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Congress May Force Revealing of Car Computer Secrets
marksven writes "The Seattle Post-Intelligencer is reporting that there is a bill with 86 co-sponsors in the House to force automakers to open up their proprietary interfaces to car computers. Small car repair shops are more and more becoming locked out of the repair business because most late model cars can only be fixed by accessing their computers with codes that are secret."
The difference lies in the fact that with codes to your car, it can be serviced independently.
With the codes to your DVD, you can make unlimited copies, and do anything and everything with them.
Try doing that to your car when you get it's codes.
I think the fact that the DVD is pure information and a car is a physical object, not subject to casual duplication, might be a difference, but who knows?
Get thee glass eyes, and, like a scurvy politician, seem to see things thou dost not.--King Lear
Congress to Automakers: "G1bb0rz u5 j00r l337 c0d3x0r5555!"
and posted on the web - like this site
...I'm afraid I can't do that.
webpage
had to take my car to the dealership this weekend because the shop down the block didn't know what the codes meant. Turns out it was a misaligned break caliper, cost me $225 at the dealership, would have been about $130 down the street.
They should have always required opening up of these interfaces. The owner pretty much has to take the word of a very small select group of "in the know" mechanics on what condition their car is in. And we all know how trustworthy the average local mechanic/dealer mechanic is (do a google for Jiffy Lube, Sears, etc, and auto mechanics and lawsuits)
Then I recall my own wonderful personal experience. I had engine fluctuation issues in a turbo charged car. 15 trips to the dealer (under warranty) and replacement of virtually ever sensor and the car's computer failed to rectify the sporadic condition. The car had a computer interface, and it was telling them... well, I don't know what it was telling them - I couldn't access the interface....
Long story short though, one day, the engine started having RPM fluctuations while idling, so I popped open the hood and, since I hadn't been running long nor very hard, decided to take a quick look at the intercooler fluid level. I just happened to notice as I pulled out the intercooler cap that the float bob sensor attached to said cap was sunk to the bottom, even though the intercooler level was fine. I bypassed this sensor and all was fine for the next 100K miles. Odds are I'd have found this more quickly if I could have hooked up a computer to the interface to diagnose the problem while it was happening.
The cesspool just got a check and balance.
"Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions." -- G. K. Chesterton
You can make bit-for-bit copies of any DVD now, complete with all the encryption on it. And the laws preventing the distribution of those DVDs (normal copyright law) has been on the books for a long, long time. If you follow the money, the bottom line is that the CSS and region codes on a DVD only help to support cartel price-fixing profits.
Bill Clinton: Pimp we can believe in. - The Shirt!!!
Some of you people just don't get it: DVD CSS has NOTHING to do with COPYING or the prevention thereof! You can make as many copies of a CSS'ed DVD as you want. CSS is all about who can play the DVD and where.
The car industry provides two areas of profit (and one of loss) 1. Making and selling the car - a loss 2. Financing the sale of a car - a profit 3. Servicing and repairing the car - a profit Finance is a competitive industry, so the profits are small. Servicing can be turned into a monopoly, so is it any surprise the car makers are doing so? Politicians know how to shakedown an industry - threatening to regulate it and forcing competition is not uncommon. For some as yet unknown reason, the threats are not always carried out.
Seriously, how many legal car repair shops do you think there are? A million is most likely a conservative figure. The car computer legislation is happening because there are a lot of people in the car repair business, and have been in the car repair business for generations. But, suddenly (last few years) they've been unable to fix cars because they don't know the secret codes for the cars' computers.
This isn't "I want everything, like MP3s and DVDs, for free". This is "I want to fsck-ing survive here.
... Territo said. "It's like the difference between an Apple microprocessor and an IBM microprocessor."
Hmmh, and I thought Apples G5 Microprocessors come from IBM...
"With that information, Territo said, independent mechanics and parts manufacturers could duplicate major components such as fuel injectors that automakers have spent millions of dollars developing."
If the manufacturers spent millions of dollars designing parts and *didn't* get patents on those parts, then it's their own damn fault...and they have also failed their shareholders.
If they had patented their expensively-designed parts, they would have zero problems with opening the specs for third-party repair shops and could still prevent third-party replica parts.
Bill Clinton: Pimp we can believe in. - The Shirt!!!
People are diliberately confusing 'codes' and 'code'. Mechanics need the _codes_ that the computer spits out indicating what is wrong. Nobody needs the _code_ for the computer software.
As for the whole complaint about the recent complexity of cars; it is government mandated and consumer demanded. There are requirements for fuel efficiency and emissions. A simple 4 stroke engine can only be so effecient and so clean. To meet regulations, cars need to incorporate exhaust gas recirculation, variable cam timing, complex variable spark timing, catylitic converters, and a host of other complexities. Consumers want climate control, adaptive suspension, 17 way power adjustable seats, power cupholders, remote buttons for everything, heated everything, and performance, but they expect their cars to have the simplicity of an air cooled VW?
The masses are the crack whores of religion.
This really isn't much different than open-source vs closed-source though, is it...if the person selling it wants to lock you out of the internals, well, your choices include not buying from them.
#:apt-get install camaro
No package by that name.
#:apt-get install thunderbird
Try "apt-get install firefox"
#:apt-get install mini
Downloading "mini-dinstall" from repos
Ctrl-C
Process interrupted
#:apt-get install pinto
Warning: you are about to install package "pinto" from repository "www.ford.com/unstable" Do you wish to continue?
Ctrl-C
The ______ Agenda
Not correct. I can make unlimited copies of DVDs without any access to codes - just as I can make copies of a text written in German without being able to read that language. Mass bootlegging of DVDs happens this way already.
CSS is all about controlling who gets to make DVD players. It does nothing to prevent copying.
Tom Swiss | the infamous tms | my blog
You cannot wash away blood with blood
Heh - I was about to submit this story. I can add a link to the actual bill, though: H.R. 2735. And, if you happen to be a US voter reading this, go here, find your representatives, and tell them that you support the Motor Vehicle Owners' Right to Repair Act of 2003. Perhaps hint to them that the same rationale could be applied to other things that consumers buy, and might want to fix at some point. Perhaps suggest that, really, some sort of comprehensive Consumers Bill of Rights could be in order. Just a thought.
It has little to do with quality. A old-school mechanic with 30+ years of tinkering has considerably more knowledge of automotive systems than some 19 year old fresh out of Lincon Tech. I'd trust my car to the old-timer before the new guy. Fact is, while the interface may be computer controlled, the engine itself is the same basic hardware that it was 100 years ago. The car computer can't "hear" bearing wrap like a human can. Sure, it'll turn the check-engine light on and give you an error code.
My point: putting the old-timers and the grease monkeys out of business by restricting their ability to solve the simple problems (like having to reset a computer-controlled a/c system, they need the codes), you take out the segement of population most able to solve the really hard problems.
As for your point about the range of cars on the road....I've never worked on a Dell before. But I have worked on an IBM, a Gateway, an HP, a Tandy, a Mac, a Swan, a Compaq, and a Digital. Does that mean I'm not qualified to work on a Dell?
Chris Knight is my hero.
Perhaps you missed the whole DeCSS issue? "Without licensed DVD players for Linux and other operating systems, an entire class of computer users is completely cut off from viewing DVDs."
Tom Swiss | the infamous tms | my blog
You cannot wash away blood with blood
Virtyally none of the diagnosic capabilities in modern cars are accessible via OBD-II.
Every manufacturer has proprietary networks built into the car of which OBD-II is a tiny emulation layer. Its designed for emissions testing and emissions related codes, nothing else.
You can't diagnose why your power locks aren't working with it, you can't diagnose why your HVAC controls aren't working. You can't read exhaust gas temperatures, or any other direct sensor outputs. You can't bleed ABS pumps with it, etc, etc, etc.
There are VERY few models you can get that sort of information about. Volkswagen/Audi group cars have some diagnostic software available, but virtually 100% of the information about what you can access and what sort of tests you can run have been reverse engineered, and is very incomplete. VAG also recently changed their protocols for newer cars to block those systems from working.
You may have watched mechanics sweat this stuff, but some of us sweat this stuff directly. This is coming from the direct experience of someone who both repairs cars and works for a internationally ranked professional racing team.
With the codes to your DVD, you can make unlimited copies, and do anything and everything with them.
I can't speak a word of Polish, but given enough time I could make an exact copy of a book written in Polish.
DVD encryption does not prevent copying, it prevents people from watching them with players that the DVDCA hasn't made any money off of.
LK
"Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
You also handle the point that allowing users to get into the inner workings of their cars is not inherently evil.
I foresee some argument along the lines of "If we do this, <insert terrrorist/criminal organization here> will be able to soup-up the performance of their cars, and escape capture.
People working on their cars at low level resembles people working on Linux From Scratch, with the difference being that a core dump is only embarrassing, whereas an engine becoming several hundred flying sub-engines at the I95/I495 interchange, known with affection as 'the mixing bowl', could have substantial costs...
I hope the safety gestapo doesn't win the argument.
Get thee glass eyes, and, like a scurvy politician, seem to see things thou dost not.--King Lear
Fuel injectors, by the way, are not developed by automakers any more. Automakers go to someone and say hey, we need an injector with these dimensions that flows this much fuel and runs off this voltage, and they get a part back, they sign a contract agreeing to buy so many of them and to put however many of them into cars, and that's it. Furthermore a fuel injector is a dog-simple item which can be made better simply by throwing more money at it for better materials - it's just a solenoid valve. They usually run on 12 volts and they open and close in response to an electrical signal which is pulsed once for each opening. They are usually run at a single given pressure by the OEM and you can "trick" them (and your computer) by using a rising rate fuel pressure regulator, which is a popular way of doing a cheap turbo installation. As the boost rises, the fuel pressure rises, and more fuel is delivered. The next step up is to use a box that takes over fuel management for the computer, and/or tweaks the signal from the computer, and the final step is to replace the car's computer entirely. All of this stuff is done outside of the injector. The injector, as I have previously stated, is a simple device and high-rate injectors can be had for little more than OEM parts. Rebuilt OEM (270cc/min, I think, maybe it was 230?) for my car were $69, you can get new 370cc/min injectors for about $100 each. So Territo is full of horse shit, whoever he is. (Too lazy to RTFA, sorry, I'd rather spend my time ranting.)
Also most of these parts are not complicated. No one owns the facts, so you just stick a thread pitch gauge in the hole, and measure the diameter, and you know what size the thing should be; You can hook up the part and test it using calibration equipment, another (known) sensor (which is calibration equipment of course), or you can build a new one from the specifications. Data sheets are available for automotive sensors, and factory service manuals will tell you the expected range of response from a sensor, most of which are resistance-based.
Automakers quite simply want to hang onto the lucrative service market. Dealers charge more for service than practically anyone else, except for very high end establishments that specialize on working on exotic cars. For example there's a joint called Canepa's in Santa Cruz that bought, sold, and serviced rolls, lamborghini, ferrari and so on. But if you go to a dealer for your ordinary vehicle you generally pay 10-50% over the average service station for both parts and labor, and you don't necessarily get better service unless you bring in a really special car, which they tend to take seriously.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
AutoZone in most locations (not California, though, last I heard) will plug in an OBD-II scanner and read & translate your codes for free.
If all this should have a reason, we would be the last to know.
This lawsuit isn't about valve timing tables and that type of data, this lawsuit is about engine diagnostic codes. They aren't protecting trade secrets, they are protecting their repair business by keeping out competition.
It is not an invention, it is precise settings which have to be worked out over hours and hours of testing.
But it's not.
This is about ERROR CODES not ignition and fuel maps. This about being able to plug something into my car and have it tell me that there's a problem with XXXXX.
That doesn't say shit about the design of that part. They just want access to the same diagnostic codes as the dealer. Right now manufactuers are only required to make a tiny subset of these codes availible.
The automakers are just whining about their "intellectual property" because they think they can get away with it since the vast majority of the public doesn't know the difference between a diagnostic code, and the actual program code itself.
Life is too short to proofread.
Someone needs to let them in on a little IBM/Apple secret
I am a viral sig. Please copy me and help me spread. Thank you.
I had a problem with my '99 cavalier; the engine would drop it's RPMs by several hundred every once in a while; almost, but not quite, enough to stall.
Took it in to the dealer, they said 'is the check engine light on?'
'Nope,' I replied, 'but here's what it's doing...'
'Sorry,' came the reply. 'If the check light's not on, there's no diagnostic codes for us to look up. We can't fix it unless we know what's wrong.'
Vintage computer games and RPG books available. Email me if you're interested.
I've been training as a mechanic and in most of our classes we use computer diagnostic tools as one step in verifying the problem.
First off, while the error codes are usually VERY accurate to what POTENTIAL problems are, they DON'T always tell you exactly what the problem is. Case in point: '96 GMC Yukon, the Service Engine light comes up every few days. Running the computer codes, it spits out a problem with an O2 sensor in the exhaust system, saying there is too much O2 in the exhaust. Now, this could be a number of things wrong...from problems with plugs and whires to bad gaskets, etc. that allow O2 leakage. However, the problem is nothing more than a crack in the weld on the exhaust pipe that leaks air into the exhaust system before the sensor, causing it to go off.
Secondly, last time I checked, I could buy manufacturer-specific computer equipment to diagnose cars from the manufacturers as a mechanic. Yes, the're about $600-700 a pop. (Snapon in turn sells a computer for that price and sells modules for each manufacturer for diagnosis).
Also, these performance maps and such you think aren't necessary...are. Why? because, during diagnosis, one of the things we look at is engine performance to verify that the engine isn't having trouble. The computer calculates and spits out performance data for the technician based on the information in the computer. No, we don't get to see all of the information on the chip directly, but for the sake of diagnosis, our tools have to be able to access it in the event that the car's performance is lagging behind what it should be and we have to diagnose it.
Thank you for our time.