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HomeSec Blacklist to be Available to Private Companies
unassimilatible writes "The Washington Times reports that the FBI and the Department of Homeland Security are developing a database that will allow private companies to submit lists of individuals to be screened for a connection to terrorism. The database will eventually allow private-sector entities, such as operators of critical infrastructure facilities or organizers of large events, to submit a list of persons associated with those events to the U.S. government to be screened for any nexus to terrorism. All of this won't be cheap either; total terror-related IT spending by US federal and state governments will run past $100 billion in 2004. But don't feel left out Europeans, since the EU is considering a terror database as well, although France and UK are reluctant to share intel."
The issue with allowing this is that terrorist organizations, who are generally well funded, may be able to check associates against the list and verify they are not listed. They can also get creative and monitor the list to find the leaks of information, such as when a new person in their organization is introduced to one of their existing associates (the leak), and then the new member suddenly shows up on the list. People don't have to be terrorists when they join organizations either (initial screening), they can choose to go that way after they have joined.
Besides, this list has been around for ages, and has been circulated among financial institutions for years. It's not really anything new, it's just more public now.
The one where you joked about blowing something up, poisoning the town watersupply or leaving a flaming bag of poop on the mayor's doorstep? It was just a youthful indiscretion, which anyone could make after a few beers or a blunt. It wasn't meant to be taken seriously. There were not pipe bombs under your bed or fatigues and a gun in your closet. You'd rather be shooting the shit with friends at the mall than shooting people from the trunk of a parked car. Years pass and you have met that special someone and settled down to a mortgage, a couple auto loans, putting some money away for college funds and that sporty little red "mid-life crisis" Then one day you're called into the Human Resources department. There are a couple serious looking men in suits waiting there to meet you. It seems on a routine check your name came up. You had started or participated in a thread that someone else did. That someone else just blew up a bus in Tel Aviv.
Remember that off-the-cuff troll you fired off on some blog or newsgroup years ago? Someone did.
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
I am not that worried about companies being able to find out who may be a terror threat. I don't think that the government will give them a dossier on whomever they ask for.
What I am worried about is the government collecting and keeping this data. They may just be using this program as a honeypot to get companies to give them data. They get to know your location on a precise time and date. They also may be able to do some basic hypothesising based on this data. For instance, people who are often found at the same events could be grouped together, and rudimentary sosical networks could be strung together. You could end up under investigation if you turn up at too many events that have "terrorist suspects" at them. Maybe even if they started collecting names of those at political rallies, and started adding those to the databases. Maybe the cities will say: You can have your protest, if you supply a list of names of people who will be there. And BAM! You have lost your privacy and freedom to associate.
Namaste
This really scares me. I am confident that such technologies, as soon as they are entrenched, will start being used against anti-corp, anti free-trade groups rather quickly. Once they run out of Arab's with H-1 visas they are going to go after people with subscriptions to ADBUSTERS. What's the criteria for 'connection' or proximity to a "nexus of terrorism"?
Look at it this way: they are going to rate people the same way good spam-filters rate incoming email to determine if they are spam. They'll probably be more right than wrong - but heaven help you if you fall through the cracks. No ability to fly. No ability to attend large gatherings. The ability to literally clip the wings of dissenting voices becomes a heck of lot easier.
Lets look at who gets access:
operators of critical infrastructure facilities - with the right lobbyist this could mean just about any large corporation. Microsoft would certainly qualify. Would about Coke? Ford motor company? Nike? They keep America financially strong - and what's good for Microsoft is good for American by golly!
organizers of large events - such as political conventions? Concerts with bands whose message may contain material not suitable for fundamentalist ears?
-_-
Wow, a little bit of history repeating.
I can't believe something like this could come to existance so soon after the whole McCarthy communism scandal. People will be able to submit lists of people and find out if any of them are Filthy Reds
Woody Allen's The Front just become recommended viewing for the entire nation.
Maybe the cities will say: You can have your protest, if you supply a list of names of people who will be there.
Perhaps, although doing so would be a clear violation of the first amendment's freedom of assembly. I know people will cite the Patriot Act as an example that the government doesn't give a damn about the Constitution. On the other hand, I don't recall any real limitations on freedom of speech (okay, not giving expert advice to terrorists, but the courts struck that part of the Patriot Act down). They've been unwilling so far to touch the first amendment.
They get to know your location on a precise time and date.
Don't forget while you're there to only pay in plain cash. If you use a credit card or a check, then they'll know you were there either. Since this seems to only be used for events, many of the people will probably be buying things with their credit cards. In other words, I don't know that for most people, they'll be getting tracked more than they already are.
Maybe even if they started collecting names of those at political rallies, and started adding those to the databases.
For the most part, I don't see this happening. Both parties have been involved with the Patriot Act and with taking your rights away. Quite frankly, I think they don't want the election system associated with blacklists. It could quite easily backfire, and I'm sure that the opponents of the people in office who passed the Patriot Act would spin it as an attempt to scare voters into voting the incumbent back in.
I am curious to see what they have on file for me.
Nothing.
But they just started one.
KFG
Imagine a similar scenario with your terror file. You neighbour gets pissed off with you and goes and complains about you. She says you have been hanging out with a bearded people. You have made a business trip to Saudi Arabia.
And that's all it takes. Now you are are terrorist on the FBI terror list. You will never get clearance. You will never get a government job other than cleaning public toilets.
If this measure goes through, you will never get clearance to get a job at a private company either.
One mistake, by someone else, and you are out.
Thank god I am not in the land of the free!
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Nothing to see here
When you look to get people that have no "problems" in their past, you are looking for people that haven't really done anything. People who have made mistakes are people who have actually learned something.
that and "keywording" resumes pretty much makes the whole H.R. system crap.
Why don't you embrace your slashbotness instead of living in a dreamworld?
Yes, it looks like the world is becoming a better place every day.
At $100 billion/yr they could easily provide a college education for everyone. But it would be better to give to the money to companies so they can hire more H1-B visa holders since they cannot find enough skilled americans (or so they claim).
No Child left behind simply means everyone is left behind since it is easier hobble the quick than train the slow
I make my face look like this and concerned words come out.
It's nice to know that much of the querying will be done by private organizations, and not just the government. Non-government organizations are so much more trustworthy and reliable. Phew. What a relief.
And if you didn't catch the sarcasm, think of the damage that people can currently cause with our existing system in the form of identity theft. Now immagine a parallel system being used to determine how much of a threat you pose to society. Now when you apply for housing in an appartment, they not only call your references, but check this database to see if they should worry about you bombing the place or something absurd like that. Great.
That's a lot of power, by the way. And claims that it will be accurate and reliable only worsen the situation. People wouldn't take such a database seriously if it contained a lot of mistakes. The only reason why you can correct your credit report at all is because there are so many publicised inaccuracies. But if such a database managed to be some 99.95% accurate, or something like that... boy does it suck to be one of the thousands of people who got got an undeserved "black mark" on your record. No one would ever believe you, it would be completely impossible for you to correct it--not because you can't prove you're innocent, but because there's no one you can go to to get it fixed. Everyone believes the database because it's always right. You get turned down for loans, housing, jobs, and can't even travel. Such a database may even wind up admissable in court.
Now immagine the position of those who can anonymously input information into that database (and there will be many). That's too much power, with no accountability. A recipe for a silent disaster. Of course, you'll never hear about it, that's the nature of the thing. The only ones who will know are the abusers and the victims. Wow.
"With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine. However, this is not necessarily a good idea...."
RFC 1925
supposed to be funny, but I worry about this exact problem.
Organizations don't always get along like happy families. I can easily see people getting put on a list because they pissed someone off or they rub someone the wrong way. Anyone that has a huge ego (including CEOs) might use it as a way to get people on their own personal enemy list in trouble.
Why don't you embrace your slashbotness instead of living in a dreamworld?
Realize the truth in your jest -- there's about a fifty fifty chance, guessing from news about leaks this year alone, that the newly aggregated data
a) will be compromised and fall into enemy hands due to bad IT security practices, or,
b) sold or lent to third parties or government contractors
c) used for purposes other than originally intended
or d) all of the above
Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
Cities already require their advance approval of any demonstration. They have their own criteria what can be allowed and what cannot. I don't see anything in the 1st amendment that can keep them from requiring organizers and attendants lists to check against terrorist databases to the list of their criteria.
Nothing of the sort is happening. In fact, Bush and Ashcroft are proud of having passed the US PATRIOT Act and regard it as a plus in their fight against terrorism. Needless to say, most people are blind to principles and could care less if the government is able to listen into their telephone conversations with their friends without a warrant, or tap into their OnStar or a similar device to track them or listen to their in-car conversations. Or detain suspects for extended periods of time, if not forever, without charging them with anything, giving them access to a lawyer, family, etc. All they do is talk to family and friends over the phone and drive kids around anyway - they have nothing to hide; do you? Principles go down the drain when government uses scare tactics.
You are making it sound like it's OK to violate the Constitution as long as you don't violate the 1st amendment. The US PATRIOT Act and government's actions based thereon, violate 4th, 5th, 6th, and 8th amendments, among other things. i.e., courts will uphold the 1st amendment, but not care at all about others? How is this justified?
If you get on that list by accident, or by 'expanding classifications' you can kiss your career good bye.
Hell, you wont even be able to flip burgers at the local burger-doodle to support your family.
Expect a lot of criminals to be created by this.
Next stop, 1984...
---- Booth was a patriot ----
Amendments, that is. Because this is doubtlessly a reporting mechanism as well as an information gathering one, your employer can now violate your fourth amendment rights to unreasonable search and seizure. Now, if this database comes to contain nefarious information about you, the FBI can prevent you from getting a job, thus violating your rights to due process and to be punished only as the result of a lawful trial. That is covered under number five. For the grand finale, by allowing private organizations to submit data about you which will (as previously mentioned) be used to your detriment, the protections granted under the sixth amendment, the right to face your accuser, is also circumvented.
All this AND the government makes money off of it! It's a win-win scenario!
who are those slashdot people? they swept over like Mongol-Tartars.
They seem to eventually evolve to near-panic as hints of rationality get applied.
Why can't they start out rational and lead to a well supported factual basis to make a decision?
Is is a slashdot problem or is everyone incapable of cool-headed, reality-based decision making?
Uh.. Ya.. thats what the Carnival Algorithem needed, Cheaper, Easier, Faster ways to test potential terrorist. I mean hey buying a 6 plane tickets from Boston to Washington DC is just to damn expensive. We need to allow these guys to apply for a job as a janoitor, get rejected...and move on to the next canidate. At least we have a war over seas, and we are trying to pick our fights there. The deptarment of Homeland insecurity coudlnt protect its own cherry on prom night.
Thank you George Bush Junior for pushing us back into one of the worst chapters of recent American History.
The damage this will do...
Please, study history so we don't repeat it. I wasn't any good at it in school, but I've seen enough repeats in my years to know it's worth learning and remembering.
"Perhaps, although doing so would be a clear violation of the first amendment's freedom of assembly"
Perhaps you should read about the governments response to an antiwar conference at Drake Univertsity after which a few people committed an act of peaceful civil disobedience. The DOJ swept in and wanted to know everyone who attended and everything that was said, they placed a gag order on the Univertisty prohibiting the University from telling anyone about the massive investigation because they wanted to keep it secret, a grand jury was impaneled etc.
http://www.counterpunch.org/nimmo02102004.html
http://www.mapm.org/drake.htm
The DOJ backed off when their investigation became public, it was so massive they couldn't keep it secret, and it was starting to get embarassing how massively they'd overreacted and how much they were treading on basic civil liberties. But they no doubt have cataloged everyone who'd attended the conference and have them all on file as potential troublemakers. There is also no telling how far they would have gone if they'd kept the investigation secret.
The fact is Al Queda wins as much by the massive bureaucratic overreaction to try and prevent terrorism, as by the original act.
First off the Bush Administration keeps saying terrorists hate us for our "Freedom and Democracy" but it is double speak because the fact is the Bush administration is using Terrorism to dismantle freedom and democracy. Big corpratist government want a bunch of docile workers reporting to their cubes everyday, and NEVER doing anything that would resemble protest, dissent, disagreement with wrong doing(something the Bush administration is apparently rich in) or antisocial behavior. To achieve this they just need a database with detailed histories of everyone, and for every employer to check this database as a condition of employment and soon enough you either:
A. Never protest, dissent, or engage in antisocial behaviour
B. Never work again unless you can scrape together self employment.
Someone will, no doubt argue, how "Free" America is. It does kind of look free on the surface but in most respects its really not unless you are willing to be homeless and starving and then you might get arrested for vagrancy.
It should be noted that the U.S now has the highest per capita prison population in the world (though China and North Korea might be higher they just dont report accurately). This honor used to belong to the Soviet Union's gulags but the U.S. now leads Russia who is a close second. How did this happen, primarily by the "War on Drugs" which first and foremost punishes people for recreational drug use and drug addiction which is decidely antisocial behavior. Its also due to 3 strikes laws that pass down life sentances for things like shoplifting.
The economic damage thats also being done to the U.S. by this overreaction will eclipse the direct damage done by 9/11. Hundreds of billions on databases and computers to track everyone in the U.S. or who passes through, a constant push to equip every local fire and police department, no matter how small, with a complete bio and chem warfare capability, a nationwide sensor grid to spot the first hint of a biochem cloud, laser missile defense systems in every airplane, continuing pressure to inspect every bit of cargo entering the U.S. through every port, airport or truck.
Stop the insanity. All this stuff does produce economic activity, often to the benefit of companies who are benefactors of the administration, but its also contributing to massive budget deficits and its pure economic waste because every countermeasure costs billions and the terrorist will just switch to a mode of attack that circumvents the countermeasures, leading to more countermeasures and more economic damage. This is a key objective of the doctrine of guerilla warfare, bleed the target white economicly trying to stop you. You can't win against terrorism by never ending escalation of repres
@de_machina
Join the club. I am a PhD Candidate studying Arabic and Computational Linguistics at Georgetown university. You would think that someone like me might be of great use to my country and government - remember that the government's lack of linguistic talent plays a large role in its failure in the war on terrorism and in the occupation of Iraq. Oh, also I speak Farsi, Spanish, and Chinese. I was turned down for a Top Secret Clearance because in the past I had smoked marijuana a few times - I got a letter saying that this was done in the interests of national security. Before this happened, the phone was ringing off the hook with offers. Now, I'm lucky if I can even get scumbag recruiters who might call every few months to return my calls after the first conversation - and this when I am the only person qualified for the job. I had a roomate who had a TSC. He is a high school dropout, he has habitually used drugs in the past, associated with drug dealers, attempted to commit credit card fraud on my landlord, and he threatened to kill me several times. The government trusts him, but I am a threat to national security. My experience has taught me that this administration and the intelligence community do not want to catch terrorists, and they do not want to protect American lives. They want to fight a culture war, in which civil liberties are eroded, homosexuals and foreigners are persecuted, and ordinary citizens live in fear of having their lives destroyed through a poorly designed database that has a high rate of "collateral damage." When I was getting the Clearance, I naively believed that it was my skills, abilities and accomplishments which would determine my eligibility. I only pray that this experience will not get in the way elsewhere. Do not trust these people. They do not care about you, and they do not want to protect you.
Not that it'll help out with the job stuff, but I'd send off to the investigating agency for a copy of the investigation (IIRC, both the Privacy Act and FOIA apply, but the PA entitles you to more of the investigation). It will be redacted, but unless things are more corrupt than I hope in government, you will see what was actually considered. Sounds like it was the agency's loss in this case.
My personal advice to you: don't be afraid. You see, America is getting caught up in mass hysteria. Be brave and sensible... there are not terrorists lurking behind every corner.
Why do I bother posting this? Am I drunk? No. I want to encourage you to consider your civil responsibility/duty to keep America sane: encourage your fellow Americans to relax. Don't get so wound up; don't reach for your gun. Let's get the population calmed down... turn OFF the TV news channel, go outside and get some fresh air, and think sensibly about what kind of America you want to live in.
I'll wager that you want your country to be strong and free. So do I! If everyone can calm down a bit, we can avoid doing some stupid things that are going to hurt Freedom.
The sad reality is that this database will be used to intrude upon the privacy of the 99.9999999% of people who are not terrorists.
Say you irritate someone in a fairly elevated position and say that person is fairly well connected with someone who can add people to the terror list. So they add your name to the terror list.
So some FBI agent wants to know why you're on the terror list. He gives your name to the local PD as "just check on this guy". The local PD, being fairly bored with nothing better to do, happily and eagerly complies with the new system of checking on potential terrorists. You start to wonder why all of your friends leave the bar about 15 minutes after you show up. They say you're paranoid but everyone keeps looking over your shoulder. You start to get pulled over because your brake lights looked funny, or you were doing 65.2 mph in a 65 zone.
Your boss starts to take a lot more interest in your personal life and becomes offended when you don't open up your life to him. Other managers at work also begin poking and prodding your work. You start to challenge all the extra-special attentin and ask what the purpose of the seeming harassment is. Everyone's eyes glaze over and they accuse of you of being paranoid.
Eventually the FBI agent wears you down with all of this clandestine poking and prodding and investigating. Perhaps you even start to come apart at the seams. The intense scrutiny leaves your nerves on edge and your character becomes more antagonistic.
Where are the reparations? Where's the control on this system? At what point is the initial name-submitter responsible for starting a witch hunt?
Other than that consideration... fine, make your lists. Who gives a good cat's backside?
+++ATHZ 99:5:80
To me, this link proves little or nothing.
Some of these "protesters" don't know the difference between the right to peaceable assembly and run-amok vandalism.
Read the reports there. The "protesters" say that they came "to shut down" a private facility, based on some kind of tenuous logic linking it to military efforts of which they did not approve.
One of the marchers refers to himself as part of a group of "reinforcements" meant to attack a particular gate. Union dock workers, according to another one of those same reports you linked to, were sent home because of the danger posed by the "protesters."
Another marcher writing there remarks on the generally light, even "friendly" treatment received from police just a few days before. Hmm. What was missing from the prior event? Could it be breaking and entering, trespassing, and vandalism?
The truth is that most of the airheads who get involved with these marches haven't the vaguest idea what oppression is. Rubber bullets and flash bangs against an unruly mob, and they play it up like they were mowed down with gun fire and buried in landfill, like the victims of a certain recently-eliminated tyrant we know of.
Clearly, everyone should guard their freedoms diligently, and speak up when they think those freedoms are infringed. But if you squawk "ooh, I'm bein' oppressed ovah heah!" and "see the violence inherent in the system!" when the cops are simply protecting the peace against your assaults on it, then you're not going to win many friends, to say nothing of winning arguments on their logcal merits.
Nto all teorrists are outsiders..ever here of Terry Nichols?
Why should us tax payers pay for an ineffecive boondoggle?
Don't Tread on OpenSource