Slashdot Mirror

← Back to Stories (view on slashdot.org)

Moving from Linux to Windows Desktop?

Posted by ryuzaki0 on from the mitigating-the-pain dept.

slyall asks: "I work in the Network/System Admin team for an ISP. Our firm was recently bought by another company that has mandated that my team's desktops be switched over from Linux to Windows XP in the next few weeks. Some of us are have used Linux almost exclusively and going to Windows is a big change. Can people suggest any tips, books or websites to help Linux people shoved into the Windows world (especially those running lots of Linux and Cisco boxes)? We've all got years of experience on Linux but running Windows day to day is a big challenge. We don't yet know if the company will provide us with tools such as Cygwin or Windows Services for UNIX but we won't be allowed to install random programs and may not have admin access. We're not happy with the change but we're unable to stop it. What we are hoping to do is reduce the performance hit that the changeover is going to cause." This is probably one of those situations where a LiveCD-based distribution, for use in an emergency, might help.

33 of 167 comments (clear)

  1. Quit. by JamesP · · Score: 4, Insightful

    No, really. If they're obligating you to change it's because they're morons and don't deserve having you as an employee...

    --
    how long until /. fixes commenting on Chrome?
    1. Re:Quit. by desau · · Score: 5, Interesting

      That was exactly going to be my recommendation. At a previous employment, I was faced with a very similar situation. It took me a few days but I came to the decision that I would not continue to work in such an environment. The next day I told my manager that if I was forced to use an OS which limits my abilities as an employee, I would no longer continue my position. He was surprised and amazed, but took it seriously -- my coworkers and I were allowed to keep our environments.

      I eventually left for other reasons. Quitting is always an option. It probably won't net you the same outcome, but I would never stay at such a blinded company.

    2. Re:Quit. by 10101001+10101001 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      No, don't quit. Do what any other good capitalist would do in a situation where you believe there's going to be a lot of loss do to disefficiencies, try to bleed money out of the company. No need to quit when you can just drag it out for months or years. Maybe they'll realize what a huge mistake a sudden switch is.

      PS: I haven't a clue what the company all does, so maybe several of the desktop machines could be converted over without much retraining. I doubt there's any reason to switch though unless there's problems (or if this were Windows, an upgrade cycle). Any sort of switchover is bound to have problems and breed resentment with "loyalists". And maybe in the end, the company will be better off with Windows (anything's possible).

      --
      Eurohacker European paranoia, gun rights, and h
    3. Re:Quit. by Gyler+St.+James · · Score: 5, Funny

      Don't listen to him. He just wants your job before it's shipped overseas. :D BTW, when you quit, where can I send my resume?

      --

    4. Re:Quit. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

      No, really. If they're obligating you to change it's because they're morons and don't deserve having you as an employee...

      I couldn't have said it better myself. In this economy there's plenty of opportunities for programmers who tell management to fuck off over important issues like which OS you can use.

      Oh wait...

    5. Re:Quit. by Otter · · Score: 4, Insightful
      And while you're looking for a new job, along with desau and James, be sure to complain here incessantly about how those damn Indians are stealing all our jobs.

      Honestly, where are you guys posting from, 1998? I'm starting a new job next week and less than thrilled about having to give up my MacOS desktop and use Windows -- but I'll be showing up to work nonetheless.

      --
      What I'm listening to now on Pandora...
    6. Re:Quit. by sweetooth · · Score: 4, Interesting

      There's a huge differance between taking a new job that is differant from what you are used to and being forced to change by new managment. Not only that, but they aren't sure they are going to have admin privileges on thier own boxes and they are supposed to be Net/Sys Admins? I'd leave, I'm not even sure I'd give em two weeks with that kinda of brain dead mentality.

    7. Re:Quit. by Otter · · Score: 3, Insightful
      I'm not saying this isn't stupid. (It probably is, although obviously I don't know the details.)

      Nonetheless, declaring that this is something worth quitting your job over strikes me as incompatible with unending crying about the job market. I remember a few years ago when everyone here thought you should quit if your boss insisted on documents in .doc format instead of .rtf. I remember it every time I now read about the horrors of outsourcing.

      --
      What I'm listening to now on Pandora...
    8. Re:Quit. by Mr.+Darl+McBride · · Score: 4, Interesting
      You don't need to admin your desktop in order to admin the ISP.

      Keep in mind that there's a good chance that there's a reason behind what they're doing. The ISP who bought them may have an existing suite of software they want in place to run the ISP, and it may be Windows-based. We don't know both sides of the story here.

      It may also be a labor issue. Point-and-click Windows admins are a dime a dozen. Unix folks are more expensive. Granted, the average Unix admin can run rings around the average Windows admin productivity-wise, but that's only guaranteed if managed by someone who understands Unix as well. The new management may be Windows-only.

    9. Re:Quit. by MadAhab · · Score: 3, Insightful
      The fact that the takeover dudes are mandating changes without thinking about the needs of their workers, that they are removing their ability to install software, is a damn good sign they are being take over by clueless fucks. Sure, the company was worth buying, but obviously they don't know what they're doing if they use linux. Yeah, right.

      Don't quit until you find a new job, but look now. This company is going to die a slow death if this is how they manage things.

      --
      Expanding a vast wasteland since 1996.
    10. Re:Quit. by innosent · · Score: 4, Insightful

      For large companies, the first statement is absolutely true. Sarbanes-Oxley comes to mind. If the company is publicly traded, document retention policies need to be strictly enforced, and allowing even administrative personnel to modify or delete files becomes a huge liability. The law sucks, but denying you administrative access to your machine could save you $20 million and/or 20 years in prison. Deal with it.

      If you are trying to find a way to maintain productivity levels of experienced Unix staff on Windows, forget it, it is impossible. Anyone that types over 10wpm will be able to do more with a Unix system, since experienced Unix people tend to prefer CLI to GUI, and you can't click that fast. As for books to read, the UI isn't your problem, it's the difference in opinion on Administration. You would really have to know what systems are in place (Active Directory being a major one), how administrative tasks are divided, and what tasks will need to be done by your people on a daily/weekly/monthly basis. You most likely don't need to know everything, and what you do largely depends on what the company expects from you. Unix is not just an operating system, it's a business model, and if the new company doesn't fit that model, you probably aren't in a position to change that. In other words, you probably don't need a book/training on Windows, you need a book/training on your new employer, which hopefully will be provided to you when your department is absorbed. There is really no point in studying something that you don't know you will use.

      --
      --That's the point of being root, you can do anything you want, even if it's stupid.
    11. Re:Quit. by jtheory · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Quitting is always an option. It probably won't net you the same outcome, but I would never stay at such a blinded company.

      It probably won't net you the same *income*, either.

      Personally, I would advice against toughing it out for now (but start looking for another job in the meantime). For now, start making lists. Try to build up some valid numbers on what it will cost you and your group to switch over to locked-down Windows computers. Tally up the software that you use constantly (including your shell!) that either has no analog or only a poor substitute in the new environment. Discuss your development processes (now's the time to document, if you haven't), and how they will suffer, and what you will be losing.

      Once you've built your case, present it, give your strong recommendation, and wait a while. Don't bitch about the conversion, etc. (or they'll think you're perfectly capable of switching, but you're a whiner), just make sure they know you're concerned about the costs for sensible reasons.

      Chances are, they want you to use their standardized XP image because they want to manage everyone's anti-virus software centrally, ease trouble-shooting work for their sys admins, etc.. Maybe you need to firewall off your network segment to keep them happy, and sign a paper guaranteeing that you won't need their help to support your machines. :)

      You might gain some sort of an exemption for your group from the corporate standards... though often sense does NOT prevail, and you'll have to bail eventually.

      Good luck. [Apologies if this post is confused... I should be sleeping]

      --
      There are only 10 types of people: those who understand decimal, those who don't, and, uh, 8 other types I forget.
    12. Re:Quit. by 4of12 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Not only that, but they aren't sure they are going to have admin privileges on thier own boxes and they are supposed to be Net/Sys Admins?

      There are good reasons for giving people vanilla-flavored, locked-down Windows boxes because support techs are easier/cheaper to find and the support costs are as lower than a Windows plus something else environment.

      And that works fine if your corporation's needs are largely met by beancounters, managers and secretaries.

      But any company that relies on code developers and IT literate people for any part of its bread and butter should know to

      • keep those developers happy,
      • give them whatever they want as long as they produce and the cost is reasonable.
      Nothing worse than some heavy-handed policy run amok.

      I run on Linux, am familiar with it, like it and am happy with it. My experiences trying to develop on Windows have been, uh, mixed. I don't like it. That's just me, though.

      OTOH, if I were managing a group of developers and one of them wanted to develop on Windows (a guy in our group learned his craft in a Windows IDE), I'd let them. (Of course, I'd insist on things like ISO compliant C++ instead of Windows-compliant C++, etc., but those issues of standards would be imposed across the board, on people who want to use MacOS X or OpenBSD. The OS, the editor, the compiler should be irrelevant.

      Let your people use what works for them and they'll work for you.

      --
      "Provided by the management for your protection."
  2. hahaha! by yorgasor · · Score: 3, Insightful

    You're the Net/Sys Admins and you won't even have admin access to your own boxes?! Come on, I know the job market is bad, but please, have some dignity.

    --
    Looking for a computer support specialist for your small business? Check out
  3. My Book Recommendation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny


    I recommend this excellent title.

    Think of it as a "howto" for your specific needs.

    It actually contains some excellent humor, espescially considering the subject matter.

    *posted anonymously for obvious reasons*

  4. All you need... by Red+Pointy+Tail · · Score: 4, Funny

    ...is this book.

    But don't worry, I shall be praying for you as well!

  5. Windows Boxes Make Okay X-Terminals by Endive4Ever · · Score: 5, Informative

    Just get the suits to spring for a fresh new copy of Hummingbird Exceed for each desktop. Stuff a Linux box with reasonable power under somebody's desk or in the server room.

    You can cope with Windows if you treat it like a big semi-dumb terminal. It's a damned powerful terminal, and pretty stable if that's all you use it for, plus whatever desktop software they shovel at you.

    --
    ---
  6. All you need by Piquan · · Score: 4, Funny

    You can find what you need at monster.com.

  7. Tips... by Anaxagor · · Score: 5, Informative

    #1: Learn to love the hourglass icon, 'cos you're going to be seeing a lot of it from now on.

    #2: Get used to extension-based file typing, and remember that not everything ending in .scr is a screensaver.

    #3: Develop a healthy sense of paranoia - they are out to get you, especially the ones that send e-mail with subjects like "Hello"

    #4: Give thanks for the guys who develop Win32 ports of Perl, Python, Apache etc because they are the thin geek line that stands between you and Visual Basic, Windows Scripting Host and (ugh) Internet Information Services.

    #5: Get hold of Mozilla, Evolution, and OpenOffice. Man cannot live on IE, Outlook and Office alone.

    #6: Head on over to PacketStorm and stock up on some local admin exploits and the excellent Cain&Abel so you can take back the rights these no-good dirt-farming MCSE's are going to try to take away from you.

    That should get you started.

  8. Windows Tools by JLester · · Score: 5, Interesting
    I haven't made a change from Linux to Windows, but here is what I use to admin all our linux boxes and network equipment:
    • SSH for Windows - works great for terminal access and secure file transfers.
    • Teraterm - network device access via either telnet or serial port. There is an SSH add-on, but I prefer the "real" SSH client above.
    • TightVNC - for your Windows boxes
    • Superscan - great port scanner and all around TCP/IP utility
    • Cygwin - for all your real *nix shell and utility needs
    Those are the ones I use most of the time. I have them on my main computer at work, my home computer, and the laptop I keep in my work van.

    Jason

    --
    "FORMAT C:" - Kills bugs dead!
  9. Try asking some real questions by orthogonal · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I work in the Network/System Admin team for an ISP. Our firm was recently bought by another company that has mandated that my team's desktops be switched over from Linux to Windows XP in the next few weeks.... We don't yet know if the company will provide us with tools such as Cygwin or Windows Services for UNIX but we won't be allowed to install random programs and may not have admin access.

    Try installing this program: "Boss, I'm a professional. So is everybody else on the team. We've all been hired to do a job, a job that requires professional judgement and professional tools. (God know you tell us we're professionals using our judgment when it justifies denying us overtime.) Nevertheless, you're paying us good money to get a job done.

    "But now you've decide after shelling out for our experience and our judgment, you're going to ignore it, and actually deny us the tools we tell you we require to perform our work at the level of quality you've come to expect.

    "We know our jobs. We know the tools we need. We know how to procure and maintain our tools, so there's limit hidden costs here. So why the political decision to hamstring us?

    "Boss, this is really confusing: is the company's goal to get the job done, or is it to produce memos detailing the how much micro-management it's possible to cram down people's throats before they become completely dispirited, unmotivated drones useless to themselves and their company?

    "Or is that the point: to get us to quit so the company doesn't have to cop to down-sizing us?"

    --
    Opinions on the Twiddler2 hand-held keyboard?
  10. One word: by El · · Score: 3, Funny

    Lobotomy. Yeah, you don't need one to move from Linux to Windows... but it helps.

    --

    "Freedom means freedom for everybody" -- Dick Cheney

  11. Re:Recommendations.... (better format) by metacosm · · Score: 4, Insightful
    You will see cygwin (which others will recommend) totally left out of the recommendations. That is because I find it slow and oversized and I am not a huge fan of it.
  12. Microsoft has some information about this. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative
    The best link you could possibly find: And some software that I use on Windows:
    • PuTTY - Probably the best Windows telnet / SSH terminal.
    • NMap - yes, there's a Windows version of this port scanning / network security tool
    • Windows XP Powertoys - the TweakUI control panel toy is probably the most valuable - it lets you set up X-Window like focus that follows the mouse
    Finally, read The Unix-Hater's Handbook.
  13. Deal with it...a professional would. by Gyler+St.+James · · Score: 5, Insightful
    All these people that tell you to quit or try to convince the bosses otherwise aren't giving you sound advice. I am proficient with both Linux variants and Windows. What does that mean? I'm a professional who isn't afraid to learn a new evironment and that I can find more jobs than someone who refuses to learn the other camp's tools and trade. Reality is, you never know when management will ask you to learn something new and you should see that as a challenge.

    Now, as for learning Windows, take the good advice of some of the other posts and install, learn, rinse, repeat until you have a better understading of Windows. It wonn't be fun, but it is worth it. Knowledge has always been key to advancement at anything and you should see this as our opportunity grow as a professional and as a person. Griping about it will not help your situation and as the saying goes: "If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen".

    --

  14. Information about the ISP in question. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Based on the submitter's resume, the ISP he's working for is ihug. And based on a Google search, the buying company is iiNet (confirmed in iiNet's own press release).

    Are there any Linux / Unix-based New Zealand ISPs that feel like offering Simon a new job? (Assuming that posting his situation on Slashdot doesn't get him fired first?)

  15. Re:Leave by frAme57 · · Score: 3, Informative
    Yeah, what he said!

    But seriously, I admire your efforts to adapt to the changes the new owners want to impose on you. I do hope you find a way to get your job done and that you can continue in your job without undue restrictions.

    But think long and hard about this new company. Will your work with them help take your career in the direction you want, or will you forever be pigeon-holed in the company as "one of those lunix freaks from that company we bought a while ago"? What other changes will they bring to your workplace?

    If you can't see yourself working happily for them in five or even two years, start looking now. Take the time to put together a nice, tight resume; maybe even read up on current job-related news, refresh your interviewing techniques, maybe even read a bit about management skills, and start making contacts - all the time keeping your poker face on at work.

    It is much easier to find a job while you have a job. Its a stronger bargaining position for you and it is proof to the interviwer that you are employable.

    --
    "In a hierarchy every employee will rise to his level of incompetence". The Peter Principle
  16. Deal with it... by secolactico · · Score: 4, Insightful

    For what is worth, here's my advice: deal with it.

    If management mandates that you *have* to use Windows XP (which is Win2k with fluff, and win2k is darn good) and that you *won't* have admin access to your desktop, you'll have to swallow the pill or go away.

    I assume you already talked it over with your bosses and failed to convince them to keep the current enviroment, so here's what you should do (assuming you decide not to quit):

    1. Make a list of all the applications you need and make sure they have them (ssh, X server, whatever) and make sure they provide them. They are your work tools and without them, you won't be able to do whatever it is they pay you to do.

    2. Learn to live with Windows. The quicker you adapt, the easier it will be. There are very little workstation related functions that you can do in Linux and not in Windows. The only difference is that you'll probably have to pay for add-ons, as I'm sure you told your bosses, but, hey, it's their call.

    3. Do you really need admin access to your workstation? If so, make your case and present it to them. Do you need to test/install new applications? Do you need to run an application that only runs in admin mode?

    4. Be wary of all those advices we are giving you here (yes, including me). For example, setting a rogue Linux box in a corner and working on it. Going around company policy might land you in hot water even if it's harmless.

    5. Lighten up. It's not the end of the world. If it really makes you that unconfortable, update your resume and try to land another gig.

    --
    No sig
  17. Re:Why seek to reduce the performance hit? by einTier · · Score: 5, Insightful
    Indeed, you need to learn, and learn fast. Believe me, they are just waiting to replace you, like they replaced all the UNIX machines.

    I don't agree with their decision, but I am pretty good at interfacing with managers. I can tell you how they are thinking (if they are so big as to be able to buy out other competitiors). Their first thought is that all branches of the company should use the same technology. This allows for a centralized support staff, and it allows for easy transitions from one branch to another. It's also easier to order equipment and hire personnel when everything is standard across the board.

    Please understand, this doesn't mean it's the best solution for all branches, but it is the best solution from the viewpoint of upper management, and they are the ones calling the shots. It can be good to have each division handling their own affairs and deciding which technology is best, but in my experience, this requires an amazing amount of competence and integrity out of your lower level managers, which is quite difficult to find.

    Now that they have switched your company over to Windows, you are now a liability. You are paid for your technical expertise, which is no longer needed. If you drag your feet and show that you are not proficient in Windows as well, you become an even bigger liability. At some point, they will ask themselves if it's worth paying to train a UNIX sysadmin to work with the Windows system, especially when they apparently don't want to. It would be cheaper and easier for them to hire Windows sysadmins, and you would probably be happier continuing your work with UNIX elsewhere. At least, that's how they'll justify your firing.

    If they've already switched another shop over and experienced these problems, then you may already have a target on your head. Just be thankful that it's fairly hard to fire employees and hire new ones in their place. So, they may just be waiting for you to trip up and show your incompetence and unwillingness to change as a reason for your dismissal.

    If you like, after you've adapted to the transition, you can write a document that shows the impact cost of switching over, and possibly this may sway their decisions the next time they take over a UNIX shop. If you want your desktop switched back to UNIX, you're also going to have to show that the switch back over to UNIX isn't going to cost them any money now (new hardware and software) or the future (do your own tech support) AND how it will directly benefit the company as a whole -- this means "how will it make us money" in business talk. Remember that everything in business ultimately boils down to cost and profit.

    Best of luck.

    --
    -------------------------------------------------- $665.95 -- retail price of the beast.
  18. Gotta be said... by p4ul13 · · Score: 3, Funny
    You're asking for advice on /. as to how to switch from Linux to MS Windows?

    All together now:
    You're new around here aren't you?

    =)

    --
    Paul Lenhart writes words!
  19. Kinda talked yourself into a corner by Jerf · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Based on the criteria as given, you've kind of talked yourself into a corner. If you're not allowed to install "random software", then most of the people here recommending various random software packages aren't going to help here. If you're thinking that you're not going to get any software support, then you're hosed; twiddling preferences in Windows just isn't going to do anything.

    What I would recommend is trying to dig deeper. Why aren't you being allowed to use your preferred environments? Do they need you to run on Outlook? If so, rather then buying everybody a full Office load + all the other Windows crap, buy everybody a copy of Ximian Connector and let everyone run Evolution. If it's Office compatibility, why don't you examine the documents the company is generating and see if they're doing crazy stuff with VBA and ActiveX, or if OpenOffice can cut it. If they want compatibility with other developers, see to what degree they are talking about.

    You need to talk their language, which is of course money, and you've got at least a certain degree of leverage in the fact that the company is going to have to buy a lot of software that will not be free. Ximian + OpenOffice is cheaper then a full Windows+Office+Support suite. Most free software is much cheaper and just fine.

    Moreover, once you find out why you're making the change, you can probably quantify the hidden costs of the transition... and potentially strategies to defray it, perhaps convincing them to purchase (or, in the case of things like Cygwin, allow) the other software. Personally, for instance, being stuck in the sorry excuse for a Windows desktop I'd lose 10% or 20% productivity off the top, because I've become very proficient with multiple desktops being a single keystroke away. (Yes, there is a Powertool that does this but it doesn't match my usage patterns; I want a "move right" key, not just a "Move to Desktop 2".)

    You may find they have legitimate reasons, or you may find that they have delusions. ("We develop in Windows so we want you to apply your Perl skills to our VBA apps."... yeah...) Either way, you'll be better off to talk turkey with them if you get more info. Assuming they've got good reasons, you'll know where to focus on for the software you want to ask for.

    Now, please read the following carefully so you know what I'm saying: If you're stonewalled and if you can simply not get more information of this nature, then it is time to start polishing the resume and looking for a new job unless there is some compelling reason not to. Not because they're forcing you to Windows, per se, which with support could eventually be livable (and a job's a job, right?), but because this is a clear and unambiguous sign that they are completely unwilling to support their developers and deal with them as professionals, rather then children who need to be protected from themselves. Now, if you're OK with being treated as children, that's OK, but I'd be surprised; Unix doesn't encourage that attitude. I am not saying that being forced to Windows is a reason to think seriously about leaving; I am saying to think seriously about leaving if the new company doesn't understand how to best utilize developers (which happens to be the same as keeping them happy, for the most part), and to use this issue as a touchstone. If you can't get this basic information at this stage, it's not going to get better, and it's extremely likely to get worse.

  20. Try this by $exyNerdie · · Score: 3, Funny


    We've all got years of experience on Linux but running Windows day to day is a big challenge

    I got a sweet deal for you. My 68 year old grandma has been using Windows XP for a while and she is pretty good at it. She might give you many useful tips and tricks because when she started a year ago on computers, it took her a long 1 week to get comfortable on Windows XP. Anyway, if you want to find out how she did it, just call her (303-607-7527). She loves to talk to people. She is home all day bored. Caveat: She is in Denver and her number might be long distance for you and once she gets started talking, there is no stopping her!

  21. Acclimatisation by kinnell · · Score: 3, Funny

    You could start to acclimatise your coworkers by walking around pulling out they're power cords at random intervals while they're trying to do important work. That way when windows is rolled out, they'll appreciate the helpful blue message that tells them they're fscked, rather than just a blank screen.

    --
    If I seem short sighted, it is because I stand on the shoulders of midgets