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Alternatives to Cars?
H0NGK0NGPH00EY asks: "I hate cars. -- Why in the heck am I lugging a giant steel box with me everywhere I go, and paying through the nose to make it go? Well, the main reason is because there aren't any affordable, viable alternatives. Are there?"
"I drive about 18 miles to work, mostly pseudo-highway (60mph, two-lane
road with two stop lights on the way). Too far to bike, or I would--during the summer months, at least. I would get a motorcycle, but in my mind, it's only better than a car on one count, it's size. It still uses gasoline, is dirty, noisy, and has too many moving parts. Plus they don't protect me from the weather.
I've looked into small, commuter electric vehicles. And I've come up largely empty-handed. Here's what I have found:
Corbin Motors' 'Sparrow'
As you may know, Corbin produced about 300 of these beauties before one of their largest investors called in his money, and forced them into Chapter 7 bankruptcy. There were a number of technical problems, and due to their scarcity they're a bit hard to come by now. Besides, who would want to spend $7,000 + on an un-supported vehicle?
Cree's 'SAM'
Basically the same as the Sparrow, but not available yet. The company has been around since 1996(!), and has just recently basically 're-started.' Who knows when, if ever, they'll have a marketable product, especially in the USA.
Commuter Cars' 'Tango'
A local guy with a dream. And a dang fine looking vehicle. But alas, also not in production in any real way, and only currently available in a $85,000 kit. He talks about a $20,000 mass-marketed version, but I'll believe it when I see it...
Nevco's 'Gizmo'
Finally one that appears to actually be available. But at $12,000 it's a little steep for me, especially seating only one and only getting up to 45mph, with a 45 mile range.
So, has anyone here had any better luck?"
I've looked into small, commuter electric vehicles. And I've come up largely empty-handed. Here's what I have found:
Corbin Motors' 'Sparrow'
As you may know, Corbin produced about 300 of these beauties before one of their largest investors called in his money, and forced them into Chapter 7 bankruptcy. There were a number of technical problems, and due to their scarcity they're a bit hard to come by now. Besides, who would want to spend $7,000 + on an un-supported vehicle?
Cree's 'SAM'
Basically the same as the Sparrow, but not available yet. The company has been around since 1996(!), and has just recently basically 're-started.' Who knows when, if ever, they'll have a marketable product, especially in the USA.
Commuter Cars' 'Tango'
A local guy with a dream. And a dang fine looking vehicle. But alas, also not in production in any real way, and only currently available in a $85,000 kit. He talks about a $20,000 mass-marketed version, but I'll believe it when I see it...
Nevco's 'Gizmo'
Finally one that appears to actually be available. But at $12,000 it's a little steep for me, especially seating only one and only getting up to 45mph, with a 45 mile range.
So, has anyone here had any better luck?"
"What are bicycles and public transportation, Alex?"
.@.
Unless you live in a major city in the US, there's no such thing as public transportation, and heck, in many large cities there isn't.
And, if you live in suburbia, it's just too far to ride a bike/walk.
The biggest problem with commuter electric vehicles is that most of them consume more energy per mile than an economy car with one occupant. Judging from the flames I've gotten in previous posts, I'll be conservative and say that this means that a Geo Metro or Toyota Echo or something will probably pollute less than your average CEV, depending on how your electricity is generated.
What would really work best is to carpool - never underestimate the gas/people ratio of a minivan full of 6-8 groggy people in business suits. It'd be a hell of a lot cheaper, too.
You can buy an older, used car for $3,000-5,000. If you learn to work on them yourself, you can save money on repairs and maintainence.
Sure, it won't be the shiniest, newest thing on the road, but you won't be shelling out $500 a month for a car payment, plus half that for full coverage insurance.
I drive a motorcycle to work every day. A 250cc bike gets more than 50 miles per gallon and is nice and flexible. Also, the insurance costs about $100 a year. For protection from the weather you can have a cowl, windshield, and rain gear. Stop whining because it's not everything a car is and do something to make things better. Besides, it's fun!
"I hate cars. --
Then why, do you have as the #1 thing on your 'wish list' on your website, a Chrysler PT Cruiser?
...but a substantial proportion of the population do live either in a major city *with* decent public transportation or within cycling distance of their place of work (say 5 miles). I'd even say a majority fall into one of these two categories (I'm in Europe.) That doesn't stop all of those people driving.
The post-WW2 era has resulted in communities that make cars just about mandatory. Occasionally a small town or city will ban cars from its city center, or create safe bike paths and pedestrian walkways, but those are exceptions. Most suburbanites don't like the idea of having any commercial activity whatever in their view, so that tends to put even the small local stores in strip malls on busy highways. That is not friendly to pedestrians or bicycles.
I would highly recommend investigating your locality's municipal transit system. Eighteen miles is a bit of distance on the bus, but it might be worth it.
Barring that, ask them about carpool and/or vanpool prospects.
This sig no verb.
http://www.electricvehiclesnw.com/main/lite.htm
Mine is arriving on Monday.
Take another look at motorcycles.
Actually you'll find that motorcycles get much, much better mileage than any car. Not only do they not use nearly as much gasoline, but look into some of the better brands of bikes and you'll find that their quiet, and clean, especially triumph, and BMWs. Not every bike is a hog.
You'll also find that motorcycles are quite mechanically simple, all the parts are easily accessible, making the bike easier to work on than a car. Also depending on where you work you may get a better parking spot from riding a bike.
As for when weather is bad, that's when you either break down and drive your car. Or a better solution is a revolving car pool with people who live near you. If you can't wrangle one with coworkers, try your local transit authority, they can usually help you find a carpool.
Well art is art isn't it, but then again water is water; and east is east; and west is west; and if you take cranberries
The answer: get a rocket pack!
Don't blame Durga. I voted for Centauri.
The problem arises from having to take a highway, car alternatives are unfortunatly generaly not up to car speeds. If you could find an alternate route with a slower speed limit i would suggest this. After a while 18 miles will be nothing on a recumbant, and a covered one like that reduces drag (you can fly on those things) and protects you from the rain.
"Sic Semper Tyrannosaurus Rex."
This site has some pretty good info on electric-assisted bicycles, though it gets into a bit of silly rhetoric: Electric Bikes Northwest
OK, silly subject headers aside -- electric cars may be quiet and clean, but they're usually not as energy efficient as they may seem. A good economy car can usually rival an electric car in terms of energy efficency...and they just wreck them in terms of cost (cheaper to purchase -- due to higher production volume and the use of cheaper materials, and definitely cheaper to own -- more moving parts, but parts are made from heavier, cheaper materials, and are available in higher volume and thus, the costs are reduced).
Motorcycles can be loud, and they can be smelly, but they're probably some of the most fuel efficient vehicles on the road. I've seen 60 MPG on an old ~600cc bike pretty consistently. I don't know what a newer bike can do, but they may be better. However, there are also the issues of weather protection and cargo space...but you were the one who didn't want a big steel box, so you may be out of luck if you want weather protection and cargo capacity in any suitable vehicle (unless you want a carbon fiber monocoque car...bling bling, baby).
It sounds like you're going to have a hard time finding transportation that you're happy with. Have you considered carpooling to work?
-Turkey
From the submission:
Too far to bike, or I would--during the summer months, at least.
What about, "What are 'lack of reading comprehension' Alex?"
You probably shouldn't click this.
I personally haven't owned a car since 1986. I did own a motorbike for two years but sold it off and went back to bicycles when I noticed I was starting to get fat.
:)
I bicycle year 'round, never have to worry about exercising; get lots of excitement dodging cars, peds and cougars; and, at 49 I'm in better shape than most everyone else I see except for younger bicyclists.
It's doable: dress apropriately for the weather, put fenders on the bicycle, and always be ultra-aware when on the road -- the cars try to kill you from all directions.
Also consider moving closer to your work.
Everything in the Universe sucks: It's the law!
Though I've never been to the United States, it sounds like public transport infrastructure is less than desirable from the second hand reports I get.
Isn't this sufficient grounds to be an advocate and lobbyist for more public transport.
Why look to new technology for alternatives, when the real problem is the underutilation of existant technology.
I was involved in lobbying for a train station to be built at the University of Newcastle in Australia. It was built the year I left, but it opened up public transport as a viable means of transport for thousands of students who lived further up the valley and were filling the roads with cars.
You can't have the best of both worlds.
... I'm too far off from dowtown and public transit blows.
:) The more people are interested in ditching their cars, the sooner cities will be forced to upgrade their public transit systems.
In the city I live in (Montreal), there is amazing public transportation. It would be a blatant waste of cash to park your car for $80/month downtown.. plus god knows how much in gas.
Obviously the response is "Waaaa waaaaa" in the city I live in
Well.. there people that pick the places they live in with transportation in mind. You can't expect society to bend to your will, because you need to subbornly live where you live.
If I suddently got a job opportunity in Austin Texas (I'm a software devel), the first thing I would be asking is how much are they paying me, and is there a good transit system to get me to work.. or a car pool.. or something.
You can kiss your $10 raise goodbye otherwise.
Basically I'm saying.. move to a better place, heck you might even make some money in real estate in the process
Love, Zaq
Finally one that appears to actually be available. But at $12,000 it's a little steep for me, especially seating only one and only getting up to 45mph, with a 45 mile range.
You want it to seat more than one, but you don't want a "giant steel box"? You want it to go more than 45 mph, but you don't want it to have "too many moving parts".
And 12,000 is too steep?
I guess that's why nobody is trying to make these cars. People like you may profess to want them - but aren't willing to compromise anything or pay a reasonable amount.
Let's not stir that bag of worms...
A big part of that is that our national policies subsidize the crap out of owning a home. The income tax deduction for mortgage interest and Fannie/Freddie allow borrowers to get US government rates mean that it is silly not to own a home (denser housing has not historically appreciated as well as single family housing). These two combined with most homeowners lack of financial knowledge (not counting leverage as part of the return equation, leads people to believe that homes appreciate in value faster than other assets (they don't but most assets don't allow 5+ leverage). I really don't understand why our policies continue to encourage homeownership, especially in the light of current policies moving slowly toward oil conservation. There are lots of people who would benefit from denser apartment living closer to work. Good luck trying to change that, however, the mortgage tax deduction is even more of a third rail than social security. Even flat taxers try hard not to bring up the fact that that would go away on the post card returns.
Degaussing scares the bad magnetism out of the monitor and fills it with good karma.
I don't know about that, I know in my day I used to walk in 3 feet of snow/rain/100 degree heat to work...uphill both ways. It was tough, but we survived.
You have a choice where you live
Maybe so, but you don't always have a choice where you work. I don't think moving is what the OP had in mind.
Beauty is in the eye of the beerholder.
Hmm, good call. It was mainly because I admire the visual style of the PT Cruiser. Of course, I also know that no one who may buy me gifts (family or friends) is going to buy me a $20,000 car, so it was mainly up there as a joke.
:^)
But, since you mentioned it, I have changed it.
Do not read this sig.
I think too often environmentalists overlook the absolute utility of having a car.
It's big, but its comfortable. It is easy to drive in all types of weather. (Try biking in snow.) It is available whenever you need it. It is actually pretty cheap if you want it to be. They are well-understood devices that are easy to maintain (you can rotate the tires, change the oil, and do all sorts of stuff yourself with just a few tools.) You can carry luggage or more passengers with ease.
People have wanted a car (abbreviations for carriage) ever since they got tired of riding horses. They've built first chariots and later buggies and finally enclosed carriages. When the motor was invented, they got rid of the messy and unhygienic horses and replaced it with the much cleaner and more powerful engine.
I think people tend to emphasize the downsides of owning a car without realizing the benefits. With a car, anywhere in the United States is accessible in hours. You are free to go anywhere you like whenever you like without having to ask for permission or wait for a bus to show up. You enjoy comfort in cold, hot, wet, or snowy weather.
What are the downsides for this freedom? A bit of pollution, a higher price tag than most other things you own, and the risk of getting into a collision.
As for me, until a better solution that is more versatile and useful comes out, I'll be holding on to my cars.
The radical sect of Islam would either see you dead or "reverted" to Islam.
Maybe so, but you don't always have a choice where you work.
But you can live close to where you work, pretty much wherever your work happens to be. Moving in order to reduce the commute, use bicycles, or use public transportation is often a reasonable (and possibly money-saving) option.
I don't think moving is what the OP had in mind.
That's exactly the reason I mentioned it.
I was about to write a post here flaming the guy for 'hating cars'. Then I remembered the $2.50 per gallon gas price here in California. Now I'm thinking "More power to ya, man!"
"Derp de derp."
The reason for using electric vehicles right now is not that they consume less energy, it's that they pollute less at the location where they are used. That's important because cities have real air quality problems, and that's a reason why so many cities use electric vehicles.
In the long term, electric or hydrogen powered vehicles also have the potential advantage that whatever CO2 is generated during energy production can be sequestered away, rather than being released into the atmosphere. Also, once you have switched to electric or hydrogen, you have a much wider choice of energy sources (e.g., solar becomes an option; it isn't if you burn gasoline).
And get > 40 mpg, 50 if you do all highway, but with the added benefit of things like a radio, a trunk, seatbelts, and your life if you ever get into a crash.
I want to delete my account but Slashdot doesn't allow it.
I don't know where you live, but I work in downtown Charlotte (NC) and before that worked in downtown Tampa (FL). Both of those had no viable living anywhere close to it, unless you either had over $400,000 to spend on a "luxury condo" or wanted to live somewhere where your safety might be in jeopordy.
Random Musings
This is a very good point -- if you start thinking of your milage in terms of "person-miles" per gallon (PMPGs) then it really quickly makes alot of sense to carpool. A huge SUV @ 10 mpg with 4 passengers gets better PMPGs than almost any single-occupant vehicle. With email, PDA's, cell phones, etc..., flexible car pool management is easier than ever too. Plus, you might make some new friends in the process.
A few responses to the comments so far:
... depending on how your electricity is generated.
... Stop whining because it's not everything a car is and do something to make things better.
:)
"What are bicycles and public transportation, Alex?"
As I stated in the submission, bicycles aren't really an option. Not only the distance, but I live in the Seattle area, so there are a number of rather daunting hills along my 18 mile commute. As far as public transportation goes, I have looked into that, but commuting from Kenmore to Monroe by bus would take over an hour, and require three bus changes. There just aren't any routes that run directly between the two.
The biggest problem with commuter electric vehicles is that most of them consume more energy per mile than an economy car with one occupant.
As stated above, I live in Seattle, so the majority of our electricity comes from the dams. Almost certainly cleaner than burning a gallon of gas every 30 miles.
You can buy an older, used car for $3,000-5,000. If you learn to work on them yourself, you can save money on repairs and maintainence.
I already have an older used car, that I only paid $2000 for six years ago. And, I already do work on it myself. The point isn't just the cost, but the waste of space and fuel. Even though I get 30mpg, it still feels like a waste.
suck it up and get a motorcycle.
First, who's whining? Second, I'm not prepared to take the risks associated with a motorcycle. Too many drivers are blind to them, and here in Seattle, the weather is not very friendly to motorcycles for much of the year. Believe me, there are tempting aspects of motorcycles, but they don't hold enough advantages over my cheap clunker car to woo me to them.
Then why, do you have as the #1 thing on your 'wish list' on your website, a Chrysler PT Cruiser?
See above. Good point, and I have changed it. (^_^)
Yes, rideshare. Carpool, vanpool, bus, train, SOMETHING where there is another driver.
I'm actually working on that. Working way out in sticks, most people at my small company (less than 2 dozen employees) come from different directions than me, or work different hours than me. One person comes from my direction, and we're working out a plan to carpool at least a few days a week, even though we usually work different hours than each other.
Basically I'm saying.. move to a better place, heck you might even make some money in real estate in the process
Hmm, not likely, considering two factors: 1) I don't own a house. 2) I'm only paying $250 a month for the two-bedroom I'm at now. Again, given that I'm living in the greater Seattle area, moving would be an incredibly foolish financial decision.
Do not read this sig.
I started riding motorcycle 'bout 3 years ago. My first one was a BMW F650GS. Gave me about 4.2 liters / 100km (even with heay riding, maxing the speedo out at 160km/h). Dirty? Comes standard with a catalytic converter. Only dirty part was that chain, that needed to be lubed regularly. Noisy? Not really. Heck, in Europe even the Harleys are silent :-). Cold? Mind you, Johannesburg's winters may be not as harsh as other places, rarely goes below 0C, but those heated handlebars come in quite handy from May to Sept. The great thing: it's a real rush hour beater. My commute is about 40 km, and in Johannesburg's insane traffic, it still takes me no more than 45-50 minutes.
Then again, feet have proven quite sufficient for thousands of years :-p
Free, as in your money being freed from the confines of your account.
Used cars cost lots more in repairs and unless you're a serious mechanic you aren't going to be fixing things such as blown head gaskets and dead transmissions.
The most affordable thing to do is buy a $20,000 Japanese car and run it into the ground. You can put 200,000 miles on it easy and you probably wouldn't have any major repairs until way past the 100,000 mark.
Hollow words will burn and hollow men will burn.
I have to drive 30 miles to work on some of the most congested roads. Without traffic, it takes 30 minuts, on a day with a avgerage-substantial amount of traffic it takes 1:45.
This has me seriously looking into helicopters. You can get them about about $20,000, but the licensing and all will cost another 50k.
There are some 1-person ultra small helicopters that you don't need a license for, these are ~50k, but don't need a license. The smaller ones have much smaller rotors, and I could land them in the parking lot at work. I'd still have to fill up the same amount and on the same scedule though. So no gas savings, but I get 2-3 hours of my day back.
Slashdot's rate-of-post filter: Preventing you from posting too many great ideas at once.
you can buy a $5,000 honda with 100k on it, replace the timing belt and STILL put 200,000 MORE miles on it.
I follow the SDK and GDN principles.. Spelling Dont Kount, Grammer Dont Neither
Obviously you don't ride a motorcycle. I have been commuting in Houston on a motorcycle for many, many years without an incident. I take the MSF (Motorcycle Safety Class) about once a year, I ALWAYS ride with gear (full face helmet, gloves, Kevlar shirt or jacket and pants, and boots), and ride rain or shine, and let me tell you it rains a LOT here in Houston (30+ inches a year). I drive like I am invisible, plan as far ahead as I can, and I LOVE MY RIDE every day! I'm getting 40+ mpg and had been commuting 60+ miles a day through downtown Houston, but one big advantage of a bike is it will get you on the HOV lane in major cities. If you are headed the same way as traffic wave to the folks in cars as you slide by them. Total cost of ownership of a bike is much less than a car, you can get a fabulous bike (DON'T GET A HARLEY, you have been warned!) for under $8000 new, and add a rain suit, helmet and clothes (you can get very nice looking gear that you can wear to work without being obvious), maybe another $2000 to be generous. Don't skimp on a helmet, get the best you can. Ride to Work day is July 17. http://www.ridetowork.org has info on it. The added visibility and maneuverability along with good training can make you a safe rider for life, and if you are like me you won't drive a card unless you have to, like going out with the family, or shopping for something that REALLY won't fit in the bike. You'd be surprised at how much you can take on one.
As an avid cyclist, I can vouch for the fact that 18 miles is not too far for a bicycle. After a month of commuting by bike, you'll find that distance (36 miles per day round trip) is like nothing. Of course this depends on terrain -- if the roads are dangerous or extremely mountainous, or if the weather is bad, it might not be practical. But the distance isn't a problem. I can haul my sorry 40 year old butt along at over 20 MPH on flat terrain, and 16-17 MPH in the mountains -- indefinately. You can too.
"The biggest problem with commuter electric vehicles is that most of them consume more energy per mile than an economy car with one occupant."
Where do you get this shit? It's all documented right here:
http://www.fueleconomy.gov
...and you're just plain wrong!
This is the situation for many, many people in some areas of the country:
I'll move near my work as soon as THERE IS ACTUALLY SOMEWHERE TO LIVE THERE besides a ditch somewhere in an industrial park.
*grumble*
--TheOrangeSquid Is it any wonder things seem so awry? We swim in a sea of confusion and don't have to think to survive