Slashdot Mirror
Apple Rejects RealNetwork's Pleas
TheJoKell writes "In a followup to a previous article, Apple has denied a meeting with Rob Glaser, Chief Executive of Real Networks, to discuss an alliance between the two companies. In an interview with the Wall Street Journal, Steve Jobs said, 'The iPod already works with the No. 1 music service in the world, and the iTunes Music Store works with the No. 1 digital-music player in the world. The No. 2s are so far behind already. Why would we want to work with No. 2?'"
I initially thought this was a good idea. Real gets a lot of credibility, and Apple gets someone else to sell songs for their iPod.
Then I started to think about the competing stores. It doesn't really do either of them any good to be selling the same songs, usually at the same price. I suppose it DOES give incentive to each of them to differentiate from the other store, but that's on TOP of the work that they have to do to offer more than the stores that use WMA.
I think Real's best proposition would be to somehow license the iTunes music store. Rather than set up a whole store on their own which is a huge waste of money - and arguably unsustanable - they could make it so it's possible to buy from the iTMS through their player. Steve would have to hand down some strict interface guidelines, but suddenly the Real player would have a lot of ACTUAL value added. Starting up their own store kind of looks like value added, but it's really just a gimmick when it's so hard to make money, do it properly, sell good music, etc.
--
If you don't like it, ignore it. All negative mods are meta-moderated 'unfair'. ALL OF THEM.
I like Real's Rhapsody service a lot and wish that it integrated well with iPOD. Having said that, it is just a business decision that is both logical and obvious to follow. Why would apple who has the number one music delivery service bow down to real? Doesn't really make sense to me. Unlike most people in ./ I dont bear hostility against Real, I think their player is easy to use and portable across many platforms.
Activists United
Considering Apple doesn't make really make money on iTunes, and the real profit is in selling iPods - does this really make sense?
...Microsoft.
Apple shouldn't be so arrogent when they are in the same position in a different field.
Ya, I thought they did this before with the PC, didn't want to open up there hardware because they were the best... well, hum...
Because they might be No. 1 someday?
Like, say, Microsoft. Gates urged Jobs to license, but he didn't listen. And the rest is history.
I guess Jobs hasn't learned his lesson after all these years.
Slashdot "libertarians": Small government for me, big government for those I disagree with. -1, I disagree with you
#2 + #3 + #4 + #5 + #... > #1
Did steve take math classes at all?
Its not even bowing down, its a partnership. Real is synonymous with poorly written software, nagware 'message centers' most people cant turn off, messing up file associations, hiding the free product on the website, etc. These guys are one step removed from penis pump spammers.
Apple's approach is user-centric and user friendly. Real hates the user and does *everything* it can to fool you buy their product when you just need the free one. They'll do anything to take over your system. They'll push 'message center' ads for a penny an ad.
In short: fuck Real. The sooner they go bankrupt the better off everyone is. There is room for a good company with a nice media player out there and Real has shown itself over the years that they are not this company.
There was this one guy who was really good at it. The general rule was: If you allied with him, you'd (usually) be the last person he killed off... But he still killed you off.
Why work with #2??? Because they're that much less likely to string you up on a moment's notice, and you might have someplace to go when #1 decides that you're expendable.
Free Software: Like love, it grows best when given away.
"it won't hold a candle to the ease of use and quality of service of the iTMS"
Don't see how you can say that. The service doesn't even exist yet.
iTunes for windows is a me-too application that's not better than Media Player. The current iPods are surpassed easily by the Rio Karma. Why would I want to use a music store through an inferior application that only supports and inferior mp3 jukebox? Not that I have any interest in online music stores but there's no way I'm interested in the Apple one. It's pure vendor lockin.
The market is young and there's a lot of the game left to play. People are so ready to conceed victory to Apple on this but history shows that not to be wise.
I think part of Apple's reluctance to team up with Real is because Apple want to make QuickTime ubiquitous. The latest stats I can find about media players place QT at the number 3 slot (WMP is #1 and Real is #2). Keeping in mind that Apple is trying to fortify itself as THE media creation company. For Apple to have more clout in the creative industry, especially in motion pictures and music, it needs to make sure its formats (even though they are all pretty much based on open standards) are the standards. And the only way to really do that is to have QT become much more popular than it is today.
Think about it. How does iTunes work? By using QuickTime. QT has had very bad rep in the PC world (flaky player, etc.), and many Windows users don't install it before. But now, with the iPod and iTunes Music Store, people are starting to install QuickTime again. iTMS won't work without it! Now if Real comes in and offers the same service but bypassing QT, people would no longer be installing QuickTime.
-B
The Apple II series had a 50+% marketshare at one time. It could have been the "standard" instead of the IBM PC -- the micro industry badly needed one.
Real is nobody. I don't know ANYONE that has half a clue about computers that is even ambililent about Real. They all dislike (up through hate) Real. Real doesn't have a large customer base. Real doesn't have lots of users who like them. Real doesn't have a good reputation.
To agree to this would be like Bank of America partnering up with a local loan-shark (who has, supposedly reformed and is no longer crooked and evil). It doesn't do anything for Bank of America except lower their reputation.
If someone worthy came to Apple, I think they would have been more likely to say yes. If Amazon had said "let us integrate iTMS into our website" that would help Apple. If Barns & Noble had done it, that would provide value. If Walmart, Blockbuster, or even Sam Goodey had asked, there would be value there. Those compares are at least respected by many people. They have many returning customers that they would provide.
As far as I'm concerned, Real is a company that is up to it's head in quicksand and covered in Ebola. They are reaching for ANYTHING to stay alive (MS settlements, partnering with Apple, who knows what tomarrow) but no reasonable company wants to help them because they would then be associated with them (catch Ebola in my example).
For Apple, Real would be more of a paracite than something that could provide a symbiotic relationship for Apple.
Shrugging off one of the companies I listed above would be one thing, and your argument would have legitimacy. But since it's Real, I can't believe your point.
Comment forecast: Bits of genius surrounded by a sea of mediocrity.
normally i would agree with you here. steve jobs is an arogant asshole, and i don't agree with his reasoning i do agree with him not teaming up with real. real was basicly offering apple nothing in return for apple saving their business. and real's past history shows them to be the kind of company no one will miss in the market place.
If you mod me down, I will become more powerful than you can imagine....
And thanks to the Jobs reality distortion field, when Microsoft's music service starts kicking their asses, they will have zero friends... as usual. As of now they are #1 in a market segment that is so close to zero in dollar sales as to not even show up on a large corp's balance sheet. Will their overpriced (if well built) incompatible players stay #1 as the other players get second generation products into the channel, partnered with Microsoft's power to unlock content from studios? No. When the player market shifts, iTunes Store can't stay #1 when they are reduced to selling to the little club of yuppies with iPods.
And #2? How about in another year or two when Apple is #3 behind Linux on generic Intel hardware. Watch for em on start racking up serious points over at FuckedCompany?
Yea, I know people have been writing Apple's epitath for almost twenty years now, but this time it is going to happen. There isn't room for a #3 that is as fudged up as Apple, with Steve Jobs living in that little world of his own, unwilling to be bothered to even speak to the other children on the playground. Being #2 has kept them alive all this time, if for no other reason than to be Billy boy's designated token competition. No more.
Is this decision going to be the one that seals their doom? Hell, considering Real is a walking zombie it might have even been a good business decision, but the arrogance of the delivery is a good symptom of the underlying problem for any willing to see it.
Democrat delenda est
Oh, and which non-Apple players support their "open standard" AAC, with DRM? The tracks your purchase require a second round of lossyness (AAC->CD->MP3/OGG) to listen to on non-Apple hardware.
DJ kRYPT's Free MP3s!
Seriously though, what could Apple gain from a tie-in with Real Networks. They are damaged goods.
They've been bleeding money for some time now. Their website is known to be something akin to an 'Indiana Jones hunt for the free player'. The BBC use them but they have to post a direct link to the free player because there's no way you could expect someone to comfortably find the download.
Why take the risk of tainting a succesfull product.
-- Using the preview button since 2005
For very low bandwidth (20Kbps) talk radio, I find Real to be the best sounding format. [prepares to be enemy listed]
Business. Numbers. Money. People. Computer World.
When he comes back to Apple to turn things around, he's Mr. Humble Pie.
WHAT are you talking about??? Maneuvered the then-CEO out of the company, threw out the board and replaced them with his friends... You call THAT humble???
For the record I think replacing the board was necessary to Apple's long-term survival and probably the single most important thing he did. And it was time for Amelio to go. But just because he was right sure as heck didn't make him humble!
Can you name one CEO that's not an arrogant SOB?
Perhaps Warren Buffet? I have read many of his letters to stockholders, and he seems like a pretty straight shooter.
Here is the latest , unfortunately in PDF format. I'll cut out a few quotes, though.
If we fail, we will have no excuses. Charlie and I operate in an ideal environment. To begin with, we are supported by an incredible group of men and women who run our operating units.
Overall, we are certain Berkshire s performance in the future will fall far short of what it has been in the past. Nonetheless, Charlie and I remain hopeful that we can deliver results that are modestly above average. That s what we re being paid for.
Granted, this fellow is incredibly wealthy, and perhaps he deliberately slants his writings with a false tone of modesty to avoid showing off his ego. Or maybe a cigar is just a cigar and he really is a regular guy inside...
A dingo ate my sig...
Apple is about the only one who realized that you can't make money by selling songs only, and are using it to back up their iPod sales.
If Microsoft starts a successful music store it will only destroy all the other competitors (like Napster/Real).
Why won't slashdot let me change my terrible username
In other words, Apple's iPod/iTunes success has created a Quicktime distribution juggernaut.
And that is exactly what Apple meant way back when about a Trojan Horse. Not only is QuickTime installed, but QuickTime contains the entire QuickTime Media Layer (QTML), basically a subset of the original Mac Toolbox APIs. I've ported a number of native Mac apps to Windows with minimal changes by riding on QTML's coattails. This is definitely a major win for Apple. They don't need Real by a long shot.
Okay, let me get this straight.
Download.com. Sourceforge. Countless, countless other companies and web sites.
You can go to them and download files *much* larger then your average MP3, which is let's say about 4MB. Many of them live on advertising alone.
If you're trying to tell me that it's too expensive to provide a service where you make ten cents for every four MB downloaded, I don't buy it.
- It's not the Macs I hate. It's Digg users. -
A 909% increase over a number in the statistical noise of consumer electronics sales isn't something to crow about. And look how much cash they are burning through in advertising to get it.
/low volume iPods were compatible, but that isn't the case. And once WMA has conquered the field the recording studios won't even renew Apple's license to run the iTunes Store. Their 1% marketshare won't justify pissing off Billy Gates.
The problem with iPod is that at the current unit sales it is ignorable and yet if the numbers DO become significant the established consumer electronics mfgrs will devour them with better, cheaper products. Sure Apple has some good designers..... but so does Sony, Samsung, etc. At the current price points Apple is working with iPod like devices will never become mainstream and Apple has a twenty plus year track record of not only being unable to do, but actually disdaining, the hard work of selling high volume/low margin consumer products.
This wouldn't be a problem if there were a standard and the higher quality
Of course my money is on none of the above. Consumers aren't stupid enough to buy into this DRM crapola. The Apple crowd was the perfect audience for iPod, they are generally artistic types (i.e. not overly rational) with tons of disposbale income and used to being abused in the wallet by Apple. I don't see the WinMX crowd lining up to buy crippled tracks.
The $0.99/track is a good pricepoint if it were on the same terms as CD sales, but DRM is a dealbreaker. Just too complicated and risky for me.
Democrat delenda est
I'm an Apple fan. I own an iBook. I own an iPod. And I have a .mac account. Steve Jobs was ousted in 1985. He went and started Next Computers. In the early 90's Apple had about a 10% market share. Steve Jobs returned to Apple in 1997. By then, they had about a 5% market share. For 2003, only about 2% of all personal computers sold were Apples.
Apple will never return to the 10% numbers until they get serious about the consumer market. Apple is pretty much gearing themselves to the prosumer and professional markets. Their consumer line of computers don't come close to the performance of entry level PC's.
Apple is selling a lot of iPods, but I think its got a short lifespan. Within the next couple of years, you will see flash-memory based players that hold about 5GB's of storage. And these will sell for under $100 at some point. By then, the price will win out over the glamour of the iPod. And once again Apple will be left behind. They just can't see that the DRM is the future and if they don't license theirs, Microsoft will win this market as well. And online music sites will continue to have only one option, WMA. And eventually it will win by sheer volume.
Refer to the comment by gad_zuki! (70830) on Friday April 16, @09:14PM (#8888310), and you will notice that this was COPIED AND PASTED. How about giving the original poster the plus 5 instead of this clever troll?
Way to waste those mod points! May you get metamoderated to shit.
Apple is pretty much gearing themselves to the prosumer and professional markets.
I think that's a tactful way of saying that Apple is milking their installed base. (Similar things said about other 'dinosaur' platforms like VAX or Sun workstations.)
Not that far in the future, good PCs are going to cost $500 each, and the cognitive dissonance between that and a $1500 Mac is going to be too much for even the most loyal Mac Fan to swollow. I'm willing to bet that Steve Jobs understands this better than most of his customers do.
Business. Numbers. Money. People. Computer World.
Real is still a competitor. To increase iPod sales, the best is to more HP-style licensing. If another company is promoting your product that's way better than you giving them your tech and have them competing against you. Apple should just bundle iTunes with all the PC manufacturers and let them put their logo on the back of their iPod. Distributed manufacturing, all under the Apple brand.
Exactly. Does this mean that the number one group of Office applications doesn't have to work with the number two operating system?
Bill, show Steve how arrogance works...
'Thats they exact same thing a banana wrench monkey.'
But, when you say noone likes Real, well, maybe I don't "like" them, but I'm certainly grateful for being the first of the three to even consider my platform.
This post will probably get buried being as late as it is in this story, but your (lukewarm) advocacy of Real make it as good a place as any.
All this talk about how Real is a terrible company, one that loads its poorly performing software with adware and spyware and adds to that would the salt of damaged file associations, etc. makes me think that Real is actually the victim of its own (poorly considered) strategy to compete with Microsoft on Windows.
Real can't get its icons on the desktop, it can't get access to the hardcore APIs that would enable its codec to work seamlessly with the various generations of MS Windows. So, it plays to kinds of games: 1 find the freeware, and 2) spamware masquerades as freeware.
Just a bit of random speculation that Real may be the victim of trying to play on Microsoft's court. Sad story if you look at it that way.
blog
You still don't get it. What if Microsoft gave the (DRM-protected) music away for free in order to sell their WMA-based (or something newer) player? Couple that with a big media blitz to sell the Microsoft players and then it would be goodbye, iPod.
The only players that would survive would be those that support many different formats: WMA, the iTMS format whatever it is, OGG, WAV, MP3 and whatever else. Some players like the iRiver H120 can already do that (well, mostly as far as I can tell from their site).
-Jem