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Sun Sacks UltraSparc V and 3300 Employees
bender writes "According to this article, Sun Microsystems has cancelled the next generation UltraSparc V processor even though the chip had already taped out. Perhaps this has something to do with the recent partnerships with AMD and Fujitsu?"
First they settle with Microsoft for $2 billion, and now this. Are things really this bad for Sun?
Money talks, Sun employees walk.
"On the other hand, the cancellation underscores the difficulties Sun has been facing in the difficult world of chipmaking."
Doesn't that just say it all?
Wireless News www.DailyWireless
This is most unfortunate since the UltraSPARC line was extremely efficient. Under heavy loads even an UltraSPARC II with 128MB of RAM could outperform an Intel chip with ten times the RAM.
Sun cannot compete with Linux/AMD64. Hopefully Microsoft did not buy IP ownership rights for Java, because Sun ought to open-source it before the company expires.
They couldn't get Windows to run on it.
I once worked for US West (a local phone company) and they had entire ROOMS full of nothing but SUN equipment - actually running. I worked in IT for them and I still can't imagine what all of these systems did.
Anyway, the article is pretty clear that the new Chip platform is simply being eliminated because it's a needless step inbetween their IV and the new processors that are lining up for release... in 2 years.
So I guess this means I'm feeding a troll that didn't read the article.
Kinetic stupidity has a new brand leader: Allen Zadr.
Over beer, this is the way my friend and I see the future:
.NET to Solaris. Mono dies swiftly.
0. Gosling leaves Sun for IBM.
1. All Sun hardware will run on AMD
2. Sun will port
3. Java bytecode will target the CLR
4. Sun/MS/HP vs. Intel/Dell/IBM/Linux
5. Apple keeps innovating
The Register has it here. Sun Kills off Sparc V and Gemini and releases Niagara and Rock. Not as big a deal as most of you make it out to be.
Saying Java is nice because it works on all OS's is like saying that anal sex is nice because it works on all genders.
Every time I think of Sun, I think about my commute home past their headquarters. In the summer of 2001 (if memory serves correct), I drove by via San Tomas and saw a tree in one of those planter boxes - like the wooden boxes that trees come in when you buy them from a nursery.
This tree was a HUGE oak tree though - had to be 100 feet tall at least, with a trunk that was probably 5 feet wide. And it sat there in a big planter box waiting to be "planted." The transportation costs alone must have cost a fortune.
The point is, while the industry began plunging into the abyss, Sun was farting around buying full-blown oak trees to make their campus look "pretty" - while other companies were working to stay afloat.
It seemed then that they had their blinders on, and while a fair amount of companies are stabilizing now here in the valley, they seem to be trying to stop the bleeding a bit late.
Perhaps if they'd spent less time farting around with building campuses and more time on building their market, they'd be in better shape. After all - if you let your employees go, who's going to look at the trees?
Just a thought... it seemed symbolic to me of what was wrong there - perspective. Shame though... they're so much more likeable than MS.
Please, if you're going to enourage your readerbase to read an article, please do the same.
Sun said nothing about laying off the Ultrasparc V or Gemini staff.
"Sun plans to lay off 3,300 employees, but many from the UltraSparc V and Gemini projects will remain at Sun, the spokeswoman said."
They are getting ready to layoff 30% of their staff, not 9%
After the election, HP and IBM will be doing some as well, but it it unknown how much.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
Those who read the article will see that this is far from Sun getting out of the chip business and moving to Windows, but rather a retooling that will allow them to return to profitablility in the near future. Instead of the UltraSparc V, they're going to stick with modifications to the UltraSparc IV for the time being while they work on putting out their multicore followup, the Nigara. Personally, I'm glad to see this. Sun has been a stagnating company in the hardware department for a while now, and I think a good shakeup is what they need. There will always be a need for the rock-solid server market that they fill, and x86 just doesn't cut it in a lot of cases. So, don't worry, Sun isn't going anywhere, and if they did, someone else would step in to fill their place (and it wouldn't be MS &/| Intel).
"If English was good enough for Jesus, it's good enough for everyone else."
BTW, am I the only person that thinks Slashdot's one sided "sun is dying" post is an attack on Sun? They settle with MS and the OSS crowd turns their back on them almost over night.
Saying Java is nice because it works on all OS's is like saying that anal sex is nice because it works on all genders.
Don't confuse the CPU a system uses for the entire performance value of the system. There are different bus and memory architectures that can do a lot to differentiate the performance of a "pricey" Sun with an AMD and the "value" machine you'd assemble from commodity parts
SGI did this with Pentiums (II's or III's if I remember correctly), though a lot depends on marketing which has not beeb SGI's strong point as of late so don't site SGI as an anecdote to predict Suns failure also.
You mean here
Another story is here, which explains things a bit more clearly.
"Then, in late 2006 and 2007, the company will release Niagara, a multicore, multithreaded chip."
Sun will somehow finish a significantly more complex processor when they give up on this one? IBM, AMD, and Intel will be four times ahead of Sun in three years. By killing the UltraSparc V, Sun has to execute perfectly in an arena they've stumbled in the past.And another group of several thousand highly-qualified people lose their careers! Just what society needs! Another example of how hard work and dedication just don't matter any more.
Oh, and don't forget to "keep your skills current."
"So, what was your last job?"
"I was a microprocessor designer."
"What makes you think you're qualified to work at Lying Rat Bastards Inc.?"
"I have a Masters Degree in Electrical Engineering from Cal Tech"
"Well, unless you graduated last year, I'm afraid your skills aren't current. Thanks for stopping by."
Business isn't willing to pay for products, innovation and careers, so we get brands, mortgage commercials and layoffs.
Has Netcraft confirmed this?
Those developers deserved to be fired, not graced with a lay-off. They were a couple years behind schedual. AC Sun employee.
SANTA CLARA, CALIF. - April 10, 2004 - Sun Microsystems, Inc., is pleased to announce their intention to expand into a whole different market with their new line of chips, labelled "SUN potato chips 1000". This new product is a direct response to the fritolay product with a similiar name. "We expect to have instant brand name recognition with the top consumers of snack products, primarily made up of computer geeks" one company spokesperson said with the condition that he remain anonymous.
I Am My Own Worst Enemy
These are big, generally single threaded applications. In 2001, we used Suns becuase they supported memory sizes we needed. Gate simulation needed about 5GB of physical memory. P&R more like 10GB. For smaller jobs, we used x86 boxes. They wern't just cheaper. They were faster.
But now EDA vendors are starting to support AMD64. With Sun's announcment, the performance gap is going to get wider. No Ultrasparc V. Niagara and Rock won't help, even when they get here.
"The technique, which won't result in chips larger than those from competitors, sacrifices the ability to perform one task extremely quickly for the ability to do multiple independent tasks simultaneously"
No good. No good at all. How long before Synopsys, Cadence, and Magma do the unthinkable and actually drop support for Sparc/Solaris?
Those in charge of sacking the Sun Ultra Moose V have been sacked... ...Those in charge of sacking the previous sackers hav enow been sacked as well. The processor race will now end in an entirely different manner from the way in which it began.
They didn't give up on it... they finished it.
.5Million just for the mask set.
Not quite. Big chips almost never work right the first time. Minor design changes are always required. Best case, Ultrasparc V was months and millions of dollars away from done. Each "spin" throught he fab is
I suspect the situation for Ultrasparc V was worse than that. If they had truly taped out then the chip would already be in the fab. More likely, the database was in condition that it could have been fabed but it was not meeting performance targets.
"We have no Linux strategy. Linux sux!"
"We love Linux, so we are slapping our brand on SuSE Linux, and calling it JavaDesktop for no good reason whatsoever, and will get rich, rich I tell you!"
"We want EVERYONE to use Java. Oh, pay no attention to those hoops over there..."
"We hire the greatest talent in the world. Our employees are our most valued assets."
"Microsoft is our arch-enemy."
---
SCO is weenies
Gator is Spyware
Microsoft is thugs
Those trees were for the RiverMark development across the street from the Sun campus (nothing to do with Sun's campus). I watched them dig them out of the field and put them in planters (used to live over at Mansion Grove on Lick Mill Blvd & San Tomas/Montague); they were just being moved while the RiverMark construction took place. There was a huge field there with nothing but a couple of beautiful old oak trees that is now full of houses, shopping center, etc... I was quite impressed with the developers for taking the time and expense to save those great old oaks.
Ultra-Sparc is alive and well! If anything, Sun seems to be freeing up some engineers to work on the more promising future versions. As long as these extra hands and eyes don't slow things down (now, who's law is that?), this will probably be a good thing.
Sometimes boldness is in fashion. Sometimes only the brave will be bold.
The PrimePower 850 just blew away the V880, even with 2 less cpu. The PrimePowers use Sun Solaris and are 99.9999% * compatible because (I didn't realise this) that Sun do not own the Sparc design, Sparc Consortium do. I do not believe that Fujitsu will buy Sun outright because they simply do not have the money and have been doing lots of expensive merging of various subsidiary companies this year to save costs; e.g. the old ICL has become Fujitsu Services along with some other straggler companies including Fujitsu's Sun reseller company.
I would say that Fujitsu PrimePower are about 1 year ahead of Sun in terms of power & speed and in our tendering process were a lot cheaper as well.
Probably worth mentioning that I didn't buy Fujitsu in the end because the machines were not certified to use Oracle RAC - instead, I went for HP (linux) - the business benefits for linux outweighed the change from solaris.
* PrimePower won't run SunCluster - that scared me a bit about fujitsu's compatibility claims.
My first real computing experiences were on Sun hardware. I've logged lots of time in front of Sparcstations up to E6500s and dozens of E450s. At one point, I thought Linux was a fad because it was so amateurish and unpolished compared to SunOS/Solaris. I still know more about SunOS/Solaris than I do about Linux. What a difference a few years makes...
I think Sun started dying when they started to push remote framebuffer devices as a viable business solution. Besides costing more than a PC, it required extensive reworking of the network in many cases. They killed off (then brought back) Solaris on Intel when sticking with it might have slowed down Linux adoption in the data center (people looking for cheap hardware -- PC servers -- are generally not looking for Sun boxes). Sun was riding high on the dot.com and Y2K booms but they were too slow, too entrenched to react when the landscape changed. Their hardware can no longer keep up with equivalent priced Intel machines with equivalent availability features. Hell, even the Apple machines are eating into traditional Sun markets in research and academia. Why? Their low-end, slowest machines are still $1,200 more than Apple or Intel.
Don't get me wrong. I liked Sun and still do. I want them to survive not only because it makes my skills more valuable, not only because they were largely friendly to open source, but because they have developed some cool technologies. But they have to change. Maybe these moves are a good thing (they can't be worse than the previous path). But they have to do more: quit being so wishy-washy with Linux (either embrace it fully or compete against it); make Java easier to install on Linux (I don't care if it's opened up or not); make Solaris9/Intel as functional as the Sparc version (where's SMC? At least make a Linux SMC client); lower the hardware prices to be more in line with the industry (even if this means putting together an IA32 or IA64 machine).
Another interesting point is that the SPARC64-V was made almost exclusively by native (Japanese) engineers. Fujitsu, as a matter of traditional Japanese corporate policy, does not hire H-1B workers.
Sun hired hordes of H-1B workers. About 66% of the people who worked on the UltraSPARC-V were former/current H-1B workers. This observation proves the fact that H-1B workers are not needed to create high-technology.
Here's the sweetest part: Sun will sell re-badged Fujitsu servers, starting in 2006. I know. I work in Sun's server department.
Ok - here goes my carma, but I just have to say it.
The cancellation of UltraSparc V is probably a good thing for everyone. US V was to be a new design, not fully compatible with the old ones, but instead leaning towards Itanic. This is good, mainly because it means that they will continue to focus on Sparc compatible chips. This means more stable hardware for us. Also this means that they will continue the focus towards multithread/multicore chips - which are terrific for server usage. KISS design, the way it should be done.
The alliance with Fujitsu is definitely a good thing. Fujitsu has great potential as a chip maker, and their Sparc CPU's are just as good as those made by Sun. What's bad is the supporting logic (Fujitsu-Siemens sparcs have limited LOM and are more expensive). This "union" if it happened would probably mean that we would see future sparcs with the best from both worlds.
Even the MS "pact" is not bad. It gets more money to sun, so that they can continue with the work, and shows us the perspective of using Sun instead of MS software for our server, while still being able to support MS clients. This would allow us to phase out MS from the corporate server pool easily, and also open room for Linux and other unices on the corporate desktop. Weather we like it or not MS is the current office standard and it will take us a lot of work to get it out of there. Not for the "office" (i.e. word, excel) but for the "groupware" software as the main backbone (outlook, exchange, and the new products).
The only "bad" thing is the layoff of 3000+ workers from the US, and the potential move of sun's cpu production from T.I. (and the US) to Fujitsu. And this is noting bad for the computing industry. It is bad for the US economy, but that's just the US. The rest of the world - and the unix community will probably end up benefiting from this.
I'm sure someone on /. has said that many times over, but it's not at all the case.
For those who are too lazy to read the article, Sun is NOT killing off the SPARC line, they are NOT discontinuing all their CPU production and they are NOT switching everything to AMD64 chips.
What Sun is doing is finally putting an end to their rather unsuccessful attempts to produce a single-threaded raw number crunching chip. Sun hasn't been successful at this for some time now (certainly since at least the UltraSparc II and probably for a while before then) and the UltraSparc V was just going to be another failure in this regard. No one buys Sun's for their raw number crunching performance anyway (since they stink in this regard), so this is really a pretty bright move by Sun. Really it's something they should have done a while ago.
The plan going forward is for Sun to work to their strengths. Their CPU division will produce highly multithreaded chips that are designed for server work, ie the sort of stuff that people buy Suns for in the first place. Their workstation line will be replaced by AMD64 systems since EVERYONE is moving their workstation line to x86 anyway. The only thing holding people to Sun workstations (and IBM or SGI workstations as well) was the lack of 64-bit capabilities on x86 chips, but that restriction is no more.
Sun will still need some SPARC workstation products for a while going forward to support customers with legacy Solaris software that can't easily be upgraded though. If they are smart, what Sun will do is buy some SPARC64-V chips from Fujitsu. This gives Sun faster chips for much lower cost then developping their own.
Everyone keeps talking about Sun "working with" Microsoft. I just don't see where this is happening. I don't see "settling a lawsuit" and "partnering" as being the same thing at all.
If you're talking about the cryptic "IP cross-licensing agreement", then why aren't you spitting the same venom at Apple? Because they signed such an agreement with Microsoft as well when they settled their lawsuits against Microsoft in 1997. I don't see this cross-licensing as "working with". This is just an "okay, no more lawsuits" agreement. Sun hasn't given up on fighting MS, they've just given up on fighting them in the courtroom.
Am I missing something?
Irritable, left-wing and possibly humorous bumper stickers and t-shirts