Motorola Readies Music-oriented Linux Mobile Phone

An anonymous reader writes "Motorola has announced several new multimedia-enabled mobile phones supporting music and video playback, including one new device based on embedded Linux, according to LinuxDevices.com. The Linux-based Motorola E680 could see US distribution, making it the first of Motorola's Linux-based mobile phones available outside the far East. The E680 will include multimedia playback software supporting a variety of formats, including MP3 audio, MPEG4 video, and RealPlayer multimedia content." The article notes: "Motorola's previous Linux-based phones have been based on MontaVista Linux, and have used the Qt/Embedded graphical application framework."

Comments

Replacement for iPod?

[ValourX]

Maybe this phone can replace the iPod, being that you can receive phone calls on it as well. I wonder how many songs it can hold and what the interface is like for playing music?

If I'm going to spend hundreds of dollars on a little electronic gadget, I'd like it to do more than just play MP3s. This device might get me to spend that kind of money... and I don't have to be embarrased by an Apple logo on it.

-Jem

Re:Replacement for iPod?

[Channard]

If I'm going to spend hundreds of dollars on a little electronic gadget, I'd like it to do more than just play MP3s. This device might get me to spend that kind of money... and I don't have to be embarrased by an Apple logo on it.

But not least of all, it'll presumably have a battery you can actually replace yourself.

Re:Replacement for iPod?

[evilviper]

I wonder how many songs it can hold

As many as you can fit onto a SD card... No built-in hard drive, so it's not much of a challenger for the iPod.

Re:Replacement for iPod?

[jetfuel]

Apple will replace your iPod battery for free if it's under warranty. If not they charge $99. If you want to install it yourself, you can buy one and do so.

Re:Replacement for iPod?

[Shisha]

I doubt if this will replace iPod, but I'm definitely looking forward to checking this little toy out. I was eligible for a free phone upgrade almost a year ago, but back then none of the devices really caught my attention and my old Sony CMD-J6 is still working just fine.

According to this article www.mobil.cz it should be on sale in the Czech Republic (sorry article in Czech, but this is the only intresting piece of info). So this makes me believe it should be available in Europe as well.

For me the ultimate issues will be battery life and the ability to synchronise with kde-pim tools. We'll see how it works out. The fact that it's running Linux is definitely a good start. The question is how "open" will it be, e.g. whether it'll be possible to use, say perl, to read the internal database, add the length of calls and do an accurate analysis of how much money I'm spending etc.

Uh oh..

[Channard]

.. so I'm guessing we can look forward to even more incomprehensible 'My Moto' adverts. My money's on a sheep with an afro on roller skates dancing to the birdie song in an open air club on top of a skyscraper.

Re:Uh oh..

[Tim C]

Sorry - I thought you said *more incomprehensible*...

WiFi

[Underholdning]

With built-in webbrowser and email client this would be a killer gizmo if it supported WiFi. Since the device supports SD cards, you could buy a Wifi SD card, but I'd prefer if it was integrated from start.

Phone operating systems

[gazbo]

I've had nothing but trouble with phone software due to bad design (and the fact that the testers clearly don't actually try to use the product). Perhaps if based on a solid, well documented OS like Linux it will open the door for people to hack the code and fix all those niggling bugs.

I for one am getting pissed of at the way on my phone, if I get a call when writing a text message, all my text gets deleted.

Yes, but does it run Windows?

[MrRTFM]

Hey - I'm kidding!!!
Seriously, this is getting closer to what I call my dream mobile device. I was hanging back until they had decent memory and connectivety - and I'd also like the other bells and whistles, but this is pretty cool.
(People always bag out the FM radio, but it is *really* nice if you have to get a bus/train to work for an hour each day)

Hello Moto !

[polyp2000]

It looks like motorolla are improving with age. I've had issues motorolla's in the past and found the interfaces to be quite clunky, although one or two are quite nice design wise. So I've pretty much stuck with Nokia, (I quite like symbian). The new batch of Motorolla's are looking quite nice, I might try one out, and also I'd like to support linux on an embedded platform anyway.

Why is SD popular?

[evilviper]

Can anyone tell me why SD cards are popular? Or for that matter, why CF hasn't taken over completely... SD may be really small, but I've never heard anybody complain that their CF card was too big.

Also, CF cards have a HUGE advantage in being about half as expensive, per-capacity. Just wondering, why not CF everywhere?

Re:Why is SD popular?

[dabadab]

Well, it's size, really. Phone manufacturers are really trying their best to make the phones as small and light as possible, and CF's size and weight is a real impediment in this effort.
It seems now that the trend is:
Small, light gizmos: SD/MMC (or even xD)
More robust gizmos: CF Type I
Pro stuff: CF Type II

Re:Why is SD popular?

[dabadab]

I guess the difference is something like 10g (guesswork based on how much my Diva mp3 player and a 128MB CF weighs) - and in the era of sub-100g phones that is a lot.

Re:Why is SD popular?

[coppice]

It really is size. Look at the iPAQs. The 5xxx models, which take a CF card, are a lot bigger than models like the 4150 which only takes SD. Try comparing those two and see if you could work out a way to make the 4150 have a CF slot without ending up as chunk as the 5xxx.

Re:Why is SD popular?

[SlashdotOgre]

There is a new type of phone memory soon to be released, T-Flash ( http://www.sandisk.com/corporate_press.html ). I for one am disappointed as I already have devices using CF, SD, and Memory Stick media, last thing I need is another type. The Motorola 710 for Verizon is rumored to use T-Flash.

Re:Why is SD popular?

[evilviper]

see if you could work out a way to make the 4150 have a CF slot

Although I don't have physical access to one, I'm quite sure I could. A CF type-I card is only about twice the size of a SD card, so pushing the plastic housing out a bit more would be the only change in appearance to make a CF card fit. For a 50% difference in the prices between the two cards, I'd be happy to accept a handheld with a small bump near the top of it.

GPL issues

[Pivot]

What happens when the firmware for these phones are distributed to someone, eg service technicians? Shouldn't they be allowed to redistribute? And shouldn't they be able request and receive the source to the binaries as well?

Re:GPL issues

[The Wicked Priest]

Just distributing the firmware to customers, as part of the phone, is enough to invoke the GPL. But your question -- forgive me if I'm misinterpreting -- seems to be assuming something not in evidence: that this will somehow be a problem, or that Motorola isn't intending to comply with the GPL.

Of course, there may also be (and probably will be) non-GPL'd apps running on this Linux base. I don't expect to see a truly "open phone". But (at least until the event) I'm not expecting GPL violations, either.

Re:GPL issues

[kwpulliam]

The aspect to look at it is, "Will GPL compliance even GET you anything in this instance"

Here's a hypothetical - Motorola uses GPL software in this phone. M make available source code and binaries on its website. M also has a Bios on the Phone that allows it to ONLY load SIGNED binaries. M will be in GPL compliance, and code changes ill be given back to the community, but YOU can't load your hacked software into the phone.

Just my thoughts

Re:GPL issues

[Pivot]

One thing I'd like to see are drivers for Secure Digital cards. None currently exist for Linux. If Motorola embeds such a driver in the kernel or as a binary module, they have to release the source code for it.

Re:GPL issues

[tlhIngan]

The problem with SD drivers is that the SD Association prohibits distribution of source code for the drivers.

It's been the same issue for the Zaurus - binary-only SD drivers.

MMC drivers, OTOH, are available, but SD, no. (SD and MMC are different specs - SD cards are physically bigger, have more pins, and the write protect switch.) It's all due to the "Secure" part that 99% of the devices out there do not use (honestly, I've only seen a Panasonic MP3 player do that). (99% of said devuces use SD cards are larger memory - easier to fit in 1GB of flash in SD than MMC because of the physical size difference).

Of course, this can have interesting GPL issues...

Re:GPL issues

[spiritraveller]

GPL doesn't really apply to Motorola in this case. They are simply taking software from Montavista. Montavista is the one you should ask about GPL compliance.

Um, did Linus change his name to Montavista and start selling proprietary versions of Linux (with permission of all his contributors)?

Did someone somehow write a Linux clone from scratch without using any of the original code?

If neither of those has occurred, GPL compliance will be required or Motorola will be in violation of Linus' (and others') copyrights.

Re:GPL issues

[The Wicked Priest]

Yeah, that's exactly what Tivo does (though there are ways around the signature checking, in that instance). :-( It certainly goes against the spirit of the GPL, if not the letter.

When will it hit the market actually?

[wehe]

The question with these Linux based mobile phones is: when will it reach the market eventually? Some nice mobile Linux toys have been announced in the past, but have never become available. See this survey about Linux on or with mobile cellular phones for details.

Changing my mind on all-in-one devices..

[xxx_Birdman_xxx]

I used to be a little against devices trying to do everything, due to poor battery life, size etc... But now that battery life is much better than it used to be, a device similar to this one could end up being perfect for someone like me:
A uni student who does a lot of travelling, listens to tons of music, and normally walks around with a diskman in one pocket, a backpack with a large diary and a mobile on my belt.

Running for the bus with crap flying out of your pockets or flinging around, hitting you in the privates is not a good way to start the day..
-Ryan

Better phone

[willpost]

I'm going to wait until the Motorola MPx comes out.

-horizontal or vertical alignment
-Bluetooth, Wi-Fi, Tri-band GSM/GPRS
-64MB of built in RAM
-SD slot up to 1GB
-320x240 2.8 inch screen
-1.3 MP integrated camera
-QWERTY layout keyboard

It's not Linux but it looks way cool:
Phone 1
Phone 2
Phone 3

Thanks PennyArcade
Bargain PDA

Re:Better phone

[twaltari]

> It's not Linux but it looks way cool:

It looks really ugly to me.

Small problem with this phone

[wyeap]

How do you dial '1' with it?

http://www.linuxdevices.com/files/misc/mot-e680- bi g.jpg

Re:Small problem with this phone

[xxx_Birdman_xxx]

easy.
switch to a console!
Real geeks dont use user interfaces! :-)

Re:Small problem with this phone

[whovian]

Funny, +1.

Here's a replacement link since the original link gives a 403 error. Hint: Study the picture carefully.

Re:Small problem with this phone

[mre5565]

If you look more closely, you'll that '0' is on
the keypad twice. This is obviously a mock up.

Phone or a PC?

[myownkidney]

The line between handhel PCs and Mobile telephony devices is becoming ever narrower. (Read more here) My Laptop can dial out using a PCMCIA card... does that make my Laptop a Mobile Phone?

My Phone, on the other hand, is far more powerful as a PC compared to the Desktops I used merely 5 years ago. So does that make my Mobile Phone a PC?

I think as this line gets blurrier and blurrier, one shouldn't be amazed at all the cool things the latest Handsets can perform. And as more and more devices are turning out to be more Computer-like, it shouldn't be too far in the future when you can use your Washing Machine to make a phone call.

Great, so where is the source?

[andersen]

I'm happy to see Linux being used on all sorts of devices, but I am also very concerned that they fulfil their obligations for the GPL'd source in their device. So where is the source? I grow tired of getting at least 1-2 emails per week about some new router or wireless access point or whatever that is violating the GPL distributing BusyBox with no source and no offer for source. So I truly hope Motorola is behaving itself and doing what it is legally obligated to do. I've searched their site but I see nothing but press releases. Has anyone obtained one of these phones? If you have, can you confirm whether Motorola is fulfilling their obligations per the GPL?

Re:Great, so where is the source?

[Anonymous Coward]

I own an a760 (Moto's first Linux phone) and in the manual it says you can order a copy of the source (from a Chinese address if I remember correctly).

Don't know if this is enough to comply with the GPL - they make the source available, but only to people who manage to somehow get past the Chinese postal system :-)

Re:Great, so where is the source?

[TEB_78]

Who says they need to give out a new source? As I have understood, the GPL doesn't as long as they haven't changed anything in the kernel. If they use MonteVistas version which propably are already ported for the processor they are using, they don't need to change anything. And you can download it yourself at MonteVistas site.
They can have all the interesting software in userspace, which don't need to be GPL.

If I've gotten anything wrong I'm sure enough people here will inform me about it

Re:Great, so where is the source?

[TEB_78]

That's enough.

From the GPL:
3. You may copy and distribute the Program (or a work based on it, under Section 2) in object code or executable form under the terms of Sections 1 and 2 above provided that you also do one of the following:

b) Accompany it with a written offer, valid for at least three years, to give any third party, for a charge no more than your cost of physically performing source distribution, a complete machine-readable copy of the corresponding source code, to be distributed under the terms of Sections 1 and 2 above on a medium customarily used for software interchange; or,

Re:Great, so where is the source?

[ctid]

Not true. If you distribute the binary, you are responsible for making the source available to the recipient. It's not enough to link to someone else's website; you must provide the source on request.

Re:Great, so where is the source?

[TEB_78]

Ok, thanx for correcting me :)

iPod replacement?

[Talez]

Unless a 15G SD card suddenly becomes cheaper than $299 minus the price of this phone I don't really see this phone being an iPod replacement.

A question for the embedded geeks..

[irexe]

The obvious coolness of a Linux-kernel in your pocket aside, can somebody shed some light on why a phone needs a multi-user, multithreaded OS with virtual- and protected memory? I'm guessing most of these features get ripped out for embedded use, right? Isn't a linux kernel overkill on a phone then?

Note: I'm not trolling here, I'm genuinely curious. Educate me please :-)

Re:A question for the embedded geeks..

[narkotix]

you never know when you may need to have an xserver on your mobile or run a large website with a database! :P

Re:A question for the embedded geeks..

[turgid]

Because as hardware continues to become more powerful, one day you'll have a multi-user server and workstation, with database, compiler suite, web server, application server, all the bells and whistles, in your pocket. That's why. And if the hardware's already powerful enough to run the kernel without breaking into a sweat, what's the point in developing your own proprietary, cut-down offering?

Re:A question for the embedded geeks..

[Anonymous Coward]

Hint would be that Japan DOCOMO released new phone of 3rd geniration with dual CPU, one for vois proccesing and another for gui. Here you go. And do not forget that phones now days can brows the web, so there is a danger of script kiddies. Well you can elaborate from here.

Re:A question for the embedded geeks..

[eraserewind]

A phone doesn't make calls, or send sms, connect to the internet by magic. They run a telephony stack, and a tcp/ip or wap stack too. I doubt they would appreciate waiting for the UI to finish in order to do their thing.

Phones run many UI applications, and many 3rd party applications. They shouldn't be allowed to overwrite an important processes' memory in the middle of a call.

Phones are becoming the ultimate networked computer. You'll be able to ssh to/from your phone, or launch an X session to it, if you can't already. TCP/IP, GSM, Bluetooth, with WLAN being next. A security model and concept of user priveleges might come in handy.

Re:A question for the embedded geeks..

[TEB_78]

I would say some of the points of using Linux in embedded devices is that the developers get a lot for free.

1) There is noe license cost. This one is important since the licensing for other RTOS's make you pay a fee for every product you make or sells, etc.
2) They get TCP/IP stack, bluetooth-stack, etc for free (no need to buy it from somewhere or write it on your own)
3) Linux is good for marketing these days. Like java-phones sounded cool a few years ago.

Re:A question for the embedded geeks..

[mattyrobinson69]

this kinda ties in with that story yesterday about the .mobile domain. also, the kernel now has an option (at compile time) to remove kernel featues for embedded systems: load all symbols for debuging/kksymoops (NEW) enable futex support (NEW) Enable eventpoll support (NEW) no-op I/O schduler (NEW) Anticipatory I/O sheduler (NEW) Deadline I/O scheduler (NEW) Optimize for size (NEW)

OGG

[Oliver_Etchebarne]

Does anybody know if this new toy supports OGG? I mean... in these times when patents and sues are a daily news, I don't wanna have problems with Fraunhofer...

who needs it?

[timerider]

i mean, who really needs a phone that can do so much more than making phone calls?

Re:who needs it?

[mst76]

> i mean, who really needs a phone that can do so much more than making phone calls?

Who really needs to carry a phone all the time? Who really needs to talk to someone a mile away at all? People doing fine before the invention of the telephone. Who really needs to carry 10000 hours of music in his pocket? We were doing fine with a Walkman not too long ago. Who needs a Walkman? We were living happily with a turntable at home and live performers elsewhere. Who needs a general purpose computer at home? Weren't people living happily without one 25 years ago? Who needs to see moving images or hear broadcast sound in their living room? Just read books at home and go to a theater or a bar for entertainment.

Besides food, shelter and clothing, there are few things that you really need. But there are a lot of things that can make life more confortable, enjoyable or simpler. For many people, one of these is device that can be used to talk to other people, take pictures, play music, make notes, remind them of appointments, play games (maybe in the future even with a decent enough screen to read books and newspapers), and be so small that they never have to think about whether to bring it along or not. People who want to carry a device only to talk to other people can buy a phone that does not support additional features or simply ignore those features.

Re:who needs it?

[mre5565]

I travel a lot, and wouldn't mind a compact
device that does calls, basic web browsing,
mp3, etc. Having to haul all these devices
around is cumbersome.

Re:who needs it?

[timerider]

ok, then you're one in a million...
I have my laptop with me in such a case, and i'd rather have a cellular where the irda connection and modem functions work reliable (curses at nokia) than such a gizmo.

Webbrowsing on a 1/4 VGA screen? not really.
and I already have a mp3 player that fits in a shirt pocket.

Qt or not ?

[makapuf]

While the article said that Qt/embedded was running the preceding moto handset, is there any indication on what UI lib is running this one ? Is it still Qt/E ?

3D race is on

[S3D]

Well, with ATI annonced 3d hardware accelerator for smartphones (with OpenGL ES API) it's really interesting who will be first with 3d hardware smartphone -Linux or Simbian.(well, software 3d suck on smartphones). OpenGL is quite organic to Linux, but guess what ? Nokia annonced Symbian 8.0 with OpenGL ES API integrated onto OS. No phones itself annonced yet though...

non magnetic media

[sh0rtie]

i dunno having a high precision spinning lump of magnetised iron that can be rendered totally useless if you encounter a magnetic field (very common in modern life, think loudspeakers, motors,fridges,microwaves,cars etc) just seems as if its asking for trouble really, especially in a mobile device

solidstate while not perfect (max writes is quite low and size is expensive) is a far more durable medium , its silent , its faster than a hard drive, its small, no microscopic moving parts to go wrong, no weird gyroscope effects due to having a spinning wheel at 4000rpm when you move it (ie players) its well suited for mobile storage, i can see why its popular

i think perhaps its not used everywhere though because of the size/price/reliability ratio, spinning iron is so much cheaper but has all the disadvantages

i have a 256kb cfcard on my desk from 95 and now we can get 512mb and 1gb cards so the size is getting there, just not as quick or as cheap as magnetic media
when 1gb will only fit 3 mp3 albums and 1 DivX movie that 300$ card seems rather expensive compared to the spinning lump way

Re:non magnetic media

[evilviper]

having a high precision spinning lump of magnetised iron that can be render [...] just seems as if its asking for trouble really, especially in a mobile device

Ummm, CompactFlash cards ARE solid-state devices, and don't have any moving parts. You're probably thinking about IBM's MicroDrive, which comes in a CF type2 form factor, but I wasn't talking about that at all.

I don't agree

[S3D]

It's not for future use, it's neccecary just now. 1. protected memory: Smartphones usually have a lot less memory then PC (around 16-32 Mb RAM usually for now). Smartphones theoretically should run without reboot for years. Each application could be open/closed several times per day. That mean even small memory leaks could accumulate to huge amount and boggle the system down. That is why smartphones have very defencive memory managment. (two stage constructors in Symbian etc.) 2. multithreadng. For the same reason as above smartphones should treat threads very carefully. That usually complicated by the luck of precise timers on smartphones.(I can never understand why there is no timer more precise then +- 5 ms on symbian phones). Guidelines is usally to evoid multithreading in favor of stacking sevral objects in the same thread.

Linux everywhere...

[bill_doors]

Linux in my pc... Linux in my pda... Linux in my cellphone... i love the way it sounds! :)
I just hope that the Linux embedded systems version be open source. GPL rulez!!!

Hard Drive?

[Cpt_Kirks]

When, oh when are these types of gadgets (PDAs , "Smart Phones", etc.) going to start coming out with a hard drive? Hell, just put in a CF II slot and get the 4GB Microdive price down.

Of course, 40GB would be better...

LCD Dialing Pads

[dlevitan]

I really hate these phones that use a touch screen to let you dial. I'm sure it lets them save space, but there's no way I can dial on that without looking at the keypad. It really nice to be able to call someone when its freezing outside and not worry about getting frostbite. I'd really like a Phone/PDA/MP3 player (or at least two of those things), but not until I can actually use it as a phone rather than a pda that has a phone app.

xmms Debian-MontaVista?

[Doc Ruby]

I can't wait to install xmms. Anyone ever apt-get install xmms , then install to a MontaVista box?

Re:but...

[Alif]

Really, I have responsibility for a couple of linux servers, so for me SSH is a killer app.

reminds me of the Dilbert strip...

[SethJohnson]

Reminds me of the Dilbert where the engineers are trying to one-up each other talking about previous years of assembly programming. One guy finally says, "Well back in my day, we had to program using ones and zeros. And sometimes we didn't even have ones!"

Whatever happened to Open GL anyway?

[Kiyooka]

Sorry, this is a bit OT, but I always hear about how much better Open GL is for graphics. But lately it seems not many games support it. Why? Isn't it much better than DirectX? Is it disappearing because it's competing with MS?

Not trolling, I really want to know -- I bought a GVX1 4 years ago and it STILL runs OpenGL-enabled games smoothly. But fewer and fewer games are supporting OpenGL. Anybody more knowledgable than me know why?

Re:Non-USA brand please?

[JimTheta]

Hey ninja -- I'm a software engineer at Motorola. Chicago-area is where the brunt of our cell-phone development is. Where'd you pull Texas from? (Don't ask me a crapload of questions; I was only hired 6 months ago.)