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When Robots Play Games
Roland Piquepaille writes "If the theory of evolution has worked well for us -- even if this is arguable these days -- why not apply it to mobile robots?, asks Technology Research News. Several U.S. researchers just did that and trained neural networks to play the Capture the flag game. Once the neural networks were good enough at the game, they transferred them to the robots' onboard computers. These teams of mobile robots, named EvBots (for Evolution Robots), were then also able to play the game successfully. This method could be used to build environment-aware autonomous robots able to clear a minefield or find heat sources in a collapsed building within 3 to 6 years. But the researchers want to build controllers for robots that adapt to completely unknown environments. And this will not happen before 10 or maybe 50 years. You'll find more details and references in this overview, including a picture of EvBots trying to find their way during a game." Read on for a similar robot competition held this weekend in France.
saunabad writes "The annual Eurobot autonomous robot contest for amateurs is held this weekend on La Férte-Bernard, France. This year's theme is 'coconut rugby,' and the robots are collecting small stress balls from the field and carrying them to the opponent's end, or shooting them in the rugby goal, while avoiding the randomly placed obstacles at the same time. Each team has a one main robot and an optional small assisting robot."
Aimbots have been around in CS for years. Is this really news?
http://www.aaplblog.com/ - News about Apple Inc.
You know all they're going to do is run into each other and explode.
find heat sources in a collapsed building within 3 to 6 years.
Yeah, I think the body will be cold by then...
You can't take the sky from me...
Real Dolls and QRIO for me to have any vested interest :-)
Kinda like AI.. only replace Jude Law and give me Rebecca
*sigh*... how great the world would be.
until they master jumping around while strafing and shooting..
I am not impressed until I see one jump+crouch and scream 'I pwn j00!'
--- We need more Ron Paul!
We hardly at the stage yet where we should start worrying about Matrix or Terminator-esque doomsday scenarios (if ever, those being inventive.. you-know.. fiction).
Start panicking when a autonomous device can navigate stairs. Then the grand anti-robot strategy of walking to the second floor won't work, and we can start worrying.
Trolls: The high-tech version of those morons that scrawl obscenities in public bathrooms.
If the theory of evolution has worked well for us -- even if this is arguable these days
Do I detect the scent of an evolution denier? And it is interesting that you implicitly question the validity of a theory even as you cite an example of its successful application.
Nope, when they master capture the flag, how soon before these Evil Robots are ready to take over the world...
Enig? Det alt for hot det smor!
Wikipedia mentioned Quake and UT. Bzflag is also a great CTF game, and a classic.
Robots are cool and all, but why bother building and programming robots to find mines when we already have biological robots that can do the same thing while running off of water and a little bit of food. It seems a bit like a wonderful solution to a problem that doesn't exist - evolution has been doing pretty darn well at doing this sort of thing so far, so I'm not really sure why would need robots after all this time.
"I would give my right hand to be ambidextrous."
It's obviously a reference to how stupid people seem to be these days. Of course, evolution only enhances intelligence when intelligence is required to better survive and procreate--but it's a joke, you're not supposed to read that much into it anyway.
Rob
...no one asks it to play global thermonuclear war.
I vote we drop capture the flag, and just start up the tic tac toe game right now.
"Infants flesh will be in season throughout the year." -Swift
Okay, I'll bite...
The day that these robots can play capture the flag the way I used to play it as a kid, I will bow to the robots and call them my master. Wading through water, climbing trees, and jumping through thick gorse were all commonplace whilst clutching the opponents' frisbee (for flags were hard to come by).
When the robots can climb that oak to retrieve the frisbee that was skilfully thrown up at the start of the game, I think it's fair to say that the robots may just beat us at capture the flag! It's a game, not world domination.
"After several hundred generations, the neural networks had evolved well enough to play the game competently and were transferred into real robots for testing in a real environment. "The trained neural networks were copied directly onto the real robots' onboard computers," said Nelson. "
As someone who spent a considerable amount of my childhood less interested in 'organized' sports and instead playing this game, it seems the whole point of playing Capture the Flag was to develop strategies in how to win. We had a set of rules that evolved over the years, depending on how many kids were playing, what time sunset (or the first person called back to their house would be), etc. We even had evolving words that were based on nonsense - or the inability of one of the younger kids to say a word (for instance - in some "Steal the Flag" games - the term "electricity" is used to talk about a strategy that involved making a line of kids that attacked from one end - they all held hands in the stragegy so that if anyone was captured they would automatically be "freed" by the "electricity" back to their own side. We deemed this a violation of the intent of the game, so we had a *no electricity* rule some little kids couldn't pronounce right - so it became "no a-la-ca-triss" - or something like that).
The game wasn't about *object avoidance*, it was about kicking ass through completely ad hoc strategies that had to be original because the teams always traded players rapidly, so you didn't want to make a rule or come up with something that would come back to bite you.
In this way - the random nature of our game was more like evolution than the winning was (it shuffled the components and allowed for *mutations*). The fact that the model showed no improvements with greater numbers of computers is not in line with what actually happens. The best games were the huge ones.
This simulation was probably a lot of fun to watch once the program was transferred to the robots though...
Start panicking when a autonomous device can navigate stairs
But without that we'll never be protected from the terrible secret of space!
Rob
Sorry about that I missed preview, it should have read:
Perhaps it is time to start applying a little caution in our ever forward moving technology push?
Thats perhaps a good idea, but how are you going to stop it? Its not like it matters whatever one country agrees to it because ppl who thinks that it is interresting might just move. And even if the whole world agreed to the law how would you write it? Its not as if you could use "Dont make anything dangerously with AI" After all Nobel said he made nitroglycin because he thought it would be safer...
Given the difficult time the better equipped US forces are having "winning the peace" (since the "war" has been declared to be "won".) in Iraq, I'm sure that political pressure to not let any more US soldiers get killed will cause the military to look at using this same technique to create robots which will be able to replace the US foot soldier in as many scenarios as possible.
They already have a backpackable mobile remote "eyeballs" robot that can roam building interiors while sending back pictures and other sensory data to the soldiers outside. Its not far from there to have a semi-autonomous small caliber weapon carrying robot which has been combat trained the same way these capture the flag bots were.
After many generations, once the training is complete the "State of mind" of the most successfull 'bots can be duplicated and copied into as many "x-thousand" of the little buggers as you want.
There is, of course, the small detail of solving the IFF (Interogate, Friend or Foe?) issue.
And how would the robot know when an enemy wanted to surrender to it ?
(Just a leetle closer lil' fella - I won't hurt you, I just want to surr (CrunCH!)... oops. excuse me. Did I step on you? )
You're talking about robots that take over the world, right...
Well, why shouldn't they? Evolution is survival of the fittest, and this `fittest' has many senses. For one: they will not take over unless they're just as smart as we are (if not smarter). I can certainly imagine them being much fitter physically (hey can already go to Mars!)
Humans place too much importance on themselves. What we can't get over is that we may just be a stepping stone on the evolutionary scale. Maybe it is our `destiny' (if there is such a thing) to create a `being' (robot, etc.) that's more advanced that we are, that can survive the harshness of space, and continue on our legacy for a billion years into the future possibly on another planet. I don't see humans surviving that long, but I can imagine that the machines we create might.
"If anything can go wrong, it will." - Murphy
If they can evoluate, why not try to show them how to find the best solution on a given computer program?
I'd like to see how a robot could work on his own code too, to try to always be faster.
Given the fact these robots (programs after all) can evoluate/learn and re-use this evolution, they should be able to learn until their hardware limis them.
As I see it, its all about a really basic but really well done base code, who will start the comparison, memory and self-modification of the comparison code that will make it evoluate.
Thats a really interesting subject
I disagree that it will necessarily take even 10 years and it will certainly take less than 50. Pathfinding and object search algorithms are strong even today. With a combination of radar, sonar, lidar, and optical recognition, I think we should be able to create robots which traverse formerly-unknown terrain in ten years or less.
I'm not trying to trivialize the difficulty of the problem, all the stuff we take for granted as we navigate a room is really quite a lot to deal with and it is only through practice that we are so successful, but an awful lot of effort is going into these problems (I know "more than ever before" is cliche and obvious but nonetheless...) and it is a top priority for so many very smart people that I cannot see it taking even a decade for useful robots with these capabilities to be in use.
Of course, it depends on what you want them to do when they get there...
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Friday's A Softer World strip was about this very topic!
Read the rest from their homepage.
The introduction makes it sound like training neural networks is evolution. Neural networks and genetic algorithms are two very different technologies, although they can be combined.
Table-ized A.I.
Evolution always "works"; it's just that our actions are redefining what it means to be "fit". Of course, what it means to be "fit" is always being redefined on its own, as species interact within their own populations, co-evolve with other species, and environments change.
Similarly, what does it mean to "slow" evolution? Mutations occur at the same rate as before, reproductive rates (recombination events) aren't decreased by what you describe. I don't see how this is "slowing" evolution. If anything, it's increasing it, in that we're preserving a wider variety of genes.
Some people seem to forget that genetic diversity important to preserve. All the "bad" genes we short-sightedly weed out might have ended up helping us if circumstances change.
An example: sickle-cell anemia. It's a disease, but the gene responsible for it also protects against another disease, malaria. If we start wiping out genes from the population, who knows which ones would have saved us when the next plague strikes?
For that matter, would we want to remove Stephen Hawking from the gene pool just because he's an invalid?
Indeed. Even putting the moral objections aside, social Darwinists have poor reasoning on practical fronts, such as the gene diversity issue.
Some of these points were well summarized in an article I recently read on talk.origins.
Also, as tasks become more and more complex, it becomes much more difficult to "evolve" systems that behave exactly as you want them to. There are a number of stories of neural nets being trained to recognize some feature from a set of training inputs, and instead keying in on some completely different and irrelevant detail.
Hmmm. That describes my boss pretty well. I think i'll check for a port on the back of his neck.
Table-ized A.I.
- they picked the rats because they're too light to set off the mines and are single-minded enough that they work better/cheaper than sniffer-dogs.
- The article describes using cables/tethers to restrict the rats to a line of interest. Hopefully, you can extend this concept to multiple rats on parallel lines and see how that'd allow efficient mine-sweeps of areas of concern.
- The rats live 6 years and can be bred, travel lightly, etc. This is EXACTLY what the parent poster meant when they talked about evolutionarily handling a cool problem rather than expecting rapid results (cheaply) from robots.
- How little do you figure you can make your smart robot for? A few grand? And where will Afghani's (or third-world citizens anywhere, especially those recovering from the economic impact of the very wars that placed these mines) get that money, a steady source of repair parts, etc? Instructions on training, a pair of rats, and fifty yards of string/wire and a clicker could let any small village have their own demining capability. Somehow, I don't think robots are gonna be as versatile or cost-effective.
Seriously, the parent poster on this should have considered posting it as a story (unless it's old news). It sure seems to me to be a great blend of nerd-interest factor, news, and stuff that matters. Props to the parent poster and the involved researchers. Within my life, we'll likely have cheap devices with artificial noses or GPR or another solution. But abandoned mines are too wicked to wait that long.Even discounting these things, worrying about the ethical implications of hurting an animal by training it as a mine-sniffer ignores the huge ethical implications of going the other way: if nothing is done, people die or are maimed. We've had this argument: using animals to save human lives is not taken lightly, but it is ethically tenable.
> What I wonder most is how long did every evolutionary cycle take?
When you're using real robots, it takes a fair amount of time since the robots actually have to do enough stuff to be measured for fitness.
OTOH, I've seen video games that could be evolved with video turned off, allowing entire games to be played in a fraction of a second. So some people are trying to get a rough solution by evolving in an accurate simulator, and then fine-tune the solution by additional runs on the robot after the simulator training.
> It would be quite nice that a robot could adopt himself to a new environment in let's say, 2 minutes.
I've seen a demo of this in a computer game, though not in a robot.
Look for more of this kind of stuff in computer games within just a few years.
Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
Our God is a Creator God, and He made us in His image. We therefore are also creators - mimicking Him. If our creations are a rebellion against Him, then of course He will be displeased. But it is possible for us to do these things and still give Him honour. The tower of Babel was a direct attack on God:
Come, let us bild ourselves a city, and a tower whose top is in the heavens; let us make a name for ourselves, lest we be scattered abroad over the face of the whole earth.
It sounds to me like this was a plan directly aimed as a defense against God should He choose to intervene.
There is a basic fallacy in this sort of research - that evolution will necesarily develop some kind of intelligence to solve problems. Evolution will do "what it takes" to solve a problem - and no more. If you attempt to use evolutionary techniques to, for example, solve mazes, you will end up with a system very good for solving mazes - and nothing else.
This happened in computing in the 70s. Intel found it convenient to solve the problem of calculator design by buoilding the 4040 - the first microprocessor, But this was in no way *necessary* - Intel could have continued down the old line of discrete logic.
Evolution is a powerful tool - but not a panacea
Consciousness is an illusion caused by an excess of self consciousness.
I say use lawyers.
now accoirding to http://www.bls.gov/cps/cpsaat11.pdf there are 952000 lawyers which is almost enough to take care of all the landmines, and if it isn't they keep making more
also lawyers are less lovable than rats, So the trainers will be less attached.
I used to have a cool sig, back when I cared
That isn't the scent of an evolution denier. That is the scent of someone making a goofy little crack about how stupid people are nowadays, despite the effects of billions of years of evolution. There is credible evidence that we really are getting dumber.
Honey, I shrunk the Cygwin
Beneficial.