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Greek Anti-Gaming Laws Still Being Enforced

Posted by simoniker on from the spartan-respect-for-gamers dept.

Gamaroo writes "An AFP report on Yahoo indicates that innocent Internet and gaming cafes in Greece are still being raided by police, despite the laws being ruled unconstitutional by the supreme court of the land. From the article: 'In a desperate attempt to clamp down on out-of-control illegal gambling, Greek parliament passed in 2002 a law that summarily banned all public gaming conducted by electronic and mechanical means. Said one man, 'They treat us like criminals,' said Aris Assimakopoulos, a 28-year old computer specialist who runs an internet cafe in downtown Athens. Policemen stormed Assimakopoulos' enterprise twice in January, threw out all clients, confiscated 50 PCs and arrested an employee.'"

48 comments

  1. That's a shame by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    No public gaming, how are you supposed to have any fun anymore? If governments have to resort to prohibiting public gaming, something in the world has gone drastically wrong!

    1. Re:That's a shame by Kevin143 · · Score: 1

      It's just ridiculous. I can't understand what the law is possibly trying to accomplish.

    2. Re:That's a shame by OgdEnigmaX · · Score: 3, Insightful
      RTFP:
      From the article: 'In a desperate attempt to clamp down on out-of-control illegal gambling, Greek parliament passed in 2002 a law that summarily banned all public gaming conducted by electronic and mechanical means.
    3. Re:That's a shame by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It's not what they are trying to accomplish that is the problem, it's the means by which they are doing it. Most politicians, whether Greek or otherwise, seem to be completely inept when it comes to anything having to do with technology. But rather than spend time and money researching the problems to find real solutions, they just throw together ham-fisted laws like these to get the job done as quick as possible.

    4. Re:That's a shame by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      It's just ridiculous. I can't understand what the law is possibly trying to accomplish.

      It's simple.
      1. Pass laws to prevent people playing computer games.
      2. Watch as the rest of the worlds productivity drops due to computer game addiction.
      3. ????
      4. Profit.

  2. Gee! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

    Next thing you know, they'll be outlawing Greek sex...

  3. Legalized Stealing? by Locky · · Score: 4, Funny

    ' "These guys earn so much, that even when police catch them and confiscate their PCs, they can pay the fines and buy new material with just a single day's proceedings," Gusakis added.'

    Wow, let the raids continue! Let justice ring clear! So long as they can afford it, its perfectly ok to steal computers?! Off to Walmart I go!

    1. Re:Legalized Stealing? by Cosmik · · Score: 1

      Pick me up a couple of stereos and tvs, will ya? I'll be busy at the car dealership down the road.

  4. Real good logic there.... by MMaestro · · Score: 5, Insightful
    "The law is the law and we have to enforce it, even if it prevents us from pursuing our real aim, which is the fight against illegal gambling," an official at the Athens gaming police told AFP.

    So the police are willing to spend thousands of dollars performing "raids" on public cybercafes just because their out in the open and obvious. Real smart there.

    This is unlawful but, couldn't the police turn a blind eye on these cybercafes (the law abiding ones of course) and instead focus on the ones that promote/harbor/create/encourage illegal online gambling?

    "These guys earn so much, that even when police catch them and confiscate their PCs, they can pay the fines and buy new material with just a single day's proceedings," Gusakis added.

    Gee maybe its because they have to increase prices in order to replace the hardware you guys keep destroying? If I was running a car dealership and my cars kept getting confiscated and destroyed by the police, don't you think my prices would have to be pretty high?

    1. Re:Real good logic there.... by Fiz+Ocelot · · Score: 1

      Posing as clients, we ascertained that in 49 out of the 70 PCs installed, prohibited video games were being played such as 'rally', 'football' and 'war games'," said the policeman leading the raid in his written deposition. What do these have to do with illegal gambling? This just doesn't make sence.

    2. Re:Real good logic there.... by YrWrstNtmr · · Score: 3, Insightful

      This is unlawful but, couldn't the police turn a blind eye on these cybercafes (the law abiding ones of course) and instead focus on the ones that promote/harbor/create/encourage illegal online gambling?

      As you say, this is unlawful. The police shouldn't choose which laws they enforce.

      Get the courts to overturn it, and pass laws concentrating on the actual gambling.

    3. Re:Real good logic there.... by MMaestro · · Score: 4, Informative
      From the parent post : Get the courts to overturn it, and pass laws concentrating on the actual gambling.

      From the news report : A draconian computer gaming ban enacted two years ago is still alive and kicking in Greece, despite a string of court decisions throwing it out as unconstitutional, the country's internet cafe owners complain.

      As you can see, there ARE court decisions overruling the laws and letting the cybercafe owners get away with this. In the real world, however, this means still means squat in light of the fact that all your computer hardware (which is 99.9% of a cybercafe's investment) is destroyed from police confiscation, not to mention uncounted losses in profit. Until the laws fully get taken down, the cybercafe owners are gonna get screwed even if they get off the hook.

    4. Re:Real good logic there.... by BobTheLawyer · · Score: 1

      You're assuming Greece's constitution works like the US, and courts can strike out laws that are unconstitutional. This is most unlikely to be the case.

    5. Re:Real good logic there.... by Ayaress · · Score: 1

      Actually, it IS the case (Doesn't work the same way, but the high courts have the same power). In fact, they HAVE thrown out the law. The police can't enforce a law that doesn't exist anymore.

    6. Re:Real good logic there.... by tbannist · · Score: 1

      I agree with you and I don't. In an ideal world the police would enforce all the laws, but in the real world they definitely should not.

      I would be willing to bet you that there are at least a few laws that are not being enforced where you live and that you would rather have it that way.

      It sucks, but because most politicians seem to be such schmucks that they'll write laws that turn everyone into criminals and pass them without thinking about the consequences, the police do need to choose what to enforce and what not to enforce.

      --
      Fanatically anti-fanatical
    7. Re:Real good logic there.... by YrWrstNtmr · · Score: 1

      Police choosing which laws to enforce or not is but one small step from the police enacting their own laws.

      "we don't like this law so we're not going to do anything about it" is very close to "well, there's no real law against it, but we don't like it so we'll bust him anyway."

      The police should not have that much power. If the laws have been actually overturned, and the police are still busting these guys, the courts should slap the police down hard.

      That's not saying the police don't turn a blind eye to some things in the RealWorld. But it can quite easily turn ugly, if you give them enough rope.

  5. Define Game? by Stray7Xi · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Game is such a vague word, because many innocent programs can be treated as a game.

    Just try to find a cell phone that DOESN'T have games... that Ipod, oh that's illegal. Typing Tutor programs for schools, they probably contain games too... Oh and I doubt they intended to ban internet chess.

    Then there's the borderline games. Can online paint programs be a game? MUDs are games, but are MUSH'es? What about chat rooms that people play AD&D in... When google had its online coding competition, does that make coding a game?

    It even bans mechanical games... no pinball, no foosball, no airhockey. Is bowling a mechanical game? Hell there's mechanical games in summer olympics... skeet shooting, cycling and archery should all be canceled, arrest the competitors...

    The question I have is why is Greece so different about gambling problems that they had it going underground? I understand they'd have video games hacked to be turned into gambling, but why isn't that a big problem in other countries? It seems to me that if people wanted to gamble they could travel to neighboring countries, Greece is in EU right?

    1. Re:Define Game? by DigiShaman · · Score: 1

      A game is basically an activity in which you follow a set of rules in order to reach a goal. While at the same time achieving satisfaction in the process.

      --
      Life is not for the lazy.
    2. Re:Define Game? by Aelfy · · Score: 3, Interesting

      why is Greece so different about gambling problems that they had it going underground?
      Easy, one word:
      "Religion"

      The Greek Orthodox church just about runs the country, as no politician can survive disagreeing with a church that is supported by 98% of the population. There is no seperation of church and state, and the clergy are paid wages by the state.

      An example of the church power: A few years ago, *millions* of Greeks protested in Athens against the introduction of barcodes because of the 6,6,6 thing, and the church said to protest. In this political farce its not hard to see how bizarre illogical laws get passed.

    3. Re:Define Game? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Oh, the greeks are congenitally bound to gamble, just as the irish are to drink and the jews are to loan-shark.

      Haven't you ever heard of Nick the Greek?

      *clicks anonymous*

    4. Re:Define Game? by ooby · · Score: 1

      Don't forget Electronic Battleship, and Operation, or even Dream Phone.

    5. Re:Define Game? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That sounds a lot like dating.

    6. Re:Define Game? by arcanumas · · Score: 1
      While it is true that the church is powerfull in my country, i fail to understand how you associate religion with banning gambling.

      This is a purely political decision with no church intervention.
      I don't know if you are Greek or have a good knowledge of what happened here but i am confident that church has nothing to do with banning gambling , except saying "we agree".
      I mean, even the political parties that support the church get so few votes that are not even in the parliament. So "running the country"? absolutely not!
      In fact, regarding the incident of the protests, there were no millions (whenever someone says *millions* it automatically means, i can't count and it seems like millions to me) *maybe* the singatures that the curch collected could have been millions but i HIGHLY doubt it since greece's total population is 10 million and the 'hardcore' religious people who would sign it are actually very few. (though, those who agree are much more).
      Oh, and did i mention that it has NOTHING to do with 666 and any other nonsense? It was about the new ID's that would not mention the religion. (as they did when i got mine). Many greeks ,unfortunately , believe that they should have their religion written in their ID's. I mean, get your facts straight man! 666!? For goodness sake!

      As for the non-existent separation of church and state i have to agree that it is a BIG problem that is not even mentioned here ( in greece) by most people. There IS , however, an explanation.
      Greece is populated by a vast majority (something like 98%) by Greeks. The church played a MAJOR role in the greek revolution from the Ottoman occupation, (actually the low ranking priests did. The high priests condemned the revolution) and even the greek flag has the sign of the cross. Religion is deeply rooted in our folk tradition also, so when you live in a country where a single religion is everywhere, it becomes natural to you that this is the way it is supposed to be. This is obviously wrong but it happens nontheless.

      --
      Slashdot Sig. version 0.1alpha. Use at your own risk.
  6. Billy Madison would say... by BTWR · · Score: 2, Funny

    Billy Madison would say...

    Greeks? More like... Geeks!

  7. Context of Quote by Doobian+Coedifier · · Score: 3, Informative
    "Greece is full of phony internet cafes, opened by operators of banned gambling halls," Yiannis Gousakis, another internet cafe owner, told AFP.

    "These guys earn so much, that even when police catch them and confiscate their PCs, they can pay the fines and buy new material with just a single day's proceedings," Gusakis added.


    He is talking about people who run illegal computerized gambling, which is what the law targeted in the first place.
  8. An example of gov't efficiency? by MachDelta · · Score: 5, Funny

    Um... excuse me if this is a stupid question... but if courts across the land, including the supreme-motherfucking-court of your country rule a law as being "unconstitutional"... then how in the hell could it possibly remain in effect!?

    Seems stupid. But maybe I just don't understand their laws. It is, after all, all greek to me! *Rimshot*.
    *Ducks and runs*

    1. Re:An example of gov't efficiency? by Naffer · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Greece isn't America remember?
      On that same note though, it's not like everyone immediatly listens to the supreme court even in the United States. I'd bet that now that their judicial system has declared the law unconsitutional, it'll take a lawsuit against the Greek government to force them to stop enforcing the law.

  9. two people so far have taken it out of context by ReverendBobtheJunkie · · Score: 5, Informative

    The quote taken out of context:
    "These guys earn so much, that even when police catch them and confiscate their PCs, they can pay the fines and buy new material with just a single day's proceedings," Gusakis added.

    This particular person, a cafe' owner, was talking about the illegal cafe's that are the REAL target of the police raids; the ones doing the illegal gambling, etc.; as evidencied when the entire discussion is re-read:

    "Rather than combatting gambling, the law just seems to open the door to abuse of legitimate internet cafe owners. "Greece is full of phony internet cafes, opened by operators of banned gambling halls," Yiannis Gousakis, another internet cafe owner, told AFP.

    "These guys earn so much, that even when police catch them and confiscate their PCs, they can pay the fines and buy new material with just a single day's proceedings," Gusakis added. "

    I'm amazed that TWO slashdotters read what they wanted into this in less than 16 replies. Shame, shame, shame...

    Maybe we could lend those poor cafe' owners some American lawyers; I'm sure a few successful lawsuits (or one successful and sufficiently giant class-action lawsuit) would get that law changed pretty darned fast.

    --
    I am Jack's Savage Beats.
  10. Go to the European Union. by irokitt · · Score: 1

    That's what it's there for, right? A centralized court? That, to me, is a product of the fact that the only way to stop this is to go beyond the Greek government. They've been trying that for years now and this saga still continues.
    I don't live in Europe, so if anybody who does reads this, enlighten me as to how overturning the law could be pursued from that angle.

    --
    If my answers frighten you, stop asking scary questions.
  11. Ah, classic games... by lightspawn · · Score: 2, Funny

    Posing as clients, we ascertained that in 49 out of the 70 PCs installed, prohibited video games were being played such as 'rally', 'football' and 'war games'

    The only game I know of titled simply 'Football' was for the Atari VCS2600.

    "war games" is, of course, a Colecovision title.

    And "Rally" really takes us back - it seems to be an arcade pong clone, circa 1983.

  12. The most annoying thing by Dark+Paladin · · Score: 4, Insightful

    You have the Greek supreme court who have ruled the law unconstitutional - yet the Athens police are still enforcing a law that they know will be aquitted. The article even mentions that the cases are all being aquitted, but still the police keep charging people with it at a waste of taxpayer money.

    It makes you wonder what the real incentive of the Athens police is. Are they trying to put the Internet Cafes out of business? From their actions, it certainly sounds like it, and if makes you wonder if that's their central aim.

    After all, if the legitimate gamers are out, then the only business in town will be illegal gaming.

    --
    52 Weeks, 52 Religions with John Hummel
    1. Re:The most annoying thing by GuyWithLag · · Score: 2, Informative

      IANAGL, but I have a friend whou is. You have to understand that precedent in court does not count as much here in Greece as in the US. This has good and bad side-effects: the good is that a judge's vedrict is not a law (and really, if it is, how do you cancel it?), and the bad is that bad laws have to get all the way to the lawmakers to get cancelled or amended, which takes time.

      And don't get me started on the police, they're a joke...

    2. Re:The most annoying thing by Dark+Paladin · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Interesting system. Granted, I can see the advantages as you mention, but it certainly seems that one annoying part is that you could have an inconsistent set of intepretations of the law from judge to judge.

      Thanks for letting me know - it does clear up some things about why the Greek police were still acting this way.

      --
      52 Weeks, 52 Religions with John Hummel
    3. Re:The most annoying thing by notsoclever · · Score: 1
      the good is that a judge's vedrict is not a law (and really, if it is, how do you cancel it?)
      In America, the precedents set by judges don't create laws, but create interpretations of existing laws for new situations. Killing the law makes the precedent no longer valid for the basis of a judgement, and precedents aren't strongly-binding, they're just a guideline.

      If a judge disagrees with a precedent, they don't necessarily have to follow it.

      --
      There are 10 kinds of people: ones who understand ternary, ones who don't, and ones who think this joke is about binary
    4. Re:The most annoying thing by arcanumas · · Score: 1
      As a Greek i can tell you this:
      The Greek police is an sanctuary for those who early in life realize they have no future and no skills. They do everything in their power to join the police.
      I am amazed that these people manage to avoid shooting themselves with their guns. (good traing i suppose). So trying to understand what motivates them to raid Internet Caffes would be asking too much :)

      But seriously, when the system is structured in shuch a way that even a complete idiot has can rise in the chain of command, such things are bound to happen.
      We Greeks have given up on trying to explain things for the sake of our mental health. Getting into the minds of idiots is a dangerous thing after all.

      --
      Slashdot Sig. version 0.1alpha. Use at your own risk.
  13. Its Greece.... by wolf- · · Score: 2, Insightful

    In Greece you need to grease some palms to get anything done, or to keep from being done.

    The entire culture is based upon graft.

    From the street cops to the border guards.

    --
    ----- LoboSoft specializes in Digital Language Lab
  14. It's like they say... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "After shaking hands with a Greek, count your fingers."

  15. No, an example of a different government by jgardn · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I have no idea how the Greek government works. However, it sounds like the courts don't carry nearly as much power as they do in the states.

    It could be that courts aren't allowed to overturn laws. It could also be that the enforcement arm of the government is run at a local level, and not subject to the national government.

    I won't comment on the Greek system, because I do no know it. But I certainly won't form an opinion based on our country's heritage and traditions.

    Now, if only we had more governors and presidents who would openly flaunt the will of activist judges, willing to put their job on the line if it ever comes to impeachment, then we might have a more cautious and obedient justice branch.

    --
    The radical sect of Islam would either see you dead or "reverted" to Islam.
    1. Re:No, an example of a different government by arcanumas · · Score: 1

      Actually courts DO have the power to find laws unconstitutional.
      I would have to say that this is yet another typical example of Greek stupidity at it's finest. Though my country has some really great laws (well, excepting this one :) ), it is the 'upholding them' part that is problematic.
      Most laws exist but are not enforced by the police. Sometimes there are idiotic mix-ups, and beurocratic fuck-ups. I can't say i have understood what is the case here (noone ever does in this country), but from what i read in the papers myself, the law has been rectified but there is a city (Larissa) that the police department there seems to live in it's own world.

      --
      Slashdot Sig. version 0.1alpha. Use at your own risk.
    2. Re:No, an example of a different government by jgardn · · Score: 1

      I would hold onto your democracy or republic or whatever you got. We in America live under a dictatorship. Unelected judges determine what I can or cannot buy in the store. They determine what I can wear, say, eat or drink. They punish me for perfectly legal things, and let criminals walk free.

      If your elected officials thwart the will of the people, you can always elect new ones. We have made it too difficult to remove judges, and so now they run our country.

      --
      The radical sect of Islam would either see you dead or "reverted" to Islam.
  16. Geek anti gaming laws? by euxneks · · Score: 1

    What the heck? I can't play games if I'm a geek no-... oh.. time for bed....

    --
    in girum imus nocte et consumimur igni
  17. A question by danila · · Score: 1

    If you had the power to storm into the police department, line up the policemen who raided the Internet cafes and shoot them for this crap, would you? I know I would.

    The police in a modern society, like all other branches of the government should above all be accountable to people. People are the primary source of power in any democratic country. This cross between the nanny-state and the police-state is ugly and should have been done away with long ago.

    --
    Future Wiki -- If you don't think about the future, you cannot have one.
  18. A Proverb for Slashdot by WormholeFiend · · Score: 1

    Beware of Geeks bearing .gif's

  19. Hey, Some good may come out of this lame law yet! by cmdrwhitewolf · · Score: 1

    Perhaps they'll arrest Bush the next time he visits for the constant game of "Terrorist bingo" that's going on in his head...

    --
    [Now, I'm off to lift my le... Um, visit... at another place.]