Slashdot Mirror
SimChurch
Roland Piquepaille writes "It's Sunday and some of you might go to a church. But starting on May 11, and for a duration of three months, you'll be able to go to a virtual church. Only the building, with its altar and pews, will be virtual. The preacher, congregation and prayers will be real, according to this BBC News article, 'Glimpse inside the virtual church.' This experiment is launched by a Christian website, Ship of Fools, and will be named Church of Fools. Even with such a foolish name, the virtual church project has been approved by the church hierarchy. This overview contains other details and references about the Church of Fools project."
I'm torn.
On one hand, as a coder, sitting in front of the computer for hours on end I can attest to the meditative state the computer puts me in. I'm not a practicing catholic, but was raised one. Church never really had me contemplating as much as the cathode ray bombarding my brain with it's "green soothing light does". Of course i was a child.
On the other, if this virtual church has "pop up ads" and a whole other pile of garbage, what would jesus do? I mean in the bible he got angry because the holy place was being disrespected, because the spiritual was being commercialized, because the Temple was being desecrated by those who kill the holy and sell it...
Is this a joke?
"God is present wherever his people gather"
that (or something very similar) was what my pastor said when i asked him about marring me at my parents house instead of the church building itself. I dont see what that same concept couldnt apply to an online church.
Im actually quite tempted to "show up" may 11th. I was raised a christian, still consider myself one, however for various reasons I rarely attend services anymore.... (mainly lack of motivation on my part to actully get up, get ready & drive over to the church) I fully realize thats no excuse at all.. but visiting a virtual service or two might be just what the doctor ordered.
"Nyquil - The stuffy, sneezy, why-the-hell-is-the-room-spinning medicine."
I wonder if the term 'holy ground' will be modified to include web addresses? Will a priest have to personally visit each URL and bless it?
Will immortals no longer be able to kill the Highlander whilst one of his mozilla tabs has the simchurch open?
There is literally no reason why this sort of thing couldn't have already been going on for who knows how long.
There are all kinds of people in games like Second Life, There, and The Sims Online that take the game way too seriously. It's only a matter of time before someone starts religious services, if they haven't already.
I've seen groups of people all wearing shirts with Crosses and quotes like "Got Jesus?" for a while. An official meeting place on Sundays is only one step away.
"Everything you know is wrong. (And stupid.)"
Moderation Totals: Wrong=2, Stupid=3, Total=5.
I wonder if the Church of Fools has worked out the theological implications of the fact that their priests and pastors are now avatars?
Instead of putting up a virtual church, Jesus would go to those people's houses who couldn't otherwise go to church, and personally worship with them.
That's What Jesus Would Do.
Of all the non threatening social situations, I can't imagine a less threatening atmosphere than a church.
But who knows, maybe this will find it's niche.
As long as they don't junk it up with ads and demand membership fees or whatnot the only problem I see with it is that the internet is a wire monkey. It's bad to depend on the internet for your social fix. Real life person to person interaction is necessary. And of all the places to avoid it, church isn't it.
I also have to wonder how they're going to deal with trolls.
Ben
Work Safe Porn
I think the people who are organising this are quite aware that its a gimmick, and I think that's probably the point. The article said that they were interested in attracting people who wouldn't otherwise go to a church. There are lots of other examples of churches organising surprising or gimmicky events to attract a different audience. The biggest risk is that they will only get people who go to church anyway. I imagine one of the aims will be to put non-Christians into contact with a local non-virtual church. (btw i'm not using gimmick as a derogatory term)
of the 58ish comments I've read, I've not seen one childish outburst on the side of the Christians, only on the side of those non-christian...not to say we won't stir up a fantatic in a minute, but it reflect badly on the rest of us...I detect a bit of unforgiveness on the parts of non-christians here. *putting all thoughts of imaginary karma aside, he scrolls by the "Post Anonymously" button and straight on to "Submit"*
Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon. -- Susan Ertz
There was a piece on the radio earlier today about "Organists Behaving Badly." That's a group of church organists who try to work secular music (e.g. the theme from The Simpsons) into their repertoire without any of the churchgoers catching on. One of the organists they talked to was involved with ShipOfFools.com.
If you want to google for it, I think it was a BBC radio story.
-Rich
I'm not waiting for God for "force" me to give up a rather nice salary in tech to serve full time: I'm praying He'll make it possible.
:-)
I've already been through the experience of receiving a calling from a cushy academic computing job to go to seminary. Now that I've been in seminary for 3 years, I don't think I can ever see myself working full-time in computing again, even if I do love these infernal machines. I'm working part-time in tech now to support my family while I study. Hopefully, my current pastorate will soon become a full-time position, even if the church can never pay me as much as I made as a full-time geek.
As for church being "non-threatening," the church tends to reflect the values of the pastor. I almost applied for the Oxford "i-Church" pastorate, but I'm not Anglican. BTW, they have an interesting question on the application: "Do you own a car?" I'd think a decent computer (preferably running *nix) with a fast connection would matter more.
JA
http://www.johnalex.org/
But at least with Christianity we do not try to build up a portfolio of proofs but instead rely more on faith. The search for the truth differs between athiests and Christians (I can't speak for other theistic religions). Atheists require proof of God from a scientific/head based point of view while Christianity combines the knowledge of God in out spirit while always relying on faith.
I can tell you a story of a friend who was raised from the dead, of a Chinese preacher who lived for 74 days in prison without food or water, of people with incurable diseases being healed but this will not change a thing. Science cannot explain these things yet your head will not let your heart entertain the idea that there may be a God.
"She's a West Texas girl, just like me" - G.W Bush Iraqis
That's nothing. I've been attending The Church of Critical Thinking on-line for weeks...
I just want to hit on this because I think you misunderstand _why_ Jews don't try to convert everyone. I am a pretty well educated Orthodox Jew, so I think I can explain.
This isn't about "keeping the truth from everyone". That's silly. Ask a Jew about his religion, he'll tell you everything you want to know (to the limit of their own knowledge). It's funny, but Judaism the religion has no "secrets only clergy may know". Even kaballah was not really secret so much as reserved for people who had a deep understanding of Jewish knowledge already - the thought was that you'd go crazy if you didn't understand it properly. Nowadays, of course, any idiot can go buy a copy of the Zohar (in English, too!). Hardly secret knowledge!
Anyways, back on topic. Jews have no desire to convert gentiles because there's no need whatsoever. If they (the gentile) observe the seven Noachide laws (which, I may add, are not exactly hard to keep), they go to heaven. It's a pretty damned good deal, considering "real Jews" have to keep 613 commandments. A bit more reward for that, but heaven is heaven, and it's better than nothing.
Additionally, in a historical context, _every forced conversion_ of a population (it happened twice, IIRC, Samaritans and I think some population in northern Israel/Lebanon) was a big huge mistake, and it is taught that way in even the most right-wing of yeshivas. Therefore, you're never going to see any popular groundswell of support for forced conversion in Jewish religion. The "tradition" is, thankfully, not there, and is actively reviled.
So, interpret not as "hiding", but rather as "what's the point of converting?" That's why you're supposed to turn away someone who wants to convert 3 times before trying to help them. It's out of their best interests.
I suppose the inevitable question then becomes, why would anyone ever _really_ convert to Judaism? I honestly don't have an answer. I think it's emotional and spiritual attachment to the Jewish people. That's the best I can give.
A final addendum: Jews don't believe you go to hell for not being Jewish and not keeping the seven noachide laws. An interesting contrast to Christianity, I think.
-Erwos
Plausible conjecture should not be misrepresented as proof positive.
This is s joke. Christianity refuses to reflect upon itself and understand the present. Instead of a reflection of beliefs and their relevance in our world, the church continues to refuse conceptual evolution and decides instead to masquarade modernization through such ridiculous methods. The Accessibility of the church has to do with its teachings more than its method of delivery. Assuming that the article and site are true and legit, then this is only a pitiful attempt by institutionialized "religion" to skirt around the true issues hampering its growth. The blessing of the arcbishop of this venture only serves to undescore the desire of "religion" to recruit those unable to logically and rationally understand themselves and their place for themselves. For me, the accessibilty of the Church could only be achieved through the revision of the Bible, significant texts, and the church structure, not through pitiful medium migration. And just for the creator/owner/whoever of Church of Fools, who said that "if we don't like it, don't visit the site": I haven't visited the site--I have visited an opinion discussing forum where analysing and the perpetuating of arguments is purpose of its existence. This "if you disagree, get out" type mentality is truly one of the inherent problems of the church ideology in practice, and is utterly irrelevant here
But us Gentiles by and large don't even know what the Noachide law requires us to do and how perfectly must we obey the laws once we discover them?
A final addendum: Christians don't believe you go to heaven for keeping a set of laws. An interesting contrast to Judaism, I think.
"She's a West Texas girl, just like me" - G.W Bush Iraqis
Firstly my post was worded poorly. I'm not trying to say that this is proof of God's existance. In my mind this was a miracle but miracles rarely convince non-believers.
Here's the full story:
My friend (let's call him Bob) grew up as a Satanist. His father is still the head of a Satanic group. Through his girlfriend and eventual wife he became a Christian. He constantly battled Satan's forces both physically, mentally and spiritual. One day he suddenly fell into a coma. The doctor's could not find any reason for it. While in hospital, during visiting hours, a group of Satanists visited him, chanted around his bed for a while before being chased off by one of Bob's friends. Not long after however he died (flatlined and all that). Twenty minutes later, before being taken away he sat straight up and asked if he could go home. Later that day he was on the net telling his story. The next morning milking the cows.
"She's a West Texas girl, just like me" - G.W Bush Iraqis
interesting sig.
Now, I don't know your gender, but lets make some suppositions:
If you are male, then you are asking females to either be rather petite (or anorexic), or pretty smart (IQ 145? That's pretty high.). Despite what some mags make you think, 100 lbs isn't the average weight a white female. Try 140 lbs for a 30 yr. old woman Halls Md. (this is the 50th percentile). This means that if you are male, then you are looking for a woman with an IQ of at least 140. 145 would put her at THREE standard deviations above the mean of the population (by definition), which only something like 0.01% of the population. Not bloody likely.
Now, if you are female, then this is even more unlikely--the 50th percentile of men at age 30 are 170 lbs; in order to surpass this mark they would need to have an IQ at LEAST 4.67 std. deviations above the mean. Percentage wise this is less than 0.0001% of the population. Even less bloody likely!
For information the current US population is about 270,000,000 (give or take). Assuming an even gender split, and saying 50% are over 18 (making it legal), if you are male, you are saying you will only date about 675,000 of the people in the US. While this is a large number, you have to realize that some of them will be older, and some younger. Also, you have to consider that many of them are probably already married or dating. Your numbers are dwindling.
If you are female, then that number drops to 6,750, which is also high due to married ones, etc. You are being very selective here.
So my final question is: how do you plan to meet them? Good luck.
(BTW, my post fails to account for the possibility that you might be male looking for a male, or female looking for a female. Let's just say that the available population dwindles even further in that case.)
"We don't know what we are doing, but we are doing it very carefully,..." Wherry, R.J. Personnel Psychology (1995)
Actually since Christians believe in life after death, it doesn't make sense to say that only "interactions in the 'real' life" are valid.
Jesus said plenty about the thoughts being as significant as the deed. Look at a woman lustfully = committing adultery with her in your heart. Be angry with your brother = subject to judgement.
See: Matthew Chapter 5
In fact what Jesus talks about has become even more applicable as time goes on - technology exists to allow people to have virtual sex with each other without physical contact. Errant husbands can't say it isn't adultery coz it's not "real" by Jesus's terms.
With the brain chips they've tested on monkeys and are testing on the paralyzed, soon people may even be able to kill others without even moving a finger - just thinking about it would be enough. Previously you had to speak or press a key or click on a mouse.
Ah, but I argue that atheism is not a religion.
// atheism
It is instead, the null set.
Consider this programming analogy:
Religion religion;
religion = new Religion("Javaism");
religion = null;
Still, if one were to consider atheism an instance of religion, then it's one that predates all others and that will remain strong when the current majors are reduced to an obscure entry in Wikipedia.
If we ever encounter alien sentients likewise infected with religion, the only thing we'll have in common will be atheism.
Humans are born atheist and then forced to convert by their legal wards.
For more discussions about atheism, check out my journal