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Micro ATX and Linux?
Chasuk asks: "I work at a large computer retailer in a college town, and I've finally convinced the powers-that-be to sell PCs with Linux pre-installed. The catch is, it will only be installed on Micro ATX machines, which require half-height everything, and we can't find a source of half-height Linux compatible PCI modems. Even those universal, generic half-height replacement hangers/brackets would be acceptable, but I can't find those, either. Can anyone on Slashdot help? "
uh, maybe use external modems? what the hell do they need modems for on a college campus anyway?
-73, de n1ywb
www.n1ywb.com
Just on a whim I did some searching to find an internal PCI modem for my PC. What I saw was rather dismaying. Very few PCI modems aren't Winmodems nowadays, and the ones that aren't are upwards of $50. Not the kind of price you want to add to a pre-built machine.
Band Saw
Ha, ha! Nobody ever says Italy.
external USB modems?
Also I once saw a thing that converts a PCI slot on a desktop machine into a PCMCIA slot. You could get a half-height one of those and put a laptop modem in it.
Or just use micro-atx motherboards that have builtin modems.
The GeekNights podcast is going strong. Listen!
Micro ATX does not require everything to be half-height. That may be the case (pun not intended) with some Mini-ITX cases, but there are quite a few Micro ATX small tower cases that support full-height, half-length PCI and AGP cards, smaller ATX power supplies and standard drives (be it 5.25" or 3.5").
The main difference between standard ATX and Micro ATX is the "length" of the board, which determines the number of slots, usually PCI. ATX gives you a maximum of 7 slots to occupy (be it 0-1 AGP + 1-6 PCI) where as Micro ATX can have at most 3 slots to occupy. Check out formfactors.org for more information.
Why does it have to be installed on Micro ATX? I personally dont see you selling a lot of these, since (even if you dont want to hear this) the average Joe User is not going to be very receptive to a machine with Linux pre-installed. Make a cheap EXPANDABLE machine with Linux pre-installed, and you are going to appeal to a much larger base of users.
My user number is prime. Is yours?
Heck, my Coolermaster 620 case takes a micro-ATX motherboard but has 4 regular full height slots in the back. Of course, it's also the size of a full 4U size desktop case so I'm not sure why it only takes a micro-ATX board. :-)
Seriously, external serial modems are ALWAYS Linux compatible, easier to deal with, and usually of high quality.
Lex orandi, lex credendi.
I work at a large computer retailer in a college town, and I've finally convinced the powers-that-be to sell PCs with Linux pre-installed. The catch is, it will only be installed on Micro ATX machines, which require half-height everything, and we can't find a source of half-height Linux compatible PCI modems.
This sounds like a Dilbert comic. Marketing getting way ahead of research/development.
On a related note, I've convinced my local pizza joint to buy pizza boxes from me that keep the pie warm. I just have to invent it.
Goto http://linmodems.org/ and find a "Winmodem" that meets your specs.
at http://start.at/modem lists severak Taicom low profile PCI modems as "Winmodem chipset with Linux driver that must be purchased. "
There are lots of real PCMCIA modems too, so the PCMCIA adapter would work too.
Assembly is the reverse of disassembly.
This will be even less expensive than getting "real" modems, and will make your boss smile... It'll make some of the purchasers curse like sailors, but hey...
You've certainly already hit this: http://froogle.google.com/froogle?q=half+height+in ternal+modem.
The second modem that comes up claims to have a 16550/A compatible UART. Doesn't that mean it's not a Win Modem? I'm afraid I haven't used a modem in a long, long time, though -- I don't have a clue how you tell the difference between a WinModem and one with a built-in serial port.
Actually, aren't there Linux drivers for the more popular WinModems yet? Maybe unlike nVidia graphic cards, there isn't much geek market for low priced linux modems. Maybe the modem manufacturers know something you don't -- maybe anyone who uses Linux is going to be willing to pay extra for a decent external modem anyhow, since in general a Linux machine generally ends up costing more than a Windows machine anyhow.
Slashdot is jumping the shark. I'm just driving the boat.
Those cases remind me of the days where people had desktop AT cases on their desks.
It's more important to have an option of buying a box without any operating system pre-loaded and offer a discount to do so. i.e.
- Windows XP Home
- Windows XP Pro
- Linux (RedHat Whatever)
- None -- THIS IS WHAT WE NEED!!!
I doubt many average computer users would know what to do with Linux if they got it. I also doubt many of those who want it want it preloaded with whatever distribution you decide to load.
Offer some REAL modems that don't require software to run. i.e. a modem with an actual chip that does the work!
The only reason WinModems are successful is because they work (on Windows) and they cost slightly less. This is no big deal for a few machines, but it really adds up when you sell hundreds of thousands as DELL does monthly.
With broadband, modems are becoming more and more obsolete anyway. Sure there are many who still use them but not nearly as many as there once were. I personally haven't used a modem in years... I honestly haven't needed to.
What is really driving Broadband among those who would not have used it before is VPN and companies who are allowing their employee's to VPN into the network. I would say that most of the corporate users who don't have a computer at home except for their work laptop, are actually buying cable and DSL connections just so they can work at home.
It was just rolled out where I work recently, and there have been hundreds of users all getting signed up for broadband services. More and more they hear by word of mouth from coworkers on how great it is and they call us to get it setup. Most of them don't own a personal computer, they use only their work computer. Those that do own computers have very old computers. Few have up-to-date computers and few have broadband but tell them they can work at home just about as fast as it is in the office (faster for some WAN users) and they buy it on the spot!
Add wireless into the mix, i.e. they can work on a comfortable couch without wires and keep a broadband connection to work going and they freak out and want to do it right away!
Corporate America will soon be accelerating Work At Home as soon as the numbers of employee's able to do it reaches critical mass. They can save a fortune on office space. Heck, I could be doing my job from home if they would just get me a VoIP phone that connects to the company PBX.
Funniest post all day
> it's also the size of a full 4U size desktop case so I'm not sure why it only takes a micro-ATX board
Just plain bad design. Get an Antec Overture instead - far more expandable.
You know those little hand warmers... expose them to air and they heat up to about 120F. If you buy them in bulk, or make your own i'm sure it's relatively cheap. Just put an assload (tm) of them in some kind of chamber under the pie. Have some kind of cellophane that when removed, heats up the carbon stuff, and you have a hot piebox!
-Tim
Some people may not know how to cut and paste.
And that slashspace may confuse others, too.
[/sarcasm]
Fellowship 9/11
NO seriously, they have several mini itx motherboards, cases, sound cards, etc, and usually if you buy a harddrive and some other components, you can get a copy of Lindows / Lin---s included for free. I am looking into this to save some space on my desktop. In fact here is one example http://www.idotpc.com/TheStore/Desktop/806Spec.asp ?Product.id=806&Cate.id=19
I have not tried them personally though.
Only 'flamers' flame!
Does slashdot hate my posts?
I too would expect any modem with a UART to be a hardware modem. But according to the manufacturer it's not. On that page, they call it a "software modem" which generally means winmodem.
.sig: file not found
Title says it all ;)
When I was young, I had to rub sticks together to compute.
See the following link for the mwave modem in IBM thinkpads. Also for the T23
Or get an Athenatech A-100-SC Case. They are only around $45, have a 200 watt PSU, have 1 external 5.25", 1 external 3.5", and 2 internal 3.5" spaces all in a 5.75" X 13.5" X 14.5" deep case. Athenatech A-100-SC. Very quiet case too. Add to that a PC Chips Pro 2000+ powered, M810DLU for around $75. Motherboard. Then add a CDRW/DVD, HDD, RAM, keyboard, mouse, floppy and last but not least, Linux of your favorite distro. Works well with White Box Linux. :)
why not external?
... I like more LEDs visible at night, so there are tradeoffs), but an external can often be had cheaper than internal (hardware) modems.
:)
Yes, it's a bit uglier (depending on your aesthetics
If you're in the U.S.: $50 gets you a unlabeled / house-brand CompUSA serial external modem, which works fine with Linux. And by mail-order, I've seen Elsa external modems which I know to work fine with Linux from friends who have and use them at around $30.
I dunno wholesale prices on modems, but I bet you'd be very lucky to find an internal hardware modem + adapter for less than $30. And if you *do*, then you've taken up a precious PCI slot
timothy
jrnl: http://tinyurl.com/c2l8yr / foes: http://tinyurl.com/ckjno5
Wardialing is still alive and well. You should try it some time before it is eventually phased out into the rubbish bin of hacker history.
there are places that make em..
http://www.gompf.com/brackets.htm
http://www.directron.com/fax-modems.html they are cheap so get a couple and try them..
It's more important to have an option of buying a box without any operating system pre-loaded and offer a discount to do so.
I thought that the publisher of a major proprietary PC operating system refused to sell OEM licenses to PC vendors that shipped machines without any OS, for the purported purpose of preventing widespread crime on the high seas. Dell worked around this by offering FreeDOS, a very minimalistic Free operating system.
With broadband, modems are becoming more and more obsolete anyway.
Two problems: 1. Even the cheapest residential broadband costs $240/year extra versus, say, NetZero dial-up. 2. Many broadband subscribers run their broadband through a WiFi router, and many WiFi cards are actually WinWiFi cards.
And if you *do*, then you've taken up a precious PCI slot
Which would have to be filled with a serial port card in the newer so-called "legacy free" machines. So are there any half-height PCI serial port cards? Or do the free operating systems' PPP stacks work with serial-to-USB adapters? And what about the extra wall wart that an external modem needs for its power?
then my advice isn't worth much :)
...
...). And the annoyance comes in three parts: 1) an extra cord. No way around that. 2) using an outlet at all and 3) using an outlet in an annoying fashion, blocking spaces in a powerstrip, or refusing to stay in a wall outlet. I recently bought from the Seattle Fry's a couple of tiny (12") extension cords similar to this (can't find the exact item on Fry's website), and they also had a version for a dollar or so more that had a passthrough power outlet. So, it's possible for a couple of bucks to a) not lose a power outlet spot and b) turn the wallwart power supply into the much-better cordlump power supply.
However, a lot of newish micromachines still have serial ports, like the (sorry, brand forgotten) Mini-ITX shoebox style one next to me. The serial port refuses to die peacefully!
I have heard that USB Serial adapters work well for other people in connecting to various devices, dunno about modems specifically though, having never done this.
With no serial port, there's at least one other situation where an external serial modem might still be a good idea -- if you hook a cheap wireless base-station up to the modem and connect to it wirelessly via a (PCI, USB, PCMCIA, USDA, LSD) 802.11 card. (Though the prices and model names may be way out-dated, I described my reasoning in doing this on a low-frills webpage of mine.)
Too bad my prediction of cheap combo boxes from Linksys and similar companies was totally wrong
Wallwarts are annoying, it's true, but there are worse things (like having no modem connectivity when you want some
timothy
jrnl: http://tinyurl.com/c2l8yr / foes: http://tinyurl.com/ckjno5
1. Better diagnostics of any problems, with a nice, meaningful array of LEDs, which you get on most excternal modems.
2. Lower risk of destruction of the PC due to lightning-induced transients. The high-current pulses are likely to remain outside the PC casing and not be coupled to signal tracks on the motherboard. An internal modem invariably lets a lot of energy loose inside the case, it has to go somewhere (as well as frying the modem, but that is more expendable than the motherboard), and in fact it is radiated and picked up on every signal track. If it gets substantially above your logic supply (3.3V for example) or below ground, bang goes a large chipset, and the cost of repair will be higher than a new motherboard. It might well take out your disk drive, graphics card, etc as well. Many unexplained hardware failures are in fact due to induced lightning transients.
3. You will definitely not get a Winmoden, which are useless even in Windows. Your external modem will really be a full modem, with its own DSP etc, so it will not bog down your processor, cause instability, or simply not work.
4. Much easier to attach another PC temporarily for whatever reason, everything has a serial port and supports drivers for standard modems. You can also run any OS, even MessyDOS, and still use the modem.
5. Less heat in the small case, the modem's several watts will be dissipated externally, which will help keep temperatures down and so get longer life.
I do not advise USB modems, they cause excessive CPU overhead, a simple serial port is the best option.
I've just shipped an embedded product based around Linux where we had exactly this problem. In the process of development I've tested a lot of winmodems under Linux, our main problem has been consistency of supply in Europe. The really good drivers are the open source Lucent driver, the SmartLink driver and Linuxant's closed source Conexant driver. It pains me to say it, but our best available choice was to license the driver from Linuxant. Even factoring in the cost of the driver, the modems were still cheaper and more solidly available than the Smartlink based winmodens, and in tests the performance of the Linuxant driver was excellent. I dont know what the market is like in the US, but in the winmodem market in Europe almost all readily available ( in serious amounts - 1000+ units ) are Conexant based. If you're selling more than a few hundred units, I would recommend biting the bullet and buying in the Linuxant driver. To give you an idea, the Smartlink modems were working out around $18 a unit, while a Conexant based winmodem we could normally pick up for around $3 ( if you were buying a couple of hundred at a time ). Add in a few bucks for the driver and you're still better off than buying a card with an open source driver. Unfortunately that's the reality at the minute with manufacturing Linux based products - particularly when you are dealing with difficult hardware sectors like winmodems.
Try Tigerdirect.com $20
Seriously this should be an external option. It is useless for more and more people - a WiFi card may be a much better idea as standard equipment.
realkiwi
When I worked for an ISP [4+ years ago], we saw two major types of winmodems.
The Lucent ones, which lacked flash, relied upon the system for its initial setup information. The Rockwell ones, relied on the system for just about everything, and would drive the load up on your system.
Of course, there were some growing pains with the Lucent ones, but after a few revisions, the Lucent LTWinmodems didn't suck... At least for windows users. And there are some Linux drives out there for them. The Rockwell HCF, however, were always crap in the time I was dealing with them, and I doubt they've gotten much better.
But most people out there can't justify the expense of a Courier, or even a Sportster these days.
Modemsite (formerly "v.90 = v.Unreliable"), has small modems based on the Lucent chipset for $20 each. I have no experience with purchasing from the guy, but his website was a godsend in the days of that whole 'x2/kFlex/kFlex/v.90' nightmare.
He also links to LinModems which may have some useful info.
Build it, and they will come^Hplain.