Metal Velcro

Fast to create as well by Space+cowboy · 2004-05-15 04:44 · Score: 3, Interesting

Whenever I read one of these articles about a process requiring X, Y and Z to all do novel things A,B and C under strict conditions, I always think 'how are you going to commercialise that?! Chip fabrication was a case in point - I guess where there's a multi-billion dollar will, there's a way...

This process requires lasers to melt the metal and tease the structures into being and yet it can do 100 cm^2 in 10 seconds... That's just not intuitive [grin]. Kudos to the researchers - us Brits have always been jealous of the Yanks for inventing the zip anyway :-)

Simon

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Physicists get Hadrons!

Re:Fast to create as well by Jennifer+E.+Elaan · 2004-05-15 05:22 · Score: 5, Interesting

It's not a laser at all, but an electron beam. And as for the speed at which an electron beam can be scanned over a square surface, chances are you're staring at a demonstration of this as you read this.
This is the same technology that is used in CRT's, but scaled up a few orders of magnitude in power. And a computer just draws shapes with it, like an old vector graphics screen. Not just commercializable, it's easy to do.

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Hardware, software, and blinking lights!

Awesome by thedillybar · 2004-05-15 04:50 · Score: 4, Interesting

This looks like a great idea, I just hope it holds up well to age and fatigue.

It will be interesting to see whether or not this actually makes it into production anytime in the near future (or even in our lifetime). I hope so.

Other applications? by beeplet · 2004-05-15 04:51 · Score: 4, Interesting

That's pretty impressive, even if it's not the hook-and-eye structure that the word "velcro" first brought to mind.

I'm sure there must be other applications besides bonding that would benefit from increased surface area. Heatsinks, maybe?

Re:Other applications? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-05-15 05:27 · Score: 2, Interesting

well probably not a heat sink.
Yes surface area is grat for heatsinks, but u also want the air to move as fast as possible acros the surface.
i would say that a textured surface like that (creating a lot of turbulance) would reduce air flow very close to the surface and hence reduce the heat transfered.
IIRC cactus use this idea, there spikes reduce the airmovement acros there surface and hence reduce evaporation of water
Re:Other applications? by drinkypoo · 2004-05-15 05:46 · Score: 4, Interesting

The sibling to this comment put aside for a moment (or longer), this technology will probably not make heat sinks all that much more efficient, but it may provide improvements in the methods of manufacturing them. There is a certain minimum clearance between fins of a heat sink beyond which airflow will suffer significantly. This will vary based on pressure, in that the smaller the hole is, the more pressure you need to get a decent flow rate through it.
To me, the primary benefit appears to be the improved speed of manufacturing, not the precision - though that is certainly a positive factor. In fact, since I mention radiators, building complicated structures like that could more easily be done by a machine. It would be really slick if you could have an enclosed robotic system that would build radiators from stocks of tubing and varying sizes of aluminum ribbon and sheet. Aluminum racing radiators, 1-n cores, while-u-wait - and they could be sold for the price of an ordinary radiator because they would be completed very rapidly. Just run out a length of the stuff, crimp to shape, zap it with the electron beam, and push it together.
One has to wonder if you could somehow employ this technique on a larger scale to get penetration, so you could do fusion welding without having to bring an arc near. Then you really could build just about anything. All you need is a plasma cutter, a small-scale electron welder, and a large-scale one. Metal parts can be cut to shape and welded, and parts made of other materials can be supplied to the system pre-formed.

--
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Re:Other applications? by Resident+Netizen · 2004-05-15 07:19 · Score: 2, Interesting

I doubt that a 'metallic velcro' interface would seal well enough to be useful in a radiator. As for electron beam welding, it is currently in wide use but typically requires joint-mating-surface-contact to be extremely good; not a feature typically found in plasma cutting. Another topic: Why make the metallic velcro act as the heat fins? Just grow it on the surface you want to cool and shove your standard aluminum extrusion (with corresponding metallic velcro patch) onto it. The patches might allow for good heat transfer between each other- better than one patch alone to the air. Who knows, after a while (and some heat) the two patches may diffusion bond together and become permanent.

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My other sig is a Porsche!
Re:Other applications? by jafuser · 2004-05-15 09:43 · Score: 3, Interesting

I was thinking if they could fuse these structures between layers of foil, it could make a lightweight metal sponge of sorts, that would probably be quite strong for it's density.

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Isn't the point of velcro by ProudClod · 2004-05-15 04:53 · Score: 5, Interesting

That you can pull it apart?

If the bond on this stuff is so very very strong, then what advantages does it lend over, say, epoxy?

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Gamers Europe - Gaming News. Reviews.

Re:Let me be the first to say... by DrEldarion · 2004-05-15 04:58 · Score: 3, Interesting

Nah, it wouldn't have that effect. Ever laid on a bed of nails? Since there are so many, it supports you without much discomfort.

I'm sure they're too small to pierece the skin, anyway. The most they'd probably do is get suck on you and itch like crazy.

Heatsinks by Mifflesticks · 2004-05-15 05:10 · Score: 5, Interesting

Up to 10x the surface area of the sheet of metal? Sounds like it could make for a great low-profile heatsink. Of course, development costs could be prohibitive, but still...

Re:Heatsinks by rpozz · 2004-05-15 05:21 · Score: 2, Interesting

It could possibly make the inside of a water-cooling block more efficent as well. IANAP (I am not a physicist), but wouldn't the increased overall surface area between the coolant and the cooling block lead to a better transfer of heat?
Re:Heatsinks by Raynach · 2004-05-15 05:39 · Score: 4, Interesting

Did anyone RTFA?
They could also be used in electronics to produce heat sinks of just about any shape.
This _would_ make a wicked heat sink. And mentioning that it can be make in any form could really turn heatsinks from structures that jut far out from the chip to something that is conservative on space.

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- A

Re:Name? by AndroidCat · 2004-05-15 05:23 · Score: 2, Interesting

But it has evolved with time. Most current British accents are even further from speech of a few hundred years ago than many American accents.

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One line blog. I hear that they're called Twitters now.

Low-gravity? by cybermace5 · 2004-05-15 05:31 · Score: 4, Interesting

They say that they can get structures up to 2mm high and .2mm across, but that's under the influence of gravity. I wonder if this process would work in zero-G, and perhaps work better to create longer structures or different shapes for even stronger bonds?

This is very good news for composite fiber development. While composite has been exceptionally strong and light, it's difficult to find reliable ways to attach things to it. You basically have to build the fittings into the composite material. "Sticky-metal" fittings might make composites less expensive to use.

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But how do they get the other side to stick? by bobbabemagnet · 2004-05-15 05:46 · Score: 2, Interesting

I love velcro and its ability to stick two things together, but my problem is usually in getting the velcro to stick to the material on the other side. How will this fabulous metal stuff be stuck to whatever surface it will be on?

Gobsmacking? by stienman · 2004-05-15 06:08 · Score: 4, Interesting

"When we first realised we could do this we were absolutely gobsmacked," Dance says.

Brilliant! Those boffins have really done it now. Just a quick electron scan and Bob's your uncle!

gobsmacked adj. Nothing to do with punching people in the face (although I'm sure that's where it derives from originally), to describe someone as being gobsmacked means they're very surprised or taken aback.
From here.

Although I didn't realize that boffin was somewhat of an insult. That would have been embarrassing, interviewing for a position and referring to your interviewer as a boffin...

-Adam

Corrosion? by rockgorilla · 2004-05-15 06:13 · Score: 3, Interesting

What about corrosion? If you increase the surface area so much it'll be very quick to corrode (rust) and then all the hooks will fall apart.

Normally you would galvanise or paint it in with something water proof, but surly painting it would cover all the hooks up? I know this isn't an issue for stainless steel but there are plenty of other metals.

Re:The advantage is... by Phanatic1a · 2004-05-15 06:38 · Score: 2, Interesting

It's in the middle of a very tight join between a block of metal and a composite surface; if air and moisture could get to it, then maybe it will rust, if it's a metal susceptible to it.

You'd probably take care to design the joint so that air and moisture can't get to it.

Re:This is old news... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-05-15 07:00 · Score: 1, Interesting

Actually, the root of the word NEWS is: North East West South

Right out of Ariadne by Thagg · 2004-05-15 07:21 · Score: 4, Interesting

The New Scientist magazine, back when I was in school in the early 80's, had a column on the last page of each issue, descibing the exploits of the mythical engineer/scientist Daedalus (actually David E H Jones.)

He had proposed doing exactly this, but with glass, back in one of these columns. It was exactly the same method and result.

It's not the first time that Daedalus's speculative inventions have turned into reality. A couple of books have been published collecting the best of Daedalus.

thad

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I love Mondays. On a Monday, anything is possible.

So, anybody here think... by cr0sh · 2004-05-15 07:25 · Score: 4, Interesting

...this stuff will be stronger than JB-Weld?

JB-Weld, for those of you who don't know, is probably number one in the list of tools for rednecks and others (right next to duct tape, baling wire, and bubblegum) who need to make a repair fairly quickly, and want it to remain in place.

JB-Weld is strong - very strong. It is a two-part epoxy (comes in slow and quick setting versions) which I have yet to find an equal to.

My brother-in-law repaired the cracked housing of a blower off the diesel engine on his 10-wheel dump truck (it was alluminum, and he didn't have the equipment to properly weld it) - that repair lasted 5 years before he "retired" the truck (actually, the engine block cracked), probably would have lasted even longer...

I use it all the time - if it is something that I can't weld but I need to have it stay together (under heat, pressure, vibration, or other high stress especially) - JB Weld is my first choice. I have seen it hold shit together where you would swear it would have to be welded (more or less, it is - just an epoxy "weld") to stay together.

Now, I know this "metal velcro" is supposed to be an "industrial process" - meaning it will likely never be available for home use in the near future. I also know there are industrial epoxies. I wonder if any of them would beat the pants off of JB-Weld - though I wonder if JB is already an industrial epoxy packaged for "small project" use - I wish I could buy that stuff in larger quantities...

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Reason is the Path to God - Anon

The composite material would form the seal, right? by LairBob · 2004-05-15 07:26 · Score: 4, Interesting

I think you've got a point if you're just going to leave the surface exposed to normal air once it's been sculpted, but assuming that you weren't careless in storing it till it's used, then once the composite's been bonded to it, that should take care of any rusting problem, right?

This isn't meant for surfaces that are meant to stay exposed--it's a method to prepare them for some kind of further use, like composite bonding.

Re:Where is the weakest link, btw? by Resident+Netizen · 2004-05-15 07:33 · Score: 3, Interesting

(ignoring the pastry/patty/bread arguments)... Your model seems to conceptualize this process like that of glue or some kind of adhesive bonding. It is not- the 'hairs' are grown from the parent material; they are therefore 'attached' to the parent via the same metallic-lattice bonds that hold the parent together. It's nothing like a slab of melted cheese between a beef (or tofu) patty and a slice of bread. It's more like, um, well, *velcro*! That said, the 'metallic hairs' might tend to fail with some amount of cold work applied... ever bent a paperclip back and forth until it breaks? I'd be worried about fatigue life of this kind of 'bond'. It all depends on the material properties of the parent, though.

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My other sig is a Porsche!

Mushrooms vs. hooks by tgibson · 2004-05-15 13:47 · Score: 5, Interesting

Interesting quality about velcro. If you replace the hooks with mushrooms, the loops grab under the head of the mushrooms and the fastening becomes permanent (i.e. you can't separate the two pieces).

I'm sure this version velcro is used in many areas. I became aware of it via a friend working in pest control. The nets he was using on buildings to prevent access by pigeons were fastened using this version of velcro.

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