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Corporate Work in the US vs. Canada?
No One You Know asks: "I've been working as a sysadmin for an insurance company in the US for the past six years, and have decided to move to Canada. I've had it with corporate America, but I'm trying to keep an open mind while job hunting. How does Canadian corporate life compare to that of the US?"
... Tim Hortons
Cananda is not the 51st state and moving there isn't like moving to North Dakota.
If you are unhappy with corporate life in the US, get out of corporate life, not the US. Insurance is one of those industries dominated very large companies. Lots of rules, regulations and PHB. Go find a (stable, profitable, non-high tech) company with 80 - 200 employees. It is a whole 'nother world working for a small to midsized company.
Generally, variability within different U.S. companies (corporate culture and procedures) is greater than that between the U.S. and Canada (or the U.K., or Australia), so it depends on where you wind up.
First few weeks are difficult, but people have a lot of patience if you are seriously interested in learning thier language.
In a few years you will find that you have not only become bi-ligual, but bi-cultural, you will be able to switch between different ways of thinking, frankly it really broadens then mind.
Then, who knows, next stop Europe! If nothing else it is a great thing on your CV!
And if you thought that was boring you obviously havn't read my Journal ;-)
It works like this: you get paid less and taxed more.
In exchange it costs slightly less to live and hostpitals won't turn you away.
I never worry about my office building/city/town getting targeted by terrorists. That's not to say it won't ever happen, but when was the last time you heard anyone say, "Let's get those damn Canadians"?
Canadian born and educated
moved to the US 10 years ago after finishing my PhD
worked in the US and Canada as a developer/intern, and in the US as a professor and executive
Bias: as a child, I was always an American-wanna-be My opinion: Canada and the US are very similar: It is wisely said that Canadians are polite, unarmed Americans, with health care. However, there are interesting differences:
- Canadians are more "conservative", in the small-c sense of danger-aversion. Canadians by and large will accept an average lower standard of living in exchange for a lower risk of catastrophe. This shows up in substantially lower wages for technical staff, but with a substantially higher standard of living for those supported by the social safety net.
- There is much less entreprenure-ship in Canada. Go to Canada if you like large companies, because there are a lot fewer start-ups.
- Republican bullshit not withstanding, the Canadian single-payer health care system works better than anything I have ever seen in the US.
- Canadians are generally more reasonable and less excitable than Americans. Conversely, Canadians are a lot less exciting than Americans. A Canadian radio station once ran a contest to pick a saying analogous to "As American as apple pie." The winner was "As Canadian as possible, under the circumstances."
A lot of Canadians have a very poor opinion of the quality of life in the US. I submit that this is because a substantial plurality of Canadians actually live in Southern Ontario, between Buffalo and Detroit. If all you ever heard of the US was that North Tonowanda was burning again, what would you think?Crispin
----
Crispin Cowan, Ph.D.
CTO, Immunix Inc.
Anyway, these two fellows from very different social backgrounds, one essentially being the boss' boss of the other, seemed to feel pretty comfortable kicking back a few bottles of Blue (Labbatt's Blue, the Canadian equivalent of... well, they drink the stuff as often as we drink coke or pepsi down here). Mind you, I often went out with both our CEO and with the people who worked for me, but that was the nature of my job. You'd rarely see my company's CEO out at lunch with our software developers, and if you did, they weren't exactly comfortably chit-chatting and kicking back beers, it always seemed much more strained.
It was always a pleasure to do work with our Canadian customers, and we always had a good time up there. Of course, I have to note that these guys were all making about a third what they'd have been making in the Boston area, when you account for currency differences and so on (then again, the cost of living is certainly lower up there, though it's not THAT much lower). Also, I suspect that big corporate environments in Canada are more uptight than what I saw, and I doubt that a large insurance company in Canada would be so much more laid back than a large insurance company in the US. But maybe I'm wrong.
As a job hunting System Admin. in Toronto, I can tell you the job market is pretty crappy. Unless you already have a job lined up, don't hold your breath for a sysadmin position.
You should also note that jobs in Canada are much more political than jobs in the U.S. Office politics plays a bigger role, and you better be good at the game to get anywhere.
I can understand your (mostly WRONG) attitudes towards Canada, since you were actually raised in a different country.
;-)
That's the point though - Canada is a different country than the US - Canada is not USA-Lite. I don't mind the things you're railing against, since I've decided to accept them as the price of having my country the way it is - which is the country I love. If the poster is willing to accept that things will be different here, he'll come to love his new country, too.
BTW, try some of the establishments on St. Catherine street in Vieux Montréal - the ladies there will change your mind about Quebecers being unfriendly.
Soko
"Depression is merely anger without enthusiasm." - Anonymous
I guess any is better than none.
~S
"does Canada value freedom and speech in all the same ways as the USA does"
Uh, we have a constitution as well. And we have the same rights as you do. But we didn't get it before 1980-something.
Before that, we had the BNA Act (British North American Act); it didn't really formally promise or guarantee anything, but being a rational, respectful people, we pretty much just agreed to get along and give others the same rights we would like ourself.
Now, maybe it's time to pick up a book, and learn about the country that does the most trade with the US, provides the most oil and gas to the US, speaks the same language with basically the same accent, and in general has been Americas closest ally (current situation aside). Canadians know alot about America and Americans, and show a fair bit of interest about what goes on there.
Would be nice to see that feeling reciprocated one day.
Try going into the 'small business' America. Its MUCH different then the big coproprates.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
This may or may not be useful for you, but I worked for ~three years for a mid-sized Canadian corporation with offices located in the US.
The honeymoon: After getting dot-bombed twice, I was brought in for an interview via a personal referral, and it seemed like a good fit. I told them I was a little jittery about the technology economy, and to describe how they were doing. The response was something along the lines of "We've been making a small but dependable profit every year for the past thirty-plus years." I started work the next week. While primarily Canadian-run, the inclusion of British and Australians in the management mix gave a bit more of a truly international feel to the organization. The place was eerily quiet and very businesslike, which was a welcome change from the Brownian-motion style US/.com management of the previous few years.
The serious relationship: They kept me busy on a number of good technology projects, but the risk-averse environment began to grate on me. The Canadian management was interested in the *idea* of new clients, but was so entrenched in the repeat-business-by-reputation model that they consistently failed to track new opportunities. Even really good and profitable ventures with low risk that landed in their laps tended to be neglected. For example, I spent quite a bit of effort on a business plan for expansion of an existing line of work, only to have it neglected rather than rejected outright. Still, there were interesting work opportunities, and we plodded along with them. I resisted slowing my personal pace of business and technical exploration, but eventually reached something of a tolerable balance.
The divorce: The US operation began to lose money, and a new manager was brought in to build business. Instead, the uber-conservative atmosphere stymied new ventures at a higher level than had affected me directly. Low/med risk down here in the US was perceived as high-risk north of the border. The new manager (a low-wattage guy who was long on vision and short on follow-thru) then just resorted to layoffs. Now, a decent US-ian approach might have been to face up to the numbers, lay off a bunch of people with a semi-reasonable severance, and be done with it. Instead, in the Canadian corporate atmosphere I knew, having to do a layoff was a point of shame (which it should be, since any layoff is a tacit admission of management failure). But instead of getting it over with, they drew it out, firing an average of 1% a week for a year, on a seemingly random basis. The last straw for me was an ill-timed complaint that I made about not receiving my allotted training budget for the past two years. I was shooed out the door, only to be brought back as a consultant within a week. I finished my work shortly thereafter, and bowed out as gracefully as I could.
Would I work for a Canadian company again? Maybe, but probably not. These few years seemed to combine all the worst features of risk-verse Canadians, tall-poppy-averse Australians, form-over-substance-obsessed British, and blinded-by-your-own-BS-management Americans. But it was tolerable, we made a little money, and the company is still in business and probably will be for some time to come. Based on my experience, I would say a medium-sized Canadian corporation might be nice place to park yourself if you want a quiet, staid environment for a few years. But be careful that you don't take root and slow down to a point that you can't re-enter the US or other fast-paced market in the future.
Jon
I think not...(*poof*)
does Canada value freedom and speech in all the same ways as the USA does?
I really feel I need to adress this misconception.
I was raised in the US, and moved to Europe in my teens. Before that, I pretty much had the same question.
What I soon learned: In the USA, these concepts are extremely hyped. Not that they're not important, but americans tend to think that these concepts somehow are unique to the USA, or unique in importance to Americans.
It's just not true. The whole western world has pretty much the same attitude on these issues.
(And this is one of the reasons of US-EU friction:Europeans, not hyping this stuff so much, are more aware that the difference is relatively small, I feel. So when Americans say stuff like this, they percieve it as an american "We're the only ones who truly understand freedom" attitude.)
The question is how you define 'freedom'? The right to bear arms? Some think this is an important freedom. Most people in the western world, do not. On the other hand, the USA has less freedoms in other ways. Scandinavians are proud that they have the freedom to enter the property of others. (not squatting in someone's front yard, of course, but say, taking a stroll in someone's forest)
You can't burn the flag in Italy. But some Americans want that too.
The political difference on the issue of fundamental freedoms varies no more between the US and other western democracies than it does within the US.
There is a major difference is that the USA has the approach of not changing laws, especially not the consititution, to ban things. Instead, things get handled through lawsuits. So in the USA, you may often have the 'freedom' to do something in the sense that it's not prohibited by law, but on the other hand, you'll get sued into oblivion.
>Tell me who got the better treatment.
Off-topic and feeding the trolls, but I don't care. I'm sick of this argument.
Two wrongs don't make a right.
Do unto others as you would have them do to you.
Geez. We learned this stuff in preschool.
And yes, I am an American. And I'm staying here to vote against the people who think like you.
Having lived in both places I'm at a loss to know how this got moded to a 5. Its more like a troll by American who just has no appreciation for the good parts of life in Canada. There is a lot less violent crime just for starters. The pubs are generally a lot friendlier, the beer is waaayyy better. If you live in Toronto and go to a pub is pretty easy to spot the American's over the border for the weekend because they tend towards rude, pushy and snotty.
You kind of know its a troll when you hit "In the United States healthcare is still affordable". You've obviously never spent any time in a American hospital without insurance. It will cost you at least $20K for a week for something not major. I'm doubting you've paid for your own insurance either. If your company's paying for most of it you might lack an appreciation for how much it costs and how fast the rates are going up, especially in states with serious malpractice litigation problems. I think everyone knows the cost of healthcare and drugs is spiraling out of control in the U.S. and its probably one of the biggest threats to U.S. global competitiveness since most countries have socialized healthcare to one degree or another and they don't have corporations draining the life out the economy. Sure healthcare in the U.S. is great if you are rich or have gold plated insurance, its OK if you have Medicare, but if you are among the 40 million uninsured you are one illness away from bankruptcy.
It is the truth you may hit a boss who is a dick in the the U.S. or Canada. I have had bosses who are dicks who are American, Canadian and Indian but my experience is the American bosses are way more likely to be dicks than the Canadians. The Candian engineers I've worked with have been on average far better to work with. There is substantially less back stabbing, and climbing over your coworker to get to the top than there is in the U.S.
As I said a few weeks ago, the U.S. has a problem with its culture, education, media, military/gun obsession that is tending to cultivate a people who have a real tendency to be arrogant and ignorant which is a dangerous combination. Its not a surprise to most of the world that Bush is the President since he is the poster boy for arrogant and ignorant.
@de_machina
Can't resist, sorry
> Now when is somebody going to apologize to us for
> killing 3000 people on September 11
What does Iraq have to do with this? None of the terrorist were Iraqis or had any contact with Iraq.
> or for burning and dismembering 4 US contract
> workers in Falluja, or cutting off this guys
head?
These are the work of terrorists, are you saying that the US should behave like terrorists? Can't you see that violence generates violence?
And you know what? There is no legitimate excuse for being unemployed for 2 years in the U.S. You can always find a job. You might not get to work in IT, or any thing else you find rewarding, but the jobs are out there.
For instance, in my working life, aside from IT work, I have:
Bagged groceries.
Worked in a yarn mill.
Worked in a carpet mill.
Delivered pizzas.
Driven a tractor-trailer.
Driven a garbage truck (including picking up the garbage from the back of the truck).
I didn't consider any of those jobs particularly rewarding, but they got the bills paid, and I would do them again if I had to.
Sorry, but I don't have much sympathy for folks who lie around unemployed because they are unwilling to take a job that is "below them".
Keep in mind the difference between saying "ratio of gun owners to to total population" versus "number of guns per person". Consider the case where you have five people, four of whom don't own a gun, but the fifth person owns four guns by himself. Then the guns per capita is 4/5, but the gun owners rate is only 1/5.
In the U.S. it's common for a gun owner to own multiple guns. This might be throwing off that number immensely if what you're actually interested in is seeing how common gun ownership is.
Don't label something "offtopic" unless you know the topic well enough to tell what's on topic.
I think one of the major points that Michael Moore was trying to get across, is that American's have more gun violence because of fear. Even though murders have been going down, reporting it has gone up. If you live in Canada, it's easy to detach, and say it's happening somewhere else, when watching american news, but it's probably harder for americans to do this i imagine. IANAA (i am not an american)
Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.