked at one of the demos, and it's pretty cute, but this mediated reality stuff still leaves me cold. William Gibson spoiled me; I want to jack in and have a more synesthetic experience than just watching pixels on a flat screen.

    Especially with that one brunette.

    --
    "How many light bulbs does it take to change a person?" --BMcC-->
    1. Re:My reaction to There(tm) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

      > I want to jack in and have a more synesthetic experience than just watching pixels on a flat screen. Especially with that one brunette.

      No problemo.
      http://www.3d-sexgames.com/

    2. Re:My reaction to There(tm) by gaijin99 · · Score: 3, Interesting
      My reaction to There was quite simple. I know that they don't want me around. How do I know this? Because simply trying to look at their freeking website gets me kicked to a "we dedected that you aren't using IE, go download it right now before we condesend to let you see what's happening". So to heck with them. It just isn't that damn hard to make a web page that works for all browsers.

      It did immediately answer my question about what platforms were supported though: Windows and nothing else...

      --
      "Mission Accomplished" -- George W. Bush May 1, 2003
  9. Music Construction Set by Simon+Garlick · · Score: 4, Insightful

    "Will Harvey...?"

    Goddammit, I KNEW I recognised that name. Music Construction Set is one of the best apps I've ever seen, on any platform. That thing was amazing.

    --

    -----
    PGP Key ID 0xCB8FF658
  10. and... learning curve? by Tei · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Ok, CPU will get more cycles. So you will able to put more particles, for smoother rocket trails, and more polys, for far frustrums, and more complex characters. But you will still able a limit around 64 players for FPS internet games. Will suck. Also games will not be x2 fun if become x2 faster. Gamers will use bigger resolutions, that itself eat x4 more horsepower. I think gamming is more complex than CPU power, has also about social problems, gameplay habits and videogames evolution. The view "woow, more particles better game" is too simplistic. I think.

    --

    -Woof woof woof!

  11. My experiences. by CFBMoo1 · · Score: 5, Informative

    No pun, I've been in There and it's amazing to me. I personally like hoverboarding over the 3D landscape they got going there which is nice how it blends from one type to another. You could be atop of a clear hill and pretty much land surf down in to a valley thats not so bright and heavly forested.

    The tricks you can do on a hoverboard are fun. Nothing like about 8 backflips as you fly off the rim of a valcano down to the valley floor on a hover board. Or using small mounds of dirt or small hills to get some nice huge air time. :P

    At first the transitions seemed slightly odd but after reading the article and seeing how different areas are handled from different servers it makes sense and now I think it's nicely done given the challenge of keeping things in sync between multiple servers.

    The paingun battles are fun and cute but definatly not up to Quake or UT feel. They're still fun to pelt someone from the top of a mountain with a well placed shot and watch them fly across the valley floor. No scope or zoom so you have to have skill. ;)

    The only thing I really feel disappointed on in There is the fact that the water is as solid as the land. I can litterly dune buggy across the bay to the next island or walk like on dry land. That was a big disappointment for me, but the other aspects of it don't let it dwell on my mind long.

    They recently launched 2.0 of There and from what I can tell you can play various card games now in a social setting. There is a few other things they added as well, have to check out their site for it. www.there.com

    Overall I feel like I'm in a big cartoon more then a video game. Which I think is neat. One thing I have to wonder about is their ability to hold on to name "There" especially with the Windows trade mark up in court right now. I don't know what kind of hold the company that runs There has on the term "There" but thats a little aside thought I had recently.

    --
    ~~ Behold the flying cow with a rail gun! ~~
  12. Zany Golf! by BobWeiner · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Now THAT was a fun game -- I remember playing it on my Apple IIGS many years ago. It was simple in concept, fun to play, and absolutely frustrating at the higher levels. Whatever happened to these type of games on today's machines? Despite the brilliant graphics and sound on the new first person shooters and RPGs out there, I prefer games of yore that were simple, yet challenging.

    Bring back Zany Golf, Bubble Ghost, and Droll!

    Bob

    --
    The PC Weenies: 11 Years of Online Tech 'Too
  13. Second Life by EssenceLumin · · Score: 5, Informative

    The article briefly mentioned Second Life, dismissing it more or less as too complicated. Bah humbug. Second Life is a great game where you can create anything you like immediately. None of this "Ooh, I can make a tshirt, and maybe they will approve it" junk. I am currently building a house full of twisty corridors with a music room full of instruments and another area with a dinosaur that moves and roars.

    The way things are built in Second Life are from a small number of primitives such as cubes and cylinders which can be stretched and twisted. You can apply textures to these primitives which are any jpeg or targa file you wish to upload. There is also a scripting language and you can upload .wav sound files.

    And there is loads of social interaction too. There are events ranging from bingo to slave auctions (Oops, they made the event owners change that, now they are pet auctions). If you agree to be a pet you have to do your master's bidding but you get to keep the auction money.

    It's a blast, check it out. secondlife.com

    1. Re:Second Life by mutewinter · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The highly the learning curve, the more amazing the creation (relative to other skills such as creativity of course.) I'd rather have something complex and amazing than simple and kind of cool. I've been in Second Life, and I was impressed. I haven't been in There yet, but from what I've seen I haven't really been motivated to check it out yet. I think Second Life is going in the right direction. I think that if they don't screw anything up financially they have more of a future than There.

  14. Re:Old Games, New Hardware. by S.Lemmon · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Have you ever tried any? Remember most of these rendered via software directly to the video card - no acceleration at all, but they were designed to be playable on systems of that time.

    Since then everything from CPU to memory, bus, and video speed has increased dramatically, and the later DOS 3D games do play much faster and smoother on a modern system (if they play at all). You can usually crank all GFX up to full and never see any slowdown.

    The main "problem" I notice is just that the software rendered 3D looks so ugly by today's standards. Supported resolutions are usually very low with none of the filtering and effects we're used to.

    Also since many had no speed throttling, earlier 286 era games can be completely unplayable without something like moslow. It's actually a bit comical to try. By the 486 era PCs varied in speed enough that games at least were written to throttle their max speed. Many won't go above a certain framerate.