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Thoughts on Automating Driver Installs for Linux?
Auzy asks: "Originally I thought that the implementation of a system in Linux which could automatically locate and install drivers would revolutionize Linux usability, however, there has been some strong negative feedback, including comments such as that it will kill open source drivers in Linux, and that even a system which employs digital signatures could never be secure enough to stop worms. I believe the opposite, and now I want to know from the Slashdot crowd, if they think I should drop the project now and potentially save Linux from possible security problems, or if I am right in saying that potential problems can be avoided, and that this system can become successful."
Bahahah! Kill opensource drivers! right!
Anytime you come with a new and potentially revolutionary idea, you are going to run into old stick-in-the-muds who will try to bury you in a flood of FUD. FUCK THEM! If you think it's a good idea, GO FOR IT. PROVE that it works, then let the community sort it out.
-73, de n1ywb
www.n1ywb.com
Security and ease-of-configuration are NOT mutually exclusive. In fact, the simpler the configuration is, the less likely it is for a user to make a configuration mistake that will lead to a security hole.
-73, de n1ywb
www.n1ywb.com
expect a million people saying "dont do it, it's the end of the world as we know it"
if you write it and it works it'll be an amazing feature that will make the world a better place
if you write it and it doesnt work, no one will use it and no worries. it'll be a learning experience
everyone else has an agenda up their butt =)
shaolin punk, activist post-industrial
one of the things that always bothers me is the amount of programming knowledge i have to have if a driver doesnt autodetect and autoload
i dont want to nessecarily start debugging drivers under linux or having to compile them
thats for developers of the drivers.. not the users of the drivers
so a thumbs up to your vision
back in the day we didnt have no old school
Forget the naysayers. Looking over what you have done I have to say its a start. It could even help users who are afraid of linux because of driver issues. However after seeing this comment alot "
-Money to allow me to spend more time on this project, so i dont need to run off and get a job anytime soon. ", I'd recommend possibly toning that down a bit. It struck me in a negative fashion as I am sure it will strike alot of people. Thats just my 2 cents. As to hardware however, I may look through my piles of stuff to see if there is anything I can send you to help out.
"why don't you just slip into something more comfortable...like a coma!"
"All drivers are included in the kernel. Seems pretty centralized to me. Nice troll, though. "
If it worked out that way for me, I'd be running Linux now. Sorry, not a troll. I will say at the risk of being flamed to heck that I'm not trying as hard as most Linux users would. Fine. Just remember that the less intervention that is required by the end user, the more mainstream Linux will go. Linux is so close to cracking the Windows monopoly, but some attitudes about how 'smart' the user needs to be are really detrimental (sp?).
"Derp de derp."
"All drivers are included in the kernel. Seems pretty centralized to me. Nice troll, though."
This dismissive attitude about problems with Linux (ill-informed or not) is exactly why I won't switch. I'm so sick of the 7337 attitude some people like you have. You're just going to have to deal with the fact that you'll have n00bs complaining about things like this.
Tough luck for them. They don't need to use your software,and they don't need to include it in their distributions.
If it were built into Mandrake or Knoppix or Fedora, I'd love the feature and never think twice about it.
The world will not get better through technology. We must seek to be better people.
I agree that it's wonderful to have devices work easily. The way I've achieved this historically, has been to have a current kernel. Most Distros add all the usefull drivers into their release of the kernel.
I know that people are afraid of it, but compiling the kernel isn't that big a deal ( especially if you don't mess with the config and just include everything ).
On the other hand, as someone who has to deal with supporting end users, I like the idea that people will be forced to learn wtf they're doing before they're able to do it.
Most of the 'stupid' users out there are simply lazy, and feel that if they whine long enough the computer will do for them.
Sitting Walrus Blog
The centrino wifi drivers I have agonized over for the past two months. I am so frustrated with the overall driver config that I'm about to throw my laptop out a window.
I am tired of having to recompile my kernel because some function isn't enabled by default (hotplug in this case.) Frustration with the 2.4.25/6 kernel forced me to dig around looking at the 2.6 kernel. Then finding out that the (2.6.6) kernel version has a problem with my laptop in atkbd so whenever I press a certain key I get a kernel error, oh but now modprobe ipw2100 works as long as I make sure I compile the driver in legacy firmware mode bypassing hotplug. Not to mention the fact that there are little inconsistencies in procedure between kernels and packages. Not that this is the kernel developers fault, but having to enable PCMCIA support in the 2.6 to get HOSTAP to compile and having to disable it in 2.4 is something that the joe-blow consumer isn't even going to comprehend, let alone know how to do via config/menuconfig etc.
Automatic driver installation would be a headache to secure, but the need is surely there. My headaches are those of someone who's had to do this before... I can only imagine the headaches of someone un-initiated.
I am a computer geek (both personally and professionally) and I _hate_ spending long amounts of time trying to get my hardware working in Linux.
I welcome something like Kudzu matched with an automatic driver download / install service.
There are ways to help with the security aspects, like requiring digital signatures, giving the user plenty of information about who is providing the driver, etc etc.
And frankly, I don't care if the driver is open source or not. Yes, I do prefer open source drivers, but when it comes down to it, if I have to deal with binary only to make a great piece of hardware work well, I can cope. (NVIDIA drivers, anyone?)
Looks like a big potential security risk to me. And the same reason why it's disabled on future Windows OS's.
-- I don't buy it, I grow it.
That is always a threat. Any newb looking at these packages won't have a flipping clue on if a package is from a good site, signature or not! It is either them searching for the internet for driver X then who knows what they'll get back, or else they get a signed drivier that has a better chance of success. Ideally, if you approve the root cert for linuxdriversondemand.org or whatever site, any driver from that site should be able to get certified against that site's keys. If you don't know where the driver is coming from, then suspect the worst.
Bye!
The difference is that Debian is a trusted source. Anyone can get a certificate. The point being that being "trusted" and "accountable" are 2 different things. You'd have to bring a lawsuit or otherwise litigate against someone that caused damage to your install. The fact that you can track the person makes it easier to seek damages, however, it doesn't make them a "trusted" source by any stretch.
Don't think that a small group of dedicated individuals can't change the world. It's the only thing that ever has.
Why only drivers? Why not all software on demand? Perhaps package by package (apt-get & such almost do this already).
Even better: file by file on demand. Why should I install all the 100 files of a package X today if my usage habit only really accesses 10 of them today, and 10 more tomorrow, and others never.
Hmm... While we are at it, why stop at file level. Why not memory map the remote files to local VM and fetch them page by page on demand from the network? Persistent local page cache (a new sort of swap file) would make it fast after first fetch.
Anssi Porttikivi / app@iki.fi
The Linux driver situation is a disaster right now. The Linux kernel folks are unwilling to do any work to make it easier to load new drivers. Everything must be compiled from source. There is no standard way to figure out where the kernel source is. The process always emits threatening messages about kernel taining, or warnings about SUBDIRs, or other things that scare the hell out of customers. Binary kernel modules are the answer, not because developers are dying to write closed source modules, but because the idea that every single customer must compile these drivers from source is a support disaster!
It's one of the biggest issues with linux. I know this sounds pro-ms, but drivers just aren't an issue with windows. you swap out drivers whenever you want, and you can always get the ones you want (for free). Windows can even get drivers for you off the net automatically. Custom drivers are available, as well as microsoft-certified ones. I think linux needs to head in this direction to get more of a hold on the userbase. Things like this reassure end users, who don't want to deal with a broken computer.