Library at Alexandria Discovered?

dustmote writes "According to the BBC, a Polish-Egyptian team believes they may have discovered the Library at Alexandria, including ancient lecture halls or auditoria, in the Bruchion region of the city. It's said by some that the burning of the library set civilization back as much as a thousand years."

Comments

Good thing..

[rylin]

Good thing it set us back 1000 years, otherwise SCO might actually have a case when it comes to "owning unix"

Proudly pulling random things into context. . .

Re:Good thing..

[SpaceLifeForm]

Good pull. Except it's not so much the "owning", but the burning of a more modern library, that library being the codebase of Linux that is under attack.

Oh neato!

[NanoGator]

It's kind of embarrasingly, really. They knew which building it was in for ages, but it took them years to figure out they just had to smash through the big Roman numeral 10 on the floor.

Re:Oh neato!

[Will2k_is_here]

they just had to smash through the big Roman numeral 10 on the floor.

:)

Troy had the same problem. Took us centuries to find it too. There's a lot of ancient mysteries yet to be rediscovered.

Re:Oh neato!

[Marillion]

What, In Soviet Poland they don't watch Indiana Jones movies?

Re:Oh neato!

[NanoGator]

"What, In Soviet Poland they don't watch Indiana Jones movies?"

They do, but it was translated a little different. The floor kept smacking Indy in the head.

Re:Oh neato!

[nocomment]

ya like the cuneiform tablet that refers to soddom. Cool stuff.

As for the library they should have had an offsite backup. Or maybe this is the reason we know that?

Re:Oh neato!

[Will2k_is_here]

As for the library they should have had an offsite backup.

The Romans ruled every piece of the World the "backup" would have been located. So no, a backup wouldn't have mattered. It's like storing Windows backups on another Windows box. They're both going to get wiped sooner or later.

Re:Oh neato!

[Ianoo]

In Soviet Poland, INDIANA JONES WATCHES YOU! Okay, mod me down. Someone had to do it.

Re:Oh neato!

[Anonymous Coward]

Idiot.

Re:Oh neato!

[Anonymous Coward]

10 never marks the spot!

Re:Oh neato!

[cornjchob]

Jerri Blank: What's that, Mr. Noblett?
Chuck Noblett, holding a large, clay phalus: This is a piece of exotic artwork I'm making for an exhibition about the lost city of Pompei.
Jerri: How was it lost?
Noblett: Nobody knows, Jerri--it was buried under volcanic ash, so all the records were destroyed.

mmm strangers with candy

X

[WTFmonkey]

X marks the spot!

Hey, someone had to ruin the joke.

wonder where we be with it.

[pvt_medic]

Imagine where our societies would be if it was still around...

I wonder if these same people could come up with a list of things that we could burn that would actually set us ahead.

Re:wonder where we be with it.

[zloof]

This might be another one of those Airplanes / Computers discussions. Had Computer ideas been patented the way they were, they would have developed faster, as with the Wright Bros. and other people using their basic idea as a jumpstart to technology.

So maybe it's more like this:
The Burning of Alexandria is to the Development of Technology, as licensing is to computing technology.

*whew* I'd hate to live at a time when machines controled my every move, from who and how I interact with people, to the work that I do, to the only thing I see all day.

Re:wonder where we be with it.

[eddy the lip]

Well, we tried, but we left the job half done when we couldn't find any good beer.

Kidding! We love our big lug of a brother to the south. ;)

Re:wonder where we be with it.

[Anonymous Coward]

While the burning of the Library of Alexandria set back science for 1000 years, the Catholic church set back science for another1000 years. Since the Library was burned down about 48 B.C.E., its amazing what only 52 years of science has gotten us (makes me wonder which Greek master first wrote the general theory of relativity)!

Re:wonder where we be with it.

[linzeal]

They have entire academic journals devoted to it but no one has burned enough appearently, but some have tried.

Re:wonder where we be with it.

[Lady Jazzica]

the Catholic church set back science for another1000 years

Without the Catholic Church, there would be no science today.

First, who was more interested in preserving the knowledge of the past, the Catholic Church or the barbarians who ruled Europe during the Middle Ages? Obviously, it was the Church. Without the Church, there wouldn't have been much writing at all in Europe. The first encyclopedia was compiled by St. Isidore of Seville. So if the loss of the Library of Alexandria set back science, the absence of the Catholic Church would have done the same thing.

Second, the whole philosophical basis of science derives from Catholic theology. Here's a quote from an article linked to in a recent Slashdot story:

"[T]o be a scientist you have to have two fundamental assumptions, so fundamental you don't even think about it. You assume that the universe makes sense, that there really is an objective reality; there really is a logic to this; it's not just chaos; there really are laws to be found. We're so used to that assumption, you don't realize it. A lot of cultures don't have that.

"And the other assumption you have to make is that it's worth doing. If your idea, if your religion is to meditate and rise above the physical universe, this corrupting physical universe, you might say, you're not going to be a scientist, you're not going to be interested in Mars. So it's a religious statement to say the physical universe is worth devoting my life to. [...]

"By religious I mean that it is based on certain fundamental assumptions you have about how the universe works and what your place in the universe is. And ultimately, that's a religious assumption. Whether it's my religion or somebody else's religion, lots of people with lots of religions are looking at science. I'm not saying it's only one religion that has that assumption. But I'm saying that there are religions that don't. There are brilliant cultures throughout history who have had fabulous mathematics and glorious ethical systems - and no science."

And lots of the early science was done by Catholic priests and monks. Another quote from the same article:

"The whole scientific enterprise really does coincide well with Christian theology. The whole idea that the universe is worth studying is a Christian idea. The whole mechanism for studying the physical universe comes straight out of the whole logic of the scholastic age. Who was the first geologist? Albert the Great, who was a monk. Who was the first Chemist? Roger Bacon, who was a monk. Who was the first guy to come up with spectroscopy? Angelo Secchi, who was a priest. Who was the guy who invented genetics? Gregor Mendel, who was a monk. Who was the guy who came up with the Big Bang theory? Georges Lemaître, who was a priest. There is this long tradition; most scientists before the 19th century were clerics."

Re:wonder where we be with it.

[McCarrum]

Okay.

I'm going to be gerenal here as my SPLUTTERING RAGE is making it hard to type.

The Catholic Church has done these things, and they were the major force in doing these things not because they're wonderful, all-singing, all-dancing modern thinkers. They did it because they wiped out their competition.

We would have vastly more and wider knowledge within collective civilisation if the Church (and not just the Church, true enough, but this is a response) did destroy modes of thinking that clashed with their own. From the crusaides to the witch-hunts.

Oh, one last point .. Arab doctors were busy doing medicine when Christian doctors were busing being butchers. Take your blinkers off. Look around you. And when you've recovered from that, look behind you to see the damage that was done to others in the Churches history.

Now if you'll excuse me, I have to go to the bathroom. On reading that previous comment, I have a bad taste in my mouth.

Re:wonder where we be with it.

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm going to be gerenal here as my SPLUTTERING RAGE is making it hard to type.

ATI fixed that Rage bug a while ago. Download the new drivers, and your Rage Pro won't ever splutter again.

God, that was a fucking lame joke.

Re:wonder where we be with it.

[Anonymous Coward]

*cough* *flamebait* *cough*

The crusades were political wars dressed in the robes of religion.

I would prefer men and women of science be in charge of science .. not any organisation which persecuted those who thought outside their sphere of enforced reality.

Now, who's bucking the evolution "concept" again?

Re:wonder where we be with it.

[Anonymous Coward]

The crusades were political wars dressed in the robes of religion.

I'm glad that can't happen today.

Re:wonder where we be with it.

[Lady Jazzica]

They did it because they wiped out their competition.

Well, most of the world wasn't Catholic, so they were free to develop science without any interference from the Church... Did they? No.

We would have vastly more and wider knowledge within collective civilisation if the Church (and not just the Church, true enough, but this is a response) did destroy modes of thinking that clashed with their own.

The point I was making was that science derives from the Catholic "mode of thinking". So a lack of Catholicism wouldn't have improved the situation.

From the crusaides

So you have a problem with the defense of Christian pilgrims who were being attacked by the Turks?

to the witch-hunts.

That was more of Protestant thing.

Arab doctors were busy doing medicine when Christian doctors were busing being butchers.

First, there wouldn't have been any such (Muslim) Arab doctors if there were no Catholic Church, since Islam is a Christian heresy (based on Arianism and Docetism, if I'm not mistaken).

Second, Muslim knowledge was based largely on what they got from the eastern Catholics they conquered in Asia Minor and the Middle East.

Re:wonder where we be with it.

[Vellmont]

Uhh.. it was the Arabs who preserved the knowledge of the ancient world through the dark ages. The Cathlolic church was too busy persecuting people like Galileo for finding truth to preserve much of anything.

As another poster pointed out, they were pretty much the only game in town. The Cathlic church hardly deserves credit for doing the little they did. Also, it's hardly the invention of Christianity to believe the world is understandable. The Cathlolics can't lay claim to that any more than we can.

Re:wonder where we be with it.

[ceejayoz]

*snort*

So you have a problem with the defense of Christian pilgrims who were being attacked by the Turks?

Now I know you're trolling.

Re:wonder where we be with it.

[Anonymous Coward]

I have a bad taste in my mouth.

Hey, I told you I was getting close.

Re:wonder where we be with it.

[arkane1234]

The crusades were political wars dressed in the robes of religion.

I'm glad that can't happen today.

Nah, today is more like soviet russia.

In soviet russia, religious wars are dressed in robes of politics.

Re:wonder where we be with it.

[superyooser]

the Catholic church set back science for another 1000 years

Did you miss /. this? Read what a Vatican astronomer has to say about that.

Re:wonder where we be with it.

[pyrrhonist]

to the witch-hunts.

That was more of Protestant thing.

The Catholic church was burning witches long before Protestants even existed.

In fact, one of the charges brought against Joan of Arc in 1431 was witchcraft. This was before the Protestant reformation.

Re: wonder where we be with it.

[Black Parrot]

> The crusades were political wars dressed in the robes of religion.

One theory is that the Crusades were a plan to get all the European males suffering from "testosterone poisoning" to go fight somewhere else instead of staying home and fighting each other.

Re:wonder where we be with it.

[rempelos]

Well, most of the world wasn't Catholic, so they were free to develop science without any interference from the Church... Did they? No.

Well, the first christian Roman emperors (way before the separation of the Church to Catholic and Orthodox, when the roman empire was practically the whole world), closed the University of Athens and suppressed any ideas of that time that would question the beliefs of their religion (and not just in greece but in alexandria too). Just to mention that greek philoshophers and mathematicians had formulated theories about material, earth and space that are very close to todays most accepted theories. Plus that they had developed science of medicine, had compute the perimeter of the earth etc.

The point I was making was that science derives from the Catholic "mode of thinking". So a lack of Catholicism wouldn't have improved the situation.

When Catholism was created, the world was already towards dark ages. The way that the christians were enforcing their beliefs is to take the blame for that. And... oh, yes, it would

So you have a problem with the defense of Christian pilgrims who were being attacked by the Turks?

Read your history books again. The crusaides were made to recapture the holy lands and in the mean time butcher, loot and impose their religion.

First, there wouldn't have been any such (Muslim) Arab doctors if there were no Catholic Church, since Islam is a Christian heresy (based on Arianism and Docetism, if I'm not mistaken).

You are mistaken. Islam is not straightly related to christianity, maybe Mohammed borrowed things from christians or jesus but it didn't have any relation with what christianity had evolved to in Europe

Re:wonder where we be with it.

[Anonymous Coward]

Go drink some milk, or have a Martini, or
something. If you want to find someone to hate
and demonize and blame for the evils of the
world, it's all too easy. There are plenty of
myths that can help you blame the Catholic
Church, or the Jews, or the Muslims, or
blacks, or any other group you arbitrarily
decide to go into a sputtering rage about.

A prime example is the myth that crazed
Christian fanatics destroyed the library. That
story has about as much historical credibility
as the Bible.

The fact is, it's pretty hard to make a sound
case that the Christians held back science or
civilization. The Greek scholars went into
decline centuries before Christianity even
existed, and continued without much interference
from the Church. If anything, the Muslim
conquests were more disruptive than any action of
the Church I'm aware of.

Making sense of the contribution of the Church
to civilization is a very complex business.

As for "Arab doctors ... Christian ... butchers,"
yeah, yeah, yeah.

I had a black friend once who was fond of
saying, "The Chinese were inventing civilization
when our ancestors were still running around in
grass skirts." He liked to clump Africa and
Europe together like that. He was a good guy,
but like everyone he had his faults, and he
was a little too obvious about his bitterness.
The fact is, the Chinese did not invent
civilization and don't have a particularly ancient
civilization compared to Europeans. Nor do the
Arabs make Christians look like butchers.
Why don't you go read up a little about exactly
what the Arabs did and what the Europeans and
Christians did. You might stop hating people
if you knew a little more.

Re:wonder where we be with it.

[Anonymous Coward]

The fact is, it's pretty hard to make a sound case that the Christians held back science or civilization.

Really? Why don't you try telling that to Bruno, Copernicus or Galileo? How many heretics did the church burn at the stake? How long did they try to suppress the heliocentric theory of the universe?

This is pretty much an open-and-shut case.

Re:wonder where we be with it.

[MoeDrippins]

hrm, the arabs? What did they then DO with all that wonderful knowledge? Sure didn't carry it to modern day, by most accounts.

Don't discount the Irish in the saving of civilization. Can't say if that's true, but you know, all generalizations are false anyway.

Re:wonder where we be with it.

[Vellmont]

Yah, the Arabs had something good going and screwed it all up. I don't know how or why, but that's what happened.

Re:wonder where we be with it.

[kbahey]

Well, I am glad that others raised the Arab and Muslim parts. As much as I like that though, I have to respond to them and to you.

You raise a valid point, but you confuse the timeline, and over generalize. I think that modding you as a troll is a bit too much though.

Perhaps they were more liberal, tolerant or progressive at the time of St. Isidore (that was 6th or 7th century or so?)

However, the Catholic Church became corrupt, aggressive and oppressive at the turn of the millenium. At that time they started the Crusades in the name of God.

At the time of the Rennaissance they became antagonistic to science, since it challenged their authority.

During the 16 century it became more so, It was then when they clashed with Galileo, and instated the Inquisition.

At the same time corruption was so rampant, that Luther had to publish his 95 articles in protest of the selling of indulgences.

Check about Bruno and Savonarola sometime too.

That period was indeed bad, and they did indeed sort of recant their errors during the 19th and 20th century.

Re:wonder where we be with it.

[Anonymous Coward]

and why did these three individuals exist in Europe and not in Araby? Maybe having the mentality the Christian relgion (not being a synonom with the Catholic Church) instilled in them made them look to search and explore the universe. Very little of this has happened in Islamic society by comparison.

Re:wonder where we be with it.

[Anonymous Coward]

Uhh.. it was the Arabs who preserved the knowledge of the ancient world through the dark ages.

This is a common myth old chap. The renassance was sparked in Europe by the fall of The Eastern Roman Empire in 1453 to the Turks. All the scholars left for Italy. Funny that.

Re:wonder where we be with it.

[Anonymous Coward]

Pope Urban VIII was his long time friend and sponsor. He was encouraged to write what would become the Dialog on the Two World Systems. He was cautioned that he could state his theory, but not claim it as established fact, as it was improvable at the time. So naturally he claimed the helio-centric view as established fact (despite the fact that he could not explain several contradictory effects, such as the lack of parallax in the stars as the Earth orbits the Sun), and having the character Simplicio (the simpleton) express some of Urban's private discussions with Galileo.

The helio-centric view was actually invented by Nicolas Copernicus (a Catholic Priest)in De Revolutionibus Orbium Caelestium. Galileo merely borrowed the credit.
raged to write what would become the Dialog on the Two World Systems. He was cautioned that he could state his theory, but not claim it as established fact, as it was unprovable at the time. So naturally he claimed the helio-centric view as established fact (despite the fact that he could not explain several contradictory effects, such as the lack of paralax in the stars as the Earth orbits the Sun), and having the character Simplicio (the simpleton) express some of Urbans private discussions with Galileo.

The helio-centric view was actually invented by Nicolas Copernicus (a Catholic Priest)in De Revolutionibus Orbium Caelestium. Galileo merely borrowed the credit.

Re:wonder where we be with it.

[Anonymous Coward]

50,000 people were killed during the witch hunts. Most were killed in protestant Germany and England (King James was a strong advocate of purging England of witches).

Re:wonder where we be with it.

[Anonymous Coward]

"Read your history books again. The crusaides were made to recapture the holy lands and in the mean time butcher, loot and impose their religion."

I suggest you read better history books than the ones you claim to have read. The original poster is correct - the Muslims had invaded the Holy Lands by force, converted the locals at sword point, killed those that regressed to their old ways, confiscated the pilgrimage sites sacred to Christians and Jews (intolerable in the ancient world), built Muslim temples on the sites of Christian Churchs and shrines, and persecuted Christian pilgrims. The Crusades were launched to restore the right of pilgrimage and protect the Holy sites of Jerusalem.

Re:wonder where we be with it.

[Anonymous Coward]

You can't accuse one group of being the only group that killed witches when the reality is that both groups killed witches. One group is not better than the other, when both are guilty of the same crime. Claiming that killing witches, "was more of so-and-so's thing", is completely ridiculous and untrue.

Re:wonder where we be with it.

[rempelos]

The original poster is correct - the Muslims had invaded the Holy Lands by force

I did said recapture.

Europe foresaw the danger coming from the east and acted. The holyness given to this war was just an excuse to recruit soldiers (else nobody would fight outside europe, people didn't give shit for what was happening thousands of miles away). The crusades made use of sword in their way even in places that were still christian, mostly looting to sustain supplies for their troops (they were anything but gentle).

The Crusades were used by politic interests, in the Fourth Crusade French and Venetians captured Constantinople (today known as Instanbul) practicly destroying temporarly the Byzantine Empire (which was christian) and gave the Turks the chance to conquer even more land.

The Crusades were launched to restore the right of pilgrimage and protect the Holy sites of Jerusalem.

Your history knowledge seems to be highschool based. Don't be that naive, there is no war that's made for holy or justice purpose. Everything is done for power and money, look what is happening in Iraq and Afganistan, this is just another Crusade.

Re:wonder where we be with it.

[Anonymous Coward]

Huh.

The library(ies) at Alexandria have been burned a number of times inadvertently. The final burning or dismantling was ordered by the Caliph of Baghdad in the 600s, because the codices and scrolls "either contradicted the Quran and are heresy, or affirmed it and are superfluous."

I think that the burnings in the 300s had more to do with the character and volatility of the Alexandrine people, long known before and after these times for their tendency to riot, than to the character of Catholics or Monophysites.

The source blaming Muslims comes a few centuries afterwards and is anti-Muslim; the source blaming Christians comes more than a millenium later, and is anti-Christian. So infer whatever bias you want on it.

Re:wonder where we be with it.

[Anonymous Coward]

Uhh.. it was the Arabs who preserved the knowledge of the ancient world through the dark ages. The Cathlolic church was too busy persecuting people like Galileo for finding truth to preserve much of anything.

Firstly, the dark ages in which the Arabs were preservers and Galileo's period lie about one thousand years apart, so comparing the two situations is necessarily specious.

Secondly, it was the Caliph of Baghdad, a Muslim, who had the Library of Alexandria "preserved" to the ground in 641, not the Christian (monophysite?) caretakers of the library.

My new favorite word:

[heinousjay]

auditoria

backups!

[orn]

It's said by some that the burning of the library set civilization back as much as a thousand years.

Which just goes to show the importance of doing your back-ups!

Re:backups!

[LesFerg]

Actually they have backups, only nobody has the software to access them anymore, its in Word-the-Prequel.

More on the Mouseion

[DrSkwid]

Carl Sagan did some work on the
ancient Library of Alexandria, the Mouseion, for his TV series Cosmos.

Overheard in ancient Alexandria...

[Spoing]

1. PHB in toga:
2. No, Akmed...we can't justify the cost of off-site backups. It's just too expensive!

Afterwards, PHB got a raise for keeping it "reasonably" under budget. Imagine the loss if both copies were destroyed!!!

Who knows?

[exp(pi*sqrt(163))]

It's said by some that the burning of the library set civilization back as much as a thousand years

Who knows? Maybe there was a book in there that might have been as detrimental to civilization as the Bible and by burning it we've been saved.

Re:Who knows?

[gd2shoe]

Detrimental? The Bible? What was detrimental wasn't the Bible, or God; but religious impostors claiming divine authority while doing works of evil. Sure they often claimed the Bible as their source of authority. That doesn't mean that the Bible made them do it. Today, this has put a sour taste in everyones mouth.

Please don't troll, many of us don't like it.

The lesson stands: Don't believe or do something just because your ecclesiastical leader tells you to. Read and understand your own religious books. Pray to God (Christian or not). Then decide if a teaching is good.

A thousand years?

[Jeremiah Cornelius]

If we hadn't lost that thousand years of Civilization, just think of where Moore's law would have taken processor speeds by now!

julius caesar?

[maunleon]

I thought it was destroyed by Omar (Caliph of Baghdad) in 640-someting AD. Julius Caesar would've taken his shot way earlier (47BC) and then by anoher Christian dude.. But if it was destroyed by Omar in 640s it means it was still around to destroy.

Maybe I'm wrong? Or maybe it's politically correct to blame it on the romans. ;)

Re:julius caesar?

[Anonymous Coward]

It was burned by the catholics because it contained knowledge that contridicted their teachings, like the earth is round and orbits the sun. We studied it in my history of math course...we talked about the contributions various civilizations made to math. The Catholics contribution was burning the library and setting the world back 1000 years.

Read the Da Vinci Code. The book is fiction, but it does have some facts, including the truth about the formation of the catholic church.

Re:julius caesar?

[Anonymous Coward]

Sounds handy, but the library WAS burned three times: once by Romans, once by Christians, and once by Muslims.

Maybe your history of math course should focus on math.

Re:julius caesar?

[LittleBigLui]

once by Romans, once by Christians, and once by Muslims.

Wow. Rebuild it and have the Jews, Buddhists and Hindus burn it, too. For great just^w^w good measure.

Re:julius caesar?

[Anonymous Coward]

Who people accuse of destroying the library has
a lot more to do with the accusers' own
prejudices than those of the supposed
perpetrators. There is very little reliable
evidence about the history of the library and its
destruction.

There are some popular myths about crazed mobs of
Christians burning the library, or fanatical
Muslims. People with an axe to grind love to
repeat these to demonize the religions they
hate, but the fact is that these stories are
as mythical than anything you can find in the
Bible or the Koran, and they're likely based
on hatred rather than any sort of enlightenment.

As for Caesar, the only thing that's clear is
that he had no intention of burning the library.
One version (there are many) of the Caesar
story which is recounted in a popular History
of Mathematics (by Kline) is as follows. In
supporting Cleopatra in a conflict he set
the ships of her enemies on fire. The fire
spread to the city and damaged the library.
To help restore the library, Caesar bought a
large collection (200,000) of books and donated
it to Cleopatra.

So, if you want to hate Christians or Muslims
or Romans, there are plenty of myths about the
library at Alexandria to help you demonize
your nemesis. Just don't fool yourself into
believing that you're superior to those you hate.

Re:julius caesar?

[kbahey]

I thought it was destroyed by Omar (Caliph of Baghdad) in 640-someting AD.

Omar was not the Caliph of Baghdad, and never even set foot in it. He was Caliph of the Muslims at the time, and Baghdad was not build yet, nor was the seat of power transferred to it yet (this was more than a century after he died. Omar lived in Medina in the western Hijaz region of Arabia. He travelled to Jerusalem to receive the city from the Byzantines though

Julius Caesar would've taken his shot way earlier (47BC) and then by anoher Christian dude.. But if it was destroyed by Omar in 640s it means it was still around to destroy.

The story of Arabs burning the library is apocryphal. It was burned twice before them. See the links in my other post

Poland is not soviet any more

[rekrutacja]

In fact Poland is most loyal US ally in Iraq (which is nothing to be especially proud of)

Re:Poland is not soviet any more

[Creosote]

Rektrutacja--I think the "Soviet Poland" phrase was not meant seriously, but as a humorous echo of the "Soviet Russia" jokes popularized by Russian emigré Yakov Smirnoff. (The whole premise of Smirnoff's career as a comedian in the USA was more or less undermined when the USSR broke apart.)

Re:Poland is not soviet any more

[Anonymous Coward]

Russia isn't Soviet anymore either, but that won't stop the jokes.

Re:Poland is not soviet any more

[Marillion]

As Creosote pointed out, it was as a farcical remark in reference to all of the Soviet Russia remarks that decrease the signal-to-noise ratio in Slashdot.

The Big X on the floor is a reference to a scene in an Indiana Jones movie that came out in 1989. Poland was still clinging onto the soviet system. (more likely the other way round?) Lech Walesa wasn't elected President of the Republic of Poland until December of 1990.

I absolutely agree that being a US ally isn't something to be proud of.

Why would that have mattered?

[Eevee]

It's not as if the Romans were on some strange bookburning spree. The library was accidental damage from the attack on the city--given the chance, Caeser would have picked up all the goodies as additional loot.

Re:Why would that have mattered?

[Will2k_is_here]

"Accidental"?
This kind of stuff happened many times throughout history. Conquering civ's tried to erase the history of the conquered by destroying it's traces and replacing history to begin with the conquerors.

It wasn't about burning books, it was about destroying inferior history.

Re:Why would that have mattered?

[arkane1234]

Ownership denotes an apostrophe.

"Sharon's book was good."

Check out a good tutorial on apostrophe usage:

http://www.mccc.edu/students/tutoring/apostrophe .h tml

Re:Why would that have mattered?

[arkane1234]

Except in a personal pronoun. I stand corrected.
Learn something new everyday it seems.

Re:Why would that have mattered?

[Anonymous Coward]

It wasn't about burning books, it was about destroying inferior history.

But most of the books at Alexandria were products of Greek culture, i.e. the civilisation the Romans were busy basing their own on, and recognised as superior to their own in every respect but military prowess, not Egyptian culture.

The Romans didn't want to destroy it. If it had survived, they would have claimed it as their own, not denounced it as worthless Egyptian trash.

Re:Why would that have mattered?

[Skjellifetti]

Except in this case it probably was accidental. Caeser got into a major fight in Alexandria and the docks where much of the library material was stored caught fire. Here is one scholars attempt to uncover who was guilty of destroying the library.

Although you are right that many conquerers did deliberately destroy the writings of the conquered (e.g. the Spanish in Mesoamerica), I suspect that more often such libraries were destroyed because the conquerers didn't know or care what a library was (e.g. the Mongol destruction of Baghdad's library or, more recently, Rumsfeld's neglect in Baghdad -- I wonder what librarian Laura Bush thought about the untidiness of U.S. forces standing by while an ancient library burned?).

At last!

[AtariAmarok]

At last! They have found it! I have a few overdue books at the place I've been meaning to return. Not looking forward to the fine, though.

Other Great Ancient Libraries

[angst_ridden_hipster]

There was a great library at Pergamum. It was a competitor to Alexandria, and may have had around 200,000 volumes. Supposedly, the contents of the library at Pergamum were given as a gift to Cleopatra by Mark Antony. I'm not sure where this was chronologically with respect to the destruction of the library at Alexandria.

Then, even before, there was King Assurbanipal of Assyria, who in 650 BC created a great library. He had copies made of thousands of years worth of Sumerian tablets. In fact, it's unlikely we'd have even a tiny fraction of the surviving Sumerian information if he hadn't done that. His library had 22,000 volumes (clay tablets). I don't know what number of those are still extant and intact.

That's why I back up all my CDROMs onto clay tablets. As the marketroids tell me, it's a robust archival medium for assuring SOHO data persistence!

Likely to have been late 4th-century

[waterbear]

A substantial body of opinion dates the major destruction of the Alexandrian library/museum to the late 4th century AD, i.e. a time when Christians were in charge and very concerned to discourage pagan things, which included the learning of the ancients ........

It is also worth remembering that much of what did survive out of the destruction of classical learning was eventually preserved and re-transmitted to a deeply ignorant and religiously hidebound Europe several hundred years later through the hands of the relatively liberal and learned muslim arabs ...

-wb-

Re:Likely to have been late 4th-century

[exp(pi*sqrt(163))]

Yup. This is a half decent book on the subject I read a few years back. The $64,000,000 question is of course "who burned it down?"

Re:Likely to have been late 4th-century

[dasunt]

A substantial body of opinion dates the major destruction of the Alexandrian library/museum to the late 4th century AD, i.e. a time when Christians were in charge and very concerned to discourage pagan things, which included the learning of the ancients ........

Your knowledge of history is lax. The Catholic Church (as opposed to, say, the Ethiopian Church) had basically embodied the "science" of a certain group of ancients -- the Greeks.

By the time Galileo, et al, got around to challenging the Greek philosophies, the Catholic Church had adopted it as its own.

If you care to crack open a modern history book and look at some research, the "dark" ages weren't as dark as we once believed -- there was development, there were technological advances. Greek and Roman knowledge was being rediscovered, and new technologies were being adopted.

Re:Likely to have been late 4th-century

[Anonymous Coward]

If you care to crack open a modern history book and look at some research, the "dark" ages weren't as dark as we once believed -- there was development, there were technological advances.

For example, one of the new European inventions during the "dark ages" was the thing we now call the "book". As in, writing on bound pages instead of on a scroll.

Other ideas invented at the same time include "punctuation", "letter case", and "spaces between words", which make it a heck of a lot easier to be literate.

Re:Likely to have been late 4th-century

[dublin]

It is also worth remembering that much of what did survive out of the destruction of classical learning was eventually preserved and re-transmitted to a deeply ignorant and religiously hidebound Europe several hundred years later through the hands of the relatively liberal and learned muslim arabs...

Your bigotry is showing.

There is no doubt that learning was lost after the fall of Rome. Knowledge was preserved through intervening centuries in several unlikely places far afield. Before you blast the Christians for this, perhaps you should know that much of the ancient knowledge that was saved was in fact preserved by the chirch itself. This included much from Arab and other eastern sources that was lost even in the east when the far-from-civilized Mohammedans deliberately destroyed anything they judged heretical, which by definition is pretty much anything other than the Koran and the Hadith.)

You might want to read How the Irish Saved Civilization to get an understanding of how the church in Irelend was actually instrumental in maintaining a library of this information through the turbulent times of the incorrectly-named "dark ages", and then re-seeding that information throughout Europe. A good book, worth a read...

You're a moron

[Anonymous Coward]

That's it. This is just filler so /. will be happy.

For the rest of time

[Anonymous Coward]

Every culture and civilization has a moment of shame that will soil their memory for the rest of time. The erradication of the natives in the USA, holocaust by the Germans, the Algerian war of independence by the French, the Armenian holocaust by the Turkish.... and among them we have the burning of the library of Alexandria by the Muslim invaders.

Re:For the rest of time

[exp(pi*sqrt(163))]

"The only book we need is the Koran, burn the rest!" Except for one thing, the evidence that the library of Alexandria was burned down my Muslims is slender and in fact Muslims preserved the literature of the ancient world that early Christians had lost or even tried to suppress.

Re:For the rest of time

[nastyphil]

"evidence that the library of Alexandria was burned down my Muslims is slender and in fact Muslims preserved the literature of the ancient world"

Especially true given that islam didn't exist when the library is thought to have been destroyed!

Re:For the rest of time

[Aardpig]

and among them we have the burning of the library of Alexandria by the Muslim invaders.

Erm, Muhammad was born in 570 AD. For it to have happened as you claim, he would have had to have gone back in time to before the birth of Christ, founded a new religion, and then compelled his new followers to burn down the library. Occam's razor suggest instead that you're talking out of your arse.

While we're on this note, let's not forget the contributions made to Mathematics and Science, over the centuries, by countless Muslims. To name but one: Al Khwarizmi, from whose name we get the word 'algorithm', and from whose work on mathematics (Hisab al-jabr wa al-muqabala) we get the word 'algebra'. Tell me, AC, what have you contributed?

Re:For the rest of time

[Anonymous Coward]

Muslim societies were a source of enlightment until sometime around the renaissance.

Since then they seem hell bent on devolving back to the stone age. Have a look af the fundamentalists in Pakistan, Algeria, Afghanistan, Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Egypt and Turkey.

Re:For the rest of time

[Anonymous Coward]

The legend of the destruction of the library by
Muslims blames invaders in the 7th century.
There's no doubt there was such an invasion.
What's very doubtful is whether they destroyed the
library.

As for contributions to Mathematics and Science
by "countless Muslims," I think that's a bit of
an exaggeration. It's fashionable in some circles
to exalt this or that civilization at the
expense of the Europeans. The Muslims deserve
some credit, but I wouldn't go overboard.
The Muslims were tolerant in some places, but
destroyed intellectual communities in others.
The majority of scholars in the Muslim empires
were actually non-Muslims. They were tolerated,
but many were not happy.

As for Al Khwarizmi, his most lasting
contribution to mathematics is surely the two
words you cite. He treated some quadratic
equations, but the basic quadratic equation
was already known to the Babylonians thousands
of years earlier. He could not solve the
cubic. The Italians were the first to solve
cubic and fourth degree equations.

The Greeks, building on contributions of
Babylonians and Egyptians, made phenomenal
contributions of mathematics. The Europeans
began to make progress again in mathematics in
the second millenium. Over the past 1000 years,
they've contributed many times over to science and
mathematics the contributions of the entire rest
of the world. The Europeans have outrun, by a
very wide distance, the rest of the world in
almost every aspect of civilization.

Re:For the rest of time

[exp(pi*sqrt(163))]

Actually, one of the popular theories was that the library was burned down by Caliph Omar around 640AD. The modern verdict is that this is probably just Christian propaganda. See here for more info.

Re:For the rest of time

[Anonymous Coward]

Here's another one talking out of his arse. Don't you know that this is a game played by the western world for so many centuries? This worked for them, as in their version of history, they did not have to give any credit whatsoever to the Eastern world. Everything that was worthwile was allegedly done by the Greeks, so why bother?

Most of the stuff the Greeks had "invented" came from Egypt and the Egytians took many of them from Sumerians. Talking about tolerance, do you know that Pythagoras got one of his students killed because he came up with irrational numbers that spoiled his theory. Not to mention that this mathematical stuff was considered to be great secrets and would only be taught within a religious sect on the condition that this would not be told to outsiders. Tolerance for you!

Here's a couple of books for you to read, learn and think (this is the hardest part, but maybe these books could make a miniscule dent in your thick skull and bring some light in):

1.Kramer, Samuel Noah. History Begins at Sumer, Thirthy-Nine Firsts in Man's Recorded History

2.Bernal, Martin. Black Athena

You're claiming that the Europeans have "outrun" the rest of the world in "almost every aspect" of civilization. Let's see...

1.First of all, there's IMPERIALISM & COLONIALISM.
I don't have to tell you the consequences. The Incas and many other great civilizations have been destroyed by the Europeans. Quite an accomplishment, isn't it? The Indians nearly had it, but thanks to Gandhi and to your demise, they're still alive. I don't think I have to tell you about Africa and genocides supported by Europeans (Ruanda?) in the 20th century. Something to be proud of, eh?

2.NOT JUST ONE, BUT TWO WORLD WARS STARTED IN EUROPE. I leave it to you to count the number of dead people and the destruction that came with it.
Clearly, the Europeans had turned massacring people from an "art" to a "science". They definitely had the best slaughterhouses for people. Look at those beautiful gas chambers, crematoriums, vivisection rooms. They're all great
examples of "European contributions to civilization".

I am not denying that Europeans have done some clever stuff in the last centuries. But this does not require you (or them) to overlook the contributions made by so many other people from other places that came before them. In short, it's that simple: GIVE CREDIT WHERE IT'S DUE !

Books to burn

[bluGill]

"Great illustrated classics" Burn them all. They got the names of great classics, but they are simplified versions that ruin the whole point. Read the real book, or sit in your cave ignorant, either one is better than something from that series. I'm glad I had already read real versions before I started adding them to my library (hey they are cheap, and I didn't have them...) or I might not have recognized it.

Address of Alexandria library

[rossdee]

A quick google found the library in Alexandria

Douglas County Public Library
720 Fillmore St
Alexandria, MN 56308
(320) 762-3014

Thats about 50 miles from where I live.

awesome

[syrinx]

We'll be able to get any technology discovered by other civilizations now.

We need more burning.

[Bob Cat - NYMPHS]

Except for a few volumes on geometry, the library likely contained masses of CRAP about gods, goddesses, thaumaturgy, alchemy, inaccurate histories, &c.

Sure, it would be fun and possibly enlightening to read that stuff, but it wouldn't help you cure leprosy. The ancients were IGNORANT, and you should only prize info that has been confirmed by science (something they did not have).

Re:We need more burning.

[Anonymous Coward]

Except for a few volumes on geometry, the library likely contained masses of CRAP about gods, goddesses, thaumaturgy, alchemy, inaccurate histories, &c.

You're missing the point. The people who regret the burning argue that all that nonsense being burned just meant that people had to waste hundreds of years thinking it up and writing it all down again again before they could move on to more scientific matters: if the library hadn't been burned, people would have got on with "important" things much sooner.

My only question...

[ndogg]

Why isn't this on the front page? This is by far a lot more important than much of the dribble that gets posted to the front page, and yet it's relegated to just the Science section.

What about the Vatican Library

[Teancum]

Of all of the modern and current libraries that are around, the Vatican Library (yes, the Pope's own book stack) is probabally the most comprehensive collection of medeval and ancient texts that is in existance. For more technical volumes there are other places that are more extensive, but if you are trying to study history or philosophy, this is the place to go.

To suggest that Christians deliberately burn books simply to hide knowledge is totally wrong. That from time to time bullheaded idiots sometimes get control of ecclesiastical authority and abuse that same political and spiritual power to evil ends is not disputed. This happens in most religions (including atheism) or even political movements. (This is in response to the grandpartent article. I agree with you dasunt.)

The problem that happened at Alexandria, and what caused the "Dark Ages" was a total breakdown of the political & social framework of Europe due to the collapse of the Roman Empire. It didn't burn down earlier simply because the Roman Legions would have massacred anybody that tried to challenge Roman authority. By 400 A.D. the Roman government had all but stopped existing in any form, and the citizens of Rome itself were fighting off invaders into the city itself from the Vandals, Goths, and other germanic tribes that routinely sacked Rome for what was left of wealth from being an imperial capital. This was almost like the "Mad Max" movies by Mel Gibson in terms of a total lack of control by governments, except in silly irrelavent symbolism that doesn't keep my neighbor from raping my wife and killing my kids.

Sshh!!

[Anonymous Coward]

"a Polish Egyptian team believes they may have discovered the Library at Alexandria..." wherein they were promptly shushed by the librarian and fined millions in late fees.

Article sparse with info

[Lars Arvestad]

I am a bit disappointed with the article since it doesn't provide much information on how they found the site and what makes them think it is the library. I mean, how can they know it is not the largest stable found so far...? How can an archeological finding be presented without pictures in this day and age?

Maybe I am too eager, but does anyone know what conference this was presented at and/or if the archeological team has a webpage? I see that Zahi Hawass has a webpage, but, being a "president of Egypt's Supreme Council of Antiquities", he may not be the actual researcher behind the finding.

Christians burning books

[sadiklis]

To suggest that Christians deliberately burn books simply to hide knowledge is totally wrong.

I haven't done any serious research but that much i can point out:

• They've been burning scientists and their books (inquisition).
• They've been encouraging destruction of the "savage" culture during the colonisation of the New World.
• They just can resist burning Harry Potter.
• If they could just get their hands on they would be happy to burn writings on stem cell research or genetic engineering.

Having said that i guess it's a pretty realistic hypothesis that library of Alexandria could have been burnt by christians (burning pre-christian pagan writings must have been a natural idea for them).

The problem that happened at Alexandria, and what caused the "Dark Ages" was a total breakdown of the political & social framework of Europe due to the collapse of the Roman Empire.

Yes. But it's church that prolonged the agony. The dismissal of the church bullshit and replacment of it with a secular knowledge [re]imported from the Arab wold is the definition of the Renaissance, isn't it?

Re:Christians burning books

[Teancum]

While I would agree that the church did do some B.S. that I'm not happy with, but it really wasn't all that different than what other political leaders at the same time period also did.

Often the church was a major political force (England's House of Lords still has member of the clergy holding seats recognising this political authority) throughout Europe during the previous two mellenia. They would even hold territory that would be under the exclusive use of the church (as much as counties or duchies). In this regard the title of "prince of religion" has even more meaning and litteral justification. Fights between secular and religious factions were very common, just not among peasants who couldn't do anything without approval of at least the manor lord.

If the church held people back with thought and ideas, it was because the secular leaders at the time also wanted to hold people back in thought and ideas as well. It wouldn't have mattered if it were Christian, Muslim, or Norse polytheism, the religion really didn't matter. That Islam seemed to show more respect for personal rights and scientific thought at the time than Christian regions (about 1000 A.D.) is more a reflection of the political leaders at the time.

One of the incredible things about people coming to America, especially in the British part of North America, was that religion was finally seperated from political authority, if for no other reason than people coming from so many places in Europe that no single religion really could get into a dominating position (with only very localized exceptions to this rule.)

I'd also like to point out that the modern concept of a University and scientific thought is an outgrowth of Christian thought and philosophies dating from the middle ages. Somebody finally realized that if you wanted to really understand the words that Jesus was saying on the Mount of Olives, you needed to understand the context of the words he was speaking, and that also meant that you had to read other texts and information that was contemporary with the literature of the New Testament. Burning those books would mean that you wouldn't be able to understand the words of God.

As for modern example of religious bigots trying to supress ideas they don't comprehend (like Harry Potter or genetic research), it is just ignorant people who are choosing to stay ignorant. I have no emotion other than pity at the moment for people like that, because trying to supress knowledge only spreads it further. Just see what happened with deCSS. Harry Potter is even more popular because of the book burning, with the author and publisher laughing all the way to the bank.

Re:Christians burning books

[sadiklis]

One of the incredible things about people coming to America...

I'll just remind you that in America, and elsewhere, crusaders have been trying to eliminate non-christian cultures (their written works included).

I'd also like to point out that the modern concept of a University and scientific thought is an outgrowth of Christian thought and philosophies dating from the middle ages.

You must be a Minister of Information of the Vatican? Secular schooling hint for Europe was given by Arab universities. Giving a credit for this (Renaissance) to the christian church is just a pure lie.

As for modern example of religious bigots trying to supress ideas they don't comprehend ... trying to supress knowledge only spreads it further ... Harry Potter is even more popular because of the book burning, with the author and publisher laughing all the way to the bank.

Well. Harry poter example was of course a joke. And of course it's impossible to destroy a written work these days because of the printing presses and ubiquitous literacy (you just can't destroy ALL the copies these days). Back in the day, however, situation was totally different: just get a scientist, all his manuscripts, throw to a fire, and you are done. No one was "laughing all the way to the bank" when the Library of Alexandria was on fire, because those were the unique copies of the works.

Re:Christians burning books

[Teancum]

I'll just remind you that in America, and elsewhere, crusaders have been trying to eliminate non-christian cultures (their written works included).

I think you miss the point. New environments and new experiences forced the idea of religious tolerance to happen in America. If you want to talk about religious intolerance, all you have to do is look at a typical Islamic country right now. In Saudi Arabia and several other countries in that region of the world, it is still the death penalty to convert to any religion besides Islam. (Converts to Islam are always welcome :) Mohammad himself forced religious conversion at the point of a sword. I never heard of that with Jesus... it is totally against any of his teachings.

You must be a Minister of Information of the Vatican? Secular schooling hint for Europe was given by Arab universities. Giving a credit for this (Renaissance) to the christian church is just a pure lie.

I take that with a compliment (about being a Vatican minister). This is not a lie, because the current incarnation of a University (with graduation robes and all of the pomp & circumstance, department organization, etc.) is a classical medeval institution. Yeah, I am more than willing to admit that Muslim scholarship (primarily from the Moors, not Arabs) contributed, but you are also seemingly discounting the scholarship that took place in Ireland and a lesser degree throughout most of "Christian" Europe as well, and much of this was based at religious institutions, but not always. Ideas and concepts went in both directions.

Back in the day, however, situation was totally different: just get a scientist, all his manuscripts, throw to a fire, and you are done. No one was "laughing all the way to the bank" when the Library of Alexandria was on fire, because those were the unique copies of the works.

Yes, there were unique copies of some manuscripts in Alexandria. That is an ancient lesson for those who think central repositories are the ultimate solution, and has reprocussions for modern data storage specialists. Still, once and idea was written down it can and often was spread arround through manuscript copiers. The invention of the printing press did help to make the job of a copier much easier and to spread the ideas around further.

BTW, I wouldn't say it is impossible to eliminate ideas in print, even mass published books. It is just harder and takes a more determined government.

Awsome discovery

[kbahey]

Well, it is my home town. I was born and raised there many moons ago.

Anyway, to give some perspective and background:

• Here is a Map of Alexandria.
• The Brucheion would be on the promontary that is just east of where "Raml Station" is marked, facing West.
• Where it says, Qaitbay Fort still stands today, and is said to be on the site of the famous Pharos Lighthouse of Alexandria, one of the seven wonders of the world, and build using the stones from its ruins.
• Just at the base of the promontary, the new library of Alexandria recently opened.
• The original library was most probably burned during the Roman attack of the city.
• The story of the Arabs buring the library is inaccurate and discredited by most historians.
• There was another daughter library at Pompey's pillar (which was not built by Pompey by the way). This one survived for 4 more centuries, but was plundered by Christian fanatic mobs. The same mob dragged the philosopher/mathematician/priestess Hypatia
• Here is another map of underwater artifacts
• Yet another older map from 1855 depicting the battle of Alexandria on 1801 between the French and the British.
• Franck Goddio has done extensive marine archology excavations in the eastern harbor and other places in Egypt (Abu Qir for example). Interesting photos there, including this map of underwater buildings and artifacts, and an artist view of the same.

Egypt is floating on archeology, literally. It is very common to find amphorae and stuff when digging foundations for buildings.

Oh, and by the way, here are some pictures from the city today, focusing on the electric tramways, two types, narrow carriage for downtown, and a wider one for the eastern parts.

I miss it!

Dark ages?

[Anonymous Coward]

Do you think Galileo lived during the "Dark Ages"? I think you're off by hundreds of years, at least according to how the term is usually defined.

Read Luciano Canfora

[Anonymous Coward]

An excellent book about the library is "The Vanished Library" by Luciano Canfora (translated by Martin Ryle). The Italian title is "La Biblioteca Scomparsa".

Alexandria led to the invention of the Book

[bstadil]

This is a little know fact about the Library of Alexandria. At the time the other great Library was in Pergamum and they competed for the top spot.

The Ptolemic Pharaoh stopped the export of parpyrus for a period to try to gain the upper hand. This embargo resulted in pergamom (Origin of word paper)being used as substitute. Pergamom could not easely be concateneted into long roll like Papyrus so they used leafs and later started to bind them into fore-runner of a book.

Re:Alexandria led to the invention of the Book

[Anonymous Coward]

Close... not quite, though.

The word "paper" originates with "papyrus", the Egyptian product, made from pressed reeds. What they developed in Pergamum as a substitute during the embargo was parchment, made from the skins of animals.

However, you are quite correct that this (much stiffer) medium was the origin of the codex format, the "book" that we still use today.

Re:Alexandria led to the invention of the Book

[dabydeen]

Yes, we all know where the word paper comes from -- but when was it first used? Typical with Euro-centric version of history, if the Europeans (and the Arabians are added in as a sidebar) didn't have it, it didn't exist until they did. The Chinese invented paper. As usual, the web is a fountain of disinformation, so I don't belive that either. I believe paper was invented by some dim-witted caveman long before there was civilization -- he kept chewing and chewing on bark, because it held some medicinal value, spitting it out and making ... well, paper, when it dried. It was a caveman, btw, and not a cavewoman, because cavewomen were smarter and just didn't get sick.

A little depressed but unsurprised...

[Merovign]

...at all the "Sputtering rage" going on here. None of you people have any fscking idea what happened to the library, who did it, or how many times it happened.

But, as usual, it's damn the ignorance, full speed ahead! Especially when it comes to any mention of religion (especially Christan sects) here on ./, the volume goes up and the signal disappears in the noise.

All we really know about Alexandia is the library is gone and everybody points their finger at their favorite villain.

I hope you people realize that these pissing contests are just armchair versions of the ones that topple civilizations, like Rome, and lead to the messes that inevitably follow?

The fact that nobody can shut up for a minute, admit they don't have all the answers and just get a little perspective on a problem is why the Middle East is a bloodbath today. It will stay a bloodbath, no matter who invades or stays out, until there are some major changes in the way people deal with their own damned ideas.

Enjoy the bloodbath while it's still on TV for most of you.

'cause if people don't get it through their thick heads that everyone doesn't have to do agree, they won't be getting much else.

Book list.

[DigiShaman]

Among the burned ruins, they will have found a list of these books.

1. Building Pyramids for Dummies
2. Finding lost ruins.
3. How to burn a library. (currently checked out)

Why the self-loathing?

[Anonymous Coward]

I absolutely agree that being a US ally isn't something to be proud of.

Why? Who is a good nation to be an ally of? France? Oops... looks like they're involved in their latest little genocide matter in Africa. Hey, what's a few million dead anyway when they're black or jew as long as a Frenchman is making a buck?

Germany? My friends in Germany worry me with their desire to blame the Holocaust on the Jews. These are some deep rooted issues that are beginning to crop up again. This has long been a popular middle eastern view, but now it's taking a mainstream role in Germany (the code phrase is "we've dealt with this guilt long enough" which is the dominant attitude in German generations under 50 years of age). Is this what Hitler meant by a 1,000 year Reich?

China? The same government takes first place for total tens of millions exterminated in the 20th century. Oh, they now let you shop for consumer goods before they exterminate your family for religious or political beliefs. Unless you're Tibetian, and then you just get to die.

So who's the great nation? Lichtenstein? Switzerland? Hans Blix's Sweden? Appeasing and abstaining from taking a part in countering evil is not an ingredient in greatness (nobody ever nominated the "Hear No Evil, See No Evil" monkeys for a leadership post outside of the UN!). Canada comes up at the top of this unfortunate list.

Ah... the Sudan! Yes, nominated to the UN human rights council. Must be a great nation recognizing individual liberty and all (oh sure, as long as your Muslim - those other people /aren't really human/ so there's no human rights violatin' going on!)

Marillion, here's a suggest that'll make your life much more enjoyable (not to mention the life of those that have to put up with you). How about PROposing rather than OPposing? Quit bitching about those you're envious of and either decide to outdo them in good works, or accept that you're a parasite and deal with the consequence.

Per former eastern Europe allies of the US, they deserve our greatest respect. Nations like Latvia fought and died for freedom throughout the 20th century, only to be oppressed repeatedly. No wonder they can tell right from wrong, while a western will surrender his life and liberty at the slightest threat.

Thanks for nothing!

[quarkscat]

From the Arabs, the West also got numerals,
including the very important concept of
zero. Where would modern mathematics be
without these things?

Re:Thanks for nothing!

[UnrepentantHarlequin]

Actually, didn't the "Arabic" numerals (zero and all) come from India originally?

The Mayans independantly invented the concept of zero. Unfortunately, they got too involved with fratricidal wars to really go anywhere with it.

And that points out a critical thing: EVERY civilization throughout history has had its flaws. None of them have been care bears. It's a fact of life that for most of human history, the Care Bears would have been little pastel bearskin rugs in the longhouses of their less enlightened, but much better armed, neighbors. Tolerance for outsiders and outside ideas is a luxury of those powerful enough not to be threatened with destruction by forces outside their own family, clan, tribe, nation, empire, or other cultural group. When a threat or perceived threat appears, then the tolerance vanishes.

A society which only takes, and does not contribute, gains much of the benefit of the progress of more open societies but does not strengthen potential rivals. This is true whether you think of organized crime, intolerant religions, or any other group which continues to exist because the societies it exists among play by more tolerant rules.

Nice Try

[geomon]

This happens in most religions (including atheism)..

Atheism is the rejection of supernaturalism.

Name one religion that does not rely on a supernatural mechanism for its existance.

If atheism is a religion, then an abiotic environment has all kinds of biotic critters running about.

Atheism is a philosophy, not a theology.

Re:Nice Try

[Teancum]

Atheism has about as many variants as Christianity... probabally more.

Perhaps I could use a term a little more appropriate, like Secular-Humanism, which is much more specific in terms of theological viewpoint than simply the concept of somebody who rejects diety or any other sort of supernaturalism. These do indeed have organizations, even aspects that could be called in other context a "sacrament".

Some atheists I've seen go so far as to form "clubs" of common social groups of this particular viewpoint, mainly to take advantage of the social aspects of an organized religion without the theological overtones. Sometimes this is just for a beer and a round of Poker, but even these can take varied forms. If you've never heard about this before, then you are sheltered.

BTW, I did see a survey of Unitarian ministers that claimed over 65% of the ministers didn't believe in the existance of a God.

Although the U.S.S.R. was officially "atheist", it did indeed have a pantheon of "heros" that were "sacred", and if you ever went to visit Lenin's Tomb it was as much of a religious experience as any I've ever heard about or seen. I had a close friend who brought a camera into there (Lenin's tomb) pre-falling of the Berlin Wall, and he got a very interesting tour of Moscow in the back of a KGB car for over six hours. The only reason he came home was because he was the son of an American politican and they didn't want to turn it into an international incident.

BTW, you wanted me to point to at least "one religion that does not rely on supernatural mechanism for its existance". It can be argued that worship of the GNU/Linux gods can be a cult, but (un)fortunately most of the gods of that religious movement are still alive and able to tell you you are out of your mind to deal with the Church of Emacs as anything but a joke. It does fit the definition you were talking about, however.

You can also say that watching "Monday Night Football" can also be a religous experience for some people, with regular meeting times and requisite sacramental offerings. What I think of people that worship John Madden is another story.

Re:Nice Try

[geomon]

Atheism has about as many variants as Christianity... probabally more.

You obviously haven't visited http://www.adherents.com/.

Perhaps I could use a term a little more appropriate, like Secular-Humanism...

Which is not atheism....

Some atheists I've seen go so far as to form "clubs" of common social groups...

Which means the chess club is now a religion....

BTW, I did see a survey of Unitarian ministers that claimed over 65% of the ministers didn't believe in the existance of a God.

Which doesn't have *anything* to do with atheism....

Although the U.S.S.R. was officially "atheist"...

Which has as much to do with atheism as Christianity does with Nazism....

It can be argued that worship of the GNU/Linux gods can be a cult...

Point conceded. Still has nothing to do with atheism....

You have tried valiantly to defend your position, but despite your efforts, you have still failed to make a theology out of a philosophy.

People who claim atheism is religion are generally Christian fundamentalist in their beliefs. What is most striking is what making the comparison says about the person who advances it: they are saying that a system that relies on faith is the same as one that lacks it.

My lack of belief in any gods is predicated on the lack of convincing physical evidence that any exist. It is also predicated on the notion that I can be proved wrong by the introduction of incontrovertable evidence to the contrary.

No religion based on faith (which I would argue includes them all) would allow for that situation. When faced with evidence to the contrary, individuals with a fundamentalist-based belief system rationalize the evidence to fit their belief structure (fossils - floods; radiometric dating - creationism with differential radiometric clocks; evolution - creation "science").

Atheism is a philosophy, just as economics is.

Re:ads.doubleclick SUCKS

[UnknownSoldier]

LOL - only on /. can a person get moderated down for blocking certain domains.

Mods, put down the crack pipe :)