Slashdot Mirror


Kahle vs Ashcroft: Copyright Battle Continues

Robotech_Master writes "People may remember librarian Brewster Kahle as the man behind Archive.org's Wayback Machine and the Internet Bookmobile. He was one of the big supporters of Eldred in the Eldred vs Ashcroft case. Well, he's at it again. A new lawsuit, Kahle vs Ashcroft, has been filed as of March 22nd. Lawrence Lessig comments on this case in his blog." Question number 3 of the FAQ explains that while the Eldred case challenged the length of copyright expansion, this case challenges the breadth.

390 comments

  1. Hasn't this already been settled? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Not that I agree with the result, but didn't the US Supreme Court rule that effectively "open-ended" copyright terms were OK?

    1. Re:Hasn't this already been settled? by panthro · · Score: 5, Informative

      Not really. This is with reference to works that are no longer available... basically, he's saying that retaining copyright restrictions on abandonware is unconstitutional, and I agree.

      --
      If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
    2. Re:Hasn't this already been settled? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      no. SCOTUS basically said that Congress was still within the letter of the constitution by saying that copyrighted works still had a difinitive time-limited scope. even if that scope keeps getting extended.

      read lessig's comments. he points out the difference in the complaints between this new case and the Eldred case.

    3. Re:Hasn't this already been settled? by lukewarmfusion · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Who's to classify a work as "abandonware?" If the author doesn't want the work released, he should have the right to keep it that way. The burden should rest on the publisher, even if that means tracking down the current copyright holder and begging for permission.

      Just because you can't find it easily doesn't mean that it should be free for the taking.

    4. Re:Hasn't this already been settled? by AnyNoMouse · · Score: 5, Informative
      Who's to classify a work as "abandonware?" If the author doesn't want the work released, he should have the right to keep it that way. The burden should rest on the publisher, even if that means tracking down the current copyright holder and begging for permission. Just because you can't find it easily doesn't mean that it should be free for the taking.
      The constitution originally provided that all works had to apply for copyright to be copyrighted and that these copyrights had to apply for a renewal at some point to maintain copyright. A recent law changed these requirements.

      "Abandonware" would be a copyrighted work that was not renewed.

      --
      -Redundancy Man strikes again!
    5. Re:Hasn't this already been settled? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting
      • If the author doesn't want the work released, he should have the right to keep it that way.
      THE HELL HE DOES.

      That line of thinking has caused thousands of hours of vintage TV programming to be lost forever.

      If you can't legally buy it, you should be able to freely trade it around.

      Besides, since everything is supposed to end up in the public domain eventually, what better way to preserve something?

      You forget that copyright is not meant to solely benefit the copyright holder, and noone else.

      Amiga Unix is now being spread around the net thanks to someone who had a tape of it and had the forethought to back it up before it degrades. The source code was already lost long ago, so if this were lost, there would be no existence of Amiga Unix at all. And it's said that AMIX is one of the better implementations of it's time, I believe. With your line of reasoning, AMIX would be lost.

      Abandonware could be set at, say, 15 or 20 years. More than plenty to let something sit around. And if it can be legally acquired (not used, brand new), then copyright protection is fine. But something like this literally allows someone to destroy a part of history, intentionally or otherwise. And that should be prevented above all, because what good is it if the future generations can't benefit from it?
    6. Re:Hasn't this already been settled? by SydShamino · · Score: 4, Insightful

      So does the author have the right to say "I don't want my work released, ever, so any old copies out there can degrade until they are unuseable but no one can make any new copies."????

      Answer honestly. Do you believe that this is true, that an original content creator has perpetual rights to control the use of his work?

      If so, congratulations, you believe in the European model of copyright, where it is an inherent right of a person.

      In the US, however, copyright is not an inherent right. Instead, public domain is the inherent right, and the constitution grants a limited monopoly on creative works ONLY so that the public domain is improved. Thus, in the US, once an author/creator/etc. chooses to write down and release a work, he or she has given up perpetual control of that work. The constitution demands that, after a limited monopoly, the public domain shall inherit the work.

      Frankly, I agree with the constitution. Some things belong to humanity, not to the greed or whims of those in control. The sum body of human creativity is one of them.

      --
      It doesn't hurt to be nice.
    7. Re:Hasn't this already been settled? by panthro · · Score: 1

      The copyright holder often stops distributing the work before the copyright term is up. I don't have statistics, but it seems logical to assume that in the vast majority of these cases that happens because the work stops being profitable; therefore, in those cases, the fact that the work is being distributed by someone else is not hurting the copyright holder's profit at that point. The copyright term can be cut short here without curtailing (and indeed, enhancing) the principle behind finite copyright terms.

      If we follow your reasoning, why have copyright terms at all? Works should stay copyrighted forever and ever until the copyright holder (who may have inherited the copyright from a great-grandfather) decides to let it go.

      --
      If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
    8. Re:Hasn't this already been settled? by Galuvian · · Score: 1, Informative

      Prior to the Sonny Bono Act + DMCA changes to copywright laws, all Copywrighted work needed to be registered with the government. The question this case raises is now that copywrights are granted automatically at the time the work is created and no registration is necessary, there is no way to tell what the abandonware is, so everything is protected for life+70. The original copywright law provided for 14 years plus the option for another 14. The author had to explicitly come forward and request that the work remain copywrighted after a certain period of time. That is fundamentally different than the current copywright laws.

    9. Re:Hasn't this already been settled? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I'm sorry, but author or no, you don't have the right to destroy information. If the author dosen't want something released, then they shouldn't have released it.

      With copyright terms "protecting" works for longer than their recorded medium can hold them, we are faced with a very real danger of our history, culture and knowledge disappearing.

      If you want to live in the dark ages, find a cave somewhere. Me, I kinda like some things about the 21st century.

    10. Re:Hasn't this already been settled? by lukewarmfusion · · Score: 1

      The answer to your question is:

      The author has every right to prevent his work from being released during the copyright period. However, you do have the right to make a copy for backup, shifting, etc.

      But the author should not be prevented from maintaining a right to his own work during his lifetime. I'm not sure that I agree with the "so many years after his lifetime" part of our current law.

      If I create a work for personal benefit, and then others benefit but I do not - then copyright has failed. I simply would not create any more work. If he wants to let others benefit from his work, then that's his choice.

    11. Re:Hasn't this already been settled? by glenrm · · Score: 0, Troll

      Shit vintage TV and Amiga UNIX I didn't know this was so serious...

    12. Re:Hasn't this already been settled? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      If you can't legally buy it, you should be able to freely trade it around.

      That's right! Where is my free weed?

    13. Re:Hasn't this already been settled? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Here's the problem. I think an author should be allowed to maintain the rights to his material as long as he lives. Why should I only be allowed to make money off of my great american novel for 20 years and then for the rest of my life, a bunch of knock-off publishing houses can redistribute my novel without paying me - yet they continue making money off of my work and product without any contribution or significant change to it *themselves*?

      But then, if the creator only gets rights for the length of their own life, are publishers and movie makers going to want to accept material from authors who are in their golden years? Hell no - because they can't make money off the material very long.

      So we have the situation we have now. Life of the creator plus.. however long. It sucks, I know.. but what other solution is there? I think it's wrong for material to never return to public domain, but I also think it's wrong to force someone to put their material out in the public for other people to make money off of while they're still alive. What if I'm living in a cardboar box but Random House is still running the 74th printing of my book and raking in cash for themselves? That's just wrong.

    14. Re:Hasn't this already been settled? by Jeff+DeMaagd · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I don't think stopping production means that it isn't profitable. I think Disney does this with the intent of maximizing its profit.

      Often Disney stops production of a video title and lets the market go without new copies for seven or so years then re-releases it. I think under the idea of abandonware, it has been abandoned for seven years.

    15. Re:Hasn't this already been settled? by jeffkjo1 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Somehow the 28 years system worked for over 150 years.

    16. Re:Hasn't this already been settled? by Chris+Burke · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The only reason we allow the author to have an unnatural monopoly on his idea is so that it is easier for them to attempt to profit off the idea, as an incentive to create the idea in the first place. Eventually, that idea is supposed to pass into and enrich the public domain. That is the purpose of copyright.

      If you are no longer making that idea available, then what exactly are the people gaining from your artificial monopoly? What are you gaining? Nothing. The reason for the monopoly is no longer valid.

      If you don't want a work published, the solution is simple: Don't publish. If you have published it, but later decided you didn't want to... Well, it's too late, in any event.

      Copyright is a bargain between the public and authors. When the public is not benefitting from the bargain, then it should be reevaluated. When neither side is benefitting, then the bargain should be abandoned.

      --

      The enemies of Democracy are
    17. Re:Hasn't this already been settled? by panthro · · Score: 1

      I realize that, which is why there would subsequently need to be a legal definition of abandonware (well, it would actually be a definition of !abandonware) as many people have pointed out. However, this type of legal decision would put the onus on Disney in this case to renew their copyright by making sure their stuff fits the !abandonware definition, whatever that requires on their part. That way, if a company really does abandon the product, it will automatically lapse into abandonware status and won't be held stagnant by a dead copyright.

      --
      If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
    18. Re:Hasn't this already been settled? by Misch · · Score: 2, Insightful

      "I don't want my work released, ever, so any old copies out there can degrade until they are unuseable but no one can make any new copies."????

      Yes, the author is allowed to put their works away in a vault with a bomb on a timer that will go off at some point in the future.

      While there are criminal and civil statutes surrounding copyright now, copyright has been more of a social contract than anything else. This social contract says basically "Sure, you can control the creative expression of the idea for a limited time, but after the limited time, all of society may benefit from your idea".

      --

      --You will rephrase your request for me to go to hell. Goto statements are not acceptable programming constructs
    19. Re:Hasn't this already been settled? by David+Hume · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure that I agree with the "so many years after his lifetime" part of our current law.


      The reason for the "so many years after his lifetime" part of the law is to provide a monetary incentive to old people (or people who otherwise have reason to believe they are near death) to write creative works. Assume you are 80 years old, in poor health, and trying to decide to make that last, great effort to write a last novel... and an attorney advises you that as soon as you die your work will pass into the public domain and that your spouse, children, etc. will not benefit economically from your work.

    20. Re:Hasn't this already been settled? by lukewarmfusion · · Score: 1

      Good call. I thought about that after I posted... unfortunately, it's sometimes abused. I can see someone wanting to pass those profits on to their kids, though.

    21. Re:Hasn't this already been settled? by NoMoreNicksLeft · · Score: 1

      How about the Pancho Villa silent movie?

      Is that something a bit more serious, something that is worthy of historical importance?

      If not, what would be important enough? Or are you one of these people that thinks nothing is so important that it is worth saving?

      "Lost to posterity" is fucking lame.

    22. Re:Hasn't this already been settled? by squiggleslash · · Score: 1

      Interesting. Does AMIX run under UAE?

      --
      You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
    23. Re:Hasn't this already been settled? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because you're allowed to renew if it's still making you money. Once it STOPS making you money, then you don't renew. At that point, why shouldn't someone else make money from it if they can?

      Besides, who says you can spend a few months (even a few years) writing the great American novel, then loaf around for the rest of your life? You should not be supported in laziness at the expense of the public domain.

    24. Re:Hasn't this already been settled? by saintp · · Score: 1
      One particular paragraph from the Stanford CIS site reminded me of abandonware:
      ...[Many books fall into a nether region. These are works that are not commercially viable and therefore not widely available to the public, but are nevertheless subject to continuing copyright protection. The Internet Archive wants to include many of these books, which we refer to as ?orphan works,? in the Million Book Project, but current law makes that very difficult.

      Requiring even renewal would eliminate this problem; the more-than-generous term of 28 years (the original term of a copyright?) was mentioned also on the CIS site. If someone doesn't want to copyright a work, there are a wealth of public licences out there (I certainly don't need to mention the most famous) to let them give their work to the public, but freeing a work requires positive action.

      For authors (etc.) who have abandoned their work, though, it should be freed by default: requiring renewal of copyright would let Disney keep their mouse, but would also free lots of IP that has been long abandoned by their authors (70 years of protection is a long time!). It seems to be a darn good compromise, if nothing else.

    25. Re:Hasn't this already been settled? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The reason for the "so many years after his lifetime" part of the law is to provide a monetary incentive to old people (or people who otherwise have reason to believe they are near death) to write creative works. Assume you are 80 years old, in poor health, and trying to decide to make that last, great effort to write a last novel... and an attorney advises you that as soon as you die your work will pass into the public domain and that your spouse, children, etc. will not benefit economically from your work.


      True. However, this is settled easily enough (and better, IMO), by having a set period of time from the creation of the work, or possibly (and probably better) from the application for copyright, for example, 20 years, that the copyright will last, whether the author is dead or alive during that duration. Renewals beyond a couple decades or so are simply not necessary and serve to keep a work out of the public domain longer. Granted, the author might benefit from the work that much longer if he's still distributing it, but he's already had 20 years (or so) to do that, which is long enough.
    26. Re:Hasn't this already been settled? by AJWM · · Score: 4, Interesting

      While I wouldn't have chosen your examples, I agree with your point.

      An example closer to home: 20 years ago I wrote the original CoSy software used by, among others, the BIX conferencing system. The original copyright was held by University of Guelph, they later sold (some?) rights to a company called SoftWords. When BIX eventually closed up shop, a number of Bixen wanted to keep up the community on their own CoSy system. SoftWords hadn't been selling the software in some years, but an appeal to both U of G and SoftWords got them to agree to release CoSy under the GPL.

      Problem was, neither of them had a readily available copy of the source nor were they inclined to spend much effort digging for it.

      Fortunately, I still had a copy (ancient but readable), and the project lives on on Sourceforge. (The "son of BIX" lives on as Noise Level Zero, nlzero.com).

      But what if Softwords had gone out of business, the assets dissipated and nobody even knew who had the rights to the software anymore? (Hmm, sounds a bit like Unix in some ways). That's certainly abandonware, but under the current law it wouldn't be public domain for another 75 or so years.

      --
      -- Alastair
    27. Re:Hasn't this already been settled? by dissy · · Score: 1

      > If the author doesn't want the work released, he should have the right to keep it that way.

      Yes, he has that right, but the 'cost' for getting a copyright on your work is that it is given to the public at the end of the copyright term.

      If you dont wanna pay, the copyright game you aint gunna play.

      And if you want it to be not released, he should not release it, concidering it has no copyright to protect it. All copys made are legal at that point, as there is no law to protect aginst it.

      Gotta pick one or the other, you can't have your cake and eat it too.

    28. Re:Hasn't this already been settled? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If the author doesn't want the work released, he should have the right to keep it that way.

      Sure, why not. He can keep it that way. But there's no obligation for the rest of society to help him out.

      Why should we provide laws to protect this content? Why should we let this guy use our justice system to protect his work, or fill our prisons with violators of his copyright.

      Seems to me that copyright promises authors certain protections in exchange for the eventual release of their works into the public domain. If authors aren't willing to eventually release their works, then why are they entitled to any special protection? How does it benefit society?

      This author may have rights, but we aren't beholden to help him secure those rights unless doing so is a benefit to society as a whole.

    29. Re:Hasn't this already been settled? by AJWM · · Score: 1

      The copyright holder often stops distributing the work before the copyright term is up.

      Quite true, especially in the case of print media (books, etc), (and old TV shows). The key point here (which some other posters miss) is that the author is not necessarily the copyright holder.

      Too many new authors naively sign over "all rights" (or even just "all book rights") to the publisher and are then out of luck if the publisher lets the work go out of print. Savvy authors will insist on a "reversion of rights" clause in the contract, to the effect that if the book goes out of print for a certain specified length of time, the rights revert to the author who is then free to shop the book around to a different publisher.

      In the case of works for hire or corporate authorship, when there is no readily identified individual author(s), it would make sense to have some similar "reversion of rights" clause in copyright law -- if you don't make the work available for some period of years, the copyright lapses. This was the idea behind renewal of copyright, I think. Sure, the publisher can get around that by doing a limited press run every few years, if that's worth it to them. If not, then they shouldn't have a problem with letting the copyright expire.

      --
      -- Alastair
    30. Re:Hasn't this already been settled? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Note : Posted AC for a reason (see below)?

      If the author doesn't want the work released, he should have the right to keep it that way.

      In which case the author should not release it for publication. Put it in a safe and throw away the key or burn it.

      And what if the author can't be tracked down, if the author was ever known at all? Part of the "formalities" of registering means that the author is known and can be tracked down. That is no longer the case (and is one facet of this case).

      Keep in mind too that AFAIK under current law, this message is copyrighted. Would you, as a potential publisher, be able to find out who I am in order to ask permission to reprint?

    31. Re:Hasn't this already been settled? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      I'm sorry but I guess you have no idea as to what copyright is here in the USA.

      It is a LIMITED license to have complete control for a limited time of your wirk with the limitation that your Amazing, fantastic world changing work becomes the property of the entire planet,solar system,galaxy at the end of that time.

      Yes your "property" will be ripped from you and given to everyone on the plnet for free while we ridicule you.

      Granted scumbags like Sonny Bono and other complete nimrods have bastardized american copyright law to become pretty much a perpetual copyright which in it's self very wrong but is not the issue at hand.

      if the author doesn't want it released, he should have NEVER copyrighted it in the first place. I.E. keep it secret, hidden, or destroyed.

      If you ever release something, then it is out there forever and ever unless you go and KILL everyon that has seen it.

      the MPAA learned this as DeCSS allows people to view the DVD's at will without the content or viewing controls that CSS provides (no copy protection is part of CSS... understand that?)

      the RIAA is learning that you cant kill mp3's or music sharing, something that has been happening cince the 1950's anyways....

      it's about time that programmers and writers learn.. YOU DONT OWN ANYTHING! IT IS THE PROPERTY OF THE PLANET AND YOU HAVE A LIMITED LICESNE TO EXPLOIT IT...

      got it?

    32. Re:Hasn't this already been settled? by Waffle+Iron · · Score: 1
      If I create a work for personal benefit, and then others benefit but I do not - then copyright has failed.

      Wrong. The US constitution says what copyright is for -- to promote "To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts". If you choose to sit on your work and keep it unavailable decades after you made it, that's not "useful"; copyright has failed.

      I simply would not create any more work.

      What a baby. "Somebody might copy my work 28 years from now and I won't be able to stop them. I'm just going to be a used car salesman instead. That'll show 'em!"

    33. Re:Hasn't this already been settled? by royalblue_tom · · Score: 2, Insightful

      After 20 years, nothing would stop *everyone* (including you) from publishing your story (not book - that is just a representation of your story), so it could now be provided at cost (plus a small margin), rather than an artificially enhanced price a monopoly brings.

      Honestly, how much money should you be allowed to rake in from something. If you can't profit from it in TWENTY YEARS, do you honestly think it is worth anything. How many publishers or movie distributors are going to see the latest novel/film, and say - screw them, I can publish it for free if I wait twenty years?

      What is this "I'm still alive so it's mine" fixation? That logic got extended to - who will feed my kids when I die? Now we have life + XX years ... where does it stop?

    34. Re:Hasn't this already been settled? by shotfeel · · Score: 1

      Let me turn that last point around a little.

      Say you have no more potential to benefit from a given work, but others can benefit from it. If that work does not pass into the public domain, I'd say copyright has failed -has it not? Those are the works we're talking about. No commercial value but significant social/cultural value.

      Keep in mind that money does not have to change hands in order for there to be a "benefit".

    35. Re:Hasn't this already been settled? by Anthony+Boyd · · Score: 2, Insightful

      SydShamino has his finger on the pulse. He's pretty accurate. In fact, SydShamino, would it be OK to copy a sentence or two from your post for the Respect The Public Domain Web site? I'd probably put some of the text from your fourth paragraph onto the following page:

      http://www.respectthepublicdomain.org/what.html

      I think your wording is more succinct and accurate than mine.

    36. Re:Hasn't this already been settled? by krlynch · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Just to clarify: The Constitution provides Congress the authority to legislate copyright into existence:

      To promote the progress of science and useful arts, by securing for limited times to authors and inventors the exclusive right to their respective writings and discoveries

      The form of copyright restrictions that you mention were authorized by Congress through various laws down through the last 200 or so years of history ... they are not present in the Constitution itself.

    37. Re:Hasn't this already been settled? by LihTox · · Score: 1
      The constitution originally provided that all works had to apply for copyright to be copyrighted and that these copyrights had to apply for a renewal at some point to maintain copyright. A recent law changed these requirements.

      "Abandonware" would be a copyrighted work that was not renewed.

      This gives me an idea for a compromise:

      1. All created material is copyrighted from the moment of creation, no registration required, for a relatively short period of time: 10-20 years, say.
      2. At the end of this period, the copyright can be registered for an additional period of 50 years, or 50 years after the creator's death, or whatever you want it to be. Or maybe require registration every x years, up until the limit. Material that isn't registered at the appropriate time becomes public domain.
      This protects the typical author, composer, musician, corporation, or what have you who is making money on the copyright, just as it does now. It allows the typical programmer to release code under the GPL without having to register it. It allows people to prevent distribution of their creations without it becoming abandonware. On the other hand, when a creator no longer cares about a given work, or a corporation fails and no one is looking after their copyrights, the material falls into the public domain where it can be preserved.
    38. Re:Hasn't this already been settled? by 91degrees · · Score: 1

      I accept that it's bad to have strong copyright restrictions on abandonware, but unconstitutional? I can't see any real evidence for this. I can't see how it can be unconstitutional, when non-automatic copyright is not.

      Not that this case is a bad idea. It's useful to make the public aware that copyright has some negative side effects. However, I really doubt that it will be succesful.

    39. Re:Hasn't this already been settled? by threat_or_menace · · Score: 2, Interesting

      To the person who writes "That line of thinking has caused thousands of hours of vintage TV programming to be lost forever" I can only say "oh, the humanity! I tremble with the loss to the ages to which follow!" To the folks who point out that lifetime (or close to it) copyright is what some here think is okay, and that that's oh so European of us, I'm thinking this: I'd like to distinguish between copyrights accrued to human beings and corporate entities. In the case of a single human being, yes, I think that absolute control over publication should exist as long as does the person. Once the person is dead, or if the work was never generated by an individual to start with but by a subhuman entity such as Microsoft then yes, I can see not giving them creative control. In current US law, this approach won't work; corporations are people and get the whole bill of rights, because the law is an ass and has been settled for more than 100 years on this point. If it works in Europe, great. Go for it. also, please note: I distinguish here between copyright and patent. In software, I realize, that's a way less clean distinction than in door hinges or sonnets. In this particular case, I can't be sure who I like less, Kahle or Ashcroft. I know more about Ashcroft lately, so it'd probably be him, but man oh man do I dislike Kahle. Please remember, his internet archive project was something he just decided to do because he could. When he first cut loose his spiders and started hoovering the nascent web, he made no effort to drum up consensus over what he could and could not inhale. I see his arguments now as his hope to be able to break out, down the road, his archive of things from the early days, legally. Fortunately for me, at the time I was attending a school with an asskicking legal department. I wrote the archive a note suggesting that they'd needed to tell more end-developers about their plans, and they wrote back and acted, in essence, as if I was telling Galileo that the Earth was the center of the Universe. A bit back, I went and looked - and to my delight discovered that that entire university's student websites from the time had been pulled out of Kahle's archive. Not because of anything I'd done, I don't believe, but because it was a big school with a real legal department and they asserted copyright on their students' behalf. And more power to them. But I also know that that's only for now, it sounds as if he'd like to pull a google and do an ex post facto rule change on all of us who were working or fucking around on the net at the time. I suspect, that as with Dejanews and Google, he's hoping to make a buck out of bringing that long-dead shit back to life. So, my problem is this: no one on earth could reasonably have expected Ashcroft to know any better. He's behaving pretty much as expected, rolling around in post-911 legislation happy like a pig in shit. Kahle, on the other hand, is in a whole different ethical landscape. He could and should have started out being much more overt about his plans, and much less snippy with people who, shortly after he went live, heard about it a little too late and wrote him.

    40. Re:Hasn't this already been settled? by drsmithy · · Score: 1
      Why should I only be allowed to make money off of my great american novel for 20 years and then for the rest of my life, a bunch of knock-off publishing houses can redistribute my novel without paying me - yet they continue making money off of my work and product without any contribution or significant change to it *themselves*?

      Why should you be able to make money off a single piece of work for the rest of your life, simply because of an arbitrary legal fiction, when no other form of work allows that to be done ?

      It sucks, I know.. but what other solution is there?

      1. Define copyright term by return on investment (once you've made as much money as it cost to create the work - maybe plus a bit more - it's public domain) and 2. Only allow for-profit reproduction of copyrighted works by the copyright holder or their agent (so only you can actually make money off your work). Given the primary practical reason for copyright is to allow the generation of revenue via a legally-gifted monopoly, it makes vastly more sense to define the term of that monopoly by the revenue generated rather than by some arbitrary figure snatched out of the air.

      I think it's wrong for material to never return to public domain, but I also think it's wrong to force someone to put their material out in the public for other people to make money off of while they're still alive.

      I think it's wrong someone can be paid for their entire life for 6 months work. I sure as hell don't get paid a cent today for work I did 6 months ago, I get paid for the work I do today. Pretty much the only reason you can make big money off "intellectual property" *at all* is because the of the legal fiction society (historically, at least) has gifted to you.

      What if I'm living in a cardboard box but Random House is still running the 74th printing of my book and raking in cash for themselves? That's just wrong.

      No, that's capitalism. If you're to stupid/naive/lazy to make money - or use the money you make to plan for your future - then tough luck.

    41. Re: Hasn't this already been settled? by gidds · · Score: 1

      Interesting. Do you know if/how the version you wrote is related to the (apparently much changed) version of CoSy that CIX still uses?

      --

      Ceterum censeo subscriptionem esse delendam.

    42. Re:Hasn't this already been settled? by Sloppy · · Score: 1
      If the author doesn't want the work released, he should have the right to keep it that way.
      Then he shouldn't have released it.

      Besides, the purpose of copyright is to encourage release. If someone doesn't want to release something, then there's no reason for the rest of us to grant them copyright.

      --
      As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
    43. Re:Hasn't this already been settled? by cpt+kangarooski · · Score: 1

      ???

      First it was 14+14, then it was 28+14, then it was 28+28, until the 1976 Act took effect.

      So terms have ranged from as short as 14 years to as long as (with renewal) 56 years.

      But yeah, generally, terms should be short. I'd favor 5 years with equal renewals (except for software) of up to 25 years total. Seems reasonable.

      --
      -- This and all my posts are in the public domain. I am a lawyer. I am not your lawyer, and this is not legal advice.
    44. Re:Hasn't this already been settled? by Golias · · Score: 1

      That's almost what the current law is, where x = 120. The only exception being that registration (or some other proof of the date of creation) is require to prove that somebody else stole your creative output. Lawsuits have been won by people who have mailed manuscripts to themselves and used the postmark to prove when they wrote it.

      --

      Information wants to be anthropomorphized.

    45. Re:Hasn't this already been settled? by cpt+kangarooski · · Score: 1

      You're right in that it would have failed, but you are not up to snuff with your grasp of 18th century English.

      While you could always look in the OED to see what 'science' and 'art' meant in 1789, it's easier here for us to look at the structure of the clause.

      Science and useful Arts
      Authors and Inventors
      Writings and Discoveries

      The first member of every pair relates to copyright. Back when the Constitution was written, 'science' meant knowledge generally. Not just the physical sciences as today. The second member of every pair relates to patents. 'Arts' meant something like practical skills. The fine arts were arts, but so was technology. Thus 'useful Arts' since patents were not meant to be granted to pointless endeavors. (e.g. you can't get a patent for a perpetual motion machine, in part because they're impossible and you couldn't invent one anyway)

      In the late 19th century or so, the meanings of both tended to narrow down, ironically pretty much flip flopping.

      --
      -- This and all my posts are in the public domain. I am a lawyer. I am not your lawyer, and this is not legal advice.
    46. Re:Hasn't this already been settled? by cpt+kangarooski · · Score: 1

      The problem with that of course is that your widow, children, etc. will not benefit economically from your work ANYWAY.

      Creative works are a dime a dozen. They're generally worthless. A small number of them have some value initially, but then are worthless in a span of weeks to years. Only the teeniest, tiniest handful have lasting value beyond a few years, much less decades.

      If you want your surviving family to be provided for after your death, you would be the world's biggest fool to think that authorship was the way to do this. Unless you happened to be a famous and highly successful author in the first place, but if that's the case, you're already successful and already have a shitload of money (unless you squandered it) and don't really need the extra help that long terms would provide.

      Instead, if you want to provide for them, get life insurance, invest wisely, etc. The same things that everyone does.

      And I stress everyone, because it is patently unfair to burden everyone with the harm your long copyright would impose, when they don't really have the same opportunity, and besides which, the whole system is not going to help you anyway. If careful estate planning is good enough for the rest of the world, why isn't it good enough for artists?

      Long terms benefit the Disneys of the world. But they don't need our help to be rolling in dough anyway.

      The poor widow of the artist that would be saved by long terms is a myth. And to the extent that it does exist, social security, insurance, savings, etc. are all a zillion times better at helping them than copyrights ever will be.

      --
      -- This and all my posts are in the public domain. I am a lawyer. I am not your lawyer, and this is not legal advice.
    47. Re:Hasn't this already been settled? by berzerke · · Score: 1

      ...Just because you can't find it easily doesn't mean that it should be free for the taking...

      Of course, if the author wants to keep the copyright, then it's generally in the author's best interest to be easy to find. If someone can't find you to license the work from you, you effectively give up the licensing fees (because it doesn't get licensed).

    48. Re: Hasn't this already been settled? by AJWM · · Score: 1

      Well, it's ancestral to it ;-)

      More seriously, there are some CIX folks on NLZero and they've been tweaking their GUI front end to work with it (current CoSy). Beyond that it's been a long time since I (briefly) signed on to CIX so I can't really say. (There's also a Japanese version, MIX, originally (and still?) sponsored by Nikkei Byte magazine. The software was also installed at several universities.)

      --
      -- Alastair
    49. Re:Hasn't this already been settled? by SydShamino · · Score: 1

      >> Keep in mind that money does not have to change hands in order for there to be a "benefit".

      Indeed. The GPL is in part based on this (though it is clearly different from the public domain).

      --
      It doesn't hurt to be nice.
    50. Re: Hasn't this already been settled? by gidds · · Score: 1
      it's been a long time since I (briefly) signed on to CIX so I can't really say

      Well, whatever the relationship, it's still going strong. There's a new web front end, and supporting middleware, but the back-end CoSy hasn't changed much over the last few years. It's still keeping thousands of us in touch (mostly via OLRs) and busy nattering every day, so I guess we owe you some thanks! [fx: raises glass]

      --

      Ceterum censeo subscriptionem esse delendam.

    51. Re:Hasn't this already been settled? by SydShamino · · Score: 1

      That sounds fine with me. However, let me take some time to read your site tonight, and then I'll email you with me real name.

      --
      It doesn't hurt to be nice.
    52. Re:Hasn't this already been settled? by PCM2 · · Score: 1
      If you don't want a work published, the solution is simple: Don't publish. If you have published it, but later decided you didn't want to... Well, it's too late, in any event.
      I'm sorry, but you're being too simplistic. Current copyright law protects even unpublished works. Every work I create is protected automatically, whether I publish it or not. If I'm walking down the street and an article I've written flies out of my briefcase and lands on the ground, you cannot pick it up and publish it in your magazine. So in a sense, copyright law is what allows me to decide that I'm not going to publish something in the first place.

      And yes, I am the public. So the public does benefit.

      --
      Breakfast served all day!
    53. Re:Hasn't this already been settled? by Kelson · · Score: 1

      But then, if the creator only gets rights for the length of their own life, are publishers and movie makers going to want to accept material from authors who are in their golden years? Hell no - because they can't make money off the material very long.

      On the subject of movies, that's not a problem.

      Case 1: You write a script for a studio. That's work for hire, and the studio is the author.

      Case 2: You write a book on your own, and sell the movie rights to a studio. The movie is a distinct work, derived with your permission from your book, and the studio is the author of the movie.

      Suppose you die five years later, and your copyright expires with you. In case 1, the studio still has exclusive rights to the film and the script until their copyright expires. In case 2, the studio still has exclusive rights to the film, but another studio can do their own adaptation of the book.

      Either way, the studio's claim on the movie itself is unaffected by the end of your copyrights.

    54. Re:Hasn't this already been settled? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      I might be bothered to read your post next time if you can be bothered to break up the paragraphs.

    55. Re:Hasn't this already been settled? by Chris+Burke · · Score: 1

      I'm sorry, but you're being too simplistic. Current copyright law protects even unpublished works. Every work I create is protected automatically, whether I publish it or not. If I'm walking down the street and an article I've written flies out of my briefcase and lands on the ground, you cannot pick it up and publish it in your magazine. So in a sense, copyright law is what allows me to decide that I'm not going to publish something in the first place.

      Yes, yes, I know that. I'm saying that if you have published your work, and later decide to stop, or that you never wanted to in the first place -- tough. Your work is going to eventually (sooner than later if the Kahle/Prelinger v. Ashcroft goes through, and you don't renew your copyright) become public domain, and you can't stop that just because you wish it wouldn't happen, nor should you be able to.

      If your story flies out of your briefcase, then of course nobody is allowed to publish it.

      Until your copyright expires. Then they can.

      And yes, I am the public. So the public does benefit.

      No, you're the author. "The public" means "the people" not "one person, who happens to be one of the people".

      --

      The enemies of Democracy are
    56. Re:Hasn't this already been settled? by flossie · · Score: 1
      you can't get a patent for a perpetual motion machine, in part because they're impossible and you couldn't invent one anyway

      Nonsense. Tie a piece of buttered toast to the back of a cat and drop it over a very expensive carpet. Instant perpetual motion machine!

      (For the hard of thinking: cats always land on their feet; toast always lands butter-side down - natural laws of the universe)

    57. Re:Hasn't this already been settled? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      If I'm walking down the street and an article I've written flies out of my briefcase and lands on the ground, you cannot pick it up and publish it in your magazine.

      Prove it fell out of your briefcase. Beyond reasonable doubt, Can you point to a prior publication? If you haven't published it, you won't be able to use copyright law to prevent it from being published. In theory copyright law might protect it, but in practice, copyright law only protects published work.

    58. Re:Hasn't this already been settled? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      • To the person who writes "That line of thinking has caused thousands of hours of vintage TV programming to be lost forever" I can only say "oh, the humanity! I tremble with the loss to the ages to which follow!"
      You just negated the work of thousands of artists. Hope you're happy, dickweed.
    59. Re:Hasn't this already been settled? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't believe so. I think it requires at least an 030, meaning MMU. From what I understand, it's a major bitch to even try to install without the tape drive. I might want to try it on my 3000, if I can ever get it to recognize it's fastram again.

    60. Re:Hasn't this already been settled? by mefus · · Score: 1

      Why should I only be allowed to make money off of my great american novel for 20 years and then for the rest of my life, a bunch of knock-off publishing houses can redistribute my novel without paying me - yet they continue making money off of my work and product without any contribution or significant change to it *themselves*?

      You obviously aren't an author. Ask Philip K. Dick what life as an author is really like.

      Life is already like that for most authors, and besides, accepting material from "old" authors will not affect the ticket sales at the box office, or book sales. That's where the initial profit is and the reasonable profit. Refusing to let a culture do something creative with something that's become it's icon (like, mickey) is defiance of the culture, or an assertion of control over it.

      --
      mefus
      In Open Society, GPL Software frees YOU!
    61. Re:Hasn't this already been settled? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      i'm smoking it, bitch

    62. Re:Hasn't this already been settled? by poot_rootbeer · · Score: 1

      If the author doesn't want the work released, he should have the right to keep it that way.

      THE HELL HE DOES.


      So if I were to ask you for a copy of a book report you wrote for school when you were 12 years old, you would gladly and quickly provide me one?
      Unless you DESTROYED PART OF HISTORY by throwing that crap away once you no longer saw value in it.

    63. Re: Hasn't this already been settled? by AJWM · · Score: 1

      Cheers!

      And, you're welcome.

      --
      -- Alastair
    64. Re:Hasn't this already been settled? by PCM2 · · Score: 1

      You forgot to say IANAL.

      --
      Breakfast served all day!
    65. Re:Hasn't this already been settled? by uncoveror · · Score: 1
      Just because you can't find it easily doesn't mean that it should be free for the taking.

      Why not? Copyright is nothing but a form of censorship. If an idea, once expressed cannot be re-expressed without permission and/or payment, then freedom of expression has no meaning. The framers of the constitution thought this form of censorship would be a goos thing so long as it was temporary and "to promote the progress of science and the useful arts." Locking up software so no one can use it, or any other form of creative expression has ceased to serve that purpose. Perhaps it never did.

      --
      The Uncoveror: It's the real news.
    66. Re:Hasn't this already been settled? by lukewarmfusion · · Score: 1

      I think the major conflict in our points of view is this:

      I believe that a person should be able to profit from their own work. Even if that work is "intellectual property."

      Some people believe that such property is actually owned by everyone - not just the creator of that work. That means that others can profit from someone else's work.

      I can't afford to spend the time writing any of the many books I have ideas for. I have to make money to pay the bills, and writing novels won't make that money (not at first, anyway). Take away copyright protections and I'll never be able to write those books. I just can't afford it.

      How many authors do you know spent their lives writing books for free?

      Copyright is not censorship. It's an enabler. I hate it, but I have to agree with the fact that no drug company would spend billions to develop a drug and then give the recipe away. They wouldn't have the money to develop it, and they wouldn't get anything back for their hard work and investment.

    67. Re:Hasn't this already been settled? by EndlessNameless · · Score: 1

      :::So if I were to ask you for a copy of a book report you wrote for school when you were 12 years old, you would gladly and quickly provide me one? Unless you DESTROYED PART OF HISTORY by throwing that crap away once you no longer saw value in it.

      Worst. Argument. Ever.

      Seriously... his gradeschool book report wasn't intended for public distribution, had no intended impact upon social evolution, and was not developed for profit.

      There's a huge difference between works that were knowingly released to the public and later were "rescinded" by the creator and works that either never were intended for at-large consumption or never were deemed fit for it.

      --

      ---
      According to the latest ruleset, this post should be modded as Vorpal Flamebait +5.
    68. Re:Hasn't this already been settled? by coyotedata · · Score: 1

      the tv was lost due to not filming it or using film that fell apart or taping over shows a la Dan Rather interviewing JFK I.

    69. Re:Hasn't this already been settled? by coyotedata · · Score: 1

      It is only abandoned after the time has run.

    70. Re:Hasn't this already been settled? by Scudsucker · · Score: 1

      That line of thinking has caused thousands of hours of vintage TV programming to be lost forever.

      Dr. Who anyone? The BBC had a policy of throwing out old film to free up storage space. Many of the episodes for the first two doctors have been lost. A few episodes have been recovered from people's basements, but if the content industries broadcast flag had existed 35 years ago, that would have been impossible.

    71. Re:Hasn't this already been settled? by iainl · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure if AMIX can run UAE (though I'd imagine that a port wouldn't be impossible), but I do remember there being a port of UAE for the standard AmigaOS A4000. Because there are several games that UAE makes a better job of pretending to be a basic A500 than the 4000's compatibility mode does.

      To this day, I have to play a disk image of Spindizzy Worlds on my PC because the A1200 won't run the real thing. :(

      --
      "I Know You Are But What Am I?"
    72. Re:Hasn't this already been settled? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      So does the author have the right to say "I don't want my work released, ever, so any old copies out there can degrade until they are unuseable but no one can make any new copies."????

      Answer honestly. Do you believe that this is true, that an original content creator has perpetual rights to control the use of his work?

      If so, congratulations, you believe in the European model of copyright, where it is an inherent right of a person.


      I agree with your line of thought but I question the assertion that "the European model of copyright, where [copyright] is an inherent right of a person." As far as I know the US and European models don't differ at all in this respect; that is to say the "public domain is an inherent right" in Europe too. There is a part of European copyright law that allows an author to claim authorship rights but this isn't anything to do with copyright in the traditional sense. It exists only so that a work has correct attribution even if the copyright is owned by someone else, eg. a record company. Is this what you are thinking of, or is there something I've missed.
    73. Re:Hasn't this already been settled? by iainl · · Score: 1

      So does the author have the right to say "I don't want my work released, ever, so any old copies out there can degrade until they are unuseable but no one can make any new copies."????

      Aaaah, someone hitting the nail on the head. While I fully respect the right of an author to say "I don't want my work released", I do have some problems with authors who, having released a work that millions of people have enjoyed for years, decides that they don't want people to see it any more.

      I could come up with more 'intelligent' examples if I tried (Kubrick and Coppola both insisting that DVD releases of some of their films be reframed from the cinema, perhaps) but Lucas is the prime culprit. I have the Trilogy as I remember them on Laserdisc, but I know many that don't, and I also know that one day my player and discs will expire. Is the historical revisionism of these films really The Right Thing?

      --
      "I Know You Are But What Am I?"
    74. Re:Hasn't this already been settled? by meringuoid · · Score: 1
      An interesting consequence of this line of thinking: Lucas will _have_ to release the Han Shoots First Edition, or else it becomes free.

      Either way, I'm happy.

      --
      Real Daleks don't climb stairs - they level the building.
    75. Re:Hasn't this already been settled? by uncoveror · · Score: 1

      Public libraries didn't kill book publishers. Online ones won't either, neither will file trading kill the recording industry. Stopping the concept of a public library from going online, whether for books or for music, is so censorship.

      If profit is the only thing that means anything, then I guess public libraries have got to go.

      --
      The Uncoveror: It's the real news.
    76. Re:Hasn't this already been settled? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ask Philip K. Dick what life as an author is really like.

      I can't. Dick is dead. And by "Dick" I mean the author, you perv.

    77. Re:Hasn't this already been settled? by some+guy+I+know · · Score: 1
      The reason for the "so many years after his lifetime" part of the law is to provide a monetary incentive to old people (or people who otherwise have reason to believe they are near death) to write creative works.
      The other reason, of course, is to provide a disincentive to publishers from killing an author so that it could publish an otherwise unobtainable (or only expensively obtainable) work.
      --
      Those who sacrifice security to condemn liberty deserve to repeat history or something. - Benjamin Santayana
    78. Re:Hasn't this already been settled? by hesiod · · Score: 1

      > If the author doesn't want the work released, he should have the right to keep it that way

      If he's dead, his wishes are not at issue. It can only be abandonware after the creator's death. If the family of the deceased copyright holder has an interest in restricting humankind's progress, they can try to extend it after his death.

    79. Re:Hasn't this already been settled? by hesiod · · Score: 2, Insightful

      > I think the major conflict in our points of view is this:
      > I believe that a person should be able to profit from their own work. Even if that work is "intellectual property."
      > Some people believe that such property is actually owned by everyone - not just the creator of that work. That means that others can profit from someone else's work.

      It's easy to look correct when you only offer extreme options. The vast majority of us are between these two visions. We believe that yes, someone should be ABLE (not guaranteed) to profit from his work. FOR A LIMITED TIME. You present the other side as saying "abolish copyright, all work is immediately public domain," which is obviously untrue. You are being quite dishonest in stating the "two sides."

    80. Re:Hasn't this already been settled? by coyotedata · · Score: 1

      Well the def TLS is not being enforced a la Clintonmania

    81. Re:Hasn't this already been settled? by mefus · · Score: 1

      Dick is dead.

      But, his interviews live on, and the statements he makes therein as firm as evah.

      --
      mefus
      In Open Society, GPL Software frees YOU!
    82. Re:Hasn't this already been settled? by lukewarmfusion · · Score: 1

      I don't mean to place everyone within those two categories. I present them as two polar opposites that I'm seeing as the basis of this disagreement, not as a straw man.

      I'm also in the middle somewhere... but a lot of people here are trying to argue the second side. And that's just as evil as giving the copyright holder permanent ownership of his work. Unfortunately, I'm arguing against a lot of open source and free software advocates - that have convinced themselves that such control as copyright provides is evil. Really, their objection should be that this control is abused.

  2. Creative Commons by v_1_r_u_5 · · Score: 5, Informative

    Musicians who are interested in this might also be interested in the creative commons license.

    1. Re:Creative Commons by panthro · · Score: 2, Informative

      Creative Commons licenses can apply to a lot more than just music. They are currently used with writings, visual arts, photography, film/theatre, music, research, and more, and could potentially apply to anything that a copyright can.

      --
      If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
    2. Re:Creative Commons by jsebrech · · Score: 1

      Something I recently discovered, archive.org has tons of music available under terms that allow legal downloading, some of it CC, some of it even good.

    3. Re:Creative Commons by pavon · · Score: 1

      I posted this in another thread but it got buried. If you would like to see abandoned works enter into the public domain, and keep from loosing large portions of our cultural history then you should write your congress critter about the Public Domain Enhancement Act.

    4. Re:Creative Commons by tapin · · Score: 1
      If you would like to see abandoned works enter into the public domain...

      So far so good, I'm all for that.

      and keep from loosing large portions of our cultural history

      ...but now you're toeing the Disney line! After all (says Disney), only pirates and thieves would want to let loose large portions of our cultural history from the bonds of copyright.

      Oh, wait, I see... your 'o' key is stuck. My bad.

  3. Dear Mr. Ashcroft by spun · · Score: 5, Funny

    We have a few things that might help with your plans for world domination. Please take a look at our latest catalog. A man your age could use a nice exoskeleton, or some mutant super powers. We have great deals on lairs of all sorts this month, and I know how you love to hide out in a nice lair.

    Yours in Evil,
    Dr. Freidrich E. DeSpayr, MD, Ph.D, Ev.D
    Chairman and Chief Evil Officer, World Domination LLC

    --
    - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    1. Re:Dear Mr. Ashcroft by spun · · Score: 1, Offtopic

      Moderators of Slashdot! How DARE you mark this post offtopic? Know you not that Mr. Ashcroft was our February 2003 Customer of the Month? We at World Domination LLC do not take lightly to being moderated down. Prepare to meet our blazing hot wrath, you peons!

      Lord Seismodeus
      Marketing Director, World Domination LLC

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    2. Re:Dear Mr. Ashcroft by nycsubway · · Score: 4, Informative

      Ashcroft is a nutcase. He spent $8000 of taxpayers money cover up the bare breasts on the lady of justice statue in Washington DC. Because, as Al Franken says "he didn't want to be photographed next to another boob."

      He also has daily prayer sessions with his staff. Regardless of their faith.

      There are also stories of him asking judges to annoint him with oil when he got into a new position... weird stuff. He's just an all around nut.

    3. Re:Dear Mr. Ashcroft by glenrm · · Score: 1

      Didn't Al Franken send questions to Ashcroft and other conservatives posing as a professor at a major university?
      Also I am sure the prayer session are voluntary if he has them and it is nice to see that he does not exclude others, would you rather there be a Chrisitan only prayer group?
      Know way does he ask judges to annoint him with oil, there maybe stories of him doing this but then there are stories of Hillary Clinton channeling Ghandi on the White House roof and I don't believe those either...

    4. Re:Dear Mr. Ashcroft by pnatural · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Ashcroft is a nutcase. He spent $8000 of taxpayers money cover up the bare breasts on the lady of justice statue in Washington DC. Because, as Al Franken says "he didn't want to be photographed next to another boob."

      If he were a member of the Islam religion and had had similar objections to nakedness, would you take fault with him then?

      He also has daily prayer sessions with his staff. Regardless of their faith.

      Does he require that his staff attend and participate?

      So he should be forbidden from praying? By extension, should all civil servants renounce their religion in order to do their job?

      Again, would you object to this if he was a muslim? Or would you just sit silent?


      There are also stories of him asking judges to annoint him with oil when he got into a new position... weird stuff. He's just an all around nut.


      Have anything to back that up? A link to an eye-witness account of this? Or just more rumors?

      Seems to me you (and many others here) are in the business of Ashcroft FUD.

    5. Re:Dear Mr. Ashcroft by October_30th · · Score: 1
      would you rather there be a Chrisitan only prayer group?

      What business does any religion have in the government?

      --
      The owls are not what they seem
    6. Re:Dear Mr. Ashcroft by PacoTaco · · Score: 1
      There are also stories of him asking judges to annoint him with oil when he got into a new position...

      It's in his book. They used Crisco.

    7. Re:Dear Mr. Ashcroft by sckeener · · Score: 4, Funny

      Let us not forget...Ashcroft lost an election to a dead guy.

      --
      "Only one thing, is impossible for god: to find any sense in any copyright law on the planet." Mark Twain
    8. Re:Dear Mr. Ashcroft by FroMan · · Score: 1

      When he is not on the clock he is free to practice his religion however he wants.

      The supreme court was wrong in its misinterpretation of the consitution saying there is a seperation of church and state. The only requirement is that the government does not create, or establish a state religion. Period.

      Read the 1st amendment again bud.

      --
      Norris/Palin 2012
      Fact: We deserve leaders who can kick your ass and field dress your carcass.
    9. Re:Dear Mr. Ashcroft by October_30th · · Score: 1
      When he is not on the clock he is free to practice his religion however he wants.

      Yeah, I knew that. Just a provaction.

      --
      The owls are not what they seem
    10. Re:Dear Mr. Ashcroft by cicho · · Score: 4, Insightful

      "If he were a member of the Islam religion and had had similar objections to nakedness, would you take fault with him then?"

      I would take fault with anyone who looks at a statue of justice and sees nakedness.

      "So he should be forbidden from praying?"

      On the job? Absolutely, unless he's doing it during his lunch break and in private.

      --
      "Only the small secrets need to be protected. The big ones are kept secret by public incredulity." - Marshall McLuhan
    11. Re:Dear Mr. Ashcroft by Analogy+Man · · Score: 0, Flamebait
      ...and his press conference AFTER loosing to a dead guy had all the venom and hair flopping animation of Hitler in front of the Riechstag. So much so that a friend of mine bought some post production video equipment for the sole purpose of melding the two video clips.

      The folks in the "Show Me State" knew what they were doing when they elected a dead guy ahead of him...little did they know however he would become one of the most powerful people in the world.

      For the record I was worried what would happen to our civil liberties before GW and his posse were sworn into office. 9/11 just added fuel to the fire.

      --
      When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.
    12. Re:Dear Mr. Ashcroft by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Bah! Puny exoskeletons have NOTHING on our battle mechas! Real evil villains need real evil 20-foot-tall fighting robots! Mishima Black Industries will fulfill all your Evil Genius needs, Ashcroft-sama! Please feel free to contact us...all you need to do is give us the Secret Call!

      Sincerely Yours,
      Hell Mishima.

      PS: Baka Friedrich STAY OUT OF MY BUSINESS!

    13. Re:Dear Mr. Ashcroft by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      $8000 to cover the lady of justice statue?

      Wouldn't it have been cheaper to just use a burka?

    14. Re:Dear Mr. Ashcroft by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      If he were a member of the Islam religion and had had similar objections to nakedness, would you take fault with him then?
      He can object all he wants, as long as he doesn't use my money to do it.
      Does he require that his staff attend and participate?
      Various staffers have reported receiving hints that attendance would be used for deciding promotions and such.
      So he should be forbidden from praying? By extension, should all civil servants renounce their religion in order to do their job?
      Straw man. He can pray all he wants, and if he wants to hold a Bible study he can do it elsewhere.
      Again, would you object to this if he was a muslim?
      Even more strenuously. Having been raised Pentecostal, I tend to forget just how extreme their views are.
      There are also stories of him asking judges to annoint him with oil when he got into a new position... weird stuff. He's just an all around nut.

      Have anything to back that up? A link to an eye-witness account of this? Or just more rumors?
      I haven't heard anything about judges, but in his book Lessons from a Father to His Son Ashcroft writes that he anointed himself after being elected governor and senator.
    15. Re:Dear Mr. Ashcroft by pavon · · Score: 1

      On the job? Absolutely, unless he's doing it during his lunch break and in private.

      Why in private? There is nothing about seperation of church and state or freedom of religion that requires public leaders to hide their belief. As long as they are not imposing their religion on others there is no problem.

      Would you also ban politicians from talking at the water cooler, receiving calls from his wife and reading the news? A reasonable amount of personal time at work is acceptable, especially concidering that someone like that is always on call and has a fairly hectic work schedule.

    16. Re:Dear Mr. Ashcroft by FattMattP · · Score: 2, Interesting
      There are also stories of him asking judges to annoint him with oil when he got into a new position... weird stuff. He's just an all around nut.

      Have anything to back that up?

      Sure. Here ya go. First paragraph under the heading "John Ashcroft the Attorney General."

      Here's another. And another. And another. Just look for "oil" on the page.

      --
      Prevent email address forgery. Publish SPF records for y
    17. Re:Dear Mr. Ashcroft by Holi · · Score: 2, Insightful

      And if I don't want to join his prayer group? Do you really believe there would be no repercussions? I tend to believe you would go no further in his administration. It would be hard if not impossible to prove but I bet you would sit and watch the promotions pass you by.

      --
      Sorry, teleporters just kill you and then make a copy. A perfect, soul-less copy.
    18. Re:Dear Mr. Ashcroft by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Why in private? There is nothing about seperation of church and state or freedom of religion that requires public leaders to hide their belief. As long as they are not imposing their religion on others there is no problem.

      Would you also ban politicians from talking at the water cooler, receiving calls from his wife and reading the news? A reasonable amount of personal time at work is acceptable, especially concidering that someone like that is always on call and has a fairly hectic work schedule."

      In this entire point I see nothing about prayer groups. Whether or not he has prayer groups is irrelevant, anyone should be able to pray in public. Forcing people to join prayer groups is an entirely different matter. In any case, if you're going to be that paranoid about repercussions you have to ban any reference to any beliefs in places like school. After all, a teacher could take a person's personal beliefs into account when grading assignments. It goes both ways.

    19. Re:Dear Mr. Ashcroft by ChrisMaple · · Score: 1
      Ashcroft lost because his opponent died. Ashcroft was leading in the polls before the death. The resultant vote was a completely irrational sympathy vote.

      That said, I agree that Ashcroft is a nutcase, and a dangerous one.

      --
      Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
    20. Re:Dear Mr. Ashcroft by starcraftsicko · · Score: 1
      Speaking as a thoughtful Atheist, I thought I'd point out that Atheism is itself a religion, or at the very least it is distinguishable from religion. Like most religion, Atheism centers on the faith of the Atheist that there are no God(s). Certainly this has not been proven, at least not in the scientific sense.

      Do not confuse Atheists with Agnostics.
      "So he should be forbidden from praying?"

      On the job? Absolutely, unless he's doing it during his lunch break and in private.
      Seems to me that you want a religion established here. I shouldn't object, since it is my religion, but I do because I am philosophically consistent (IE not a hypocrite like so many others). If it is right to ban public prayer, then it is equally right to require public prayer. But both are wrong under the US constitution. Under this constitution, government must do neither. The law, and congress are supposed to be silent about this...

      If Ashcroft wants to pray before meetings and shout "Praise Jesus" every time a 13yr old is forced to settle with the RIAA, we should be respectful of his right to do so. If he chooses not to do these things we should tolerate this as well. But if he tells us we must do, or must not do, these things, then he is treading on our liberty. Only then.

      If it is important to you that officials not pray, then vote for officials that do not. If you don't want appointed officials who pray, vote for Presidents (and whatnot) that share your hatred for praying fools. If enough agree with you, then surely you will win.

      But fair warning... Bush, Kerry, and even Nader all have friends who pray. God help us!
    21. Re:Dear Mr. Ashcroft by cicho · · Score: 1

      "Seems to me that you want a religion established here. "

      I agree with what you are saying. I may have made my point too hastily. I don't propose that public display of religious conviction should be prohibited. I was rather trying to say that he shouldn't be praying in his office hours the same way he shouldn't be cutting his toenails in his office hours, unless during lunchtime.

      But more than that, public officials should be particularly careful not to mix their personal convictions with their public duties. What he does on the job is not done by John Ashcroft the private individual, but is done in the name of the government and broader, in the name of the state. When he prays in his office, he's praying in the name of the state, as it were. And that he has no right to do. (Which president was it that caused a furor by publicly stating he didn't like broccoli? It's like that, but with more profound consequences.)

      --
      "Only the small secrets need to be protected. The big ones are kept secret by public incredulity." - Marshall McLuhan
    22. Re:Dear Mr. Ashcroft by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting
      Atheism is not the belief that there are no gods. Atheism is the lack of belief in gods. There is a difference. Atheism does not have anything to do with faith, only a lack of belief, i.e. the lack of belief in a god. To say that atheism has not been proven is true but the problem is that there is nothing to prove. You mention philosophy so I assume that you have some background in this. Atheism is a negative not a positive (if you dont have a philosophy background this statement may not make sense; I'll respond later if necessary). It is true that there are many athiests who say that they believe that God does not exist. But this nonbelief in God is not necessary for atheism. There are many atheists who lack the positive belief "There are no Gods."

      A-theism: without theism. An atheist is a person without a god belief and that is all. A man raised by wolves in the wilderness is an atheist not because he believes that a god does not exist; he is an athiest because he has no conception of what a god is.

      The problem with saying that atheism has not been proven is that the burden of proof lies with the person making the claim. If I say that invisible pink unicorns exist then the burden of proof falls on me. It is my job to prove that they exist, not your job (maybe you are an aunicornist) to prove that they do not. Likewise when a theist makes the claim "A god exists" it is their job to prove the existence, not the job of the atheist.

      An agnostic is a person who believes that man can never have knowledge about a god. An agnostic would say that we can't say if God exists or not because this is impossible information for humans to know. Agnosticism is the positive belief that "Man can never know knowledge about God." While athiesm is the lack of a belief in a god, a negative. Agnosticism is one of the more misunderstood religious beliefs. If you do not believe that man can never have knowledge of God then you are not an agnostic.

      -Al

    23. Re:Dear Mr. Ashcroft by Noren · · Score: 1
      Speaking as a thoughtful Atheist, I thought I'd point out that Atheism is itself a religion, or at the very least it is distinguishable from religion. Like most religion, Atheism centers on the faith of the Atheist that there are no God(s). Certainly this has not been proven, at least not in the scientific sense.

      Do not confuse Atheists with Agnostics.

      The two beliefs are not incompatable, nor is Agnosicism incompatable with Theism. Agnosticism is the epistemological position that knowledge of the existence or non-existence of God is impossible. Agnostic thiests (once known as fidests) are those who do not believe there can be proof of a God but nonetheless believe in one based purely on faith. Pop culture, unable to understand the difference between religion and philosophy, seems to have decided that Agnosicism is on a spectrum between Atheism and Theism where in reality it is a position on a different but related issue.

      Everyone is an athiest toward at least some of the many theistic faiths. Most people nowadays are athiests with respect to Ra, Zeus, Bumba, A'akuluujjusi, Yingarna, Odin, and Quetzalcoatl... or at the very least are atheistic with respect to some of the gods on that list. Most people identifying themselves as atheist are simply atheistic with respect to one more theistic belief system than their 'theistic' counterparts. Furthering the confusion, people who are theistic with respect to god(s) other than the locally popular one(e.g. Hindus in the United States) are sometimes labelled "athiests" by those believing in different god(s).

      Some people label as 'weak atheists' those who lack any faith (I think you're labelling these 'agnostics') and 'strong atheists' those who actively believe that no god exists. I don't really care for those labels, but it is an error to lump all atheists into second category. Calling strong atheists religious is in itself arguable- it seems to me to be a redefinition of the word religious- but a case could be made for it.

      Lacking a belief in any theistic belief system does not constitute a religion, and is accurately described as atheism.

    24. Re:Dear Mr. Ashcroft by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      you're a fucking retard. atheism is not a religeon in any real sense of the word.

      additionally, saying "no prayer in the office or school" isn't an endorcement of atheism, but rather just a statement of "no prayer in the office or school"

      peeps can pray on their own time and in private. to have "prayer time" in schools or at work is nothing more than attention whore shithead policy.

      me saying "you can't have prayer time in school" is like me saying "you can't masturbate in school"

      I don't fucking care if you do it in the privacy of the bathroom or on your own time at home or whatever. there's just no need to do it in front of everyone else other than for the purpose of being an attention whore.

      "look at me! I'm having a spiritual wank fest with my fellow like-minded individuals!"

      get a fucking room.

    25. Re:Dear Mr. Ashcroft by starcraftsicko · · Score: 1
      It is true that there are many athiests who say that they believe that God does not exist. But this nonbelief in God is not necessary for atheism. There are many atheists who lack the positive belief "There are no Gods."
      Um... those who lack such a positive belief can't know that they are Atheists then. It is part of how the human mind works... To have no belief about something means to have no knowlege of something. Once you have knowledge of something, you will believe things about it. In order to interrogate a suspected non-affirming atheist so as to ascertain their status in this discussion, you would necessarily change them to affirming Atheists, else you would discover that they were in fact theists. One cannot spend time thinking on the subject of divinity without having thoughts on the matter. Those thoughts don't go away.

      Let me be clear in this matter. I accept your explanation of Atheism. It is correct in the philosophical sense. But the Atheist, as a practical matter, only exists in the affirming variety. (Actually, I suppose that some young, pre-self-aware children, and some people who are in a permanent vegetative state may qualify as non-affirming atheists, but we'll never know...)

      You seem to be trying to group specific anti-theists [those who disagree with one or all particular theism(s)] into your atheist group, and to produce as a result a large group of atheists who may still have latent beliefs about divinity. To be clear here, people who believe in god(s) specifically (Praise Allah!), and even those who are unsure but have not ruled out the existence of god(s), must all be considered theists. (At least, that is what I consider them. Perhaps we need a word to describe them?)This last group is often considered to be "Agnostic" by the society at large. This link may prove helpful in understanding this.

      Atheists DO have an affirmative belief then. They (we) believe that there IS [no god(s)]. But we can't prove this to everyone's satisfaction, or even to our own (since it is very difficult to prove a negative). Lacking proof, we nonetheless believe this. Why else claim to be atheist? See this.

      A fanatic theist may cry "death to the infidels!" or "Praise Jesus!". He may wish to require compliance with his particular theism and dogma. He may burn or vandalize a restaurant that serves a forbidden food or which does business at an "unholy?" time. A fanatic atheist sees these beliefs and their resulting actions as wasteful since the basis of the theism is false, or even as harmful since it serves to affirm a false belief, but his views are no more "logical" than the views of the fanatic theist.

      Atheism [to the atheist and to any observer] is a religion(check the #4 definition), or at least is [in]distinguishable from religion.
    26. Re:Dear Mr. Ashcroft by starcraftsicko · · Score: 1
      you're a fucking retard. atheism is not a religeon in any real sense of the word.
      Perhaps I am a retard, you insensitive clod! But at least I try to use proper capitalization and spelling so I don't appear to be retarded to the casual reader.
      me saying "you can't have prayer time in school" is like me saying "you can't masturbate in school"
      ...except that there is no clause of the US Constitution that says "Congress shall make no law respecting sexual activity, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."

      So except that they are totally different in legal terms, you're right.

      I think I fed a troll. :-)
    27. Re:Dear Mr. Ashcroft by Rakarra · · Score: 1
      Atheism is not the belief that there are no gods. Atheism is the lack of belief in gods. There is a difference. Atheism does not have anything to do with faith, only a lack of belief, i.e. the lack of belief in a god. To say that atheism has not been proven is true but the problem is that there is nothing to prove. You mention philosophy so I assume that you have some background in this. Atheism is a negative not a positive (if you dont have a philosophy background this statement may not make sense; I'll respond later if necessary). It is true that there are many athiests who say that they believe that God does not exist. But this nonbelief in God is not necessary for atheism. There are many atheists who lack the positive belief "There are no Gods."

      You are confusing atheism with agnosticism. Unfortunately, many atheists and agnostics do this too, and a number of atheists say atheism and agnosticism all fall under the umbrella of atheism, even if there is an important distinction.

      Atheism: A strong belief that there is no God.
      Agnosticism: A lack of belief in God.

      An important subtlety that many miss.

    28. Re:Dear Mr. Ashcroft by starcraftsicko · · Score: 1
      What he does on the job is not done by John Ashcroft the private individual, but is done in the name of the government and broader, in the name of the state. When he prays in his office, he's praying in the name of the state, as it were. And that he has no right to do.
      When he fails to pray in his office, isn't his non-prayer also in the name of the state? If his non-prayer is statutory, isn't the law then speaking to and regulating religious practice? Isn't that unconstitutional?

      In my view a praying person is wasting time that could be spent doing something constructive. He could be wasting time asking his Magic Eight Ball(tm) legal questions... instead he is talking to a supernatural "power" that I know doesn't exist. But I defend his right to do just that!

      I defend it because defending his right to pray, whenever he wants to, even if TV cameras are watching, even if some people aren't comfortable or happy about it, also acts to defend my right to NOT pray, even when others think I should, even when there are TV cameras around, even when my NONPRAYER makes others uncomfortable.

      Mr. Ashcroft is not perfect. He is not the brightest star in the Bush Administration. He is not without faults; he has tons of them. He supports policies which reasonable Americans should question at best and reject at worse.

      But his prayer, no matter how obnoxious you or I find it, is not a subject of reasonable criticism.
    29. Re:Dear Mr. Ashcroft by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Perhaps I am a retard, you insensitive clod! But at least I try to use proper capitalization and spelling so I don't appear to be retarded to the casual reader."

      OMG!!! LOL WTF LMAO LOL LOL LOL!@@!!!!!111

      You got me there! The fact I miscapped and misspelt obviously means you're not a retard!

      "..except that there is no clause of the US Constitution that says "Congress shall make no law respecting sexual activity, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." "

      yes there is. It's the goddamn first amendment which states, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."

      On top of that we've recently had a nice scotus ruling that specified state anti-sodomy laws were unconstitutional. This would seem to indicate to me that "Congress shall make no law respecting sexual activity, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."

      Furthermore, the establishment clause would seem to indicate that while the government can't necessarily show preference for one religion over another, it also can't outright ban any specific religion.

      Loose translation: government setting aside prayer time or specifying "One nation, under God" as a proper noun denoting the Christian god rather than "One nation, under a god, gods or none at all depending on personal beleif" = bad because the first specifically names a specific god and beleif system. While the second statement would appear to be all encompassing, a shorter, "One nation" statement would mean the same damn thing.

      You could argue that setting aside non-denominational or religion-specific prayer time does not in itself constitute the establishment of religion. I would argue in return that my presonal beleif system has nothing to do with prayer or "quiet time" and that forcing me to put up with it is establishing religious principles and practices.

      No one is saying you can't do it on your own time, we're just saying you can't force me to do it.

      Interpretation for the mentally challenged: lack of god or religion in an environment, situation, or work does not specifically endorce or imply atheism. It is simply a lack of god or religion.

      Eat a dick, motherfucker.

    30. Re:Dear Mr. Ashcroft by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      First let me say thanks for that thoughtful response to my post.

      I agree with you that in the practical sense Atheists only exist in the affirming variety. It's interesting that you mention young children and people in a vegetative state. I would say that they are non-affirming athiests (sometimes known as weak atheists). I would also say that agnostics are all weak atheists (although it seems to upset many of them to hear this). I don't like the way that people today use agnostic to mean that they are noncommittal. Agnostic in the religious sense means that you are committed to the idea that man can not know if God exists. This ends up leading to agnostics being a type of non-affirming atheist. It's true that the agnostic has not rulled out theism, but at the same time the agnostic lacks the positive belief "A God exists" making him a type of weak atheist. Again I agree with you that weak atheism is not a practical reality. This leads to some uncomfortable truths about agnosticism that I won't bother to get into.

      I would define these groups as follows:

      Weak atheist:
      non-affirming; lacks the belief in a god (e.g. maybe the brain dead, infant children)
      Agnostic:
      a weak atheist (non-affirming) who also believes that man can never know if God (or gods) exists
      Strong atheist:
      affirming; believes that God doesn't exist; has some reasons for this belief (faith, logical argument, or something else)
      Theist:
      affirming; believes that some god (or gods, or God) exists; also has some reasons for this belief, mainly faith

      You say that the nonexistence of God has not been proven. Are you sure about that? The thing that annoys me about Philosophy is that it never makes any progress. I often hear atheists say that it is not possible to prove a negative, but that is not really true. There have been logical arguments made against the existence of God (in the Christian sense) and other arguments against gods in general. The problem is that nobody noticed or cared (except a few old philosophers), and so we still argue about these topics today. (I won't get into the arguments against the existence of God here; a debate among atheists about atheism is one thing, a debate about the existence of God betweeen ahteists and theists just turns into chaos). Whether you accept the arguments against the existence of God or not I just wanted to point out that there are strong atheists who believe that there are logical proofs for the nonexistence of God. So atheism doesn't have to be faith based. Likewise there are theists who believe their are logical arguments for the existence of God, but the reason faith is so important to theism is because the major arguments have all turned out to be circular.

      In conclusion I'll just say that Atheism is not a religion to all atheists, though for many of them it might as well be.

      -Al

    31. Re:Dear Mr. Ashcroft by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm surprised. It's been so long since I've seen an atheist who was this reasonable, and who had actually thought through their position, rather than chanting banal slogans... but I spent too much time at infidels.org in my day...

    32. Re:Dear Mr. Ashcroft by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Anointing is an ancient Christian right, generally given to those who assumed some sort of higher office or station. I believe that it's also a Catholic sacrement, though Pentecostals apparetnly practice it more... freely.

      That said, I do not know of anyone who has annointed their TV nor their house, but annointing is not just something they made up. After all, you realize that Messiah means "Anointed One," right?

    33. Re:Dear Mr. Ashcroft by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They say never to argue with idiots, because they just drag you down to their level and beat you with experience. So i'm just going to give up beforehand, and try to fight drivel with drivel:
      You, sir, are the retarded motherfucker who may eat a dick.

    34. Re:Dear Mr. Ashcroft by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Touche.

    35. Re:Dear Mr. Ashcroft by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      The two beliefs are not incompatable, nor is Agnosicism incompatable with Theism. Agnosticism is the epistemological position that knowledge of the existence or non-existence of God is impossible. Agnostic thiests (once known as fidests) are those who do not believe there can be proof of a God but nonetheless believe in one based purely on faith. Pop culture, unable to understand the difference between religion and philosophy, seems to have decided that Agnosicism is on a spectrum between Atheism and Theism where in reality it is a position on a different but related issue.

      I'm replying to my own post here but I noticed this response further up in the thread. I just want to say that I am aware of agnostic theism but chose to ignore it (perhaps erroneously) because the position has grown so unpopular lately. Most people calling themselves agnostic today think of themselves as noncommital to the belief or disbelief of God. I am also aware of 'agnostic atheism' but consider this more a sign of confusion than a philosophical position.

      -Al

    36. Re:Dear Mr. Ashcroft by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "That said, I do not know of anyone who has annointed their TV nor their house, but annointing is not just something they made up."

      The problem isn't that "they've just made it up", which they haven't, and nobody suggested they had; the problem is that they performing it at all. It has no place in a secular government and a debatable place even in a government that has some religious acceptance.

      "After all, you realize that Messiah means "Anointed One," right?"

      Err. Yes it does. What does this have to do with Ashcroft? You're not suggesting he's the second coming are you?

    37. Re:Dear Mr. Ashcroft by Quince+alPillan · · Score: 1

      When I went to Boy's state that year (a political science type thing for Juniors and Seniors) Ashcroft made a speech at the end. During the entire speech he acted like we were nothing but children who weren't important.

      Too bad he didn't realize that most of us would be voting the next election.

      By the way, I voted for the dead guy. Better to have the dead in charge than a nutcase like Ashcroft.

    38. Re:Dear Mr. Ashcroft by starcraftsicko · · Score: 1
      I would define these groups as follows:
      How about these?

      Weak Atheist: or alleged atheist non-affirming; lacks the belief or specific non-belief in a god (e.g. maybe the brain dead, infant children)
      Strong Atheist: or true atheist affirming; believes that God(s) doesn't exist; has some reasons for this belief (faith, logical argument, or something else)
      (strong) Theist: affirming; believes that some god (or gods, or God) exists; also has reasons for this belief including logic or faith.
      Weak Theist: or pop-culture agnostic is unsure about the existence or nature of God, and specifically, accepts/agrees with no Theology. This position is affirming, the weak theist affirms their current uncertainty/confusion.
      Agnostic: or true agnostic believes that man can never know if God (or gods) exist. The agnostic makes a broad assertion about the nature of god(s), and as such agnosticism is compatible only with affirming positions.
    39. Re:Dear Mr. Ashcroft by pavon · · Score: 1

      An AC said:
      In this entire point I see nothing about prayer groups. Whether or not he has prayer groups is irrelevant, anyone should be able to pray in public. Forcing people to join prayer groups is an entirely different matter. In any case, if you're going to be that paranoid about repercussions you have to ban any reference to any beliefs in places like school. After all, a teacher could take a person's personal beliefs into account when grading assignments. It goes both ways.

      Yes, this exactly what I was getting at. Holi is right that the corporate prayer that Mr Ashcroft has at work does have problems and the tone of my post made it sound like I was absolving him completely, which I don't.

      The reason that I lashed out on the subject is because I feel that near the end of Clinton's term the seperation of church and state issues were getting to the point of being unnecisarrily descriminatory. What I mean is that everyone has beliefs of some sort (or at least strong opinions) and what difference does it make if you call your beliefs religous and I don't. At my school teachers were practically banned from even stating that they were christian, and yet my literature teachers could cram their secular humanism beliefs down our throughts all they wanted. Which is verging on exactly the problem that we wanted get away from in the first point - one state endorsed belief system (in this case tolerence, embrasing all cultures, putting superficial peace above moral beliefs).

      I think the correct balence in this is to allow everyone, even public leaders and teachers, to express their beliefs whether religious or not, but crack down on any actions by government officials, in their role as such, that could be seen as pressuring others to have the same belief, and also any actions by citizens in an authority position, and acting in their role as such, that could be seen as discriminating based on beliefs. I believe that gives the fullest possible freedom to live according your belief system while still protecting the freedom of belief of others.

      Oh, and I don't think that praying and disliking being in a picture with a boob makes Ashcroft a nutcase, but the cynical moderators have spoken :)

  4. Pretty sweeping by AndroidCat · · Score: 4, Interesting
    6. How does "unconditional copyright" create these problems?

    Under our traditional system of conditional copyright, the overwhelming majority (as much as 90%) of published works were neither registered nor noticed, and thus passed immediately into the public domain, where they were freely usable by others without the need to ask permission.

    Challenging the perpetual extension of copyright is one thing. Going back to the old "no copyright until you register" system is something else, and pretty radical. (Note that GPL stuff very definitely uses copyright as its base. Do you want to have to register every little release to have a valid GPL on it?)
    --
    One line blog. I hear that they're called Twitters now.
    1. Re:Pretty sweeping by morcheeba · · Score: 1

      GPL has the copyright notice, so it'll still get protection. But, unless you register, you can't win extra damages when someone violates your copyright. IANAL.

    2. Re:Pretty sweeping by XaXXon · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I'd like to say that the parent post is *EXTREMELY* important and must be addressed.

      Most open-source developers take their copyright for granted. One says that his/her code is GPL (or BSD or whatever) and *poof*, like magic, it is.

      I don't know what is involved in registering for a copyright, but I'm sure it's harder than doing nothing.

      These fears may be misplaced, but I'd like someone to address them.

    3. Re:Pretty sweeping by lukewarmfusion · · Score: 1

      If someone violates your copyright, you can indeed register after the fact and still sue them for damages.

    4. Re:Pretty sweeping by XaXXon · · Score: 1

      GPL has the copyright notice, so it'll still get protection. But, unless you register, you can't win extra damages when someone violates your copyright. IANAL.

      What do you mean by "protection"? What does "win extra damages" mean? Do you have any links to back this up? This isn't very reassuring for me.

    5. Re:Pretty sweeping by AndroidCat · · Score: 2, Informative

      Under the current system (in line with the Berne Convention). Under the old system, if you didn't register, that copyright notice isn't valid and means sweet richard all.

      --
      One line blog. I hear that they're called Twitters now.
    6. Re:Pretty sweeping by stubear · · Score: 1

      Eaxctly, but this is only under the unconditional copyright system. If Kahle is successful then these protections won't exist at all and you must register your work to get protection of the law. Each derivative work woudl need to be registered to beprotected by copyright law regardless of the legal status of the originl work. If the work is not protected by copyright the GPL will have a much weaker leg to stand on legally.

    7. Re:Pretty sweeping by PCM2 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Yeah, I'm not sure I get his arguments here. The idea that authors' works are "locked up" against their will seems ludicrous at the face of it.

      I've created works that I have specifically registered with the copyright office. An example is the comic strip, below. I registered this work to protect myself from people reprinting the strip against my will for financial gain. For instance, I don't want to be browsing through a book in a bookstore and come across my strip printed there, and I want to have the full benefit of the tools of financial restitution available to me should that occur.

      If, on the other hand, you, Joe Blow, wanted to use the very same strip for your own purposes and you weren't planning to really make money off it and your use really wouldn't do any damage to my ability to "profit" off the strip, in my opinion, then I might just allow you to use it. In fact, even if you never contacted me for permission to use it (but I'd prefer you did), there'd be nothing stopping you. All I'd have to do to "unlock" that terribly "locked up," copyrighted work is .... (drum roll please) ... finish this cup of coffee and read the paper.

      Follow me? One common misconception about copyrights is that they "go away" if you don't defend them. That can be true of trademarks, but not of copyrights. If it's my personal policy to sue Disney when they infringe my copyright, but not sue individuals like you, then that's my business and nobody else's.

      On the other hand, he seems to be saying that we should go back to mandatory registration, because at least then works that nobody remembers to register will be public domain. Well, where's the fairness in that?

      Who do you think is more likely to register everything they produce: Disney, with its army of lawyers? Or me?

      So the end result of mandatory registration is that companies like Disney continue to amass their ivory towers of intellectual property, while people like you and me lose out. That is, Disney would be able to make use of our works with impunity, because nobody took the time to educate us to be diligent about registering our works if we believe in the protections of copyright.

      P.S. And I shouldn't need to remind you that most of us here do believe in the protections of copyright. Copyright law is the very backbone of licensing structures like the GPL.

      --
      Breakfast served all day!
    8. Re:Pretty sweeping by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Worse, do you want to pay the $30 copyright fee for every painting, sketch, poem, article, book or anything else you create? Students and young persons certainly can't afford that, so does that make it okay to steal their material because they couldn't afford the time and money involved for each individual copyright?

      I prefer the current "a thing is copyrighted the instant you create it without any need to register it".

    9. Re:Pretty sweeping by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      He means, if someone steals your manuscript and makes a movie out of it and you didn't have it officially registered with the copyright office, you can sue to make them STOP using it.

      However, if you have it officially registered with the copyright office, you can sue them to make them STOP using YOUR material *and* for money to compensate for your loss and their theft of your material.

      In other words, if they make a billion dollars off of your manuscript by making your movie, it's the difference between telling them "okay, don't do that anymore..." and "okay, now hand over the billion dollars you made by ripping this guy off".

      And all the links you need to back this up are at the US Copyright Office. Check out their website.

    10. Re:Pretty sweeping by David+Hume · · Score: 2, Informative

      GPL has the copyright notice, so it'll still get protection.


      This isn't correct. According to item #2 of the FAQ, if this lawsuit is succesful, mere "notice" would be insufficient, and instead we would be back to:

      "a conditional copyright system that limited copyright protection to those who took affirmative steps to claim it -- by, for example, registering their copyright, marking copies of their work with copyright notice, and renewing their copyright after a relatively short initial period of protection."


      FAQ (emphasis added)

    11. Re:Pretty sweeping by SydShamino · · Score: 2, Informative

      Every source file includes a copyright notice, correct?

      Thus, they are protected under the traditional system. He says "noticed" in the text.

      "no copyright until you register" is completely different.

      If someone choose to publish source code without putting a copyright notice of any sort in the code, then under the traditional system that code would immediately become public domain. If, however, they bothered with a "Copyright 2004 Syd Shamino. All rights reserved except those provided by the General Public License." then their bases are covered. It's really that simple.

      --
      It doesn't hurt to be nice.
    12. Re:Pretty sweeping by happyfrogcow · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Interesting. Wondering myself what is involved, i went to the U.S. Copyright Office online.

      I was pleased to see:

      Literary Works
      Register your book, manuscript, online work, pamphlet, poetry, report, test, automated database, computer program, or other text.

      then, on the next page as step 1 of Literary Works, "Computer programs and databases also are considered literary works." however following at link of examples i found

      "Computer Programs
      A "computer program" is a set of statements or instructions to be used directly or indirectly in a computer in order to bring about a certain result.

      Copyright protection extends to all the copyrightable expression embodied in the computer program. Copyright protection is not available for ideas, program logic, algorithms, systems, methods, concepts, or layouts."


      This lead me to a 4 page PDF File. It says what you need to submit and that it costs $30. It is a somewhat interesting read, but offers no explanation of what exactly is copyrightable if, as they previously said "Copyright protection is not available for ideas, program logic, algorithms, systems, methods, concepts, or layouts." That leaves me with nothing but comments, and *maybe* data structures. However data sctructures are nothing more than a layout of data in memory, or an idea encapsulating data layout.

      I don't get it.

    13. Re:Pretty sweeping by iminplaya · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Going back to the old "no copyright until you register" system is something else, and pretty radical.

      It also makes copyright an almost acceptable premise. To expect every idea to be "born copyrighted" is just a little too much. How greedy and lazy can one get? They want all this protection and don't want to put up ANY effort to apply for it. Talk about wanting a free lunch... If you want to have it and keep it, you should have to go out and get it and maintain it.

      --
      What?
    14. Re:Pretty sweeping by Atanamis · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The issue seems to be primarily dealing with "orphan works", by which the article refers to works that were initially marked with a copyright notice but whose owners cannot now be determined. Obviously if the work contains a means of contacting the owner, it should be fairly simple to determine whether that owner minds if the work is used. It is when the owner cannot be contacted that long unrequested copyright terms become a problem.

      In the case of your comic, twenty years from now you probably won't care much if someone wants to archive it for a non-profit use. In the intervening time though, any contact information that the comic contains on it may no longer be valid. Can you then see the possible benefit of having a central repository of contact information for copyright holders? If it is the responsibility of the user to obtain permission from a copyright holder, shouldn't it at least be possible to contact that person?

      --
      Atanamis
    15. Re:Pretty sweeping by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      That's because *POOF* like magic - IT IS COPYRIGHTED.

      Copyright is granted instantly upon creation by the author. Paying the copyright office $30 and filling out paperwork is just an additional and OPTIONAL course you can take. Just because you don't officially register it doesn't mean you don't still own it and control it and that there isn't a copyright on it.

      You can verify this anywhere on the internet including the copyright office themselves. YOU ARE NOT REQUIRED TO REGISTER YOUR COPYRIGHT TO MAINTAIN COPYRIGHT ON YOUR CREATED WORK AND SUE IN COURT TO PREVENT OR STOP SOMEONE ELSE FROM USING IT.

    16. Re:Pretty sweeping by pavon · · Score: 2, Informative

      I was very much in favor of what they were trying to do in the Eldred v. Ashcroft case, and can't understand why any judge could possibly think that extending copyright terms on existing works could encourage innovation. But I have to say that my initial reaction to this is that I don't like it at all. One of the nice features of copyright in my mind is the fact that it doesn't require going through a beurocratic agency - your copyright is assumed at the time of creation. If we go back to the old system it will create an unnecisarry burden on both the government and content creators.

      All of the problems mentioned in the FAQ are really due to the fact that copyright is too long. Furthermore, I don't see how unconditional copyright creates a violation of free speech. (I haven't read the whole complaint yet, just the FAQ) But this is a good time to remind people to write their congress critters about the Public Domain Enhancement Act It will acheive the exact same goal of releasing "orphanware" into the public domain, but only requires people to register for copyright after 50 years - only putting the burden on money grubbers who want copyright for longer than it should exist anyway.

    17. Re:Pretty sweeping by AndroidCat · · Score: 1

      Under the "traditional" system merely sticking a copyright notice on something didn't mean anything unless you registered it. Retroactive registration didn't protect you either. A number of works and movies slipped into public domain because someone goofed the paperwork.

      --
      One line blog. I hear that they're called Twitters now.
    18. Re:Pretty sweeping by AndroidCat · · Score: 1

      Yes, but this seems to be something Kahle wants to change.

      --
      One line blog. I hear that they're called Twitters now.
    19. Re:Pretty sweeping by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      However, in the modern copyright system, you do not need to register and you do not need to place a copyright notice. As everyone knows by now, you can't just take material and use it as your own. Ever. Anywhere. You must presume it is copyrighted until you find out otherwise and material IS copyrighted by its creator, period - without registration and without placing a notice on the material. Just because I don't say "Copyright 1999" on my short story doesn't mean you can steal it and use it to your whim.

    20. Re:Pretty sweeping by elmegil · · Score: 2, Informative
      I believe what they're saying is that the IMPLEMENTATION AS A WHOLE is copyrightable, but the ALGORITHM (and all those things that might be reasonably considered part of the algorithm, e.g. program logic--if I could copyright "if()then;" I'd be a wealthy man, but that is specifically disallowed) is not.

      Of course, in the face of business process copyrights, that doesn't make much more sense.

      --
      7 November 2006: The day Americans realized corruption and incompetence weren't addressing 11 September 2001
    21. Re:Pretty sweeping by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      I think what many are looking for is a compromise, such as requiring renewel registration after a period of time (e.g., 50 years).

      If he is pushing for registration of everything from the outset, which I appear to have missed, then I don't have a problem with that because I know that Congress will compromise. It's incredibly unlikely because of some of the arguements that you raise that Congress would institute registration requirements for all copyrighted materials from day one.

      I'd even support a campaign to reform patent law to a minimalistic interpretation of the constitution if that's what it took to force a compromise out of those that appear bent on pushing extreme laws though that are increasingly encouraging patenting everything under the sun, patent lifes much longer than the "technology" they patent, and business models built entirely on threatening and suing people, where the biggest legal war chest wins instead of who's "legally" right.

    22. Re:Pretty sweeping by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      "Copyright protection is not available for ideas, program logic, algorithms, systems, methods, concepts, or layouts."

      The computer program that implements these things is copyrightable. What they are saying is that you can't copyright Bubble Sort/whatever algorithm or the One True Brace Style.

    23. Re:Pretty sweeping by pavon · · Score: 3, Informative

      It is the difference between copyright and patents. When you copyright your create work (source code) you only get protection for that specific work. You do not get protection for the ideas in the work, which can be freely used by anyone in their own programs, so long as they don't copy your code verbatim. As a comparison if someone wrote an article about sheep shearing methods, it would be an infringement of copyright to copy his article verbatim, but not to write your own article discussing the same methods.

      That is all it is saying about not being able to receive copyright protection for ideas and algorithms.

    24. Re:Pretty sweeping by AndroidCat · · Score: 1
      How greedy and lazy can one get?

      Umm, GPL copyright licences are to protect against other people's greed.

      --
      One line blog. I hear that they're called Twitters now.
    25. Re:Pretty sweeping by happyfrogcow · · Score: 1

      But "Implementation as a whole", is that not just a "system" which they stated as not copyrightable?

      This is all pretty interesting. I'm going to have to do some more fact finding, maybe find a lawyer, and go through the process to see what happens. US$30 isn't a whole lot to spend on a test run. Surely, it would probably cost a few hundred dollars for a consultation session with a lawyer though.

    26. Re:Pretty sweeping by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've never heard of "business process copyrights" -- perhaps you mean patents?

    27. Re:Pretty sweeping by angle_slam · · Score: 3, Informative

      You're right that Disney is more likely to register everything they produce. That is not the point. They are targeting relatively unknown works that can't be published because of copyright reasons. For example, many old movies are salvageable but are deteriorating. But one can't just make a DVD of the movie because they have to figure out exactly who owns each part of the movie. Or an old magazine with a bunch of different articles. One who wants to republish it currently has to go about finding out who exactly owns the copyright to the collection and to each of the stories. Or they could not republish it, which is what is happening today.

    28. Re:Pretty sweeping by thisissilly · · Score: 1

      Incorect. Under the old system, if you had a notice but didn't register, it limitted the damages you could sue for, but it was valid, and could be used to stop someone from infringing.

    29. Re:Pretty sweeping by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Going back to the old "no copyright until you register" system is something else, and pretty radical. (Note that GPL stuff very definitely uses copyright as its base. Do you want to have to register every little release to have a valid GPL on it?)

      He's not advocating a national registry or anything that costs money... let me quote from the lawsuit:

      "For example, a regime that requires registration of a copyrighted work, or the deposit of a copyrighted work, or the marking of a copyrighted work with copyright notice, or the renewal of the term of protection, is a conditional regime." (emphasis mine)

      No onerous "registration" with a third party entity required, just a little notice such as (c) 2004 by Anonymous Coward is sufficient.

      Think about it - that little notice immediately tells you when the work was created (and hence when its copyright expires) and also tells you who the copyright holder is... making it a not-horrifically-burdensome task to track down the author/copyright holder.

      Suppose, for instance, you find a 10-page essay lying on the ground with the most brilliant explanation of something you've ever seen... but it has no copyright notice.

      When does it fall out of copyright? It could have been writtein 10 years ago... or 10 minutes ago. Who is the original owner? Who knows... there's no name attached.

      THIS is the problem with the current copyright regime - that essay is DOA - you can't effectively use it AT ALL because there is NO WAY to know who holds the copyright. That puts an *impossible* burden on the person who would like to use that material.

      A simple requirement of dating and "signing" your work to register copyright solves these problems neatly and is free, so commercial worry ("only big corporations can get things copyrighted") is eliminated, while relieving the would-be user of an impossible burden.

      IMO, a simple notice indicating "when and by whom" should be mandatory for gaining copyright on material so that a would-be re-user can find the original author to seek permission/license. This takes a literally impossible burden from the would-be re-user and puts a miniscule burden on the original author... which IMO is more than offset by the protection the author is afforded.

      --AC

    30. Re:Pretty sweeping by Analogy+Man · · Score: 1
      I believe what they're saying is that the IMPLEMENTATION AS A WHOLE is copyrightable

      I think this clears this up. Suppose I copyright an idea for a movie. A poor orphan is mentored by some genius that everyone thinks is crazy. Poor orphan develops into brave and talented warrior, fighter, chess player, bocce ball player etc. and defeats ...the bad guy. Turns out the bad guy was his fathers arch enemy blah blah blah.

      Now half the adventure films produced in the next 50 years owe me millions!!!

      Back to programming, I could copyright MyBubbleSort.c or a paper about sorting algorithms, but I could not copyright the idea or concept of a sorting algorithm.

      --
      When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.
    31. Re:Pretty sweeping by DeepRedux · · Score: 2, Informative
      There are a number of advantages to registering, according to the US Copyright Office FAQ these include
      If registration is made within 3 months after publication of the work or prior to an infringement of the work, statutory damages and attorney's fees will be available to the copyright owner in court actions. Otherwise, only an award of actual damages and profits is available to the copyright owner.
      I think that all of the RIAA suits for file sharing are based on asking statutory, not actual, damages.
    32. Re:Pretty sweeping by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      To expect every idea to be "born copyrighted" is just a little too much.
      How did gibberish like this get modded up? Ideas are NEVER coyrighted. Specific artistic works -- stories, computer programs, songs -- are

    33. Re:Pretty sweeping by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Unconditional copyright is ridiculous in its current state. Since works are not required to be registered, or even have a copyright notice, pretty much any arbitrary work is impossible to copy. Why? Because without it being registered, it's impossible to find out who owns it. And without a copyright notice on it, there's no way to find out how old it is to see if the copyright even expired!

      I don't think there's anything wrong with imposing the requirement of having a notice to make something copyrighted. That way anybody who wants protection can get it with minimal work, and everybody else's stuff goes into the public domain like it used to.

      aQazaQa

    34. Re:Pretty sweeping by AndroidCat · · Score: 1

      Quite possibly I'm wrong. Remembering the current system, as well as the American DMCA add-ons, is bad enough without having to dredge up how it all used to work.

      --
      One line blog. I hear that they're called Twitters now.
    35. Re:Pretty sweeping by Yobgod+Ababua · · Score: 1
      These fears may be misplaced, but I'd like someone to address them.

      IIRC, the way it worked previously there were several ways to assert your copyright on a given work, including:

      • Registering it with the appropriate authority.
      • Placing a correct copyright notice on the document or work itself.

      That latter option should be easy for any serious publisher to abide by...

      In any case, it seems fairly unlikely that we'd implement an up-front registration process. More likely (as the article mentions) works would continue to be automagically copyrighted for some (smallish) number of years, with a minimal renewal fee you'd need to submit at that point to extend your copyright to the full term.

    36. Re:Pretty sweeping by cpt+kangarooski · · Score: 1

      Yes, absolutely.

      If someone doesn't care enough about their work to satisfy formalities, which are extremely simple, then why should anyone care enough about it to grant it a copyright?

      Formalities are important to:
      *Avoid burdensome copyright grants to minor works that the author apparently doesn't even want protected, or which in the overall scheme of things aren't worth protecting.
      *Ensure that records of the work's existence are made and updated.
      *Preserve the work in the long term given that the author has to deposit a copy.

      Given that this was the status quo for centuries, what's radical about it? The PRESENT system is what's radical.

      --
      -- This and all my posts are in the public domain. I am a lawyer. I am not your lawyer, and this is not legal advice.
    37. Re:Pretty sweeping by cpt+kangarooski · · Score: 1

      No, that was pretty spot on.

      Think of it this way: let's say you write a word processor. A copyright would protect _that_ word processor. It would not cover word processing software generally, even if it worked identically to yours. Reverse engineering is not barred by copyright. Thus your implementation of a word processor is protected, but just your implementation. You can't stop other people from making their own.

      Patents, OTOH, can protect the overall invention, even if someone independently created it later. A patent on word processors would prevent anyone from making a word processor even if it was totally new, since it would still fall within the realm of the patent. This is why so long as, e.g. the Amazon one click patent is not invalid, no one can have one click purchases w/o permission.

      --
      -- This and all my posts are in the public domain. I am a lawyer. I am not your lawyer, and this is not legal advice.
    38. Re:Pretty sweeping by cpt+kangarooski · · Score: 1

      So sorry, but you're wrong.

      With a few minor exceptions, you cannot sue in court until you have registered your copyright with the USCO. Additionally you may be barred from certain remedies if you hadn't registered.

      Read 17 USC 411-412.

      --
      -- This and all my posts are in the public domain. I am a lawyer. I am not your lawyer, and this is not legal advice.
    39. Re:Pretty sweeping by cpt+kangarooski · · Score: 1

      I don't think that's correct. I'm looking at section 13 of the 1909 Act, and it seems to state the opposite.

      --
      -- This and all my posts are in the public domain. I am a lawyer. I am not your lawyer, and this is not legal advice.
    40. Re:Pretty sweeping by cpt+kangarooski · · Score: 1

      One common misconception about copyrights is that they "go away" if you don't defend them.

      Well... laches is hardly an unreasonable defense in an infringement suit. But it isn't often applicable, nor does it have widespread results.

      So the end result of mandatory registration is that companies like Disney continue to amass their ivory towers of intellectual property, while people like you and me lose out.

      Not at all. We win, big time. Those uncopyrighted works are not only available to Disney, they're also available to us. We too can make use of them with impunity. That's great.

      Plus of course, even Disney isn't going to copyright everything. A lot, yes, but even they have limits.

      --
      -- This and all my posts are in the public domain. I am a lawyer. I am not your lawyer, and this is not legal advice.
    41. Re:Pretty sweeping by cpt+kangarooski · · Score: 1

      Worse, do you want to pay the $30 copyright fee for every painting, sketch, poem, article, book or anything else you create?

      Of course not. Because I am not that greedy. All of my works are in the public domain. When I create something _worth_ copyrighting, then I'll take that extra step, put in that extra bit of effort. And it's not much.

      so does that make it okay to steal their material because they couldn't afford the time and money involved for each individual copyright?

      Yes. If they care, they'll manage to register it. But odds are they probably don't care -- nor does anyone else care to infringe -- so it's a non issue.

      I mean, what the fuck do you need a zillion year copyright on your refrigerator magnet poem for? You're not that special to warrant one automatically.

      --
      -- This and all my posts are in the public domain. I am a lawyer. I am not your lawyer, and this is not legal advice.
    42. Re:Pretty sweeping by thisissilly · · Score: 1
      Hmm. According to http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ1.html (not the law itself, I know)
      NOTE: Before 1978, federal copyright was generally secured by the act of publication with notice of copyright, assuming compliance with all other relevant statutory conditions.[...]Federal copyright could also be secured before 1978 by the act of registration in the case of certain unpublished works and works eligible for ad interim copyright.
      and
      Under the law in effect before 1978, copyright was secured either on the date a work was published with a copyright notice or on the date of registration if the work was registered in unpublished form. In either case, the copyright endured for a first term of 28 years from the date it was secured.
      So only publication with a notice was needed to secure copyright (registration wasn't a requirement). As for the damages, I'll have to look further.
    43. Re:Pretty sweeping by jc42 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I don't see how unconditional copyright creates a violation of free speech.

      Well, under the current rules, this text is copyrighted as soon as I hit the Submit button. However, I don't know whether I am the copyright holder. It's possible (and on /. quite likely ;-) that someone else has "published" the same words previously, and they are the copyright holder.

      So I may be the copyright holder, or I may be a criminal engaged in copyright iinfringement. How can I know which I am? Right - I can't. There is no way that I can possibly know whether someone already owns the copyright to these words. This is because they don't have to register their copyright, and they don't have to publish there words any place that I can find them.

      So I have two choices: I can take the risk of infringing someone else's copyright. Or I can keep quiet and not worry.

      This seems as clear a violation of free speech as you could possibly have. Any words that I "publish" entail a serious threat of civil and/or criminal charges for copyright infringement, and my only way to avoid this is to say nothing.

      Let's see; should I hit the Submit button and take the risk? Ah, why the hell not? ...

      --
      Those who do study history are doomed to stand helplessly by while everyone else repeats it.
    44. Re:Pretty sweeping by cpt+kangarooski · · Score: 1

      We're not talking about securing copyright though. We're talking about actionability. Remember, the parent said that even w/o registration you could stop someone from infringing.

      The relevant part of 13 reads:

      No action or proceeding shall be maintained for infringement of copyright in any work until the provisions of this title with respect to the deposit of copies and registration of such work shall have been complied with.

      Which sounds to me like you can't stop someone from infringing (which would require a court order) until you've registered.

      http://www.kasunic.com/1909_act.htm has what appears to be a copy of the old act.

      --
      -- This and all my posts are in the public domain. I am a lawyer. I am not your lawyer, and this is not legal advice.
    45. Re:Pretty sweeping by filmsmith · · Score: 1

      There's also something called a 'Poor Man's Copyright' in which you immediately print out the document you want copyrighted, seal it in an envelope and mail it to yourself. Once you get it back, keep it sealed! (and properly labeled)

      Then, should you need to ever prove prior art in court, you've got a Government time-stamped sealed copy of your work proving it's date of creation. It's strictly as a last resort and, as the name applies, previously only used for the poor.

      I am fond of the idea of actually having to register work, though. It would make Copyright holders take their work more seriously and not just slap 'Copy Write to Me' (yes, I've seen this) and expect it to be protected.

      Naturally, this can lead to the same flaws as our current Patent system where everything is aproved and (seemingly) nothing verified against prior art.

      fs

      p.s. Sorry about not responding to our last post. I got busy and never did get back around to it. Also, as you mentioned then, I'm very much in agreeance about the gub'ment being able to step in and say 'That fee's too damn much, son!' and forcing Copyright holders to play fair. Now if they could do the same thing about the time span...

    46. Re:Pretty sweeping by elmegil · · Score: 1
      I've never heard of "business process copyrights" -- perhaps you mean patents?

      Aha, confusion man strikes again!

      --
      7 November 2006: The day Americans realized corruption and incompetence weren't addressing 11 September 2001
    47. Re:Pretty sweeping by SydShamino · · Score: 1

      Yes, and this "modern" system is part of the problem. Copyright exists in the United States purely to benefit the public domain. That's what the Constitution says.

      There have been too many burdens placed on the path from creation to public domain status. With a required copyright notice you could at least count the number of years until it is in the public domain without hiring a lawyer / private detective to track down the owner of the copyright.

      --
      It doesn't hurt to be nice.
    48. Re:Pretty sweeping by PCM2 · · Score: 1
      Can you then see the possible benefit of having a central repository of contact information for copyright holders? If it is the responsibility of the user to obtain permission from a copyright holder, shouldn't it at least be possible to contact that person?
      I'm sure there are records of copyright holders even now. Keeping them up to date, though, would be a logistical nightmare. Suppose I die? What am I supposed to do, update my copyright records? Or are my heirs expected to be thinking about that at my funeral?

      Also, making copyright holders' contact info a matter of public record is a privacy boondoggle waiting to happen.

      If I copyright a work, it's unfortunately your responsibility to assume that you're not allowed to make any use of it. If you can't track me down and ask me about it, maybe that's because I went into hiding because too many people were bugging me with copyright requests? Does that make my copyright any less valid? Or for that matter, what if I were in the witness protection program?

      In cases like these, you go by the circle-C to know where the copyright holder stands on the issue (and under current law, you don't even need to post that to be protected).

      So, again, we're back to the real problem: copyright terms are already too long, and the fact that Congress keeps extending them makes them virtually indefinite. I don't agree with that. But I do believe copyright law serves a purpose, in the form that it exists today.

      --
      Breakfast served all day!
    49. Re:Pretty sweeping by Artifakt · · Score: 1

      "Suppose I die? What am I supposed to do, update my copyright records? Or are my heirs expected to be thinking about that at my funeral?"

      Why is it wrong to require your heirs to update information? In the early versions of copyright law, your copyright could expire before you died. The new laws give you life +70, ergo, every copyright the public awards you will last well past your death. The public is giving you more than they used to, on an average, 4 or 5 times more, why don't you owe them a simple codicil to your will, dictating what you want done to support that extra right you and your heirs have been given?
      Remember what giving you all that time costs the public. Any legal cases involving your work may have to be decided based on 80 year old records or worse. The chance that important contracts have decayed to illegibilty, been consumed by fire, or involve claims where nobody that signed the document is alive to question in court has gone way, way up. And now, you want the public to incur those extra costs in the event of litigation, and not to constrain you and your benficiaries in any way to keep better records?
      Of course, the chance your works will survive until they reach the public domain has gone way down, as well, for just the same reasons, so you are giving back less in exchange for getting more. We should probably not just require your heirs to update what is now their contact information if they want to gain the benefits you are trying to leave them, but you should be required to leave a will, or lose all upon your death. You should be required to include a codicil, specifying that your heirs must make at least a good faith effort to preserve a manuscript copy of each and every work, and to actually notify the public or some designated representitive of the expiration and to actively facilitate the release of what was once your work to the public domain, or again, they should be deemed to have forfitted all rights.
      Now as to whether they should have to think about that at the funeral, I suppose a reasonable waiting period, of say two weeks or so, might be in order. But guess what, I just buried a close relative less than a week ago, and I had to address several business related issues on that very same day, or several employees would have not been paid, and her primary heirs would have lost substantially from the disarray of what was about to be their business. I spent a 14 hour day after another death on such fun tasks as making sure a disabled car didn't become an abandoned and unsalvageable one before one of my minor nieces could inherit it. Why should your being an author protect your heirs from the same sort of consequences? Unless you want a law that applies to the owner of a small business as well as it does an author, what you are asking for there is called special priveledge.

      --
      Who is John Cabal?
    50. Re:Pretty sweeping by jc42 · · Score: 1

      With a few minor exceptions, you cannot sue in court until you have registered your copyright with the USCO.

      Anyone know if this is really true? If so, it could have an interesting impact on the SCO charges of ingringing code in linux.

      The reason is that, as part of the registration, you do have to give the USCO a copy of your copyrighted text, right?

      The big problem the linux crowd has with the SCO charge is that SCO's code is secret. But if they've registered the copyright, then the USCO should have a copy of their code in some vault somewhere. We can just subpoena that, run a match program, and recode any close matches.

      The really big problem with current copyright laws is that something can be unavailable to writers and still protected by copyright. So when you write something, you can't possibly know whether it's infriinging someone's copyright. All you can do is publish your work, and wait to see whether someone sues you.

      You'd think this would be a clear violation of the US Constitutions "progress of the useful arts and sciences" idea, since it obvious puts fear of prosecution into the mind of anyone writing what they think is original text. But apparently not.

      Still, it would be useful to know whether the USCO has a copy of SCO's copyrighted unix code. If not, is the code actually protected from infringement by people who can't see it? Or is it really possible to register a copyright on a secret text?

      --
      Those who do study history are doomed to stand helplessly by while everyone else repeats it.
    51. Re:Pretty sweeping by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It sounds about right, but all you have to do is register your copyright *before* you sue.

      That's it.

      It's not invalid because you didn't do it sooner.

      In fact, both Novell & SCO registered the same set of copyrights and are now dueling over them. They both only registered them recently.

    52. Re:Pretty sweeping by jc42 · · Score: 1

      [A]ll you have to do is register your copyright *before* you sue.

      Yeah; that's what it looks like. If so, I have another modest proposal for a business plan: Write a lot of code that does an assortment of basic, obvious tasks in a very generic fashion. Put a copyright notice in the code. Don't publish any of it anywhere. Watch the Open-Source archives. When you see something that is a good match for any of your code fragments, quickly register your copyright, and file a lawsuit against the Open-Source "infringers".

      If I can have a valid copyright on secret text, you have no defense at all against this. Furthermore, if I were even more unscrupulous, I wouldn't even bother writing the code. I'd take your code, make a few changes to variable names, back-date it, and register that. Faking an earlier date is fairly easy inside computers.

      Of course, I may have a problem here, in that SCO has probably registered a patent on this business model ...

      --
      Those who do study history are doomed to stand helplessly by while everyone else repeats it.
  5. I'm torn on this issue... by lukewarmfusion · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Obligatory IANAL. I think "unconditional copyright" is a good idea. I might write a hundred songs (or poems or whatever) in a year and not make any money off of them. It costs money to register your work as copyrighted.

    Not needing to register each work simply puts the burden on the "fair use" user. If they want to use my work, then I can grant them the rights to use it. But that doesn't mean that I give up copyrights.

    If I am required to register my copyright, then I lose some of the ability to protect it.

    As it stands, I am able to create a work and the copyright exists immediately. I can even register the copyright after an infringement takes place and win in a lawsuit.

    Want to prove that you created the work on a certain date? Mail it to yourself and don't open it.

    1. Re:I'm torn on this issue... by mi · · Score: 1

      That's my feeling too. Those, who wish to put their work into public domain are welcome to do that -- Lessig's FAQ is somewhat misleading at that.

      The case is about people, who don't care to indicate their intentions...

      --
      In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
    2. Re:I'm torn on this issue... by bcolflesh · · Score: 1

      Want to prove that you created the work on a certain date? Mail it to yourself and don't open it.

      The "poor man's copyright" is a myth - it is not legally binding in a US Court of Law - info on how to legally copyright your work.

    3. Re:I'm torn on this issue... by michaelhood · · Score: 1

      I thought Berne Convention covered the "automatic" copyright of your songs/poems?

    4. Re:I'm torn on this issue... by lukewarmfusion · · Score: 1

      From the very link you posted:
      The way in which copyright protection is secured is frequently misunderstood. No publication or registration or other action in the Copyright Office is required to secure copyright. (See following Note.) There are, however, certain definite advantages to registration. See "Copyright Registration."

      Copyright is secured automatically when the work is created, and a work is "created" when it is fixed in a copy or phonorecord for the first time."


      Mailing it to yourself is a way of verifying a date before which the copyright was secured. Since the copyright exists upon creation, you do not need to register it. Because a good way to fight the authenticity of such a copyright, you would do well to provide some time/date proof that the work existed (and therefore the copyright) at the point that you say it did.

    5. Re:I'm torn on this issue... by bcolflesh · · Score: 1

      I agree copyright exists upon creation as defined on the site - that wasn't the question. Mailing the document to yourself is absolutely meaningless - any individual can mail himself a unsealed envelope (or sealed and steam it) - it's an old hack that has been utterly disproved.

    6. Re:I'm torn on this issue... by David+Hume · · Score: 1

      I thought Berne Convention covered the "automatic" copyright of your songs/poems?


      This issue is addressed in item 13 of the FAQ:

      13. If you win, how could copyright law change?

      There are many ways Congress could change the copyright law back to a conditional system and still remain in compliance with the Berne Convention. One way would be to re-impose formalities for all works of U.S. authors -- these are most works published in the U.S., and Berne doesn't prohibit signatory nations from imposing formalities on their own authors. Another would be to pass the Public Domain Enhancement Act, which would impose a tiny renewal fee designed to move unused copyrighted work into the public domain. The PDEA also wouldn't violate Berne, because it would apply only to works of U.S. authors.


      FAQ

    7. Re:I'm torn on this issue... by lukewarmfusion · · Score: 1

      I see what you're saying. I thought you were arguing the date-stamp thing. There are ways to verify without mailing, too.

    8. Re:I'm torn on this issue... by hypnagogue · · Score: 1
      Obligatory IANAL. I think "unconditional copyright" is a good idea. I might write a hundred songs (or poems or whatever) in a year and not make any money off of them. It costs money to register your work as copyrighted.
      How is this a good thing? If these songs or poems are not marketable, then all your copyright is doing is preventing anyone from ever seeing them. Copyright is supposed to serve us, not enslave us. The current system bankrupts the public domain for no obvious value to anyone.

      Take this example. You need a photo of a waterfall for a webpage, you google for a waterfall photo and find several. All of them are copyrighted by somebody, but nowhere does it say by whom. So, even though they are great, and even though the copyright owner would quite probably allow you to use them, the law prohibits it since you can't ask for permission.
      --
      Liberty you never use is liberty you lose.
    9. Re:I'm torn on this issue... by TubeSteak · · Score: 1
      If registration is made within 3 months after publication of the work or prior to an infringement of the work, statutory damages and attorney's fees will be available to the copyright owner in court actions. Otherwise, only an award of actual damages and profits is available to the copyright owner. blah blah
      So... yes, but no to your claims that you can register a copyright after an infringement & still win. Yes because you'd win anyways, no because registering your copyright after the fact wouldn't matter.
      --
      [Fuck Beta]
      o0t!
    10. Re:I'm torn on this issue... by lukewarmfusion · · Score: 1

      I didn't realize that you were referring to the "statutory damages and attorney's fees"...

      The point is that registration after the fact still protects you for "actual damages and profits."

    11. Re:I'm torn on this issue... by Eccles · · Score: 1

      Yes, but you're missing the whole point of this lawsuit, which is to nullify the law that implements that part of the Berne Convention on constitutional grounds.

      The whole point here is that most works don't need the full copyright duration and enforcement. By requiring people to do something to register their copyright, you can relieve the burden on those who would like to use older non-commercially-viable materials, while still allowing Disney to protect Mickey for forever and a day like they demand.

      --
      Ooh, a sarcasm detector. Oh, that's a real useful invention.
    12. Re:I'm torn on this issue... by jsebrech · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I think "unconditional copyright" is a good idea. I might write a hundred songs (or poems or whatever) in a year and not make any money off of them. It costs money to register your work as copyrighted.

      Not needing to register each work simply puts the burden on the "fair use" user. If they want to use my work, then I can grant them the rights to use it. But that doesn't mean that I give up copyrights.

      If I am required to register my copyright, then I lose some of the ability to protect it.


      A few comments:

      If you're not able to make a profit from a work within 50 years of creating it, then it's so unlikely you'll ever make a profit from it, that it just might as well be public domain. Remember that the goal of copyright is to ensure the public good, by promoting the creation of useful works in the arts and sciences.

      Secondly, how about a system where registration and renewals would only start after 50 years past the date of creation? Most authors by that time would be either dead, or not caring anymore who copies their work. I would predict the vast majority of works over 50 would become public domain, while at the same time, such a system wouldn't have the problems you mention. Any opposition to a system like this?

    13. Re:I'm torn on this issue... by lukewarmfusion · · Score: 1

      Personally, I like that idea a lot. The people that are going to disagree are likely to point out software from the 70s, 80s or early 90s... or out-of-print books, music, etc. from that same time.

      The argument seems to be that someone shouldn't be allowed to have a copyright on something if they aren't selling it.

    14. Re:I'm torn on this issue... by Eccles · · Score: 1

      Mailing it to yourself is a way of verifying a date before which the copyright was secured.

      You could have mailed yourself an empty envelope and added the item later, so it's not a good method of verification. Perhaps notarization would work?

      --
      Ooh, a sarcasm detector. Oh, that's a real useful invention.
    15. Re:I'm torn on this issue... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not needing to register each work simply puts the burden on the "fair use" user. If they want to use my work, then I can grant them the rights to use it. But that doesn't mean that I give up copyrights.

      If I am required to register my copyright, then I lose some of the ability to protect it.


      It doesn't help me that you're willing to grant me rights to use it if I don't know you're the one holding those rights. What is not needed is a national registry or anything that costs you money. All that is needed... and if you read the lawsuit, you'll know this, is a declaratory statement, e.g.:

      "Copyright 2004 by Greedy Bastard"

      Again, unless this statement is on something, it effectively makes the copyright perpetual and locks it out of use... because I don't know when it was created (and hence when it falls into public domain) and I also don't know who to go to if I want to seek a license for use.

      Instant Copyright on everything puts an IMPOSSIBLE (not just unreasonable) burden on the would-be re-user in any instance where the copyright holder to a work is not clearly denoted. Asking you, mister original author, to put a Copyright Notice on a work in order to gain copyright on it shifts an impossible and unreasonable burden from me and imposes a miniscule burden on you (just sign & date your work).

      Would you be opposed if "registration" consisted of you being required to "sign & date" your work? Or is that too much of a burden to impose upon you in exchange for giving you life + 70 years of control? If you think sign & date is too steep a price for life + 70, all I can say is, "you're a f---ing @$$."

      IMO, signing & dating should be MANDATORY to gain copyright on material, otherwise the burden of finding the author and/or knowing when it falls into public domain is literally impossible. And if you can't sign & date for life + 70, you don't deserve life + 70.

      --AC

    16. Re:I'm torn on this issue... by lukewarmfusion · · Score: 1

      That's not the whole issue here, but I completely agree with you. My points are intended to address the controversy of abandonware when the author/copyright holder is known. The burden then is contacting the author.

    17. Re:I'm torn on this issue... by lukewarmfusion · · Score: 1

      "How is this a good thing? If these songs or poems are not marketable, then all your copyright is doing is preventing anyone from ever seeing them. Copyright is supposed to serve us, not enslave us. The current system bankrupts the public domain for no obvious value to anyone."

      It's a good thing because it doesn't really bankrupt anyone. If you want it so badly, then pay me for it. Your suggestion amounts to -

      I want your work, but I want it for free.

      If you were willing to pay for it, the author would almost certainly sell it. If it's not marketable, then how come so many people want it?

    18. Re:I'm torn on this issue... by civilizedINTENSITY · · Score: 1

      Not needing to register each work simply puts the burden on the "fair use" user.

      Actually, no. If its fair use, there is no burdern

      If they want to use my work, then I can grant them the rights to use it.

      You have no authority to "grant" fair use rights. Thats like my saying that if you want to walk down the sidewalk, contact me and "I can grant you the right" to be outside in public.

    19. Re:I'm torn on this issue... by iminplaya · · Score: 1

      It costs money to register your work as copyrighted.

      That's the way it should be. You have to pay for the police to protect yor real property like your house, car, etc. There is no reason you shouldn't have to pay to protect your IP (imaginary property) also. Otherwise it's IP welfare. I'd rather see my tax dollars go to a failed Mars landing than to go to that.

      --
      What?
    20. Re:I'm torn on this issue... by Robotech_Master · · Score: 1

      What about "I'm willing to pay for it...but nobody is selling it, because nobody even knows who owns it anymore"?

      --
      Editor Emeritus and Senior Writer, TeleRead.org
    21. Re:I'm torn on this issue... by Atzanteol · · Score: 1

      If these songs or poems are not marketable, then all your copyright is doing is preventing anyone from ever seeing them.

      It also prevents others from profiting from your work. Just because he can't find a way to make money off them, doesn't mean somebody else should until he's had his 'chance'...

      --
      "Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge"

      - Charles Darwin
    22. Re:I'm torn on this issue... by cpt+kangarooski · · Score: 1

      I want your work, but I want it for free.

      Well that is the ENTIRE point of copyright to begin with. Seriously, that sums it all up right there. There's no other reason to have copyright than that.

      So what's wrong with that?

      --
      -- This and all my posts are in the public domain. I am a lawyer. I am not your lawyer, and this is not legal advice.
    23. Re:I'm torn on this issue... by hak1du · · Score: 2, Interesting

      It costs money to register your work as copyrighted.

      You can bundle things and get the cost down to nothing.

      Want to prove that you created the work on a certain date? Mail it to yourself and don't open it.

      Courts will just laugh at that. After all, you can just send an unsealed envelope to yourself.

      If you want to establish priority for an invention, you need to have it witnessed by someone who actually understands the invention. For copyright, it's not clear that that even helps, because...

      If I am required to register my copyright, then I lose some of the ability to protect it. [...] As it stands, I am able to create a work and the copyright exists immediately. I can even register the copyright after an infringement takes place and win in a lawsuit.

      It's unclear whether you can claim copyright on unpublished works at all. After all, the deal is: we give you protection in exchange for you publishing the work and the work eventually falling into the public domain. If you try to restrict fair use, you are violating your part of the copyright bargain.

    24. Re:I'm torn on this issue... by jc42 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I want your work, but I want it for free.

      No, I want a way to discover that it's your work, and ask you if I can use it (possibly paying you a royalty). Under the current system, this information is usually impossible to find.

      Case in point: I've sent letters to a number of music publishers saying that I have a tune in my mind, and I'd like to know if it's a tune that they own the copyright to. I ask them how I can discover if they own a particular tune.

      So far, the answer from every one of them is that they'd be happy to sell me copies of all their music publications.

      That's right; the only way I have, according to the publishers, is to purchase a copy of everything they publish and search it. This could easily cost several million dollars, and require a large warehouse to hold the books. The publishers consider this a reasonable answer to the question. And note that this isn't even possible with books that are out of print but still covered by copyright, since you usually can't buy them at all.

      Actually, of course, there is one effective way that a musician can discover if a tune is copyrighted. You start performing it in public, or start selling a recording. If it is copyrighted, you'll be hit with a lawsuit; if not, you won't. (Well, maybe you will anyway; fraudulent copyright claims are common. ;-)

      As far as I can tell, this is the only practical way to discover if a tune is copyrighted.

      It would be really useful if there were a registry where I could submit a tune and be told whether it's a close match to anything in the registry. It would be especially useful if the registry could give me contact info for the copyright holder. We have the technology to do this now, but there's no such registry.

      --
      Those who do study history are doomed to stand helplessly by while everyone else repeats it.
    25. Re:I'm torn on this issue... by PCM2 · · Score: 1
      How is this a good thing? If these songs or poems are not marketable, then all your copyright is doing is preventing anyone from ever seeing them. Copyright is supposed to serve us, not enslave us. The current system bankrupts the public domain for no obvious value to anyone.
      I just don't get this argument about "public value" etc. I will say flat-out, right now: I do not believe that the unwashed masses have some kind of God-given right to have access to every work ever created.

      Suppose these poems this guy wrote described in intimate detail what it's like to have sex with his wife. And she's still alive, and he's still alive. Doesn't he have a right to not want people to see them? Can't he write them down simply for his own enjoyment, or publish them for the select audience of his choosing, without being forced to give them up to these so-called "public commons" everyone's yammering about?

      As far as I'm concerned, one of the core principles of freedom of speech is the freedom to tell you to mind your own business. Copyright, in its way, contributes to making that possible.

      --
      Breakfast served all day!
    26. Re:I'm torn on this issue... by poot_rootbeer · · Score: 1

      Want to prove that you created the work on a certain date? Mail it to yourself and don't open it.

      Yeah, it's not like envelopes can be steamed open and resealed regardless of what date is stamped on the envelope...

    27. Re:I'm torn on this issue... by Felinoid · · Score: 1

      Not needing to register each work simply puts the burden on the "fair use" user.
      There was a time when regesturing the copyright cost a postage stamp and if we return to compuslry regestry we should also return to the no-fee reg.

      You are right it dose put the burden on the end user. One of the big nightmares of PD programmers in the past was some dipwad regesturing something they wrote and suing the actual author.
      (Some clame this actually happend but I file this in the myth file as I have no proof)

      I am reminded of some of the lawsutes that came about shortly after the current system went into place. Individuals clamming they are the actual authors of a movie theam soung for example.
      The entertainment industry has writers who submit matereal sign a waver before they'll even look at your stuff to avoid nasty lawsutes.
      (This was in place before the current copyright rules BTW. I'm remined of "Trubble With Tribbles II" nastyness where a writer contacts a staff writer with his idea while a similar idea is already in production)

      --
      I don't actually exist.
    28. Re:I'm torn on this issue... by cpt+kangarooski · · Score: 1

      If you're not going to make any money off of it, what the hell do you need a copyright for?

      --
      -- This and all my posts are in the public domain. I am a lawyer. I am not your lawyer, and this is not legal advice.
    29. Re:I'm torn on this issue... by achurch · · Score: 1

      Suppose these poems this guy wrote described in intimate detail what it's like to have sex with his wife. And she's still alive, and he's still alive. Doesn't he have a right to not want people to see them? Can't he write them down simply for his own enjoyment, or publish them for the select audience of his choosing, without being forced to give them up to these so-called "public commons" everyone's yammering about?

      And if he does this, what would get it into public view? If he doesn't publish it, then for all practical purposes, it won't be in the public domain regardless of copyright law for the simple reason that the public doesn't know about it. Likewise if he publishes to a select group and nobody in the group "leaks" it. On the other hand, publishing it with copyright is no guarantee that nobody will take it and post it all over the Internet.

    30. Re:I'm torn on this issue... by Artifakt · · Score: 1

      A document signed by multiple witnesses, or 'sealed' by an notary public, attesting that the work exists in finished form on a certain date, would probably be enough. Cost is free (except for your time), to a few dollars if you want to tip the notary. I am not a lawyer, but I have had the legal instruction and been granted the legal power to administer a binding oath and attest to its performance in the past, and I suspect that could be done is such a way as to cover it too.
      None of these are common practice at this time. While any or all of them might be a way to protect a claim to have originated a creative work, existing law re. copyrights may make any of them unadvisable. Whether a US Federal Judge will accept any procedure involving records kept at a county courthouse, for example, varies widely.

      --
      Who is John Cabal?
    31. Re:I'm torn on this issue... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Cripes, man -- learn how to spell!

    32. Re:I'm torn on this issue... by lukewarmfusion · · Score: 1

      I guess such efforts would be a bit much, compared to the relatively small cost of registering your copyright.

    33. Re:I'm torn on this issue... by SiliBelgian · · Score: 1

      If you're not going to make any money off of it, what the hell do you need a copyright for?

      Maybe you should ask the people releasing software under the GPL...
      If they're not gonna make any money off of it, why should they need any copyright? Maybe to prevent somebody else from claiming it and selling it?

      I'm looking a you, Darl McBride !

      --


      "Hell hath no fury like a hippo with a machine gun."
    34. Re:I'm torn on this issue... by cpt+kangarooski · · Score: 1

      Well, aside from the fact that the GPL doesn't prohibit people making money off of the software thus made, my question still stands.

      If people who want the benefits of copyright and thus the GPL aren't prepared to go through some minor formalities to get them -- including a registration cost -- then that's their tough luck.

      --
      -- This and all my posts are in the public domain. I am a lawyer. I am not your lawyer, and this is not legal advice.
    35. Re:I'm torn on this issue... by Intrigued · · Score: 1
      What if the copyright registration was as simple and inexpensive as mailing yourself a letter?

      Consider the idea of an internet based registration process. It also allows for a central archive that could be searched for information. (Library of Congress)

      The registration removes alot of disputes and gives a solid reference to compare for plagerism/copyright infringement. It also gets those hundred songs/poems out to benefit the public where they won't just disappear in a house fire or molding in a chest in the attic.

      If the music or ideas are ahead of their time, that may be very valuable to a future generation. I wonder how many truly excellent works have been lost because someone didn't think that it was worth the trouble of publishing. Tolkien wasn't sure that LOTR was worth publishing but friends convinced him to give it a shot.

    36. Re:I'm torn on this issue... by jc42 · · Score: 1

      Suppose these poems this guy wrote described in intimate detail what it's like to have sex with his wife. ... And if he does this, what would get it into public view?

      Hey, ask Paris Hilton about that! ;-)

      Though we might note that her owning the copyright hasn't been too effective at blocking distribution. But chances are that she could get a pretty good settlement for "actual damages" if she presses infringement charges.

      OTOH, the court might observe that she is a professional actor, and as such, the term is "publicity", not "damages". Then the judge would order her to pay distribution fees.

      --
      Those who do study history are doomed to stand helplessly by while everyone else repeats it.
    37. Re:I'm torn on this issue... by Artifakt · · Score: 1

      Not directly - i.e. Notarizing something is free to 3$ or so vrs. the 30$ for registration, but if the case goes to court, all copyright cases are federal, so if the judge has a strong preference for a legal paperwork trail that is established entirely within federal organizations, ANY other alternative could be more expensive, because the judge just might refuse to take it as evidence.

      --
      Who is John Cabal?
  6. I guess my age shows ..... by a-aiyar · · Score: 4, Interesting
    Robotech Master wrote:
    People may remember librarian Brewster Kahle as the man behind Archive.org's Wayback Machine and the Internet Bookmobile.

    I remember Brewster from when he developed WAIS ......

    1. Re:I guess my age shows ..... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      Pfft.

      I remember Brewster from when he "inherited" thirty million dollars and had to spend it all in one month to get his real inheritance of 300 million dollars.

    2. Re:I guess my age shows ..... by SubliminalCriminal80 · · Score: 1

      wasn't there a colorful punky orphan involved and an old man

  7. This could be bad IMO by Lonath · · Score: 3, Interesting

    After all, licenses like BSD and MIT/X are basically public domain anyway. The only difference is that they explicitly disclaim warranty. This is the only reason why I have released software into MIT/X instead of PD. I don't want to get sued if I release it under PD. This would mean I would have to register everything I do with the copyright office or it's automatically under PD? I would support this if there was a way to release writings into PD without incurring any liability for how they are used. I hope they take that into account.

    1. Re:This could be bad IMO by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why would you be sued for something you created? Maybe if you wrote something libelous, or something that violated a contract with your employer (publishing top secret widget schematics, etc). But then it wouldn't matter what license you placed it under.

      Similarly, if you wrote software, you might get sued for a few reasons. The software might maliciously damage the user's computer, or contain spyware. It might not fulfill the requirements of the contract which you signed when you agreed to write it. You may be selling it under false pretenses. But if you release it into the public domain (voluntarily or involuntarily) and somebody happens to stumble upon a copy, I don't imagine that there is anything they could do to you, even if a bug in the software causes millions of dollars in data loss.

    2. Re:This could be bad IMO by Lonath · · Score: 1

      Good point. I couldn't find the example now, but I remember somewhere on the Internet (so it must be true) that someone released software into the PD and some people used it in some project at a company and somehow the original author got sued for some reason. It seemed silly to me at the time, but I took it at face value, and now I don't know where it is. Oh well.

  8. Summary: burden authors to make his life easier by geekee · · Score: 1, Insightful

    In summary, the plaintiff is annoyed that he has to track down authors to get permission to publish their books online. So he wants the law to change back so that authors need to be burdened with paperwork and fees to obtain copyright because he doesn't want to spend the time and money getting permission from the authors. Standard practice of trying to use the govt. to make your life easier at the expense of someone elses constitutional rights.

    --
    Vote for Pedro
    1. Re:Summary: burden authors to make his life easier by chromatic · · Score: 5, Funny

      A lot of those authors are easy to track down. The problem is in getting 70+ year old corpses to sign legal forms.

      Any law that requires raising the dead for the public good is bad law.

    2. Re:Summary: burden authors to make his life easier by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Standard practice of trying to use the govt. to make your life easier at the expense of someone elses constitutional rights.

      I don't think that getting rid of automatic copyright is a good idea. However, he is trying to invalidate something the Government has done, and I don't see how it could affect anyone's constitutional rights. So your comment seems a little silly. No, it seems a lot silly.

    3. Re:Summary: burden authors to make his life easier by iminplaya · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Standard practice of trying to use the govt. to make your life easier at the expense of someone elses constitutional rights.

      That's precisely what "unconditional copyright" does. The author is expecting the gov't to automatically protect his work without any effort on the author's part. If the author wants protection, he should have to go out and "buy" it like anything else. Too many people looking for a fast buck on everything they utter. "Endless copyrights"..."automatic copyrights"... What next? Do you want the gov't to go through the trouble of thinking up the idea for you also?

      --
      What?
    4. Re:Summary: burden authors to make his life easier by simonfairfax · · Score: 0

      IANAL, but what if instead of Kahle's proposal, we changed the system so that copyright is the same as it is right now while the author is alive, but requires the author's estate to register (and keep re registering) when he dies?

    5. Re:Summary: burden authors to make his life easier by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Standard practice of trying to use the govt. to make your life easier at the expense of someone elses constitutional rights.

      In case you didn't notice, part of the argument against blanket copyright on everything is that it creates an undue burden on everyone's right to Freedom of Speech. If I want to quote from a book, but the author/copyright holder is unknown or cannot be located or is dead (or in the case of a corporate entity, has been dissolved). You are effectively barred from making use of the work, thus infringing upon your right to Free Speech

      Note that Free Speech is a constitutionally *guaranteed* (i.e., required) right while Copyright Protection is a constitutionally *allowed* but not required right. In my book, anything the Constitution says MUST be granted trumps something that it says MAY be granted when you have to pick one or the other.

      Suppose someone else, somewhere had one time penned a note in 5th grade to their buddy - on that note was written "Standard practice of trying to use the govt. to make your life easier at the expense of someone elses constitutional rights." Guess what... you are in violation of their copyright.

      This actually raised another set of questions for me...

      What happens to copyright when an author dies absent direct instructions in a will?

      Most wills do not contain a clause assigning the right of intellectual property to heirs... is it automatically considered "joint property of all heirs" (i.e., you must get permission from ALL of the heirs to use it) or does it revert to control of the government (like, I believe, property does in a death with no will and no obvious direct legal heirs such as a spouse)?

      If it *does* revert to the government, is it not then immediately entered into the public domain, since all work produced/owned by the government is by definition in the public domain?

      Would checking on copyright for a dead person then be as simple as checking their will for a clause assigning control of copyrighted material to others - and if it's not there, it's public domain (life of the author + 70 years notwithstanding) as it is now government-owned (and therefore PD)?

      Might we in fact be sitting on a gold mine of PD material that we simply don't realize is in the PD because ownership of it reverted to the government?

      Does this make it all the more important to preserve wills and/or make them public documents of record (if they are not already)?

      Just some random thoughts...

      --AC

    6. Re:Summary: burden authors to make his life easier by tsg · · Score: 2, Insightful

      1. There is no constitutional right to copyright. The progress clause of the Constitution gives Congress the authority to create copyright laws, but does not guarantee these rights to authors and inventors in any way, shape or form. Nor does it require Congress to make these laws. Congress could abolish all copyright laws tomorrow and not be in violation of the Constitution.

      2. The plaintiff is specifically concerned with books that are no longer published but are still protected by copyright. Books that would otherwise be unavailable to the public.

      3. The progress clause of the consitution limits Congress' authority to laws which "promote the progress of science and useful arts". I fail to see how automatically protecting works that are unavailable to the public promotes progress of anything.

      Copyright is the means, not the end. The end is the benefit society receives by making creative works available to the public. Copyright is the incentive to do so. If the works aren't available to the public, why do they deserve protection?

      --
      People's desire to believe they are right is much stronger than their desire to be right.
    7. Re:Summary: burden authors to make his life easier by ChrisMaple · · Score: 1

      Estate executors and inheritors are often immensely ignorant of the content and value of the estate. Several years may elapse before such value is understood. It hardly seems right that heirs should be required to find, evaluate, and quickly pay to extend the copyright.

      --
      Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
    8. Re:Summary: burden authors to make his life easier by spood · · Score: 1

      Excuse me, but how does unconditional copyright make an author's life easier at the expense of my constitutional rights? Do I have the constitutional right to freely copy anyone's work? Please tell me which constitution you are talking about - it can't be the one that governs this country.

      The principle of a copyright is to provide incentive for authors to publish their ideas. This is done by guaranteeing their right to reproduce and, by extension, profit from their own ideas. This promotes the public good by increasing the flow of ideas.

      The cheaper it is for authors to obtain copyright, the greater incentive to publish. Unconditional copyright is as cheap as it gets - free! Once you start charging for copyright, you have to set up a system to collect that fee, which leads to other inefficiencies, and you limit the author's financial means to legally defend a copyright.

      If you want to start arguing that copyright fees could go toward legal fees for pursuing copyright infringement, you then have to decide whether you think the government would do a better job of managing this system or if authors would be better off with a private free-market solution to defense of copyright.

      However, "endless copyrights" and "automatic copyrights" are independent concepts. One can have an automatic copyright which expires 15 years from the date of first publish just the same as one can have an automatic indefinite copyright.

      The concept of an "endless copyright" (which effectively already exists - refer to Larry Lessig and others for the argument) is not in the best interest of the public because it allows authors to attempt to collect on one idea for the rest of their lives (and childrens' lives) without ever producing a single new idea. A limited copyright provides continued incentive for creation.

      So, an unconditional, limited-term copyright is in the best interest of public good. If an author does not wish his idea to enter the public domain, he should never publish it. Seems pretty obvious once you think about it.

      I choose Disney for a real-world example. Disney's heirs have successfully litigated to extend the copyright to protect Mickey Mouse every time the expiration date has come due. You could argue that even Mickey was not originally Disney's creation (see Simpsons satires), but let's assume that it was. Since then, Disney has been repackaging others' works and reselling them as their primary line of business, whilst profiting from the original Mickey "line". They have not profited from a single new idea of their own in 80 years! Contrast with Pixar, a company that creates new material not only in form but in content. Which company do we want to reward? Should we continue to allow Disney to profit from legislation which keeps the company alive with no useful contribution to society? Investors are wising up to Disney's underachieving business plan, why can't we?

      --
      ---- Just another spud server.
    9. Re:Summary: burden authors to make his life easier by iminplaya · · Score: 1

      ...you then have to decide whether you think the government would do a better job of managing this system or if authors would be better off with a private free-market solution to defense of copyright.

      I don't ever want to give any private company the power to levy fines or to determine punishment. That's why we have a gov't. That is only for the gov't set up by its citezens to do. I'll re-state for you: You pay for the police to protect your life and your property. You should also pay for this kind of protection.

      Unconditional copyright is as cheap as it gets - free!

      Looking for gov't freebies, are we? It's not free to the tax payer. It's just another form of welfare, every bit as bad as tobacco subsidies.

      --
      What?
    10. Re:Summary: burden authors to make his life easier by spood · · Score: 1

      I don't ever want to give any private company the power to levy fines or to determine punishment. That's why we have a gov't. That is only for the gov't set up by its citezens to do. I'll re-state for you: You pay for the police to protect your life and your property. You should also pay for this kind of protection.

      I wasn't suggesting that the private company be empowered to usurp the role of the judicial branch, simply that a private system is more efficient and economical for tracking and pursuing copyright interests. However, since I don't believe that content creators should be responsible for registration fees, I consider this a moot point.

      It's interesting that you make the point that we pay (through taxes) for the government to protect our life and property. Why should we pay a separate fee in order for the government to protect our intellectual property?

      Looking for gov't freebies, are we? It's not free to the tax payer. It's just another form of welfare, every bit as bad as tobacco subsidies.

      Unconditional copyright isn't the same thing as a tobacco subsidy. Tobacco subsidies involve direct monetary contribution of tax funds to tobacco growers. By calling unconditional copyright "welfare", you are saying that government directly contributes monetary funds to content creators each time a work is published. If I argued to abolish the tax on gasoline (as I am arguing to abolish the tax on copyright), would you accuse me of promoting "motorist welfare"?

      I will make your argument for you, since you seem to be struggling with it. The direct cost of unconditional copyright to the taxpayer is incurred when the judicial system is forced to hear an increased number of copyright infringement cases due to the lowered barrier-to-entry of publishing copyrightable content and the greater funds available to pursue those copyright interests. I can't speculate as to what this cost would be, but the majority of litigation these days is a financial burden on plaintiffs and defendants, not the judicial system itself. The societal cost is far outweighed by the benefits of increased incentive to publish IMHO.

      I applaud your crusade against welfare in all its forms, but be careful how you define welfare.

      --
      ---- Just another spud server.
    11. Re:Summary: burden authors to make his life easier by iminplaya · · Score: 1

      However, since I don't believe that content creators should be responsible for registration fees, I consider this a moot point.

      Using that line of reasoning, a car owner shouldn't have to buy his own gas.

      If I argued to abolish the tax on gasoline (as I am arguing to abolish the tax on copyright), would you accuse me of promoting "motorist welfare"?

      Yes, I would. That tax is what should pay for the roads, insurance, etc.

      By calling unconditional copyright "welfare", you are saying that government directly contributes monetary funds to content creators each time a work is published.

      If the gov't is protecting a certain economic segment of our society without charging that segment specifically then it is contributing monetary funds to that segment. It's the same as corporate tax breaks. It is a subsidy.

      I applaud your crusade against welfare in all its forms, but be careful how you define welfare.

      I'm absolutely not against welfare in all its forms. Only where it is not deserved. Bill Maher said (paraphrase) "The biggest welfare queens wear overalls." I can add, "They also wear Armani"

      My point is that if you want gov't service, you should pay the fees.

      --
      What?
    12. Re:Summary: burden authors to make his life easier by spood · · Score: 1

      If the gov't is protecting a certain economic segment of our society without charging that segment specifically then it is contributing monetary funds to that segment. It's the same as corporate tax breaks. It is a subsidy.

      I understand your point. However, there is a big difference between the forms of government protection you are using for your argument than the protections provided by copyright law.

      When the government taxes gasoline to provide the revenue to fund public transportation infrastructure, it takes funds from the beneficiaries and directs them into the creation of roads. Roads are not free.

      When the government taxes copyright, what service is it providing? Writing a law into a book? In order to take advantage of copyright law, a copyright holder still has to provide his own funds to initiate litigation against copyright violators.

      In the context of the gas tax/transportation example, if the act of driving on roads produced more tax revenue (via interstate commerce tariffs, etc.) than the roads themselves cost to maintain and produce, would you still advocate a gas tax so we aren't "subsidizing" motorists?

      As I argued before, the only cost incurred by the goverment is the potential for increased case load in the judicial system. And as I argued before, I believe that this cost incurred by society for "subsidizing" content creators is outweighed by the benefit society gains from the ideas, art, etc. produced by this group. Unfortunately the value of ideas is difficult to quantify, but it appears that our difference of opinion lies in how valuable we perceive ideas to be.

      --
      ---- Just another spud server.
    13. Re:Summary: burden authors to make his life easier by iminplaya · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately the value of ideas is difficult to quantify, but it appears that our difference of opinion lies in how valuable we perceive ideas to be.

      I consider the value of my ideas by the number of people using them. If nobody can use them, it's obvious they have absolutely no value. I would feel as if I made no contribution to anyone.

      --
      What?
    14. Re:Summary: burden authors to make his life easier by spood · · Score: 1

      That's a fair definition, but how do you know in advance how useful your ideas are? How do you know which ideas are worth paying the tax to register and how many are you willing just to throw out there with no protection for yourself? Or worse yet, what's your motivation for publishing your ideas if you're not sure how valuable they are going to be? The tax introduces a threshold below which society says "don't bother publishing", and that threshold may be perceived differently by different authors.

      You say that the value of ideas is measured by the number of people using them. But that value can't be measured until after an idea is published. How can you assign a tax to something that by your definition does not yet have a value attached?

      --
      ---- Just another spud server.
    15. Re:Summary: burden authors to make his life easier by iminplaya · · Score: 1

      I got off on a tangent there with this. Basically, yous takes your chances like anything else. No guarantees. My point is this. The gov't is "nice" enough to offer this service to protect IP. The service should be paid for by the users. If you want copyright, go out and buy the protection that the gov't offers. It's not a "right". It's a service. You have to buy a license for your car. There's no reason to treat this any differently.

      --
      What?
  9. Berne convention by Boing · · Score: 5, Interesting
    The Berne Convention, mentioned in the faq, requires that member nations may not impose formalities (read: registration) on works from other member nations.

    Since authors are, largely, unlikely to care about the rights of people who want to derive from their works, couldn't a reinstatement of copyright registration for works within the United States theoretically drive authors to nominally publish their works in other nations (in order to get automatic protection as per the current U.S. system), and thus drive creativity out of the U.S.?

    I don't know if this would occur in practice, and I'm not saying it's a good reason to maintain a flawed system, but it seems like something to think about if/when we design new copyright policy.

    1. Re:Berne convention by dmayle · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Ahhh, you missed the wording in the FAQ. The Berne convention says nothing about works from other member nations. It prohibits imposing formalities on works from authors from other member nations.

      Changing where you publish from doesn't change your nationality, unless you stay to apply for citizenship, and then through direct action before the U.S. judicial system, revoke your own U.S. citizenship (If you don't formally revoke your citizenship in front of the U.S. judicial system, you will retain dual citizenship, even if that's in contradiction with the laws of your new country).

      Finally, I think you overestimate the loss of author control this would bring about. Authors lived under a system of registration for literally hundreds of years before it just recently changed.

    2. Re:Berne convention by argmanah · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Changing where you publish from doesn't change your nationality, unless you stay to apply for citizenship, and then through direct action before the U.S. judicial system, revoke your own U.S. citizenship (If you don't formally revoke your citizenship in front of the U.S. judicial system, you will retain dual citizenship, even if that's in contradiction with the laws of your new country).

      Actually, that's not entirely true. While you are correct is saying that being naturalized by a foreign nation does not automatically cause loss of citizenship, that person does not automatically retain citizenship either. If the person commits the act with the intent of renouncing his U.S. citizenship, then the citizenship is lost.

      The way they handle intent is they simply ask you the next time a question of your citizenship comes up before the consulate. If you say you intended to keep it, you keep it. If you say you intended to lose it, you lose it.

      You can also formally renounce your citizenship at any U.S. Consulate, or by affirming in writing to any U.S. Consular officer after being naturalized by a foreign country (basically, making the issue come before them now, and affirming you intended to lose it).

      --
      Overrated Moderation: This posts sucks... because.
    3. Re:Berne convention by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Many seemingly American movies claim that the country of first publication is U.K. Is this why?

    4. Re:Berne convention by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Out of morbid curiousity, is it possible to renounce your citizenship without being a citizen of any other country? Or what would happen if you, say, were a native-born US citizen, became a citizen of some other country, which then collapsed, was absorbed into another country or otherwise ceased to be without giving you a new citizenship to any other country.

      What I'm getting at is, what would happen if you wound up with no citizenship anywhere? (and where would they deport you to?)

      Heh, old programming instincts... I'm always wondering what happens at the 'edge cases' ... :)

    5. Re:Berne convention by Elwood+P+Dowd · · Score: 1

      That's why it would be important to make copyright registration fantastically easy. The goal is not to prevent people from copyrighting things that they would like to copyright. The goal is to allow the public access to works that were never intended to be copyrighted.

      This comment on slashdot, for example.

      --

      There are no trails. There are no trees out here.
  10. Abandonware by panthro · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Would this case, if ruled in Kahle's favor, make abandonware legal?

    People have been distributing old, abandoned software (mostly from the 1980s) on web sites for years, knowing that it is illegal but under the likely correct assumption that they are doing the publisher no harm whatsoever. I have never heard of any true abandonware resulting in legal action, but currently a company that holds the copyright for a program can go after someone distributing it online for free. It makes no difference if they still sell it, support it or even remember it exists.

    Of course, there would have to be some kind of definition for what constitutes abandonware, but that would be the case with all other works as well so I'm confident they'll figure that part out. I hope Kahle wins this one, personally.

    --
    If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
    1. Re:Abandonware by iminplaya · · Score: 1

      Of course, there would have to be some kind of definition for what constitutes abandonware...

      This is why renewal should be mandatory. If you don't renew your IP every 5 years for instance, it should be considered abandoned and go to public domain, and no take backs.

      --
      What?
    2. Re:Abandonware by pavon · · Score: 1
      I don't know. All they are asking is for the courts to declare unconditional copyright unconstitutional. The actual state of copyright law after that would depend on congress:

      13. If you win, how could copyright law change?

      There are many ways Congress could change the copyright law back to a conditional system and still remain in compliance with the Berne Convention. One way would be to re-impose formalities for all works of U.S. authors -- these are most works published in the U.S., and Berne doesn't prohibit signatory nations from imposing formalities on their own authors. Another would be to pass the Public Domain Enhancement Act, which would impose a tiny renewal fee designed to move unused copyrighted work into the public domain. The PDEA also wouldn't violate Berne, because it would apply only to works of U.S. authors.

      Another possibly valid option that they didn't mention was to require an initial registration which lasts the extent of your copyright term, without the need for registration. That would not be unconditional copyright, but would do nothing for abandonware since all of it would have been registered at one point.

      I guess it would also depend on reason that the supreme court gave when deciding why unconditional copyright is unconstitional. If it is determined that not requiring renewal allows non-comercial work to be locked up, which actually hurts progress, then I would think that renewal would have to be part of the replacement. But if it is for one of their other reasons, who knows.
    3. Re:Abandonware by runderwo · · Score: 3, Interesting
      I was recently threatened with a lawsuit because the BSA found a copy of Watcom C++ 10 on my web server. You can find more details at the Open Watcom newsgroup from a few weeks back, under a thread about library licensing.

      I was absolutely dumbstruck that they would spend the time and money to search out and C&D me on such an inconsequential item, an 8 year old compiler. Even more ludicrous is that this compiler was released as open source not too long ago. It is possible that people whose code was not included in the open source release might not like it to be distributed without permission, but they claimed to be acting on behalf of Sybase. The people who open sourced Watcom in the first place!

      I removed the file after an fruitless email exchange and several calls from my ISP. It's just not worth the bother to fight the copyright cops, no matter how illogical their actions are.

    4. Re:Abandonware by Gr8Apes · · Score: 1

      Isn't this what SCO is doing?

      --
      The cesspool just got a check and balance.
    5. Re:Abandonware by panthro · · Score: 1

      The BSA? Aren't those the guys who drive around in vans equipped with patented Pirated Software Detector satellite dishes and radar units?

      --
      If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
    6. Re:Abandonware by iainl · · Score: 1

      Sybase are listed in the BSA database as the owners of Watcom. The BSA, however, are interested in generating statistics that billions of dollars worth of software is being pirated - they don't have time to actually bother asking Sybase themselves if they care about it.

      There are innumerable examples of them doing similiarly stupid things, so you're hardly alone.

      --
      "I Know You Are But What Am I?"
    7. Re:Abandonware by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Isn't this what SCO is doing?


      No.

      Stop trying to look popular by dragging SCO into everything please.

  11. I get mad then I get ... by airrage · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    I read the article and with every line I got more and more angry. Then I closed the article and I couldn't really recall what they were talking about ....

    --
    "This isn't a study in computer science, its a study in human behavior"
  12. One small problem with logic here. by SillyNickName4me · · Score: 2, Interesting

    From the FAQ:

    > a freedom, it should be noted, that was granted by an author's voluntary decision not to register his work.

    One can as easily reason that first of all, in the old situation, many people would not obtain a copyright simply due to lack of knowledge, means for registration etc.

    In the new system an author can still take the voluntary decision to keep a work free by explicitly putting it in the public domain.

    The FAQ argues that this makes life more difficult for people trying to preserve things in the digital domain, but that is soemthign that I believe can be addressed by fair use. The FAQ also claims that the new system does nothing to protect authors, but that is not true, it makes that authors can do waht they are best at, creating works.

    The term of copyright, the unfair limitation of user rights, and fair use are the issues, not automatic copyright.

  13. I don't see a problem here. by baudilus · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I may be missing something, but I think the current unconditional system is OK if other considerations are made. Works are copyrighted regardless of the will of the author, which seems OK. The only problem I see is with proof of ownership documents. I imagine someone falsely claiming that "I wrote this and authorized so-and-so to use it in his college thesis."

    The only solution I see is that if the author WANTS to grant rights to any or all, he must prove ownership beforehand. Otherwise, it's more of a hinderance than a help.

    The upside is that owners of works who have not explicity copyrighted their material still have rights.

    Then again, it may just be bunk.

  14. Orphan works by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

    The works described as "orphan works" in the linked FAQ show a need for some sort of copyright reform. Clearly, there are works out there which hold a good deal of intellectual value, but hold no commercial value for their owner.

    Perhaps what we need is some sort of system that if a work has not been used commercially for x period of time, it should be deemed to have no commercial viability and be released to the public domain.

    1. Re:Orphan works by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's what the Progress Clause of the United States Constitution already does?

      After a set(and limited) period of time, the author relinquishes the rights to commercially distribute a work, and the work becomes the property of the public.

      The case isn't saying the X should be public domain because it was written Y years ago. The case is saying X shouldn't be copyrighted any further because Y years have passed and the author shows no interest in renewing the copyright.

      If you want to keep it copyrighted, there is a process to do so, and people who want to use your work have information availible to do so legally. If you don't want to keep the copyright, the work passes into general use and people who want to use your work have all legal rights to its use.

    2. Re:Orphan works by Xeth · · Score: 1
      Perhaps what we need is some sort of system that if a work has not been used commercially for x period of time, it should be deemed to have no commercial viability and be released to

      Great, so then we'd have Disney releasing crappy straight to video movies every week to make sure none of their characters accidentally slips out of their hands...

      --
      If your theory is different from practice, then your theory is wrong.
    3. Re:Orphan works by GlassHeart · · Score: 1
      Clearly, there are works out there which hold a good deal of intellectual value, but hold no commercial value for their owner.

      This line is a gem. One really important thing to realize is that not all value is expressible in money.

      Perhaps what we need is some sort of system that if a work has not been used commercially for x period of time, it should be deemed to have no commercial viability and be released to the public domain.

      This isn't any easier from the perspective of the future person who wants to use the work but cannot locate the original author. What you really want to be able to do is to open the book to the copyright page, and see if it's been X years. Failing that, having to check an easily-accessible government registry is still acceptable. However, "real research" is likely going to be beyond the abilities and resources of most people.

      Also, what's "used commercially"? If I have a friend pay me $1 every year for it, does that count? Consider also that many works have only become valuable after the author's death, so it would be rightful (in the sense of encouraging creativity even if you won't personally benefit) for the author's designated beneficiaries to receive some protection.

  15. The Million Permission Project by modder · · Score: 2, Insightful

    "But many books fall into a nether region. These are works that are not commercially viable and therefore not widely available to the public, but are nevertheless subject to continuing copyright protection."

    In the event that they cannot convince Ashcroft, they could also start another project which would automate and simplify the process of obtaining this permission.

    If anything, making it easier to access this type of information would be beneficial for both the authors and those in search of using their work.

  16. Another Possible Problem by ewhac · · Score: 4, Insightful

    This suit seeks to have the laws that implement the Berne Convention struck down as unconstitutional. However, my highly inexpert reading of the Constitution reveals that the Constitution and all treaties entered into by the US are the supreme law of the land. The Berne Convention is just such an international treaty. Thus, it would seem that the supremacy clause trumps any argument Lessig et al may bring before the court, since the terms of the Berne Convention enjoy equal footing with the Constitution.

    Now, if the US enters into a treaty that is in direct opposition to the Constitution, which document wins? I have no idea if this issue in Constitutional law has ever been addressed.

    Schwab

    1. Re:Another Possible Problem by SoTuA · · Score: 2, Funny
      Now, if the US enters into a treaty that is in direct opposition to the Constitution, which document wins? I have no idea if this issue in Constitutional law has ever been addressed.

      It would serve as a legally binding way of proving the country's congress is a band of drooling morons, as, in most civilized countries, such treaties signed by the executive must be approved by congress. (like, for example, Free Trade Agreements)

    2. Re:Another Possible Problem by FearUncertaintyDoubt · · Score: 2, Informative
      Actually, the article addresses this.

      The Berne Convention is the most significant international treaty governing copyright, and it includes a provision prohibiting member states from imposing copyright formalities on the works of authors from other member states.

      One way would be to re-impose formalities for all works of U.S. authors -- these are most works published in the U.S., and Berne doesn't prohibit signatory nations from imposing formalities on their own authors.

    3. Re:Another Possible Problem by krlynch · · Score: 1

      I believe that you are misinterpreting that Section of the Constitution. What it is saying is that the Constitution and any legal structures enacted pursuant to its requirements trump all other laws. The Constitution trumps Federal law and international treaties, which trumps State and local laws, common law, natural law, etc.

      But Federal laws and treaties must conform to the legal structures imposed by the Constitution ... so a treaty that is found by the Supreme Court to violate a provision of the Constitution is null and unenforceable.

    4. Re:Another Possible Problem by cpt+kangarooski · · Score: 5, Informative

      Yeah, that's a common misreading. Treaties enjoy equal status with federal law, not the Constitution.

      For example, you could have a treaty that directly imposed a tax on Americans, but since the Constitution requires that the House propose taxes, and treaties only involve the President and the Senate, that treaty is not going to have any force.

      --
      -- This and all my posts are in the public domain. I am a lawyer. I am not your lawyer, and this is not legal advice.
    5. Re:Another Possible Problem by MenTaLguY · · Score: 1

      This is correct.

      Also, in a case where Federal Law and treaties conflict, the most recently enacted wins.

      Whether Federal Law trumps State Law in all cases is a different (and interesting) question.

      [ Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, I've gotten myself in trouble in this area before. The below is my understanding though... ]

      In theory any powers not explicitly granted the Federal government by the constitution are reserved for the states. An exception is made for issues of interstate commerce, so in practice everything is pretty much done under that banner.

      That, and since the States take a lot of Federal money, the Federal government can effectively just say "Do what we say, or we're taking away your allowance."

      --

      DNA just wants to be free...
  17. Unconstitional? by Jay+Bucks · · Score: 5, Insightful
    Obviously perpetual copyrights are unconstitional. It explicitly says so in Article 1 of the Constitution...

    "To promote the progress of science and useful arts, by securing for limited times to authors and inventors the exclusive right to their respective writings and discoveries;"

    Notice how no execeptions are made for abandonware, shareware, vaporware, freeware or any other type. So now the question to ask seems to be what constitutes limited? My limited copyright time doesnt seem to equal Mickey Mouse's.

    Jason
    Argue About Stuff

    1. Re:Unconstitional? by Dhalka226 · · Score: 1

      Well, not to be a smartass, but limited means that it's not unlimited; ie, that it does have a termination point.

      The rulings that have come down in cases like this seem to indicate that at least the current Court has decided that "limited" is whatever Congress decides it is. The section you quoted is within the section enumerating Congressional powers, so that ruling makes some sense.

      Of course what you should do in situations where you don't agree with the Court's opinion is to read the dissenting opinions, and to find out what reasoning the justices used to decide in the manner you hoped would prevail. Interestingly, the idea you presented does appear: That the new copyright terms make the copyright period virtually unlimited. Other ideas include that it puts the First Amendment and the Copyright Clause at odds with one another; that is to say, that the near-perpetual extension of copyright effects the manner in which it may be disseminated, which becomes an issue of free speech. Justice Stevens, on the other hand, argues that s 1964 precedent that "a State could not 'extend the life of a patent beyond its expiration date,'" applies to Congress. He argues that if Congress is forbidden from making ex post facto laws--for example, that it would not be proper for Congress to pass a bill limiting patent term once a patent was granted under previous requirements--that the government, as a representative of the public, should be likewise forbidden from making an agreement that extends the inventor's monopoly against the public. Very interesting arguement.

      Hopefully, the Kahle case is incorporating some of these arguments. It's obviously sound legal reasoning if a Supreme Court justice wrote it to begin with. However, the problem is that the decision was 7-2 meaning that the arguements would need to persuade three justices to switch sides, or that three justices other than Stevens or Breyer need to retire and be replaced--with people who agree with Stevens/Breyer, no less. 7-2 is regarded as a strong decision, one that is not likely to be overturned in the near future.

      Long story short, I guess: It is said the Supreme Court likes to review itself every 20 years or so. We're in for a long haul. Once again, like in 2000, analysts are expecting 2004 to be an important election in that the winner may get to appoint a number of Supreme Court justices. For good or bad. I don't expect Kahle to make much impact. The SC precedent is set until they, or subsequent Courts, are prepared to overturn it.

      (Majority opinion and the two dissenting opinions in Eldred were used to base the summaries upon.)

  18. Trying to overturn Berne? by frankie · · Score: 4, Interesting
    Sadly, I don't see Kahle winning this case. The current Supreme Court has shown itself to be quite unwilling to smack down Congress if the end result is "inconvenient". For example, they let Veeck vs SBCCI stand, which allows laws to be copyrighted by private entities.

    Not to mention, the Berne Convention is a world-wide treaty (and well-liked by megacorps) that may as well be carved in an adamantium tablet. No way they'd be willing to disadvantage US content owners while foreign copyrights are being extended just as freely.

    1. Re:Trying to overturn Berne? by Animats · · Score: 2, Informative
      For example, they let Veeck vs SBCCI stand, which allows laws to be copyrighted by private entities.

      No, no. The Fifth Circuit ruled for Veeck, and the Supreme Court let that stand. Veeck put a "copyrighted" building code on the Internet, and the Fifth Circuit ruled this was legal, whether the author of the code liked it or not.

  19. "If the author doesn't want the work released" by Atanamis · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The issue they are questioning is whether the work should be protected if the author doesn't care. The suit is stating that for a work to be protected, the author ought to be required to express a desire for it to be protected. Also, the author could then provide some means for contact so that permission can be requested.

    I agree that difficulty of access does not make it permissible to use without authorization, but see little value in restricting access to works where the author doesn't care. Requiring the author to request and renew copyright merely ensures that they are still interested in maintaining the rights to their work.

    --
    Atanamis
  20. What about retro appeal by modder · · Score: 1

    "Perhaps what we need is some sort of system that if a work has not been used commercially for x period of time, it should be deemed to have no commercial viability and be released to the public domain."

    What if someone is intentionally holding on to something (which currently has no commercial appeal any more) in order to use it later for some sort of retro throwback appeal, which would make it commercially viable again? Would they be able to prevent this slip into the public domain somehow?

    1. Re:What about retro appeal by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Perhaps there could be some sort of exception for this, such as some form of registration for works that would fall into this category.

    2. Re:What about retro appeal by Frennzy · · Score: 1

      I think a good example of this would be MAME (or, more specifically, the ROM emulators from classic arcade games). When nobody thought it was profitable, nothing was done with it. Some enthusiasts took the time to develop MAME, and then the copyright holders came out of the woodwork after seeing actual interest in the ROMs, trying to capitalize on the interest.

      Well, actually that's not exactly a great example, but it's something of interest to the topic at hand...

    3. Re:What about retro appeal by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, won't someone PLEASE think of the poor IP squatters!

    4. Re:What about retro appeal by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But would you really want just anybody making Scooby Doo 2?

    5. Re:What about retro appeal by hesiod · · Score: 1

      > But would you really want just anybody making Scooby Doo 2?

      Quite the opposite. I really want NOBODY making that.

  21. The Court doesn't like repeat challenges by GPLDAN · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The history of the Supreme Court shows very little traction for the reframing of constitutional questions and going back up. Even though they make a big deal about how this isn't Eldred vs. Ashcroft, it really is a distinction the court will find tenuous. They got shot down on the copyright extensions, they will get shot down on the inclusionary aspects of this.

    I believe they are right and the court is wrong on Eldred, but until a Democratic president can get in for another 8 years and Kennedy and Scalia get the boot, they won't win.

    1. Re:The Court doesn't like repeat challenges by multriha · · Score: 1

      While I admit that I'll be surprised if they win as well, this case is really distinct from Eldred v. Ashcroft, and actually relies heavily on the decisions from it.

    2. Re:The Court doesn't like repeat challenges by kwpulliam · · Score: 1

      What does a Democratic President being in office for another 8 years have to do with the issue? The Sonny Bono act was signed by a Democratic President. Pehaps you need to limit your comments to those relative to the issue (i.e. A change in court membership for which a change in presidential party is not required).

    3. Re:The Court doesn't like repeat challenges by Experiment+626 · · Score: 1

      I believe they are right and the court is wrong on Eldred, but until a Democratic president can get in for another 8 years and Kennedy and Scalia get the boot, they won't win.

      Clinton signed the DMCA and SBCEA, Eldred v. Ashcroft was originally Eldred v. Reno. What makes you think a Democratic president would be any more likely to appoint copyright-reforming Justices than a Republican would? Positions on IP issues seem to be fairly independent of party affiliation. Sure, Republicans have a reputation for siding with big business, but Democrats are similarly in thrall to entertainment industry special interests and trial lawyers, who love oppressive copyright laws. And you'll find people who "get it" on both sides of the aisle, in about equal numbers, which sadly are too uncommon.

    4. Re:The Court doesn't like repeat challenges by eclectro · · Score: 2, Interesting


      but until a Democratic president can get in for another 8 years

      Let's not forget that the last "Democratic" president sold us down the river by signing the DMCA (Digital Millenium Copyright Act) and CTEA (Copyright Term Extension Act) into law. His name is Bill Clinton.

      I consider the CTEA the more egregious of the two, as it is a complete handout to a few corporate interests with nothing given back to the public in return. But this seems to be congress' standard operating procedure (SOP) these days.

      There is no indication that the current presidential candidates (esp. frontrunner Kerry) would not do the do the same. Indeed, his website mentions nothing about copyright issues or "digital rights".

      and Kennedy and Scalia get the boot, they won't win.

      Appointments to the court are for life. So the only way they get the "boot" is if they "kick the bucket".

      Let's not forget the decision in Eldred vs. Ashcroft (challenging CTEA) was 7 to 2, meaning it was not even close.

      I had thought (along with others) that the current court's propensity to limit federal powers would come into play here, but it did not. Essentially they said that while extending copyright terms may be a bad idea, it is within congress' power to do so.

      While I'm glad to see Kahle vs. Ashcroft, it is for this reason I believe that it is doomed.

      Even though they make a big deal about how this isn't Eldred vs. Ashcroft, it really is a distinction the court will find tenuous. They got shot down on the copyright extensions, they will get shot down on the inclusionary aspects of this.

      The court does occasionally revisit decisions by hearing variants of issues that have appeared before them in the past, and is how they occasionally reverse themselves.

      I do not think that they will get shot down because of the "inclusionary" aspects of the case.

      Rather they will get shot down because most judge's eyes "glass over" when you mention copyright to them, and usually default to giving more rights to copyright holders.

      This coupled with legislators favoring corporate over public interests is why we have the vast expanse called copyright law today.

      --
      Take the cheese to sickbay, the doctor should see it as soon as possible - B'Elanna Torres, "Learning Curve"
    5. Re:The Court doesn't like repeat challenges by Specter · · Score: 1

      While I do believe that the CTEA was a bad piece of legislation, these guys are not going to win this case. They've got basically two claims:

      1) Unlimited automatic copyright is a violation of First Amendment freedom of speech, and

      2) Unlimited automatic copyright is a violation of the Progress clause of the Constitution.

      Their argument for 1) is just mind boggling. Nothing in the copyright clause regulates my freedom of speech. In fact you might argue that it enchances my freedom of speech by granting me ownership and a legal monopoloy of the use of my speech. The CTEA imposes no burden on my free (as in freedom) speech, but it does make my work not free (as in beer).

      As for 2), despite what the plantiffs think this is EXACTLY like Eldred v. Ashcroft because it comes down to the exact same root question. Does the Progress clause let Congress do pretty much anything they want with respect to copyright. The answer provided in Eldred was clear: yes, Congress' lattitude here is pretty wide.

      The plantiffs would be better served by trying for a constitutional amendment or something like the Public Domain Enhancement Act, rather than beating their heads uselessly over legal arguments that are 1) frivilous and 2) already clearly answered.

      Jared

    6. Re:The Court doesn't like repeat challenges by Xenographic · · Score: 1

      I fear that they will not listen or do anything with respect to it unless it wins at whatever appelate court is just below the SCOTUS for this case.

      My guess is that they will say that crafting these exemptions is the responsibility of the Librarian of Congress, and for that reason they need not listen to this case, so they'll probably deny cert unless they have to reverse a lower court decision or something.

      That's not to say I wouldn't like to see this succeed. I mean, if you cannot be bothered to register your copyright (and it's NOT hard, you fill out this little form and you can aggregate your works, so as to make the most use of it), there's no reason to believe that your work is actually worth protecting under copyright...

      And before you ask, note two things:
      1) This would only apply to the work of US citizens.
      2) Yes, those of us in the US would have to register our works to GPL them, but pretty much all the important programs and things are already registered as copyrighted.

    7. Re:The Court doesn't like repeat challenges by sudog · · Score: 1

      Why do you shorten a term to an abbreviation and then never use the abbreviation again?

      It's quite annoying. :)

    8. Re:The Court doesn't like repeat challenges by eclectro · · Score: 1


      SOP

      --
      Take the cheese to sickbay, the doctor should see it as soon as possible - B'Elanna Torres, "Learning Curve"
    9. Re:The Court doesn't like repeat challenges by sudog · · Score: 1

      WSI!

  22. Comments are owned by the Poster. by sulli · · Score: 4, Insightful
    To claim as the plaintiffs do that unconditional copyright has no benefits to the author is ludicrous. The administrative burden of registering every damn thing (website? slashdot comment?) you publish is not something I, or anyone else who wishes to have his/her works protected by copyright for any length of time, wish to have restored.

    The abandonware issue is more substantial. A requirement that copyright be renewed for $1, or that it be deemed abandoned if nobody is available to offer the rights after a reasonable period of time, is more rational. Perhaps one of those evil "activist judges" will so find.

    --

    sulli
    RTFJ.
    1. Re:Comments are owned by the Poster. by Felinoid · · Score: 1

      The question is SHOULD everything you publish be protected?

      Are you going to sue me if I copy your comment?
      How about if I just quote it and you don't like my responce?

      Slashdot news storys... Thies short blurbs are not creative efforts but simply news commentary. Big deal.

      I don't think $1 renwal is a good idea. Under the old system it was "The life of the author plus .." I forget how many years past the authors death.
      There was no fee involved (I'm not saying sending stuff to the copyright office is free or even cheap becouse of the paperwork involved) in the old system.
      But it was "file paperwork and send it off"....
      Again IANAL But I have a Nolo Press book published in the 1980's when you had to regesture everything you wrote.

      --
      I don't actually exist.
    2. Re:Comments are owned by the Poster. by rthille · · Score: 1

      Comments are a part of the fabric of the culture of slashdot, and unless you expect them to be worth something, why do you feel it necessary to reserve all rights?
      Not to mention that putting something on a website that needs to be copied many times in order to be seen by anyone and then 'reserving all rights' is ridiculous.

      --
      Awesome furniture, accessories and cabinetry in Santa Rosa, CA: http://humanity-home.com/
    3. Re:Comments are owned by the Poster. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      When are you supposed to renew it? With whom? How will disputes regarding date of creation be handled? If you don't register this stuff it will be nigh impossible to enforce copyright renewal.

  23. Ok, I'll Clarify by lukewarmfusion · · Score: 1

    I agree with most of your points. I'm not trying to support a perpetual copyright; quite the opposite. I would argue is that copyright is too long - not that it should be removed from people who want it kept.

    If an author wants to protect his work, he should. But only in the interest of him protecting his work and ability to profit from it reasonably. He should be able to extend it to a period if he chooses. But that would require registration. If an author wishes to protect it for a period (say, 20 years) then he shouldn't need that registration requirement. After that point, failure to extend would result in the work being released to the public domain.

    If a vintage TV show is released on DVD, you might buy it. So they keep the copyright.

    It sucks, but if I release a book and then decide that I don't want to sell it anymore, I should be able to stop the distribution. Within reason. Not forever.

    If an author doesn't care (abandonware) then it should lapse and go public domain. If they don't care, then contacting them should result in a "sure, I'll release it to public domain and you can give it away."

    This case is summed up: I want to give stuff away for free, but tracking down authors and getting that release is a lot of work so I'll try to do it in one fell swoop.

    1. Re:Ok, I'll Clarify by Robotech_Master · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You make it sound so banal.

      The thing is, tracking down the authors (or, rather, their rights-holders) can be an impossible task for just one work. And what if all of the survivors of the author don't know which one of them has the rights? Or even if any of them have the rights?

      What if even the records of who owns the rights have been lost? It's almost a self-referential problem...in the era before computers, not only works but the legal documents about the works were stored as paper. And paper can get misplaced, or eaten by insects, or destroyed in fires, floods, etc. What happens to a work that there is no way even to find out who owns it anymore?

      Multiply that by the tens or hundreds of thousands of works out there that are lying fallow, and you begin to see that it's not just "a lot of work." It's an immense, totally impossible amount of work. It's akin to the Augean Stables of Greek myth.

      Thus, just as Hercules creatively rerouted a river through those stables to clean them out, Kahle and the co-plaintiffs are hoping to make the problem of finding the rights-holders for abandoned works irrelevant.

      They're not even talking about stuff that people are still publishing and making money off of. If they're doing that, then they know who the rights holders are, and the rights holders care enough about the stuff to keep it available. They're talking about the stuff that's lying fallow and not benefiting anybody.

      To me, this seems like a pretty good compromise between the Mickey Mouse contingent and the Information Wants to Be Free contingent, if it goes through. Let Disney keep Mickey...let people who care about their works keep them. But let us have the stuff that nobody else wants anymore.

      I'm sure that there will be some sort of well-reasoned and fair mechanism for determining what's been abandoned and what hasn't. I don't think it'll be arbitrary. I do think that it will do us a world of good to make sure this information does not get lost.

      --
      Editor Emeritus and Senior Writer, TeleRead.org
    2. Re:Ok, I'll Clarify by Kwil · · Score: 1

      What if even the records of who owns the rights have been lost? It's almost a self-referential problem...in the era before computers, not only works but the legal documents about the works were stored as paper. And paper can get misplaced, or eaten by insects, or destroyed in fires, floods, etc. What happens to a work that there is no way even to find out who owns it anymore?

      Then who's going to sue?

      --

      That Jesus Christ guy is getting some terrible lag... it took him 3 days to respawn! -NJ CoolBreeze

    3. Re:Ok, I'll Clarify by Seraphim_72 · · Score: 1


      ...Nice post - let me add my rant.

      We have a number of old laser discs in the department and as one by one the players fail over the years I began to try to hunt down the original copywright holders. Long story short I eventually did, but even thier legal department had no record of ever owning the things. They had bought the company that had bought the company that originally produced these (educational) laser discs. So here we are with 40-50 of these things and n way to leaglly copy them even for internal use so that our instructors can use clips of them in lectures. This is just plain stupid. At least with this that would be a sunset on this whole mess nstead the info on these and the hours of craftmanship that went into them with laguish and die, while some damn fool recreates the same type of stuff over again. Dumb.{/rant}

      --
      Slashdot, where armchair scientists get shouted down and armchair theologians get modded up.
    4. Re:Ok, I'll Clarify by dgatwood · · Score: 1
      And more than that, if no one knows who has the rights to it, then under current law, it technically cannot be republished by anyone, so it cannot make anyone any money, no one has the right to sue, and the work effectively ceases to exist except in the form of archival copies.

      It is precisely for that reason that these works should become public domain. If no one knows who has the rights to them, then no one can make money from them. Now if they want to fight amongst themselves and figure out who holds the rights, they can do so. That's an issue for the courts. However, there should be a time limit far less than the author's life plus 70 years for them to do so. If it really takes them that long to figure out who owns the rights, they're not going to be very valuable by then anyway.

      Besides... it isn't the Copyright office's responsibility to provide notification. It is the right holder's responsibility to keep their information up-to-date. As far as I am concerned, if the information in the copyright office is invalid for more than a year, the copyright should be considered abandoned.

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    5. Re:Ok, I'll Clarify by lukewarmfusion · · Score: 1

      So, the owner of the copyright was a company. That was bought by another company, without selling the rights. That company was bought by another company, still without selling the rights.

      You have copies, and you want to move the stuff to another medium.

      1. Get a lawyer to help you track down the copyright holder. He'll probably determine that the now parent company is the legal owner.

      2. If you have the technology, simply move it to DVD. I don't know enough about laser discs, but if it's possible then you have the right to do so.

    6. Re:Ok, I'll Clarify by iainl · · Score: 1

      I don't know if the Grandparent poster had one of the few data laserdiscs (the most famous by far being the Domesday Project disc for the BBC from the 80s), but if it is just plain-ol' laserdisc video, then it will record to VHS/PVR/DVD/whatever without any real technical headaches or even DMCA quibbles, as laserdisc employed no form of encryption, not even Macrovision.

      I've backed up a Certain Sci-Fi Trilogy myself, because the copyright holder chooses not to release them any more in their original form, if you know what I mean.

      And no - since someone always asks for it when I mention this fact, I'm not going to illegally distribute a copy to anyone.

      --
      "I Know You Are But What Am I?"
  24. Actually, it does by Sycraft-fu · · Score: 4, Insightful

    According to the constution. The reason why we have copyright is Article 1, Section 8, Paragraph 8 of the constution. It says that congress shall have the power "To promote the progress of science and useful arts, by securing for limited times to authors and inventors the exclusive right to their respective writings and discoveries". To that end we got copyrights and patents.

    Notice, however, that it is quite clear about the reasoning. It is to promote progress, in other words, to make sure the work is distributed. Also notice it is clear about the limited times, in that the author can only have control for a while, then it belogns to everyone.

    So it's clear that it is unconstutional to use copright to try and maintain control forever and not share with anyone.

    1. Re:Actually, it does by Vintermann · · Score: 1

      The problem with your reasoning is that you interpret something as a restriction which is a permission. The US constitution say that the government may use copyrights to further the progress of science and useful arts. But it doesn't say that they can't use it simply to further their own wealth, or hamper international cooperation, or whatever. They are not forbidden from anything, just explicitly permitted a certain use.
      This article of the constitution was poorly formulated. I suspect the authors intended it to say what you think it says, but it's not what it says, unfortunately.
      On the other hand, there is plenty legal examples of people trying to turn a permission into a restiction, and I believe they have occasionally succeeded. You may remember that our very own Darl McBride tried this one with the "gpl is unconstitutional" argument. He basically said that since you are forced to give people a (very limited) right to make copies, you aren't allowed to give them any more rights.

      --
      xkcd is not in the sudoers file. This incident will be reported.
    2. Re:Actually, it does by Yartrebo · · Score: 1

      The 10th amendment of the constitution says that anything not permitted to the government is reserved for the states or the people.

  25. Parent is Also Insightful. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    think about it.

  26. *How* by TubeSteak · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The whole problem is that they cannot locate authors in order to get permission. The only way they could solve this is by.... having everyone register their work with Kahle & Co. But wait! thats exactly what the government used to do!! You see the conundrum?

    --
    [Fuck Beta]
    o0t!
  27. Watch the clock! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    When he is not on the clock he is free to practice his religion however he wants.
    He isn't on a clock, but he does take certain actions as John Ashcroft, private citizen, and others as John Ashcroft, Attorney General of the United States of America. Which do you think has the ability to convene the attorney general's staff?
  28. Yet again: Where in the world is Joseph Gradecki? by cr0sh · · Score: 4, Informative
    Have you ever tried tracking down an author or a publisher to obtain reprint rights? I have - and I have yet to be successful. I have been more successful in weeding out information from manufacturers of proprietary hardware (for hacking/mod purposes) than I have with finding authors/publishers.

    My best example:

    I have all of the back issues of PCVR magazine (a magazine put out from 1992-1994 relating to homebrew VR using the PC). I would like to republish and give away CDs or downloads of the articles, but to do so I either need to get each author's permission (then likely reset/retype/reformat the article), or contact the publisher. Both of these options have turned out to be dead ends:

    First off, getting permission from each of the authors is nearly impossible: most authors didn't list contact information, the few that did either list compuserve or old AOL addresses, neither of which work anymore. The few that do list real email addresses, those addresses likely don't work either (its been 10+ years after all). To make matters worse, some of the articles were written by the publisher/editor himself!

    To understand, the publisher/editor of the magazine started it literally in his home (likely in the kitchen or garage!) - the first few issues are photocopied and stapled. It was a real shoestring publication - more of a 'zine for VR than anything else. A great lot of the information presented in its pages has been lost to the community at large, which is a shame because it seems like every article about 3D this or that here on Slashdot, there are posts asking about how to buy or build an HMD for this FPS or whatnot, or other esoteric 3D hardware - and I would love to be able to point these people to the methods and devices already utilised, so that people don't need to reinvent the wheel (and hitting the same stumbling blocks that were already overcome). This is the information that I want to save.

    However, I have been unable to contact the publisher: Joseph D. Gradecki. I won't go into any detail as to what I have done to try to locate him in the past (I have already posted that kind of information in long past articles). Let it suffice to say that he seems to have dropped off the face of the planet, or at least the internet. None of his last know address or phone number information checks out. His last publishers (he wrote a couple of more recent books in the late 90's) have no idea where he is (or if they do, they are not giving me any help, which is possible or likely). I don't have the money to hire a PI or anything.

    This is one case where having up-to-date information about where the publisher or author was would help. Furthermore, if there was a small burden to keep the copyright up (like a small fee to be paid, as suggested), I have no doubt that most or all of the authors of these articles would have let them lapse into public-domain long ago...

    --
    Reason is the Path to God - Anon
  29. The fix is a copyright escrow system. by raygundan · · Score: 1

    I had this discussion with a friend once, and I think it's a valid point, even if I personally hate the idea of owners hoarding their works away.

    There is a viable solution for both sides, though-- escrow for copyrighted works. Set a minimum copyright period (10-20 years) during which works are copyrighted just by creating them, as they are now. To keep your copyright beyond that, you must give the Library of Congress an unencrypted digital, or highest-resolution-possible analog copy of your work, to be held in escrow until the end of your full copyright term. At that point, even if you HAVE hoarded your work away for the entire 150 years or so of your copyright, the work still exists for posterity.

    Everybody wins. Cranky or embarassed authors can hide their works away until some time after their death, and normal folks don't lose things to obscurity.

    Of course, I still think copyright is waaaaay to long, but this is one of those issues where there is a solution we could implement now, without getting into the deeper issues.

    1. Re:The fix is a copyright escrow system. by dissy · · Score: 1

      > escrow for copyrighted works

      Just wanted to reply with a tidbit you may be interested in.

      This was actually law before copyright was issued without having to file for it.
      That is where the Library of Congress obtained the majority of their works.

      From their FAQ page, section 5 talks about the copyright deposits, which unfortunatly are made alot less now, as one doesnt have to file for copyright with a copy of their work.

  30. This would affect Open Source as well by Prototerm · · Score: 3, Insightful
    The underpinnings of the GPL is copyright law. If that law now required contributors to go through the "copyright formalities" for them to get copyright protection under the law, then wouldn't this result in the contributed code ending up in the public domain, since a lot of people wouldn't have the time or the money to go through the process?

    I can just see the legal tangle such a change would cause for Linux, et al. I also question how well such a change would work with the Berne Convention, since we're not talking about a novel here, written in one country, but a product written by hundreds of contributors from around the planet, both US and elsewhere. IANAL, but this looks like it would be a real mess, with no one winning but the lawyers.

    --
    "My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right." --Senator Carl Schurz (1872)
    1. Re:This would affect Open Source as well by LionMage · · Score: 1
      The underpinnings of the GPL is copyright law. If that law now required contributors to go through the "copyright formalities" for them to get copyright protection under the law, then wouldn't this result in the contributed code ending up in the public domain, since a lot of people wouldn't have the time or the money to go through the process?

      Anyone who didn't actively renew their copyright registration for a work would have that work end up in the Public Domain, which is how copyright law worked until the 1970's.

      Having said that, it's not that expensive to register your work for copyright protections. And renewal isn't expensive either. The paperwork is relatively trivial. If you can't be bothered filing a single form and an example of your work with the copyright office, is the work really worth copyrighting? If you can take the time to write a piece of code, you can take the time to mail a copy of your code (along with the necessary form(s)) to the copyright office; similarly, how hard is it to mail a check and a simple form off to the copyright office for the renewal of a work? Consider that this was the law until the 1970's, and required of all software developers. Consider also that most companies that produce software still register with their country's copyright authority because doing so provides a clear record of ownership and makes winning court cases easier.

      Also, I might point out that the majority of Linux code is copyrighted in other countries, and Berne specifically prohibits member states from imposing copyright formalities on the works copyrighted in other member states. So only code with copyright holders here in the United States would be affected by this case (or the proposed remedies, should the plaintiff win).

      I might also point out that copyright renewal, prior to 1996, was only required after the first 24 years of the work's life. If any code remains in the Linux code base for that length of time, it probably deserves to slip into the public domain.

      I can just see the legal tangle such a change would cause for Linux, et al. I also question how well such a change would work with the Berne Convention, since we're not talking about a novel here, written in one country, but a product written by hundreds of contributors from around the planet, both US and elsewhere.

      See my above comments regarding Berne. In the case of the Linux kernel, individual contributors hold the copyrights to the modules/source files. Only those source files contributed by people residing in the U.S. would be affected by this case.

      An easy way to streamline the administration of such a "mess" would be for the individual authors who don't want to be bothered maintaining their own copyrights to assign their copyrights to an authority, such as the FSF. That way, some centralized authority takes care of the ugly paperwork (which isn't all that ugly, honestly) and frees up those authors who don't care or don't wish to deal with it.

      By the way, all of your questions could have been answered by following the links in the article and reading the information, including the FAQs surrounding this case. How you got modded "Insightful" is beyond me.
    2. Re:This would affect Open Source as well by Wolfier · · Score: 1

      > The paperwork is relatively trivial.

      Until they take the "paper" out of paperwork, it would not be trivial. The "paperwork" needs to be *completely electronic* AND *completely free of charge* before it is acceptable.

      Kahle should NOT be supported. The protection of GPL work is reason enough.

    3. Re:This would affect Open Source as well by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why? Isn't 28 years of copyright protection without registration enough for you? What GPL code do you envision being so important that it would matter if a 28-year old version was appropriated for commercial use?

    4. Re:This would affect Open Source as well by Wolfier · · Score: 1

      RTFA before blathering. Kahle seeks to force registration for copyright protection.

    5. Re:This would affect Open Source as well by LionMage · · Score: 1
      Kahle should NOT be supported. The protection of GPL work is reason enough.

      No, it's not reason enough. Protecting GPL work is important, but remedying some of the problems with current copyright law (including the gray area that orphaned works fall into) is more important. And since Kahle couldn't win by challenging the copyright term extension (Sonny Bono Act), this is the only avenue left.

      Stop being so FSF/GNU-centric in your thinking. There's actually a lot of stuff out in the world that's more important (gasp!) than Free Software. Software is important, but our cultural heritage and the preservation of the original intent of the Constitution (in regards to patent and copyright legislation) are much more important.

      As for your aversion to paperwork... duly noted. But making the process free of charge is ridiculous on its face. There's no such thing as free -- either the party seeking copyright protection pays a small fee (last I checked, approximately $20, well below the cost of electricity required to operate computer equipment for the length of time necessary to develop a non-trivial piece of software worth copyright protection), or the taxpayers pay for the clerical costs.

      Besides, forcing a payment for renewal (even a nominal fee of $1) will weed out those copyright holders who have no interest in maintaining copyright protection for a given work. Likewise, in cases where copyright was originally assigned to a company which no longer exists, or where copyright was assigned to someone who is now deceased and whose estate is unaware that they hold the copyright (or doesn't care that they hold it), a nominal renewal fee and procedure will insure that such works fall into the public domain that much faster, thereby enriching everyone and thus serving the public interest.
    6. Re:This would affect Open Source as well by Wolfier · · Score: 1

      >But making the process free of charge is
      >ridiculous on its face. There's no such thing
      >as free -- either the party seeking copyright
      >protection pays a small fee (last I checked,
      >approximately $20, well below the cost of
      >electricity required to operate computer
      >equipment for the length of time necessary to
      >develop a non-trivial piece of software worth
      >copyright protection), or the taxpayers pay for
      >the clerical costs.

      If it means taxpayer money, so be it. The public gets more public domains in return in the long run.

      It is the annoyance, that needs to be addressed. People who forget to copyright their work should still get the protection if it is their intention. Because people should not get punished or discriminated because of being a bit forgetful.

      My opinion is, sure, there are problems to be addressed. But abandoning the practice of giving a default copyright is not the solution.

      It all boils down to, when you create something, does it defaults to being a public domain or your private property?

      I firmly believe that personal instead of public gain is the driving force of most creations (you may believe differently), therefore, a newly created work should default to being "copyrighted" instead of "public domain".

      A good alternative is a default automatic copyright for a relatively short time, let's say 5 years, and then it has to be renewed to obtain full protection, the 75+ year thingie.

  31. Mickey Mouse by burdicda · · Score: 1

    So this indefinite copyright law wasn't to protect
    Mickey Mouse from Taiwan ?????

  32. Just curious by jsebrech · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I'm wondering about something:

    Can anyone but the owner of a copyright sue you for copyright infringement? The reason I ask is because I'm thinking about this concept of saving abandoned art. If no one is left alive who provably owns a work, then who is going to sue you if you copy it? If nobody can be found who has legal standing, even if copying would be illegal, wouldn't it be not much of a legal risk to go ahead and copy the work?

    1. Re:Just curious by SdnSeraphim · · Score: 1

      This is just a guess, but I believe that a copyright is inhertied by the creator's estate. This is how the copyright is still in force after the creator's death.

      --
      It is dangerous to be right on a subject on which the established authorities are wrong. - Voltaire
    2. Re:Just curious by esnible · · Score: 1
      Only an injured party can sue you. However, copyright violation is a supercrime, $150,000 per infringement.

      See Ebooks: Neither E, Nor Books.

      I'd like to reprint a 1932 work by a priest. He died leaving no heirs. To find the owner, I'd need his will, the agreement he signed with his publisher, etc. This stuff was all lost around WWII.

      I own a $500 parcel of Arizona desert. Every year I must pay $13 to the state for taxes, which pays so the government can remember who owns the land.

      I find it troubling that intellectual property "needs" automatic free 90 year registration, but real property needs yearly tax payments.

    3. Re:Just curious by tilrman · · Score: 1

      The parent post inspired this idea for a compromise: If you register your copyright and somebody infringes upon it, you can sue them for damages, just like the current system. However, if you don't register, then you must send a Cease and Desist letter (and give ample time for the infringer to take it down) before you can sue.

      I don't actually like this idea (not without some refinement), but it would solve the abandonware problem. If the owner of the copyright can't be found in the registry, then you can copy and preserve the work without risking any more than the expense of doing the copying.

    4. Re:Just curious by Sinterklaas · · Score: 1

      The problem with this idea is that the rug may be pulled out from under you. Say you spend $$$ to restore an old movie and press thousands of DVDs. After the C&D, you have to destroy those DVDs and you don't get compensated for your hard work. Or what if you want to sample an old song? If the artists complains, you may have to destroy all CDs. How are _you_ going to get compensated for all the work involved in creating the new song? So your idea doesn't really help those who want to do more than make a simple copy.

      I think we need a registration every X years. You get 5 or 10 years for free and after that you have to register and pay a small fee for an extension. You can keep on extending until the maximum copyright term.

  33. Did you read the COA Ruling?? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    The COA declared that you can't copyright the law and that it does diserve the public to have copyrights attached.

    " Third, to enhance the market value of its model codes, SBCCI could easily publish them as do the compilers of statutes and judicial opinions, with "value-added" in the form of commentary, questions and answers, lists of adopting jurisdictions and other information valuable to a reader. The organization could also charge fees for the massive amount of interpretive information about the codes that it doles out. In short, we are unpersuaded that the removal of copyright protection from model codes only when and to the extent they are enacted into law disserves "the Progress of Science and useful Arts." U.S. Const. art. I. 8, cl. 8.

    Conclusion

    For the reasons discussed above, we REVERSE the district court's judgment against Peter Veeck, and REMAND with instructions to dismiss SBCCI's claims."

    Veeck vs SBCCI was ruled opsite of what you claim. Laws can not be copyright. What the Supreme Court did was agree with the COA and not here SBCCI on apeal.

  34. Brewster is not a Librarian!!!!!!!!!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Brewster is not a librarian!!!!!!

    He will even talk shit about librarians, with librarians in the room!

  35. Software is a special case by brucmack · · Score: 2, Interesting

    This problem really arises because of the inherent differences between software and other works, like books for example.

    When an author writes a book, it probably takes a significant amount of time, goes through an editorial process, and in the end is copyrighted as a completed work. There might be minor corrections later on, but the work is basically finished.

    Software, on the other hand, evolves over time. The first version of something probably doesn't take that long to make, depending on the project. A single contribution to an open source project could be quite small. And it's likely to change sometime down the road.

    The two things are just so different that having them governed by the same system is just silly, IMHO.

  36. Copyright is not a constitutional right by j0nb0y · · Score: 1

    Copyright has never been a constitutional right. Copyright is not a constitutional right. Hopefully, copyright will never be a constitutional right.

    --
    If you had super powers, would you use them for good, or for awesome?
  37. Please MOD DOWN my previous post by frankie · · Score: 2, Informative
    Hooray, score one for the good guys. I am so damn happy that I was wrong about the Veeck case.

    I spent HOURS googling about Veeck a couple weeks ago, and somehow picked bad keywords every time. All of the search results referred to the original case, the three-judge appeal, and/or the certiorari, but never the full court ruling. Damn page rot.

    Thank you for the correction. It's a fucking wonderful ray of sunshine.
  38. Why sue Ashcroft? by ahdeoz · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    It won't affect any laws. If you want the federal government to change a law, you sue the United States. It's always been that way. This ashcroft crap is just stupid media propoganda. Why don't they say "Dickless vs. Christianity" unless they have another reason to hate Ashcroft than his religious beliefs.

    1. Re:Why sue Ashcroft? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because he is the attorney general of the United States. That is usually the person who gets sued as a proxy for the US. In the Clinton administration, Janet Reno was named as the defendant for similar suits.

    2. Re:Why sue Ashcroft? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Read, damnit. It's only named "v. Ashcroft" because they are suing the DOJ--and Ashcroft is the head of the DOJ.

      Additionally, if you ever bothered to read any supreme court cases, many cases are titled "v. public official". Examples just in citizenship cases that I can name off the top of my head: Vance v. Terrazas, Cabell v. Chavez-Salido, etc.

      Do some work before posting your drivel.

  39. What's next? by fadunk · · Score: 1

    We've got length, breadth...

    Inquiring minds want to know...what's the girth?

  40. What about a compromise? by tx_kanuck · · Score: 4, Interesting

    What if there was a compromise between the two systems? For example, as an author, I automatically got 5 or 10 years of automatic copyright protection of a work upon creation. This gives me time to create something and then decide if it is going to be profitable enough to continue copyrighting. At the end of the grace period, if I want to keep the item copyrighted, I have to register it for a fee with the government. This copyright then lasts for whatever the government says (currently set at 50+ life of the author).

    Hell, though this system you could even set different fees for different lengths of copyright (up to a max # of years). You have a piece of software? Set it's copyright for 25 years and save yourself 1/2 the fee. If it is still profitable at the end of the term, you can extend the copyright to the remainder of the term for the remainder of the fee. Granted, the fee may have gone up by then. You have a comicbook character that might be profitable the whole time? Copyright the whole time and pay the full fee.

    But if the author does not think the work is worth taking the time to do a few hours of research over a period of 5 or 10 years, the work becomes public domain. And don't tell me that 10 hours of research, plus 1 hour to fill out forms for each piece of work is excessive. This is spread over a few years after all. How many people are going to create nothing but profitable works?

    Just my 2 cents.

    --
    Now, if that makes sense to anyone, could you please explain it to me? I think I've confused myself.
    1. Re:What about a compromise? by Kwil · · Score: 1

      Hey.. what a great idea.. too bad somebody didn't think of this before..

      Oh wait.. they did

      --

      That Jesus Christ guy is getting some terrible lag... it took him 3 days to respawn! -NJ CoolBreeze

  41. Volume of cases by FuzzyDaddy · · Score: 1
    Question number 3 of the FAQ explains that while the Eldred case challenged the length of copyright expansion, this case challenges the breadth.

    And next week I'm filing a suit to challenge the height of copyright expansion!

    --
    It's not wasting time, I'm educating myself.
  42. Hrm. by Yobgod+Ababua · · Score: 2, Insightful

    You seem to have a few misconceptions.

    "If they want to use my work, then I can grant them the rights to use it."

    Only if they can find out that you are the copyright holder and if they can also find out how to contact you.

    The problem that this is trying to address is the thousands of works that currently cannot legally be archived or utilized due to the near-prohibitive cost of trying to research who (if anyone) is the proper person to contact.

    "If I am required to register my copyright, then I lose some of the ability to protect it."

    I don't see how this sentence makes any sense at all. If you are required to register your copyright, or to include some useful copyright notice with the original, it merely gives would be (re)users a standard way to determine that you are the copyright holder they need to talk to. You don't lose anything...

  43. Re:Naked Statues by The+Angry+Mick · · Score: 1

    If he were a member of the Islam religion and had had similar objections to nakedness, would you take fault with him then?
    It's CEMENT, for fsck's sake!
    --

    I'm not tense. I'm just terribly, terribly, alert.

  44. Re:Yet again: Where in the world is Joseph Gradeck by cr0sh · · Score: 1
    Did some searching - found some more information, delved into a bunch of online public records databases. Have yet to find a reliable address or phone number, but I did find his personal website, which didn't exist before (last time I did any searches), so this is a good find. However, following links, etc - it seems like the site may be dead - I am hoping WHOIS will tell me something.

    Hmm - looked up "gradecki.com" on google, led me here:

    Cummings and Associates

    They look like a used parts/computer ebay seller. The site haad an ebay comment from Mr. Gradecki - apparently his ebay ID is cscientist (email of "joe@gradecki.com") - here's hoping my email to him gets answered.

    His site, BTW, holds links to PDFs of the magazine - but the links go nowhere. I am hoping to find out more about this from him.

    Looks like today I may have gotten closer...

    --
    Reason is the Path to God - Anon
  45. not radical at all by hak1du · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Going back to the old "no copyright until you register" system is something else, and pretty radical.

    With copyright, you get a government-guaranteed monopoly, backed and enforced by police and courts, paid for by tax payers, lasting decades. It seems entirely reasonable to ask you to at least affirmatively assert your copyright.

    (Note that GPL stuff very definitely uses copyright as its base. Do you want to have to register every little release to have a valid GPL on it?)

    Yes, of course--why wouldn't I? This could be handled completely automatically, with a nominal, tiny fee. Furthermore, it doesn't have to be every tiny release; even with registration requirements, you get a significant period of time to register. So, GPL'ed software could be registered once per year.

  46. Good news... by cr0sh · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Joe replied to me after I emailed him at the above address. He told me that he is wanting to republish PCVR, which is why he has the links up, but that he hasn't had time to convert them over to PDF. I sent an email with my interest, and I am hoping he will respond in kind, maybe I can help him get the project rolling, or something. I will post back here on what happens in the next few days...

    --
    Reason is the Path to God - Anon
    1. Re:Good news... by cr0sh · · Score: 1
      I got an email last night from him saying it was OK for me to scan and post the magazines. I plan on discussing it further with him, though. It isn't that I don't trust him, it is just that in our crazy world with weird IP issues ATM - well, I think I want to get a signed statement from him mailed to me before I actually do it.

      Does anybody out there (still reading this, that is) think this is a good idea, or should I just go ahead and scan?

      Regardless - this has turned out to be a *great* thing, I think (here's hoping that homebrew VR can make a comeback)...

      --
      Reason is the Path to God - Anon
  47. Treaties: Constitutionality Loophole? by Rufus88 · · Score: 1

    Ok, so you're saying law implementing a treaty can't be declared unconstitutional, because a treaty is on equal footing with the constitution? So if, say, the Republicans wanted to get around Roe v. Wade, Bush could sign a treaty with John Paul II jointly agreeing not to allow abortions in their respective countries?

    Hmm. Article III, section 2, clause 1 seems to suggest that SCOTUS can declare a treaty unconstitutional. But IANAL.

  48. Campaign Finance Reform by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    The current Supreme Court has shown itself to be quite unwilling to smack down Congress if the end result is "inconvenient".

    They upheld the Campaign Finance Reform Act, even as it muzzles the First Amendment for (30|60) days before a (primary|general) election.

  49. YES! And SCO too! by Ungrounded+Lightning · · Score: 1

    (Note that GPL stuff very definitely uses copyright as its base. Do you want to have to register every little release to have a valid GPL on it?)

    YES! And SCO too!

    One of the problems with GPL - and most of the other open licenses: The new law makes works "born copyrighted", even absent any labeling of WHO owns the copyright. This often makes it impossible to determine what person, or set of people collectively, have the authority to grant a license under any other terms.

    It also makes it impossible to determine when the author dies, and thus when the copyright expires and the work passes into the public domain. (Given life-extension technology improvements, some of us might actually still be around then. But even if not, our great**n grandchildren shouldn't be penalized.)

    Registration would require declaration of who is claiming the copyright, and what previous copyrights he's acknowledging. That gives you a starting point on figuring out who to ask (or offer some bux to).

    And having a record in the Library of Congress on who the actual authors are would also make things like the SCO suit a tad easier to settle. B-)

    As for registration of every release, what's the big deal? Burn a CD of the CVS repository, another of the distribution files, maybe another of a mirror of the project website, generate a hardcopy cover letter, and drop 'em in the mail, return-reciept requested. (Should be an open-source tool to generate the cover letter and filled-out versions of any forms within a month after they're defined, eh? Assuming the LoC doesn't just provide an inbound FTP site).

    Absent a prohibitive fee, what's so hard about it?

    --
    Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
  50. A couple deltas. by Ungrounded+Lightning · · Score: 1

    You do not get protection for the ideas in the work, which can be freely used by anyone in their own programs, so long as they don't copy your code verbatim.

    That's the basic idea. There are slight exceptions in two directions:

    1) Fair use includes using VERY SMALL amounts verbatim. If you've got a three-line hack that's really cute buried in there, it might be fair use to clone it - especially if it's being cloned into something other than a program to do the same job. (How much is fair use depends mainly on how much the cloning impacts the value of your work. Thus much more could be used in an article about it than in an unrelated computer program, and still less in a competing product.)

    2) "Derived works" don't have to be exact copies. If somebody changes all the variable names, or translated it from C++ to Java (or English to German), it's still an infringement.

    --
    Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
  51. doesn't seem to make sense by geekoid · · Score: 1

    If I author something, it is immediatly my copyright. As such, I can let people use my works at no charge, just recognition.
    Also, who determines what a 'small' fee is to copyright something?
    What about that person who barly knows where there next meal is coming from, but happens to be a great writer?
    If you had to pay to have works copyrighted(as opposed to registered) would there be any Harry Potter books?(the author has no money and was on a subsitance program of some sort.)

    Now, I am a big believer that Author should retain all rights for a reasonable period of years, say 14, but I don't think they should have to pay for it.

    Plus this lets in a lot of abuse.
    If I have someone proof read my works, but haen't paid the fee to be copyright, can the proof reader pay and then retain rights to the book?

    --
    The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
  52. Heirs' responsibility to fund exploiting estate by tepples · · Score: 1

    It hardly seems right that heirs should be required to find, evaluate, and quickly pay to extend the copyright.

    How? If heirs want to exploit an estate for financial gain, I would place the responsibility on the heirs to take care of the costs of exploiting the estate. I do not see whence your position comes; would you please explain it further?

  53. It's free advertising by tepples · · Score: 1

    When the government taxes copyright, what service is it providing? Writing a law into a book?

    The point is that society would benefit from a side effect of a a tax on copyrights: Tax collection leaves a paper trail, and this paper trail would make it easier for potential users of rights in copyrighted works to contact the author in order to begin negotiation. The author benefits as well by having a government-sponsored means of advertising what she may be willing to license.

    1. Re:It's free advertising by spood · · Score: 1

      That's an interesting point. But why would we need a tax to accomplish this? If an author is interested in being contacted to allow negotiation for limited-use rights to his work, he will find some way to make it happen. More likely, he will already be actively pursuing a publisher in order to attempt to profit from his own ideas. If not, that's why a the copyright term limit must exist. In the worst case, if an author cannot be found (or does not want to be found), one can simply wait until the work enters the public domain. Forced registration simply allows an author to be harassed even when he does not wish to be found.

      I would support an argument for a national copyright registry, which would be paid for by those registering copyrights. Presumably, one would only register one's ideas if one was expecting to be contacted for use of those ideas, and by extension to eventually profit from them. However, this is separate from an unlimited copyright provision. Even if one does not wish to register, one's copyright should still be guaranteed.

      In the case where an author publishes an idea, but does not wish to be found, I would argue that that author does not plan to profit from his own ideas. I agree that there should be provisions for an author to release his work with the restrictions that it may be reused, but not for the purposes of profit. I can't envision any other reason why an author would publish under copyright if he does not intend to profit or simply prevent someone else from profiting.

      --
      ---- Just another spud server.
  54. Probably a stupid question, but... by rpj1288 · · Score: 1

    What does John Ashcroft have to do with Copyright? Or is this a totally different person?

    --
    Marvin knew: "Think of a number, any number..."
    1. Re:Probably a stupid question, but... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      All evilness in the US, including draconian copyright extensions, is officially under the direct purview of John Ashcroft.

      Seriously, it's traditional that in lawsuits challenging laws enacted by the Congress, the Attorney General is named as the defendant, and the Department of Justice handles the defence.

    2. Re:Probably a stupid question, but... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you are filing a lawsuit, you file it against the person responsible. The Attorney General is the defendant in suits where someone decides to preemptively challenge a law that they feel is unconstitutional and will harm them in some way, since he's the guy in charge of enforcing the laws. It's not like Johnny has gone off and done something evil (again), and we're holding him personally responsible. As mentioned earlier, the case mentioned earlier started out as Eldred v. Reno, and when the AG changed, the defendant changed.

  55. Congress would have overridden Dole's veto by tepples · · Score: 1

    Let's not forget that the last "Democratic" president sold us down the river by signing the DMCA (Digital Millenium Copyright Act) and CTEA (Copyright Term Extension Act) into law. His name is Bill Clinton.

    Even if former Sen. Bob Dole had been in office and had rejected the Bono Act and the DMCA, it wouldn't have helped one bit. Both bills were passed by voice vote in both houses. It takes 80 percent assent to get a voice vote through (20 percent dissent forces a roll call). It takes only 67 percent assent to override a presidential veto.

    Appointments to the court are for life.

    Supreme Court justices "hold their offices during good behavior." I can imagine all sorts of ways to try to bag justices on that. Would a felony conviction constitute no longer "during good behavior"?

    Rather they will get shot down because most judge's eyes "glass over" when you mention copyright to them

    Prof. Lessig learned from his mistakes and seems to have begun work on a plan to prevent justices' eyes from glazing over as they did in Eldred.

    1. Re:Congress would have overridden Dole's veto by Xenographic · · Score: 1

      Be careful about taking that "during good behavior" bit too far. I just read some rant on the internet (no doubt about that bill to remove the power of judicial review from the courts) wherein they thought that they could somehow use that clause to say that by exercising judicial review, they were violating their oath of office.

      That said, I believe it normally only applies to specific criminal violations (e.g. yeah, they would have to commit a felony or something).

      I wish I could remember better what I learned in my class on the supreme court, but it's been a few years, even though I remember that we addressed the meaning of that specifically (in fact, we went over the entire article of the constitution relating to the judiciary...)

  56. You're Such a Fraud! by raehl · · Score: 1

    If you really had the tools necessary to achieve world domination, you certainly wouldn't need to be in the business of selling the tools for world domination now, would you?

  57. not so much by Scudsucker · · Score: 1

    I'm not sure about American stations, but the BBC had a policy of throwing away "old" film to free up space, before Star Trek taught TV companies about the wonder of merchandising. So many episodes for Doctor Who, the longest running sci-fi television series, are permenently lost.

    1. Re:not so much by coyotedata · · Score: 1

      But the Brits have a standing policy of throwing things away: India, Austrlia, South Africa, Canada-just to name a few.

  58. Synopsis of the issue by Rogerborg · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Copyright is now automatic and mandatory. You, as the creator of a work, cannot voluntarily put it into the public domain. All that you can do is to license it with the most open and explicit license that you can think of. See Slashdot's Terms and Conditions for an example of a licensing scheme that you've agreed to, whether you know it or not. Saying "this work is in the public domain" is not sufficient, as "public domain" has no meaning in law except for works for which copyright has expired.

    If you think this isn't an issue, consider what happens if you unrestrictively license a body of work, and then step in front of a bus. The copyrights pass to your estate, and for the sake of argument, we'll say that's an Evil Nephew. Now, how sure are you that your license is "irrevocable and in perpetuity"? Are you absolutely sure that it's water-tight? Can the Evil Nephew revoke the license? Can he prevent people who currently have copies from making futher copies and passing them on?

    It gets even worse where the intent and licensing is unclear. If a work doesn't bear a copyright claim, a clear license, or other identifying information, how do you even know whether you're allowed to copy it? The creator, or his Evil Nephew, could turn up any day and sue you for reproducing their work. It's safer not to duplicate and distribute at all, and that is very much not what copyright law was intended to do. It was intended to encourage dissemination of work. Implicit mandatory copyrights creates a culture that strangles the public domain.

    The core of Kahle vs Ashcroft is that copyrights should be something that you actively choose to claim. If you don't, for example, care what happens to your Slashdot postings, just don't put "(C) 2003 $YOUR_NAME" on them. It's pretty much as simple as that.

    --
    If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
  59. its an important difference by TubeSteak · · Score: 1

    between actual damages + profits & statuatory damages + attorney's fees. The reason is that statuatory damages (when infringement is willfull) can be kicked up to $150,000. Which also happens to be the magic RIAA figure that they're seeking for every traded song. And again, registering your copyright doesn't 'protect' actual damages and profits. Those are your already if you can show that the work belongs to you.

    Wouldn't you rather have $150,000 + attorney's fees instead of damages and profits on something that may not have been worth much in the first place?

    --
    [Fuck Beta]
    o0t!
  60. Lovely! by sudog · · Score: 1

    So, the plaintiffs are asking for:

    1. U.S. authors to be under a harsher method of obtaining real copyright than foreigners (who would see copyright in the U.S. automatically via the Berne convention.)

    2. Most currently-protected works to fall into the public domain.

    Whoah. Good luck with that one, guys.

  61. That's what Creative Commons *-nc is for by tepples · · Score: 1

    If an author is interested in being contacted to allow negotiation for limited-use rights to his work, he will find some way to make it happen.

    The problem here is that a copyright exists but no member of the general public knows who owns it.

    In the worst case, if an author cannot be found (or does not want to be found), one can simply wait until the work enters the public domain.

    The problem is that in Soviet America, copyright outlives YOU! This is a compromise. If the entertainment industry objects to short copyright terms for works whose author's identity is well-known, why not reduce copyright terms for works whose author's identity is not well-known?

    Forced registration simply allows an author to be harassed even when he does not wish to be found.

    If an author doesn't want to be harassed, why did the author even publish the work in the first place? If an author has published a work and no longer wants to be harassed, why not transfer the copyright to somebody else? If an author doesn't want to derive income from licensing a work, why doesn't the author release the work into the public domain, under a permissive license, or even just under a Creative Commons *-nc license?

    I agree that there should be provisions for an author to release his work with the restrictions that it may be reused, but not for the purposes of profit.

    That's called "donating the copyright to a charity." Then the charity could take care of maintaining the copyright under something analogous to a Creative Commons *-nc license.

  62. DEAD FOR DIRTY JEW by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    OUR DEAD IN PARADISE THERE DEAD IN THE HELL

    with this barbarous attitude on the part of a group of terrorist, expressed the animal
    savage that you are . Yes you have killed the leader of Hamas ,Ahmed yassin, it is shameful .
    But what you has escaped , it's all the people Palestine is Ahmed yassin , and this act despised you are going to pay it Mr of terrorist , and days that comes, go you it confirms.
    The countdown has begun for the end of is telling a " state of grand Israel"
    but it is scandalous killed an old man and paraplegic , and with what !!!! MISSILES ,
    this man so much make you fear !!! on its moving chair, and then what to tell for these
    that are on their two legs .Sharon is a terrorist and an assassin of 1st order.
    It has to be beheaded with these general terrorists and their head have to be posed
    on the returned principal of Jerusalem.
    *********ALKASSAM********