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RIAA Sues Nearly 500 New Swappers

Digitus1337 writes "Wired has the story. " U.S. music industry group says it has sued 493 more people for copyright infringement as part of its campaign to stop consumers from copying music over the Internet. The Recording Industry Association of America has now sued nearly 3,000 individuals since last September in an attempt to discourage people from copying songs through peer-to-peer networks like Kazaa and LimeWire." "

68 of 637 comments (clear)

  1. I wonder... by kemapa · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The trade group, which represents the five largest recording companies, has settled more than 400 of those cases for around $3,000 each.

    I know that file sharing of unlicensed copyrighted works is illegal, but the practice of threatening lawsuits left and right still bothers me. As many of you are aware, a number of the people already sued did not have the financial ability to fund a lawyer even if they wanted to. The question is, what happens if a company (like DirecTV mentioned here) starts blanket suing for something that is not necessarily illegal? These corporations have deep pockets, and they could threaten to sue the crap out of you for looking at them cock-eyed, to which many people would have to settle out of court (I'm not being literal). If you can't afford a lawyer then what do you do? 'Admit' to wrong-doing you didn't committ? Again, I realize that a lot of file sharing IS illegal, but the whole blanket lawsuit thing does raise some interesting (or scary?) questions.

    1. Re:I wonder... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Why not have a panel of like-minded legal experts sit down and prepare a self-defense template for these mass suings? If the cases are all the same, a cookie-cutter defense should work too. As cases filter through, the defense template could be refined. It would enable individuals to defend themselves against the lawsuits, yet with the experience gained through a peer-to-peer legal network.

    2. Re:I wonder... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

      Only for criminal cases, these are civil.

    3. Re:I wonder... by CmdrMooCow · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I guess the underlying problem is what to do about the apparent file sharing that the internet has given us.

      Suing people won't stop piracy.
      Any amount of software to stop piracy will be circumvented/broken (see how long a piracy-catch in a Linux kernel will last before it gets cut and rebuilt).

      This is one of those things that our tech is going to force us to change socially.... how/when/to what, I'm not sure.

    4. Re:I wonder... by goldspider · · Score: 3, Insightful
      "Again, I realize that a lot of file sharing IS illegal, but the whole blanket lawsuit thing does raise some interesting (or scary?) questions."

      Can you really call these "blanket lawsuits", given that the RIAA has sued only 3,000 out of millions who are illegally downloading music?

      And yes, I think the tactic has been more successful at embittering thir customers than at preventing illegal distribution of their product, and that generally these lawsuits are a Bad Thing (tm) but let's not make this something it isn't.

      --
      "Ask not what your country can do for you." --John F. Kennedy
    5. Re:I wonder... by Openstandards.net · · Score: 4, Interesting
      I've always wondered what it would be like if we sued one of them all at once. The headlines would be awesome:

      "1.2 million people file lawsuit against RIAA this month. The court system is grinding to a halt, and congress begins deliberations to resolve the problem."

    6. Re:I wonder... by Sheepdot · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Simple. Threaten to kill yourself if they follow through with the lawsuit. If even one person actually follows through with it, the outrage would be outstanding.

      Don't mod this funny, I'm actually being extremely serious. And yes, it would work. The one thing corporations do not want is a young male or females blood on their hands.

    7. Re:I wonder... by cpt+kangarooski · · Score: 4, Informative

      If you can't afford a lawyer then what do you do?

      You represent yourself, you find a lawyer that will work pro bono, you settle, or you admit liability.

      --
      -- This and all my posts are in the public domain. I am a lawyer. I am not your lawyer, and this is not legal advice.
    8. Re:I wonder... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      defend yourself with a peer to peer legal network against a peer to peer file sharing lawsuit ?

    9. Re:I wonder... by Patrik_AKA_RedX · · Score: 3, Insightful
      The one thing corporations do not want is a young male or females blood on their hands.
      They don't want to be seen publicly with that blood on their hands. Don't forget to make a lot of noise about it, otherwise they'll happely lend you a gun and help you aim.
    10. Re:I wonder... by silentbozo · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Well, given that these 3,000 lawsuits tie up a whole hell of paper, and a certain amount of lawclerk time that could be used to process one of the hundreds of thousands of other cases that are backlogged in the US court system, it's certainly non-trival.

    11. Re:I wonder... by mwood · · Score: 5, Interesting

      You've been subjected to a frivolous suit and you can't afford a lawyer, so what do you do? If you have lots of company, you all pool your chips and file a class action countersuit. There are limits to just how far baseless suits could go before the consequences become unacceptable. A litigant both unscrupulous and incautious will be eaten by his own greed.

      In the meantime, I suppose you do negotiate for a smaller out-of-court settlement or plead "no contest", hoping to recover your loss later when the class suit wins. Audacity usually succeeds in the beginning -- it's only later that it becomes plain whose was the stronger position.

      What you don't do is meekly take whatever deal they offer. You push back with whatever you have. Negotiate the best deal you can, and if that is not good enough then you have some breathing space to gather the power to force renegotiation for more favorable terms. And don't agree with false charges; just put off fighting to disprove them until you are prepared to win. In any conflict, never give up anything that doesn't buy you something better.

      [*sigh* in case it's not obvious, IANAL and this is not legal advice.]

    12. Re:I wonder... by silentbozo · · Score: 5, Interesting

      No need to go to those extremes. Just band together with like-minded lawsuit recipients, and go on a hunger strike! The novelty of it would probably get you enough media coverage to make the *IAA folks rather nervous - like roaches, they really don't like it when people start shining spotlights on them. They want the media to report people folding, not people fighting back and questioning the flimsy sheaf of "rights" that the media conglomerates have built empires around.

    13. Re:I wonder... by eclectic4 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Nail on the head.

      Large corporations have plenty of blood, sweat and tears on "their hands". My god, ever been to a sweatshop in China, Taiwan? I've actually seen the pee buckets near their seats. This was a shop making clothes for the Gap.

      Don't want blood on their hands. Pffft. If they can do it, they will. Remember that.

      --

      "The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance - it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel Boorstin
    14. Re:I wonder... by Abjifyicious · · Score: 5, Interesting
      I know that file sharing of unlicensed copyrighted works is illegal, but the practice of threatening lawsuits left and right still bothers me.

      Yeah, I agree. I used to be very anti-piracy. I knew that the labels were corrupt and everything, but it wasn't enough for me to justify breaking the law and pirating more than the occasional song. When the lawsuits started though, that was it for me. Legal or not, I'm not willing to pay money to a company when I know my money is going to be used to do things like that. It may be wrong of me to pirate, but IMHO what they're doing is more wrong than what I'm doing.

    15. Re:I wonder... by mwood · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Security measures rarely stop anything in the long run, but they do slow it down and thin it out. Good measures can abate the problem to a level one can live with.

      One helpful social change would be to *stop cheering the thieves on*. If you dislike the big labels, fine, but don't lionize criminal behavior just because it hurts someone you dislike. History seems to show that "the enemy of my enemy will probably turn and attack me next." I don't want to hang around with dishonest people; I get a crick in my neck from watching my back all the time.

      If you want to oppose incorrect behavior, the most productive way in the long run is to oppose it with correct behavior, not more incorrect behavior. Reward good behavior by doing business with good people. Refuse to reward bad behavior -- *anyone's* bad behavior -- and find ways to punish it *properly*.

    16. Re:I wonder... by the_mad_poster · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Not to go about trying to legitamize the booger-flinging little brats that run around ripping off songs on p2p and ruining a good thing for everyone else, but how, exactly, do you propose that we reward good behavior when there isn't any around? The problem here is that there are so many ridiculously deep levels of the RIAA that, even with ongoing lists of tainted labels, it's almost impossible to keep up with what is and what isn't poisoned by the RIAA's presence. Even individual bands flipping between labels can confuse matters. My KMFDM collection is clean so far, but I won't finish up the rest of it because some of the later albums aren't. What now?

      This problem extends beyond the RIAA too. Where do I go for high speed internet? I can get *DSL from Verizon, but they're pure evil, and I can get cable from Adelphia, but they're staffed entirely by morons and escapees from a Down's Syndrome group home.

      With the conglomerates and monopolies overrunning government policy makers and quietly spreading their tendrils through previously independant operations, it's almost impossible to find any "good behavior" in a company in this country anymore, and I can't afford the higher prices of little local mom and pops (beause, despite what many, many very stupid people say, the economy is still a shithole).

      It's hard to reward good behavior when there isn't any....

      --
      Alito: A vote for Alito is a punch in the eye to put that bitch back in her place!
    17. Re:I wonder... by Avallach · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Their unethical behavior does not necessitate yours. (I realize that sometimes this does happen, but this is not one of those cases.) You can live without music, in the end, or find music from other sources. Your refusal to give any further money to the RIAA through its various tentacles is admirable, but to use an admirable behavior to justify an unethical one is a dangerous precedent. Boycott them entirely and buy from independant artists instead. It's generally better music anyways, IMO.

    18. Re:I wonder... by Buzz_Litebeer · · Score: 4, Insightful

      File sharing is definately ILLEGAL!

      The thing is, its not UNETHICAL.

      There is a big difference. Ethical actions can be illegal, and Unethical actions can be legal.

      LEgality has nothing to do whether an action is right or wrong.

      --
      If you don't vote, you don't matter, so don't waste your time telling me your opinion
    19. Re:I wonder... by Albion11111 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Define correct behavior vs. incorrect behavior. Just because something is illegal, does that make it incorrect to do it? I mean who determines what's incorrect and what's wrong? God? Government? Ourselves? I think it's incorrect behavior to use current marketing techniques to limit music and film to a company's whim. I believe correct behavior is to allow ALL people to experience all music without having to worry about stealing money from the grocery fund to do it. You tell me who's legally offering all music freely and I will "Reward good behavior by doing business with good people."

      But I also understand the consequences of my actions. I understand that by not abiding by the laws of the land I must pay the penalties when I am caught doing so, and I will stand by that.

      -Al

    20. Re:I wonder... by iminplaya · · Score: 4, Insightful

      One helpful social change would be to *stop cheering the thieves on*.

      Let's travel back to say 1830...If I "stole" somebody's slave and set him free, am I really stealing? To the owner and possibly the gov't of the time, yes. However, I feel I have the "moral high ground"(favorite phrase of mine lately) in setting a person free that nobody has a right to own, even if society says otherwise. What's being done is merely against the law. It doesn't mean that it's wrong. Many times the law is wrong, and has to be made, by violations, to be unenforceable. The controlled substances act is a good example. Weed was made illegal, not for the benefit of society in general, but simply to round up and deport the Mexicans out of California during the depression. The law is wrong, but too many people believe the propaganda, and thus will be difficult to repeal. This is one reason democracy is called tyranny by the majority.
      The selling of copies of information is no longer a viable business. And if you want to know who is really hurt by P2P, it's the pirates who SELL copies as a business. They are the first who will cease to exist due to P2P. And they are probably the ones "complaining" to the RIAA about all this file sharing on the net. They stand to lose the most. The pirates who sell unauthorized copies in Asia and other parts are the ones helping the RIAA/MPAA/Microsoft acquire and maintain mind share in these markets. The net just made them obsolete. Society and its "criminals" maintain a bizarre(but apparently necessary) relationship.

      History seems to show that "the enemy of my enemy will probably turn and attack me next." I don't want to hang around with dishonest people; I get a crick in my neck from watching my back all the time.

      So very true. I don't believe that file sharers are dishonest. On the contrary, the RIAA has settled with the gov't on several ocassions to avoid being convicted of the wrongdoing they are so obviouly giulty of. They appear to be the dishonest ones. You will get no argument from me on your last paragraph. If we simply followed that, the whole world would definitely be a better place.

      --
      What?
    21. Re:I wonder... by steve_bryan · · Score: 4, Informative

      For those who have not bothered to read any of the history of this topic I'd like to mention a specific name and case: David LaMacchia. In 1994 the federal government brought criminal charges against David LaMacchia who was a student at MIT who ran a BBS from which people could download copyrighted works. They intended to set an example but were surprised when the case was dismissed without even a trial.

      The significant fact was that the BBS was not a site that charged any money. There was no law against noncommercial copying of files. After all, the copyright laws were created by Congress to protect one publisher from another in order to encourage publication. There wasn't originally any intention to prevent individuals from sharing publications at no cost. In fact the creation of public libraries was specifically for the purpose of encouraging the spread of copyrighted publications (books, magazines, recordings and eventually video recordings) at no charge except for late fees.

      So when technology evolved to the point that people could spread copyrighted material at no significant cost to everyone else why was this a BAD THING (TM)? Are people so short sighted that they believe all literary, musical, scientific activity would come to a halt? These people want to take what is naturally plentiful (copies) and try to make it behave as though it were scarce. And until 10 years ago there wasn't even a law against non-commercial copying.

      Our Constitution included the clause about trying to promote the progress of art and science NOT a clause about creating artificial scarcity for the benefit of corporations defending business models that may or may not work as new technologies emerge. Maybe, just maybe, it will no longer be economically viable to create summer blockbuster movies that require hundreds of millions of dollars to create and promote. I would sort of miss them. BUT SO WHAT?

      When you have a new law (forbidding non-commercial copying being less than 10 years old) being flouted by tens of millions of people, I think there is a real issue of our legislators being bought by very narrow special interests. Remember all you moral absolutists, it wasn't even illegal 10 years ago. This is questionable legislation being passed by lap dog legislators creating artificial scarcity for the benefit of a few wealthy, powerful corporations.

      OK, you may now resume your (making a copy of a digital file = stealing expensive sports cars) nonsense.

  2. "John Doe" lawsuits by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I don't like "John Doe" lawsuits. Today it's your IP address, what is it tomorrow? Your street address? Your DNA? Is there going to be a story on the news about shopkeepers who are suing a set of fingerprints for theft damages?

    I know that this is a civil case, not a criminal case, but I think you should still know who you are suing before you can do it. If the RIAA can't figure out who say, 66.35.250.150 is, they can go pound sand as far as I'm concerned. Figure it out and come back, or don't, and drop it. And while you're at it, don't use our criminal justice system to go fishing for you.

    1. Re:"John Doe" lawsuits by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful
      If the RIAA can't figure out who say, 66.35.250.150 is, they can go pound sand as far as I'm concerned.

      So... if somebody keeps calling your house from 555-1212 and breathing heavily at your daughter, then is it also *your* responsibility to track that person down before you do something about it? Seems like a double standard.

      And how about this for an idea:

      1. Don't break the law.
      2. ???
      3. Don't get in trouble.
      I have no love for the RIAA or the MPAA, but for the life of me I cannot figure out what's so difficult about just following the rules.
    2. Re:"John Doe" lawsuits by Feanturi · · Score: 3, Interesting

      "If the RIAA can't figure out who say, 66.35.250.150 is, they can go pound sand as far as I'm concerned."

      If you do a whois lookup on me, you won't get the correct city for starters. You'll get the location of head office, which is 4 hours away from me. Upon contacting them, you will discover that they don't want to tell you who I am, particularly if you identify yourself as being from the RIAA. So good luck..

  3. LimeWire is NOT a network! by ram4 · · Score: 5, Informative

    Sorry for being pedantic, but LimeWire is not a network. It's the name of a Gnutella client. Since Gnutella is an open protocol, there are numerous clients for it.

    1. Re:LimeWire is NOT a network! by LordK3nn3th · · Score: 3, Informative

      The same applies to KaZaA. KaZaA uses the fasttrack network. KaZaA is merely the name of the clients. Of course, the average reader would have no idea what Gnutella and FastTrack are.

      --

      ---
      Never criticize religion on Slashdot. You will be modded down for "Troll" no matter how factual it is.
  4. 3000 down.... by southpolesammy · · Score: 5, Funny

    5,997,000 to go. Or thereabouts....

    Quick math tells us that the last user will be sued in January 3335.

    --
    Rule #1 -- Politics always trumps technology.
  5. Copying Music in new formats by (Maly) · · Score: 5, Funny

    So neurologists often compare the brain to a hard disk, storing data, etc. So how long until you think we get sued for listening to music and remembering it (illegal copying to another media). God forbid we try and hum a bit of it to a friend, or playing a song for a friend, because then we're guilty of transferring an unlicensed copy to another party. "Dude, you gotta listen to this song." "Sorry, my brain uses Media Player 9... damn DRM!"

  6. What about CD owners? by zenetik · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I'm interested to see what happens when the RIAA sues a downloader who happens to have already purchased the CDs of the songs he is downloading -- which, in my opinion, would give him a right to those songs since he's already purchased them.

    For me personally, I've sometimes downloaded songs from CDs I because 1) it's sometimes faster than ripping it myself, 2) the CD is scratched or broken, or 3) I still have the case but the CD itself was stolen. Would downloading an MP3 of a song from a CD I rightfully purchased make me a pirate?

    1. Re:What about CD owners? by will_die · · Score: 5, Insightful

      They are not sueing downloaders they are suing thoses who make the files available.
      Even if you had purchased the CD/record that would be illegal.

    2. Re:What about CD owners? by hackstraw · · Score: 4, Funny
      In your sig:

      $ echo "deltree /y c:\windows\" > /mnt/windows/autoexec.bat

      It would be a little funnier if the command would work. It should be either for double quotes:
      $ echo "deltree /y c:\\windows\\"
      As you have it now the shell would wait for a terminating " . Or simpler with single quotes:
      $ echo 'deltree /y c:\windows\'
  7. Representation by InShadows · · Score: 5, Informative

    Who is the RIAA trying to represent? They say that they are representing the five major music labels. And in turn the music labels say that they are representing the artists themselves. But even the artists don't agree with the RIAA's methodologies.

    "According to the study, 60 percent of those surveyed do not believe the RIAA's efforts to halt file sharing through lawsuits will benefit musicians and songwriters.

    Additionally, 35 percent believe free downloading has helped their careers, 37 percent believe it has not had any effect and only 5 percent believe it has exclusively hurt their careers. Of those interviewed, 83 percent have provided free samples of their music online."

  8. losing the music-war by N3wsByt3 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The IFPI/RIAA is fighting a lost cause. And I think they know it.

    First off all, I have difficulties with their acclaimed 'stealing' of music. As far as I know, stealing implies that the one that has been stolen has been derived of something. When you take a copy, you do not take the original away, thus they have not 'lost' anything. They might claim that they loose money when ppl d/l music, but even that is far from certain. Not only is it not shown statistically to have had that effect (they didn't even show a correlation thusfar - see aussie music-news - let alone a causality). Furthermore, in an individual case, they would have to show they actually lost revenue. Which is far from said, because I sure know some guys who d/l music, but would NEVER have bought that music if they were unable to d/l it. So, how did the RIAA/IFPI loose revenue, exactly? And if they didn't lose anything, how can the term 'stealing' apply?

    It would still be copyright-infringement, ofcourse, but that's another matter. I think maybe it's time we went beyond our current system of copyrights and walk into the era of cyberspace. With the industrial revolution, patents and copyrights knew a high flight, maybe it's time to let it leave and try something new? Maybe something in the lines of this: fairshare.

    And don't worry, contrary to what the RIAA claims, musicians will not starve to death, and music-making will not stop. We had music long before we had copyrights, and we will have music long after copyrights have vanished from the scene.

    And lastly, it's something that *can not* be stopped. P2P progs and their development act as organisms that follow the darwinian rules of survival. When Napster was 'killed' by the RIAA, immediately others (like kazaa) took over, being more resistent to attacks from the RIAA&co. Whenever kazaa will be shut down, others again will take over. When endusers are targeted, systems that protect the user will become dominant (like FreeNet).

    It really is a lost cause. But then again, they are not truelly battling for the survival of musicians (as I said; they will survive, just as they used to do), it's for their OWN survival they are fighting. There is no way in hell they are going to keep the giant profits that they have been gathering for the last decades.

    But ultimately, they will have to do what P2P systems are already doing: adapt to the new circumstances (and forget about the former levels of profit), or whither and die.

    --
    --- "To pee or not to pee, that is the question." ---
  9. Excellent point by FreeUser · · Score: 3, Interesting

    the riaa tends to be trying to kill a swarm by swatting at individual bees. for every one they swat, a new one is bred. they'll have to sue for a long time for them to get their desired results, and by that time people will have moved on to better distribution channels. ...one of which is right here:

    www.allofmp3.com completely thwarts the RIAA while still paying the artists a modest sum (probably comparable to what the RIAA pays them).

    $0.01 / megabyte download (pennies per song, less than $0.50 per album), perfectly legal (all RIAA propoganda and misinformation aside), and none of the money goes to fund these lawsuits. Even better, a portion goes to the actual artists directly -- a requirement of Russian copyright law.

    Legal, so cheap it is almost free, and it absolutely thwarts the RIAA's ability to even think about suing anyone.

    --
    The Future of Human Evolution: Autonomy
    1. Re:Excellent point by cpt+kangarooski · · Score: 4, Informative

      It's not legal for people in the US to download from there.

      If it is downloading, then that means that a new copy is being created in the US, and that's infringing. Even if it were construed as importation (which it is not) then it is still infringing as it is pretty damn likely a piratical copy by US standards, regardless of the situation in Russia. Take a look at 17 USC 106, 602, the MAI v. Peak case, and the Quality King case.

      The bottom line is, you cannot expect foreign legal standards to apply within the US. It's like arguing that the US' First Amendment protects foreigners from foreign governments.

      --
      -- This and all my posts are in the public domain. I am a lawyer. I am not your lawyer, and this is not legal advice.
  10. IRS by Stormcrow309 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    This use to be a big IRS tactic. Go after the guys without the funding to take you on. If the recording industry sued someone with the money and the inclination (sp?) to take them on through a significant series of appeals, then I think that the laws would be changed.

    Also, Congress needs to hold hearings on this. The General Accounting Office [GAO], the investigative brance of the Congress, helped get the IRS inline. Now, my personnal feeling about anything being done is that it would be unlikely. (I mean, come on, we call them Congress instead of Progress.) But, just maybe, someone will get a clue.

    The RIAA is trying civil court because they know that they can use the 'perponderance of the evidence' to thier own advantage. If they think they are right, let see some criminal charges. Gutless wonders

    --

    In God we trust, all others require data.

  11. The problem with lawyers is.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    The problem with lawyers is that 99% of them give the rest a bad name.

  12. Re:well... by eSims · · Score: 3, Insightful
    RIAA has no intention of trying to kill the whole hive by swatiting a few hundred bees at a time.

    Rather, the intent is to minimize new bees joining the hive, while at the same time through intimidation reduce the members of the hive contributing productively.

    In the end they hope the hive will starve off from lack of contributors (sharers).

    I Pre-Apologize for the extended use of a bad analogy, but I just couldn't resist :-p

    --
    I .sig therefore I am!
  13. 24 "named" individuals declined to settle by PeeAitchPee · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Brilliant! These folks know that the RIAA doesn't want to actually take anyone to trial, just scare the bejeezus out of Mommy and Daddy so they don't let their kids use Kazaa. The risks are much too high for the RIAA if they should lose, and IMHO it's too much for them to prove, particularly in a college dorm-type setting, that the person they sued was actually the one doing the infringement. What about the wide-open Wi-Fi defense, or the zillion other instances where you just can't prove who was using a specific IP at any given time?

  14. Publicity of RIAA Court Cases by tim.kerby · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I wish people would stop publicising the fact that the RIAA are suing people. It is the media who are now responsible for stopping file sharers, not the RIAA. The RIAA can only catch a small handful of people to set an example, if the media outlets just ignored the cases then they would most likely have to stop these heavy handed scare tactics.

  15. So who's right and who's wrong? by TheTXLibra · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Okay, so the people being sued can't afford the legal fees. However, they wouldn't be sued if they weren't performing illegal file sharing. The people they are going after aren't sharing private files, they are distributing, for free, the hard work of others. This is the risk that one takes when using file-sharing, and those users accepted that when they began the swapping. The companies are probably not going after Joe User who downloads a couple of tracks to see if he likes the music on an album before buying it. They are more likely going after large-scale file distributers. People who have hundreds of songs, movies, games, and other copywrited works. They left their server on too long, and got caught. I'd feel no more sympathy than I would for a pawn shop that got busted for fencing stolen goods.

    Now before the hate replies come in, I should mention that I'm all for file-sharing. I think RIAA are a bunch of corrupt bastages who overcharge for their products and services, and underpay the real talent--the entertainers.

    I think game design companies charge way too much for a product, which is not neccesarily a corruption, but a misunderstanding of market forces. They feel they have to correct for piracy by charging $50/game, when in fact, there would be a lot more copies sold if they offered the same product for half. But then, that's been said for years.

    I think the movie industry...is still quite fair. They churn out movies, $5-8 is a reasonable price to pay for a couple of hours of entertainment. If one does not like what they watch, then at most, an hour's minimum wage is lost. If it happens repeatedly, then they should take advantage of the local library.

    Does this mean I'm anti-piracy? No. If you got something for free, and you enjoyed it, then you should then pay for it. Because in America, votes are determined by dollars, not by voices. If you vote (aka "buy") a legit copy of that game/CD/movie that you loved, then you have just voted for more of the same genre/artist/director to be produced. Same goes for everything. Feel free to sample, if you feel you need to. But if you like it, and continue to use it, you have an ethical obligation to buy.

    That said, free sampling aside, piracy and distribution of copywrited material is still illegal, and those who participate in it take that risk willingly. The piper may be a total arsehead (read: RIAA), but that doesn't mean they don't have legal right in this matter.

    -The Libra
    "You've got no kids, no wife, no job, and you're not in The Tigger Movie!!!"
    - my best friend's son, Gabe, at 5 years old.

    --
    -The Libra
    "Please be patient--The future will begin momentarily."
  16. The artists are merely pawns by zenetik · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I believe it was Maxim that printed a breakdown of where the money from a $20 CD goes. According to the blurb, about 50% goes to the retailer with another big chunk going to the executives/producers/management and something like 5% actually goes to the artist. Courtney Love, in one of her rare coherent moments, said something along the same lines. DMX is leaving the music business because he hates the fact that the recording companies own his music and he can't so much as use his music without their permission (even DMX would be guilty of piracy for downloading his own MP3s).

    If you ask me, the biggest pirates are the executives. Litigating consumers is just a way of deflecting attention from the fact that consumers are tired of getting ripped off for buying $20 CDs worth only $2 and that the studio executives are worried about losing their profits. The real victims in the litigation are the artists.

  17. Don't hum that tune in public! by FreeUser · · Score: 5, Insightful

    So neurologists often compare the brain to a hard disk, storing data, etc. So how long until you think we get sued for listening to music and remembering it (illegal copying to another media). God forbid we try and hum a bit of it to a friend, or playing a song for a friend, because then we're guilty of transferring an unlicensed copy to another party.

    Copyright law is completely out of touch with physical reality, technology, and our culture (and indeed it actively stifles the latter two).

    An example of how rediculous copyright law is, and how artists as well as the industry have grown used to double dipping. It isn't enough to cell the CD, they want to get paid every time it is played in a restaraunt or bar. It is even illegal to play the radio in a restaurant or bar ... never mind that the radio station has not only paid for the CD, they've also paid for the right to "broadcast" it -- that's twice the RIAA has now been paid for the legacy work, now the restaurant gets to pay then a third time for the same medium, and the restaurant down the road a fourth time, etc. ad nauseum!

    But, what is often unremarked about these absurd laws, is that a person humming a copyrighted tune as they walk down the street is technically breaking the same law, giving a "public performance" without a license. As is the busker on the corner, the teenage garage band when they perform at their local high school, etc.

    It really is past the time when we as a society should have repudiated the very notion that one can "own" ideas (patents) or their expressions (copyright). A far less draconian mechanism for reimbursing artists for their work needs to be devised, something that insures them a portion of the profits made without imposing restrictions on how the work may be incorporated into other aspects of our culture, but most of all, unlike copyright a mechanism that favors artists and culture rather than publishers and middlemen.

    A quick example of one of the many such alternatives that have been proposed: a tax on works sold, with a set percentage (say 50%) going directly to the original artist. Anyone can publish your book (and you can't stop them) but you get half the proceeds. As an artist or author you have no control, but you are generously compensated financially.

    It really is time we as a society started thinking outside the box on this issue, if we wish to have any kind of viable, free society left in the information age, and wish to do so in a manner that benefits artists and fans, rather than consortia of parasitical middlemen such as the RIAA (and more to the point, their attorneys).

    --
    The Future of Human Evolution: Autonomy
  18. In other news... by sosume · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The RIAA has lost a multitude of 3000 paying customers FOREVER.

    Would you *ever* *consider* buying another Britney Spears (RIAA-represented) cd if a member of your family, a friend, or a neighbour was sued?

    I for one welcome our new free music overlords and only listen to alternative music: trance, rock, whatever. It's there, just as good (even better!) and ready to be explored. I have over 30 GB (!) of mp3's in my shared folder, and run 30+ radio webcast stations, with solely music not represented by the RIAA. I'm still waiting for the subpoena so I can countersue for battery or slander!

    1. Re:In other news... by Turtlewind · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I have over 30 GB (!) of mp3's in my shared folder, and run 30+ radio webcast stations, with solely music not represented by the RIAA

      This excuse keeps coming up, and it's starting to get on my nerves. Just because the record company who's stuff you're copying isn't part of the RIAA, it doesn't make it legal for you to distribute their material. Sure, they might not be sending rabid lawyers after you, but most record companies (even non-RIAA ones) don't take too kindly to you freely giving out the material they sell.

      --
      --This is a self-referential sig--
  19. My T-Shirt sez: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    "I got sued by RIAA, and all I got was some low-quality NSync tunes."

  20. Mistaken Idenities... by Dave419 · · Score: 3, Interesting
    Who's to say that the owner of an IP address is the person who was sharing the music? I dont know how it is elsewhere, but in my apartment building there are a few unconfigured wireless routers. Which by default have WEP disabled, so anonymous access to the web is available through this "proxy". Would this be a valid defense in court: "I had no idea people were sharing music from my IP address, I bought a wireless router to surf the web from any room in my place. I had no idea you had to actually configure it."

    There seems to be nothing open and shut about this sort of thing, especially since most people infected by the bagel virus have no idea that they are spammers, will they be prosecuted under the CANSPAM Act?

    --
    ~ there are 10 types of people in this world, those that can read binary and those that can't
  21. Re:Whew! Still safe! by jandrese · · Score: 5, Insightful

    If I may be permitted to be a bit crass: the people running the Underground Railroad were also breaking the law, but in reality they were just ahead of their time.

    Once a system is entrenched (like RIAA in the copyright system) it is basically impossible to reform it from within. You have to leverage to reform the system because the people in power built it with their own interested in mind and have no incentive to consider other possibilities. The only hope the average man has is to eventually cause enough ruckus to bring the problem to a head and force the change. That is what is happening now with file swapping, but I fear there will be a lot of dead bodies littering the field (metaphorically speaking I hope) before this battle is over.

    --

    I read the internet for the articles.
  22. Where is the line drawn? by SammysIsland · · Score: 3, Insightful

    If i take a song, represent it in binary (create a file out of it), and then just call it a number, can't i tell the court that all i was doing was sending a number to my friend? It's not my fault if the number can be decoded into sound. An artist can't possibly own all the numbers his song could be digitized into!

    I can't seems to figure out what is considered an artist's property and what is not. If i walk down the street and sing a tune to myself, can i be sued? Is it different if someone else hears me sing the tune, and then starts singing it themselves?

    If i get a song stuck in my head can they do a brain scan and sue me over and over again?

    All along the watchtower contains the chord progression Am, G, F, G, Am, and so does Stairway to Heaven (and many other tunes), so what's the deal with this?

    1. Re:Where is the line drawn? by SammysIsland · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It is not about fooling anyone. It is the exact opposite in fact. It is a matter of the intrinsic freedom of trading numbers. You cannot claim a number as property becuase it could possibly happen to represent a song in some digital format.

      If I were to pull the first 4 bytes from each mp3 frame, then the file could no longer be considered an mp3 or audio file for that matter.

      Or furthermore, i could take ANY long string of 1's and 0s and create a player (decoder) that would decode that particular string of numbers into some copywritten work (or something that sounds similar). There is too much gray area.

  23. I call bullshit by goldspider · · Score: 4, Insightful
    "I sure know some guys who d/l music, but would NEVER have bought that music if they were unable to d/l it."

    Of all the justification attempts for copyright infringement, this one grates on me the worst.

    If you want to listen to a certain song, you currently have several LEGAL options:
    A. Buy the album (or single if available) on CD.
    B. Purchase the song from an online distributor like iTunes.
    C. Listen to it on the radio.

    Having no intention to buy the music is NOT a valid defense for copyright infringement. There are lots of people who ARE willing to pay for it, and do so. What makes you so fucking special that you shouldn't have to?

    --
    "Ask not what your country can do for you." --John F. Kennedy
    1. Re:I call bullshit by Luminari · · Score: 3, Informative

      Lets take a good look at those options...

      If you want to listen to a certain song, you currently have several LEGAL options:
      A. Buy the album (or single if available) on CD.

      Hmm, lets overpay for music, knowing the artist won't get any of the money anyway, and buy 13 songs I don't want to get one I do.

      B. Purchase the song from an online distributor like iTunes.

      This is overpaying even more than a CD, you pay the same price as a CD costs for the music, but get no CD, booklet, or Case, and you get many more restrictions on use.

      C. Listen to it on the radio.

      Most of the good music isn't on the radio. thank you Clear Channel and friends.

      Now What???

  24. EFF includes lawsuits in their solution too... by turnstyle · · Score: 3, Interesting
    "I know that file sharing of unlicensed copyrighted works is illegal, but the practice of threatening lawsuits left and right still bothers me."

    Nobody likes lawsuits (except, perhaps lawyers). But in all likelyhood, they will remain part of the response to unauthorized file-sharing.

    Even the EFF acknowledges this. Not so long ago the EFF suggested that the RIAA should be suing infringers and in the EFF's more recent file-sharing solution "white paper" they continue to suggest the same. (under "What about file sharers who won't pay?" you'll see "Copyright holders (and perhaps the collecting society itself) would continue to be entitled to enforce their rights against 'free-loaders.'"

    --
    Here's what I do: Bitty Browser & Andromeda
  25. In Numbers by SammysIsland · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I was always under the impression that if you do something in numbers, that was the safety mechanism. This is a huge concept in nature for survival. 3000 out of millions! My chances of winning the lottery are only slightly worse than my chances of getting sued by the RIAA!

    How can the RIAA expect to thwart something that is so widely accepted, and internationally practiced? This is the equivalent of a strike or a boycott. Obviously these lawsuits aren't working very well, and even so, the sharing networks will just end up switching to a closed system like Friendster where 'known parties' will use strong encryption to transmit data.

  26. Uploading, not downloading by Theaetetus · · Score: 4, Informative
    Uploading, actually. Downloaders are safe for two reasons - it's really tough to track, unless the RIAA has a computer in the middle between host and client and can sniff those packets; additionally, downloading may not actually be illegal. First example - I work at a radio station that pays ASCAP and BMI fees. Some of the producers here download songs off Kazaa for work use - this is legal, since they're paying the licensing fees. Second example - if you own the physical copy of the CD, you are entitled to format shift it for playback or archive purposes... say, turn it into an MP3 and listen to it on your computer. Well, the matter of turning it into an MP3 is not specified in copyright law. Your method could entail going on Kazaa and downloading it. As long as you own the physical CD, it doesn't matter how you format shift it, or even if you do the format shifting.

    However, in both these cases - the producers downloading, and the CD-owning user downloading - the person uploading is guilty of copyright infringement, since they do not have distribution rights. Thus, the uploader, provided they aren't the distribution house or the artist, is committing a crime, and it's the uploaders that the RIAA is going after.

    Now, it so happens that to prevent leeching, Kazaa, Gnutella, Limewire, etc. all put your downloads into a "shared" folder for uploading... so if you download something, you're uploading it too. The RIAA uses this to publicize that they're going after "downloaders" rather than "uploaders", but the truth is that they can only find uploaders.

    To be safe, leech. It's not nice to the rest of the community, but 'no honor among thieves' and whatnot.

    Not that I do either.

    -T

  27. *stop cheering the thieves on* by ahfoo · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Well this is the crux of the problem. The people that you're accusing of *cheering the thieves on* are of the opinion that exchanging information non-commericially is not thieving. Your opinion is value laden and you can choose not to see that, but you can't prevent others from pointing that out.

    1. Re:*stop cheering the thieves on* by rhsanborn · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Ok, yes they are exchanging information non-commercially. That information happened to be produced at a cost though. That information happens to be copyrighted. It is stealing. They took something and didn't pay for it. They knew they weren't supposed to do this. That said, the RIAA is really getting on my nerves. The tactics they've used are entirely wrong and threaten to abuse gestapo legislation to infringe on rights that have been held quite dear in this country. I have feelings both ways on this unfortunately. This first is that these people did trade tons of songs online. They did something wrong and should expect to be punished for doing something wrong. But, like someone else pointed out, trying to fight the RIAA is futile because of their resources. Either way, the people who think "exchanging information non-commericially is not thieving" are a bunch of morons. Pay for your music. I don't steal cars because I can't afford to get a nice one. I suck it up and deal with it. Just because downloading music is easier than stealing a car, doesn't mean I didn't take something that I should have paid for. Buy your music, or expect a knock on the door that you deserve.

    2. Re:*stop cheering the thieves on* by ChuyMatt · · Score: 4, Insightful
      I would appreciate it if everyone would start using good analogies: cars are material, songs are data. While I believe that songs should be payed for, it is not *stealing* or *Pirating*, it is copyright infringement. These foolish euphemisms make it out to be worse than it is. Call a rose a rose, a thief a thief and a copyright infringement just that.

      Disclaimer: Unless the songs being shared were not available on any of the available download stores, these people are deserving of what they have received (if the idiots at the RIAA have done their research). But going after stupid kids is kinda cheep, i must say.

    3. Re:*stop cheering the thieves on* by technothrasher · · Score: 3, Interesting
      Should all information cost money?


      Should NO information cost money? Your "I'm taking, but you're not losing" argument boils down to solely that copyright is an artificial restriction placed on information. The whole point of copyright is that we, as a society, have decided that information should be artificially restricted. I don't think many people on either side are arguing against copyright (but I don't know, maybe you specifically are). The real question is where exactly the restrictions should be placed.


      Get this through your skull, it's not stealing.

      The word stealing has more than one meaning. "I stole the book", "I stole his research", "I stole a kiss". Insisting people only use your definition is a political move, so please don't treat people as ignorant or stupid as to the meaning of a word because they don't agree with your meaning.

  28. Re:Why is everyone getting this wrong? by Theaetetus · · Score: 5, Insightful
    Every article that I read on the subject seems to have it wrong. They aren't suing downloaders. They're suing uploaders. You're only committing copyright infringement if you distribute something. If you're not sharing or "distributing," you're not infringing. Downloading is not a crime... yet.

    Right, but for the wrong reasons.
    They're publicizing that they're suing downloaders to scare people - 'cause most people don't say "I'm gonna go upload some music", they say "I'm gonna go download some music". Those are the people they're trying to scare.

    Anyways, as for downloading not being illegal, yes and no. If you own the physical CD, it is legal to format shift it onto your computer... Whether that means you stick the CD in your drive and rip it, or download the tracks from Kazaa, both are legal methods of format shifting. However, if you do not own the CD, then you are not authorized to format shift if you don't own the source material. It ends up being legally equivalent to 'buying stolen goods' - you bought the goods and paid money for them, but if you knew they were stolen originally (or could strongly suspect), then you are guilty too.

    Since the only people with rights to upload the tracks legally are the artists (sometimes) and the distribution houses, and almost no artists do so and no distribution houses do, it's highly likely that your source is uploading it illegally. Knowing that, your downloading is not legal...

    Unless, as said before, you have the physical CD. Then it's legal, 'cause it doesn't matter where you get the format-shifted version.

    So, the moral of the story is... go buy all of your downloaded music on CD in cash the moment you receive a subpoena. Since the only way they can catch you is if you're also uploading, use the virus defense to say that you never clicked a "upload my music" button and it must be a virus. And here's the CDs to prove that you own the music.

    200 CDs costs a lot less than a lawyer or a $5k settlement. Buy 'em used, too!

    (Not that I condone any of this, of course) ;)

    -T

  29. "John Doe" lawsuits aren't more dangerous- SOLs by pwackerly · · Score: 3, Informative

    In general, filing a John Doe lawsuit doesn't expose the unknown defendnat to any adittional harm or danger compared to not filing a lawsuit until you know the person's identify. The defendant is still protected by statue of limtitations, and the plainitff still needs to investigate the identify of the defendnat and amend his complaint prior to the expiration of the statute of limitations in order to keep the unnamed defendnat in the case.

    In general, a plainitff is allowed to amend a complaint for errors in the complaint, and have those amendmends reach back to the orignal filing date for SOL purpose. Courts (at least in my Circuit), however, have ruled that the practice of naming John Does for unknown defendnats is not an "error", and therefore, ameneding the complaint with the person's name does track back to the filing date for the SOL--See Aslandis v. US Lines Inc or Barrow v. Wehtersfieddl Polic department. (I just had to research this -IANAL, IAA paralegal on his way to law school)

    So, you break the law, either by trading copyriighted files or rapig someone. You are i danger of a lawsuit until your SOL expires. Wether they figure out who you are first and sue you, or sue forst and then figure it out, you still have the same exposure to litigation. In these RIAA cases, I'm guessing the RIAA goes ahead and files anyways to make it easier to obtain subpoenas, plus they get publiciity.

  30. I purchased 21 CDs last month by night_flyer · · Score: 3, Interesting

    and every.damn.one. of them was used!

    SWING OUT SISTER -- Kaleidoscope World
    White Zombie -- Astro-Creep 2000
    Alice Cooper -- the eyes of...
    GRAVITY KILLS -- Gravity Kills
    SNAKEFARM -- Songs From My Funeral
    AMANDA GHOST -- Ghost Stories
    EVERCLEAR -- Songs From An American Movie
    RICKIE LEE JONES -- FLYING COWBOYS
    ELECTRIC SWING -- Big Band Crazy
    NO DOUBT -- Return Of Saturn
    Various Artists -- HOUSE OF BLUES SWINGS
    BIG BAD VOODOO DADDY -- This Beautiful Life
    CHICAGO -- Night And Day (Big Band)
    DUKES AND GANNON -- SIX SHOOTER
    PHIL COLLINS -- NO JACKET REQUIRED
    DUKE HEITGER AND HIS SWING BAND -- RHYTHM IS OUR BUSINESS
    VARIOUS ARTISTS -- THE UNPLUGGED COLLECTION
    DON HENLEY -- THE END OF THE INNOCENCE
    ANGEL CITY -- Face To Face
    XFILES SOUNDTRACK
    VARIOUS ARTISTS -- SKA WARS

    take that RIAA!!!!

    --


    Thanks to file sharing, I purchase more CDs
    Thanks to the RIAA, I buy them used...
  31. Bah! by jcuervo · · Score: 3, Funny


    You missed again, motherfsckers!

    --
    Assume I was drunk when I posted this.
  32. Its all about evolution... by Programmer_In_Traini · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Two things constantly strikes me when I read about RIAA suing a group or doing this to discourage me .... or any action from RIAA really.

    1. Instead of discouraging me from sharing my music, why don't they encourage me to buy. It comes down to the same end result and this way, I don't feel attacked.

    2. Its all about evolution.
    History is a good teacher to prove us that if a company does not evolve, it will die. if you cannot understand / satisfy your clients, you will perish or be bought.

    RIAA's model hasn't evolved from when RIAA was created at all. Back then, there was no internet, thus, the market was different.

    Today, RIAA hasn't evolved one bit, they're still acting as though there was no internet, as though they had no opponent.

    But they do have one opponent : Evolution. They need to update their business model so that they stop losing money when we share music.

    As sad as it is for them, today, I can find most of the music I want on the internet, so why would I buy a CD ?

    for two reasons :

    1. I really like the band and I think they deserve some money
    2. The CD offers me something I cannot get on the internet.

    For instance, a local artist (Francois Pérusse - http://www.zeromusic.com/perusse/) includes a small membership card with every CD, that membership gives access to a protected section where you can listen to stuff not available on the market such as unreleased material

    That's one reason why I would buy his CD..and I do.

    Sadly, many companies today refuse to evolve, they refuse because it'll cost them money, they'll need to change.

    What they do not seem to realize is that everyday they remain as they are is another day where they lose even more money trying to stop us...and in the end, they never do.

    Just my 2c.

    --
    If you look like your passport photo, you're too ill to travel. - Will Kommen
  33. Moral relativity is bunk. by poot_rootbeer · · Score: 4, Insightful

    It may be wrong of me to pirate, but IMHO what they're doing is more wrong than what I'm doing.

    "It may be wrong of me to sodomize these prisoners with a glow stick, but IMHO what they did to us on 9/11 is more wrong than what I'm doing."

    I admit, my analogy isn't perfect -- for one thing, in my version both acts are illegal, whereas you're undertaking an illegal act to respond to something that's entirely legal.

    If you don't want to give your money to RIAA-member companies anymore, don't consume their product anymore! Stop being a jackass.

  34. a perhaps more accurate car analogy... by blighter · · Score: 4, Insightful
    Alright, I'll go with your car analogy.

    But I think it needs some reworking to more accurately reflect the role that the RIAA is playing now-a-days...

    Let's say that the car companies got together to form the APIA (Auto Producers Industry Association) and used their considerable lobbying clout to influence Congress to pass new legislation that outlaws the selling of or owning of used cars.

    Say then that the automakers decide to not sell cars in the tradional way anymore, but only lease them with extensive "appropriate-use" regulations attached and extensive monitoring equipment to ensure that you comply.

    Additionally, after a couple of years when the car makers release a new model they refuse to offer any of the older models for lease and instead recall them and refuse to make these models available for any purpose.

    That is closer to the situation that the RIAA is trying to bring into existence.

  35. that's why a lot of us.... by zogger · · Score: 3, Interesting

    ....want a serious, across the board fundamental change in the US. The government is corrupt, broken, out of control. Think about what we do. Millions trudge to the polls and allegedly "elect" a mostly priveleged millionaire class of people to a professional and pensioned "career" of outright "rule" over us. they DO NOT in fact, represent us, you and me, they represent and work for some fairly wealthy and exalted inteerests qwho have nothing in common with 99% of the US population. Nothing. And MOST of them are lawyers, and/or are connected financially to international conglomerates, in a big way. This is just an OBVIOUS conflict of interest. WHAT ELSE are you going to get but more complex and weird laws when it PROFITS the very people who "pass" them all the time? Then, while congress is in session, they spend all their time passing new laws,by the thousands, never ending, with little effort made to even have a modicum of constitutional review, common sense review, or to see if perhaps some of the older laws they have passed need to just be removed, a law-code review if you will. It doesn't happen, there's NO incentive for them to do so, because they control the system, they control the mass media, they control the social engineering brainwashing facilities called "public schools", and they PROFIT from it to extreme and obscene levels.

    It's NUTS. It's getting worse, there's no end to the amount of laws passed, no top end limit, we are over 3 million laws on the books now, and these people in washington are SO FAR REMOVED from what it really is like in the US outside of the completely artifically maintained washington DC/NYC/LA axis of profits area, they really have no clue what they are doing other than maximising profits for themselves and their rich buds. No clue and they DON'T WANT a clue. They are trained actors and script readers, they "campaign" by 15-30 second sound bite, directly or indirectly, and by the acceptance of out and out bribes called "campaign contributions", but these public uttered "sound bite" words have little meaning, they just parrot what their focus groups tell them that will result in the same people "voting" for them over and over again, no matter what really happens.

    The system is broken, terribly. It needs to change. Change at the federal level is just way to hard, SO, we need to elect some governor some place who can be the executive branch leader that at least can get ONE state back to what we are supposed to have,set a clear example of what it really was designed as, an independent state with loose ties to the federal government in a "union", BUT NO MORE, *full, default and complete* constitutional rights, and he has got to be unafraid of serious confrontation. That's the highest level we can hope for to look for any significant change for the better, IMO.

    The Libertarian Party Free State Project is one example, Mack for Governor in Utah is another (He has a decent credible chance, too). There might be more, those are the two I am aware of right now where this sort of effort is being undertaken.

    A success in these matters will go a long way to re establishing the court system like it is supposed to be, especially with jury nullification, speedy trials, and always having a jury trial if the matter in question is over 20$. You get some honest working class people on juries, and STOP the mostly completely criminal DAs and judges intimidating and instructiong them illegally, you'll see nonsense like in this article struck down, because people can see it's absurd. BUT, it HAS to be done at some decent level, local it doesn't matter, federal is impossible, that leaves the state level.