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Congress May Force Revealing of Car Computer Secrets
marksven writes "The Seattle Post-Intelligencer is reporting that there is a bill with 86 co-sponsors in the House to force automakers to open up their proprietary interfaces to car computers. Small car repair shops are more and more becoming locked out of the repair business because most late model cars can only be fixed by accessing their computers with codes that are secret."
and posted on the web - like this site
You can make bit-for-bit copies of any DVD now, complete with all the encryption on it. And the laws preventing the distribution of those DVDs (normal copyright law) has been on the books for a long, long time. If you follow the money, the bottom line is that the CSS and region codes on a DVD only help to support cartel price-fixing profits.
Bill Clinton: Pimp we can believe in. - The Shirt!!!
Some of you people just don't get it: DVD CSS has NOTHING to do with COPYING or the prevention thereof! You can make as many copies of a CSS'ed DVD as you want. CSS is all about who can play the DVD and where.
Not correct. I can make unlimited copies of DVDs without any access to codes - just as I can make copies of a text written in German without being able to read that language. Mass bootlegging of DVDs happens this way already.
CSS is all about controlling who gets to make DVD players. It does nothing to prevent copying.
Tom Swiss | the infamous tms | my blog
You cannot wash away blood with blood
I used to work for Sun Electric (now Snap-On), designing engine and emission diagnostic analyzers.
The "secret" diagnostic codes are published. The Chilton's repair guides for cars list the error codes for each car and manufacturer. Also, the factory service manuals for those cars have the codes and their meanings listed.
I love Cadillacs, though, because you can press "OFF" and "WARMER" on the Climate Control panel and it will list the codes on the display there! Then you can do the repairs at home yourself!
You can also go buy a $500.00 Snap-on ALDL analyzer (Assembly Line Diagnostic Link) and it will list the codes too. The newer vehicles call this OBD-2 (Onboard Diagnostics, V2).
Finally, there is some software out there (Payware, IIRC) that will list the codes on a PC or laptop, but you need to build an RS-232 to ALDL level converter for it (or buy the software with the appropriate dongle).
-- You are in a maze of little, twisty passages, all different... --
Heh - I was about to submit this story. I can add a link to the actual bill, though: H.R. 2735. And, if you happen to be a US voter reading this, go here, find your representatives, and tell them that you support the Motor Vehicle Owners' Right to Repair Act of 2003. Perhaps hint to them that the same rationale could be applied to other things that consumers buy, and might want to fix at some point. Perhaps suggest that, really, some sort of comprehensive Consumers Bill of Rights could be in order. Just a thought.
Perhaps you missed the whole DeCSS issue? "Without licensed DVD players for Linux and other operating systems, an entire class of computer users is completely cut off from viewing DVDs."
Tom Swiss | the infamous tms | my blog
You cannot wash away blood with blood
Virtyally none of the diagnosic capabilities in modern cars are accessible via OBD-II.
Every manufacturer has proprietary networks built into the car of which OBD-II is a tiny emulation layer. Its designed for emissions testing and emissions related codes, nothing else.
You can't diagnose why your power locks aren't working with it, you can't diagnose why your HVAC controls aren't working. You can't read exhaust gas temperatures, or any other direct sensor outputs. You can't bleed ABS pumps with it, etc, etc, etc.
There are VERY few models you can get that sort of information about. Volkswagen/Audi group cars have some diagnostic software available, but virtually 100% of the information about what you can access and what sort of tests you can run have been reverse engineered, and is very incomplete. VAG also recently changed their protocols for newer cars to block those systems from working.
You may have watched mechanics sweat this stuff, but some of us sweat this stuff directly. This is coming from the direct experience of someone who both repairs cars and works for a internationally ranked professional racing team.
AutoZone in most locations (not California, though, last I heard) will plug in an OBD-II scanner and read & translate your codes for free.
Hmm Check Engine. OK. :opens hood: Yep, got an engine, Check!
Cant remember the comedian, but oh well. Seriously though, certain brands of cars(cough cough Ford) are known for having the check engine light come on when a sensor in the car is being pissy, maybe cause it was cold or your wheel was slipping, even if there is nothing wrong with your engine. Once it comes on, the only way to turn it off is to take it to a mechanic who will charge you 60$ to reset the light and tell you he doesnt see any problems. Or you can just disconnect the battery for minute, but you lose your radio station presets. I don't see why this is such a big deal though. Seems like its pretty easy to get a code reader. Hell the base model is less than 200$, might be good to get one just to play with. Not to mention all the codes can be looked up right here. For 25$ a year you can even use AllData to diagnose problems with your car based on the codes, and be updated on service and recall bulletins. Interesting note at the bottom though: Note: Currently, information is available for Model Years 1982 to 2002. 2003 Model Year information is scheduled to be released this winter. Unfortunately, information for Honda, Acura and BMW is not available to consumers through ALLDATA DIY by request of the manufacturers.
Moderation Totals: Flamebait=2, Troll=1, Redundant=1, Insightful=6, Overrated=1, Underrated=1, Total=12. (not mine)
The usefulness of the proprietary data stream is overstated. I think it was in 94 that the first on-board diagnistic spec (OBD) appeared in mass production. Everyone was crying about it at the time. Amazingly, independent repair shops are still in business. Since then there have been refinements, but it basically defines a standard interface and subset data stream required on all production cars in the US. With an OBD capable scan tool and the proper manuals, any tech can diagnose any problem with any car. There might be a more robust data stream available to the dealer mechanic, but the true value of that extra data is trivial IMO.
I left a 10 year career in auto repair (part of that post-OBD), where my specialty was driveability and electrical. The truly skilled technicians understand the system and don't necessarily depend on a particular tool to get their work done. An old-style analog oscilloscope is more valuable to a tech than any proprietary scan tool. The challenge is the diminishing number of techs that would know what to do with one.
...the difference between the "turbo" and the "standard" engine is a software patch and $20 in parts.
Gee, and here I thought it would be the presense of a _turbocharger_. Second post already that thinks a turbo is a piece of software rather than hardware. I don't know of anyone marketing a car as being turbocharged who isn't using a physical device called a turbocharger.
In many places, the car then becomes illegal for street use. And many engines simply won't work with a carburateor these days because the computer systems control more than just fuel delivery. My vehiche only has a stub with a sensor in the place where the distributor is supposed to go, and they removed the casting for the mechanical fuel pump on the same engine in 1987. Throwing a carb on it would take a butt ton of work, and probably cost more than replacing all the electronics.