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Army Plans Overhaul of Infantry Gear

nxg125 writes "Wired is running an article about a seven-year, $250 million revamping of the US Army's uniforms. One of the major obstacles is going to be how to power all the electronic devices that the soldiers will use. 'They have at least one idea, though. "Avoid the use of Microsoft Windows operating systems," a recent memo on the subject directed. FFW is going open source. Cleaner software needs less energy to run.'"

25 of 829 comments (clear)

  1. One way street... by grub · · Score: 5, Insightful


    "Once you're in an urban environment, it strips out a lot of (America's) technology advantages," he said. "It puts you in a fair fight. And you don't want to be in a fair fight."

    So why are guerilla tactics used by an opposing force often decried as unfair or underhanded? The side at a disadvantage uses any and all means at their disposal to help make the fight more "fair". This fellow seems to back that up, unless having a lopsided fight is only sporting when it's his team doing the slaughtering.

    --
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    1. Re:One way street... by The+Other+White+Boy · · Score: 4, Insightful

      its always unfair when used against you, especially if you tried it first. just like gradeschool recess games/sports.

    2. Re:One way street... by Uhlek · · Score: 5, Insightful

      That's only the press you really see that in. Most soldiers and military planners accept the fact that guerilla tactics are and always will be the only effective way an inferior force can respond to a superior one. Hell, the American revolutionaries did it to the British. It's not always an issue of fighting to the finish...sometimes its possible to just make it so costly for your enemies to hold on to your territory that they just give up and leave.

      Fact is, America hasn't been in a "fair fight" since Vietnam. Vietnam wasn't even technically a fair fight -- our force was clearly superior, but our tactics were not.

      Thing is, only place you want a fair fight is in a boxing ring. You want to have the clear advantage over your enemy, so that casualties on your side are minimal and victory is assured.

    3. Re:One way street... by Twirlip+of+the+Mists · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I'm gonna nitpick you to death here. Please excuse me, and understand that my intentions are good.

      I have heard illegal tactics... Not all guerilla tactics are illegal...

      Please don't use the word "illegal" in this context. It propagates the myth that there is such a thing as "international law" or "laws of war." There isn't, and it's a mistake to imply that there is.

      Some tactics are prohibited by certain treaties. But that's not the same thing as saying that those tactics are illegal.

      I know this seems like a very small thing, but it's an important point.

      --

      I write in my journal
    4. Re:One way street... by bobdehnhardt · · Score: 4, Insightful
      "Once you're in an urban environment, it strips out a lot of (America's) technology advantages," he said. "It puts you in a fair fight. And you don't want to be in a fair fight."

      So why are guerilla tactics used by an opposing force often decried as unfair or underhanded?


      I believe John Madden said it best: "All I want is my unfair advantage." If the scales are tipped to my advantage, that's perfectly okay, and I'll make full use of it. But if the other guy has the upper hand, well, that's just not fair, and must be corrected.... Everyone wants to hold the advantage, and will do (or say) anything to convince the world that they should have it.

      Nobody ever said "Hey, you know, our military is vastly superior to theirs. Let's even the playing field a little: we'll wear bright red uniforms and march rank and file into the battle while they shoot at us from behind the trees." Instead, the guerilla tactics of the colonists were decried as unfair and underhanded....
    5. Re:One way street... by dealsites · · Score: 4, Insightful

      What will be really un-fair, is when we rely on the tech too much. Once (when?) it fails, we will have to go back to the basics. I hope that they will still teach the basics in the future..... If not, we will be sitting ducks.

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    6. Re:One way street... by Malc · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Both sides of any conflict use that argument. The people still fighting in Iraq have chosen their tactics for the same reason. They know that Americans will (justifiably) hesitate before attacking an area with civilians, and so they're taking advantage of it. They think they're right, we think they're wrong... but they're also saying: "fuck the rest".

    7. Re:One way street... by the_mad_poster · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I hope that they will still teach the basics in the future..... If not, we will be sitting ducks.

      Oh no. America would never abandon teaching the basics in favor of letting high tech gadgetry handle it all. No, never. You, uh, do know how to do long division in your head, right?

      Actually, despite the fact that our public schools are miserable failures of education these days, I do seem to recall seeing a story about an equipment drop or a jump or artillery targetting or something gone awry in Afghanistan or Iraq where the soldiers wound up having to do a bunch of trajectory calculations on paper. Turns out they were trained to use the equipment, but they were also trained not to have to rely on it, so all went well in the end.

      --
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    8. Re:One way street... by Marxist+Hacker+42 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Haven't you been paying attention? The Geneva Convention does not apply to anybody the U.S. says it doesn't apply to.

      --
      SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
    9. Re:One way street... by Rei · · Score: 4, Insightful

      > american revolutionary war .... mujahideen ...

      It may surprise you, but both were fought in the same way that the Iraqis are fighting now. It's almost funny seing the same parallels when you read old newspapers.. the Americans claim that the British fired on a big group of unarmed protesters, the British claim that there were armed men attacking their troops in the crowd....

      BTW, many of the people we were fighting in Afghanistan this time WERE the Mujahideen in the Afghan-Soviet war. It can be fun to follow the tangled web of ever-shifting alliances in Afghanistan.

      > It boils down to this: The tactics of the insurgents in Iraq are not designed to give any military victories, only propaganda ones.

      Funny, last I checked, they had won control of Fallujah.

      --
      "99 dead duelists of Dios on the wall. 99 dead duelists of Dios! Take one's ring, pass it around..."
    10. Re:One way street... by the_mad_poster · · Score: 4, Insightful

      People with that sort of rigid viewpoint don't have much of a moral compass when it comes to "the other guys".

      People who don't understand why people have that rigid viewpoint don't have to fight "the other guys" though.

      Or, to put it all together: war sucks no matter which side you're on and what part you play, and there just isn't any justification for that fact.

      --
      Alito: A vote for Alito is a punch in the eye to put that bitch back in her place!
    11. Re:One way street... by Twirlip+of+the+Mists · · Score: 5, Insightful

      How far would you go if somebody invaded your home and imposed their will on you, your family, and nation?

      I'm fairly certain that it wouldn't include signing the death warrants of innocent civilians by using them as human shields.

      So why do the terrorists do it? Simple: public relations. The best thing that can possibly happen to the terrorists in Iraq is for the United States to bomb a mosque or a hospital. They can't defeat us militarily, so they try to defeat us from within by weakening our resolve.

      Why do you think they claimed that the terrorist camp we destroyed last week was a "wedding party?" Why, for that matter, do you think Saddam put his military intelligence headquarters in the same building as the al-Amirya air-raid shelter back in 1991?

      --

      I write in my journal
    12. Re:One way street... by Malc · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Your last sentence says it all. This was a war of choice, which is bad enough, but made sickeningly worse by the fact that all of the whimsical reasons for justifying it have been debunked as lies... how short GWB wishes peoples memories are as he now turns it in to an issue of freedom and ridding Iraq of an evil dictator. Yes war sucks, and this current situation should never have been made possible. People can finger point at the Iraqi immoral tactics as much as they like, but the point is moot as they really shouldn't have been given the opportunity in the first place.

    13. Re:One way street... by Martin+Blank · · Score: 3, Insightful

      From the Third Geneva Convention:

      Art. 4. A. Prisoners of war, in the sense of the present Convention, are persons belonging to one of the following categories, who have fallen into the power of the enemy:

      (1) Members of the armed forces of a Party to the conflict, as well as members of militias or volunteer corps forming part of such armed forces.

      (2) Members of other militias and members of other volunteer corps, including those of organized resistance movements, belonging to a Party to the conflict and operating in or outside their own territory, even if this territory is occupied, provided that such militias or volunteer corps, including such organized resistance movements, fulfil the following conditions:[ (a) that of being commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates; (b) that of having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance; (c) that of carrying arms openly; (d) that of conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war.

      (3) Members of regular armed forces who profess allegiance to a government or an authority not recognized by the Detaining Power.

      (4) Persons who accompany the armed forces without actually being members thereof, such as civilian members of military aircraft crews, war correspondents, supply contractors, members of labour units or of services responsible for the welfare of the armed forces, provided that they have received authorization, from the armed forces which they accompany, who shall provide them for that purpose with an identity card similar to the annexed model.

      (5) Members of crews, including masters, pilots and apprentices, of the merchant marine and the crews of civil aircraft of the Parties to the conflict, who do not benefit by more favourable treatment under any other provisions of international law.

      (6) Inhabitants of a non-occupied territory, who on the approach of the enemy spontaneously take up arms to resist the invading forces, without having had time to form themselves into regular armed units, provided they carry arms openly and respect the laws and customs of war.

      B. The following shall likewise be treated as prisoners of war under the present Convention: (1) Persons belonging, or having belonged, to the armed forces of the occupied country, if the occupying Power considers it necessary by reason of such allegiance to intern them, even though it has originally liberated them while hostilities were going on outside the territory it occupies, in particular where such persons have made an unsuccessful attempt to rejoin the armed forces to which they belong and which are engaged in combat, or where they fail to comply with a summons made to them with a view to internment.

      (2) The persons belonging to one of the categories enumerated in the present Article, who have been received by neutral or non-belligerent Powers on their territory and whom these Powers are required to intern under international law, without prejudice to any more favourable treatment which these Powers may choose to give and with the exception of Articles 8, 10, 15, 30, fifth paragraph, 58-67, 92, 126 and, where diplomatic relations exist between the Parties to the conflict and the neutral or non-belligerent Power concerned, those Articles concerning the Protecting Power. Where such diplomatic relations exist, the Parties to a conflict on whom these persons depend shall be allowed to perform towards them the functions of a Protecting Power as provided in the present Convention, without prejudice to the functions which these Parties normally exercise in conformity with diplomatic and consular usage and treaties.

      C. This Article shall in no way affect the status of medical personnel and chaplains as provided for in Article 33 of the present Convention.


      In essence, no, al Qaeda forces are not required to be treated as prisoners of war, because they are not members of armed forces, militias, or volunte

      --
      You can never go home again... but I guess you can shop there.
    14. Re:One way street... by rjstanford · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I'm not really fond of the idea of keeping them out at Guantanamo Bay. I would prefer that they be hooked up with legal assistance and moved stateside, but depending on how some things work out, it appears that there is a loophole in the legal framework that isn't likely to be closed soon. They're not POW's, so there's no requirement to treat them as such. They're not in the US, so US law may not apply to them (last I heard, no one had been able to tell on which side the Supreme Court justices were falling on this). But Guantanamo Bay is also not subject to Cuban law.

      The real challenge would be proving that those held at Guantanamo Bay are indeed Al Queda operatives. Especially since it seems that some of those who have been released after being held for multiple years... were not. I don't see anything about the Geneva Convention not applying to suspected terrorists. After all, you could make the case that - as in the constitutional precepts of the US - that people are civillians unless proven terrorists for the purposes of the Geneva Convention. But yeah, its a really hard call to make. And I sure don't have the answer either.

      --
      You're special forces then? That's great! I just love your olympics!
    15. Re:One way street... by micromoog · · Score: 4, Insightful
      Prevention of an immoral act via another immoral act is still immoral, regardless of magnitude. Besides, this falls under ethics, not logic, meaning it can't be proven or disproven (or "dismantled", as you so arrogantly put it).

      Body count. It's real easy. Just basic arithmetic: addition and subtraction.

      Do people really still take pure utilitarianism seriously? I guess so. The simplest ideas are the easiest to grasp.

    16. Re:One way street... by lucabrasi999 · · Score: 4, Insightful
      We are fighting an enemy who will not abide by GC

      I was about to ignore the whole discussion on Iraq until I saw this. You cannot justify the actions of the MP's based on this thinking. If you follow that thinking, then we should have roughed up a few of the German soldiers during World War II, because they were doing it to "our boys". Or, you could just decide to let the Local Police Department go crazy on one particular neighborhood of a city, because the crime rate in that neighborhood is so high. Who cares if the innocent are tossed in prison? At least the crime rate goes down!

      The fact is, if we are going to try to export democratic values to a country that hasn't experienced them before, maybe we should try to treat their citizens the way our citizens would expect to be treated. In the United States, you are innocent until proven guilty (at least you were before the Patriot Act). Just because you arrest someone, you cannot decide to beat the shit out of them.

      Oh, wait, there are a few dozen Iraqi's out there that killed four contractors and hung them from a bridge. Screw it, let's just beat the hell out of hundreds of prisoners. Who cares if they were actually involved in anything remotely illegal. Fuck human rights. We're trying to bring them democracy! Even if bringing democracy to the country means that we have to rape and/or kill a few of their men in the process. When we leave, they'll appreciate everything we have done for them.

      These pictures from that Baghdad prison have destroyed about 40 years of US credibility on human rights and democratic values. We now have no right to discuss bringing our values to anywhere else in the world.

    17. Re:One way street... by 0x0d0a · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I don't see anything about the Geneva Convention not applying to suspected terrorists.

      That's because the Geneva Convention has the effect of maintaining the status quo. It protects and assists countries with traditional armies, while not extending protection to other combatants. Sure, countries will sign the Geneva Convention. It increases their power relative to anyone *not* currently in power. Take, for instance, rebel groups that are trying to seize control of a country -- these people are not a regular army, and are hence not entitled to Geneva Convention protection. The regular army is easier to build up, because that army can expect Geneva Convention protection if they ever go to war against another country. However, they do not need to respsect Geneva Convention rights WRT rebels, terrorists, freedom fighters, etc.

  2. Exactly WHO said anything about Open Source? by Saeed+al-Sahaf · · Score: 5, Insightful
    "Avoid the use of Microsoft Windows operating systems," a recent memo on the subject directed. FFW is going open source. Cleaner software needs less energy to run."

    This is what the Wired story says, but exactly what does the memo actually say? Simply saying "Avoid the use of Microsoft Windows operating systems" does not in the least imply they are thinking of open source solutions. What they are much more likely thinking about is proprietary embedded systems.

    Honestly, when was the last time a multi-zillion dollar military contract involve Open Source?

    --
    "Who are in control, they are not in control of anything - they don't even control themselves!" - Glen Beck
  3. Is it just me.... by Dachannien · · Score: 3, Insightful

    ...or does "Future Force Warrior" sound like a bad anime title?

  4. No, there are other considerations by Sycraft-fu · · Score: 5, Insightful

    As in do you want the enemy (in this case enemy being a major force like the US) to leave your schools, hospitals, churches, and the like alone? The US (and most other nations) is a nation that obeys the Geneva Convention. Part of that is that deliberate attacks on civilian targets aren't allowed. Specifically, hospitals and churches (mosques, temples, etc) are off limits. If you are a soldier wounded in battle and are taken to a hospital, they aren't allowed to blow up the hospital.

    This is all well and good but only applies if the structures are NOT being used as military staging areas. If you turn a hospital into a military base and launch attacks from it, it is no longer a civilian target and it not protected under the Geneva Convention. Ther Germans found this out in WWII. They took over a monestary, which was protected under the Geneva Convention, and used it to launch attacks (it was a very strong structure). Well the allies were having none of that, it was now a military target and they reduced it to rubble.

    So that's the reason for not using tactics like this, your hurt your own nation and the people that you claim to be trying to protect. That is the point of a military, remember, to protect the people.

    How far would I go? Well it depends. If a foriegn dictatorship was trying to take over the US, I'd fight to the death. Of course I'd do that by joining the military. If the US had fallen into dictatorship (and I hadn' already gotten out) and the force was here to liberate me, I'd help THEM.

    1. Re:No, there are other considerations by mangu · · Score: 3, Insightful
      Well the allies were having none of that, it was now a military target and they reduced it to rubble.


      The same can be said of Dresden, Tokyo, Hiroshima, and other cities in WWII. When daylight precision bombing against military targets was getting too many bombers shot down, the USA and Great Britain shifted to night-bombing using incendiary bombs, obliterating whole cities in order to destroy the war industries located in or near them. In Dresden and Tokyo each, according to the best estimates, 100000+ civilians died. Let's face the truth: in war, Geneva Convention or not, anything is valid. And the victor decides who is to be considered a "war criminal".

    2. Re:No, there are other considerations by Sinterklaas · · Score: 3, Insightful

      No, the U.S. observes the Geneva Convention to the best of its ability.

      Nonsense, Article 75 of the First Additional Protocol to the Geneva Conventions states that torture is always forbidden, regardless of whether the victims have POW status. And we know that the US has been guilty of torture, directly and indirectly (the Canadian guy who was sent to Syria to be tortured).

      The so-called "soldiers" involved in the Iraq prison scandal violated orders (or obeyed illegal orders) and ignored their training.

      First of all, the US is always responsible for the well-being of their detainees. A lack of training and policing with regard to the actions of the torturers is the fault of the US leadership. It may not technically be against the law to be stupid at the expense of the well-being of others, but it definitely can and should be held against them.

      However, the situation seems even worse with illegal orders from high-ups and willing disregard of the Geneva conventions on the highest level (yes, Rumsfeld).

      Go check out the Third Geneva Convention. The Taliban and Al Qaeda forces in Afghanistan did not meet all of the conditions in 4A(2) (most did not wear identifiable uniforms or markings, nor did they conduct themselves accordingly with the laws of war), nor did they qualify as a "regular armed force" (a requirement specified in 4A(3)) nor did they "spontaneously take up arms" as defined in 4A(6).

      The fact that they don't have POW status doesn't mean that the US can do what they want. Both morally and legally, the US should treat everyone decently. As for the latter, Article 75 states that every detainee has the right to a trial, innocent until proven guilty, etc.

      They are thugs, murderers and criminals.

      It's really scary to see how you've been indoctrinated into assuming that people are guilty without a fair trial. Besides, if they truly are thugs, murderers and criminals, then why not give them the same rights that we give to other people who are accused of these crimes?:
      - A speedy trial
      - No torture
      - Access to a lawyer
      - Assumed innocent until proven guilty

      It's really scary to see people advocating a police state so easily (and no, the 'war' on terrorism is not comparable to WWII). An enemy who can 'only' kill thousands should not be a reason for us to turn our back on freedom.

      So please, if you're going to wave your angry anti-American flag, do so after you've been better informed.

      I'm not anti-American, but pro-human rights. It's sad that those two are thought to be the same.

  5. Re:One way street... (it's an all-way-street) by BgJonson79 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Conditional surrender too often leaves too much wriggle room.

    And, if the Japanese were ready to surrender, why did it take two bombs?

    --

    There are four boxes used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order.

  6. Technicalities by Vicegrip · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Using a technicality to justify different treatment is exactly the kind of thing that makes countries scoff at the U.S. when after the fact the government takes the moral high-ground about human rights. It may be 'legal' but, judging how the U.S. is perceived internationally these days, not many countries are fooled about whether or not it is right.

    If America won't treat its prisoners by the same standards it expects American prisoners to be treated then there is no 'red line' anymore. Soon other countries will be using the words 'terrorist' or 'none-combatant' to justify egregious abuses whilst the U.S. sits quietly by because it can no longer criticize other countries failure to respect the Geneva Conventions in their 'fight' against 'terrorism'.

    The U.S. declared itself to be at war against terrorism. The President has himself said that America is at war with terrorists who are the 'enemy of freedom'. How can the very people America is supposed to be fighting against -- who it is at war with -- be none-combatants? These disingenuous distinctions to create convenient excuses to circumvent international conventions that regulate the treatment of prisoners in a war bring only discredit to the very morality of the fight.

    This President has in my opinion done irreparable harm to the prestige of the United States in the matter of human rights. The ends do not justify the means if you are a moral person; the same is true for a country.

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