Japanese Digital TV Viewers Complain About DRM Restrictions

Riktov writes "The Japan Times reports that that viewers of digital broadcast TV, which started this past April, are complaining to national broadcaster NHK about restrictions on recording. Many of the complaints seem to arise from viewers who are confused as to why they can't copy rather than angry that they can't copy, but in the end all viewers are learning the hard way about content restrictions."

Comments

Uh oh, We've got to the explaining to do...

[LostCluster]

The scary aspect of this story is that the people who are buying the DRM-encumbered TVs don't even seem to understand what they're giving up compared to traditional TV signals. Because, afterall, they CAN record the shows, but just to one copy. It's the second copy that is blocked, and most people don't think of their computer as a video editing device, and as a result they don't even comprehend the need of having anything more than one copy.

The market isn't rejecting the DRM, instead their turning to us geeks and saying "What are you kids making a fuss about?" That's not a good sign for us at all...

Re:Uh oh, We've got to the explaining to do...

[davez0r]

we don't have any explaining to do. we've got TV modding to do! enter a new mod-chip industry. i'm thinking you stick a little doo-dad in between the signal decoder and the output to the screen.

if i'm thinkin' it, then chances are there's an enterprising korean kid somewhere who can actually do it with little more than some chop sticks and a little chicken wire.

Re:Uh oh, We've got to the explaining to do...

[Timesprout]

You can start with me. What exactly are they giving up by only being able to copy once? Seriously how many times do you want to copy the same program from tv ? You didn't create the content, you dont own it so what divine rights do you have to it?

Re:Uh oh, We've got to the explaining to do...

[Gherald]

Yes, but remember the DirectTV lawsuits? I'm thinking some similar DMCA charges could be brought against anyone trying to use a mod-chip or "little doo-dad" to remove broadcast flags.

Re:Uh oh, We've got to the explaining to do...

[Anonymous Coward]

Generally speaking, I don't record much TV (haven't been watching much of it lately). Sometimes I do find that my wife will record a show and ocasionally a friend will ask if we recorded it if they missed it. Now under the current broadcast flag scheme, would a friend be able to watch a recorded copy of a show if we give them a copy? In this case, it's not that I would be distributing anything that they couldn't have already gotten themselves if they had remembered to record the show or been home to watch it. So helping someone who forgot to set there device to record is unable to watch the show then?

Re:Uh oh, We've got to the explaining to do...

[MBCook]

Let me ask you this. I am allowed to "tape" a show to DVD so I can watch it later, right? Of course. So I record a Spongebob marathon so my hypothetical 2 year old can watch it any time. I used to tape cartoons to watch later when nothing was on, it was legal.

But I always had a second copy. The first copy would degrade (it was VHS, so repeated watchings would do that), or get lost, or get jammed in the machine and become worthless. By having a second copy I'm still safe.

So now my 2 year old scratches the disk and it's ruined. Now what? My second copy wasn't part of a piriting scam. It was just backup. Legal, didn't hurt anyone or devalue the property. It was just for me. Now I won't be able to do that. I've lost a perfectly fair right to use something I own in a valid way.

Bricks can be used for evil (many people use them every year to bash someone's skull or break windows) but bricks aren't outlawed. People run over other people in cars PURPOSLY, but cars are still legal.

If you take away everything that can be used illegally, you'll have nothing. You'll be naked and cold. But you could still use your arms to puch someone or strangle someone so...

It's a slippery slope. The above paragraph is hyperboly, but you can't ban something because a few people use it wrong. When 70% of people use it for illegal stuff, then you can talk about banning it. But when 1-5% do (I would bet lower than that in many circumstances) you shouldn't ban it.

PS: Every time something is copied, put a unique identifier into the video that tells what machine duplicated/edited it. That way you can trace the pirated copies to where they came from and shut 'em down. I wouldn't mind that. I keep my rights, and the studio can shut down the pirates.

But as a consumer I would win in that situation so I guess it's not a option, huh.

Re:Uh oh, We've got to the explaining to do...

[The Vulture]

To me, the problem isn't only with one copy, but as the article states, "Because programs that have been copied once cannot be duplicated or edited digitally, editing the programs via a personal computer has become impossible."

This poses a bit of a problem for me. At the moment, I have made it my goal to record all six seasons of CHiPs (yes, I have a thing for cheesy police shows), and put them on DVDs for my personal viewing pleasure (as it is highly unlikely to come out on DVD). Part of that involves removing the commercials from the recorded episodes.

Using MythTV with a PVR-250, I can do that (the resulting stream is just MPEG-2, I can edit it in any MPEG-2 editor), and then throw it into a DVD authoring program, add a menu and maybe some special effects, and there I go. I can't do that with this new setup.

Plus, what's up with having to insert a card into your TV? Why the heck should I have to identify myself to a TV? (The article doesn't say what the identification is used for.)

-- Joe

Re:Uh oh, We've got to the explaining to do...

[Alsee]

For an individual, stripping out broadcast flags to make recordings you are legally allowed to make is not a crime.

DMCA TITLE 17 CHAPTER 12 Sec. 1202. (b)(1)

And that's ignoring any issues with modifying the TV receiver itself and that you managed to avoid any circumvention issues.

-

Re:Uh oh, We've got to the explaining to do...

[JofCoRe]

When 70% of people use it for illegal stuff, then you can talk about banning it.

OR, you could examine the law that is making it illegal, and wonder if maybe it's time to change the law, since it doesn't seem to be in concert with "the will of the people" anymore...

When a large section of the population does something that's against the law, the solution is not to ban it, it's to update/change/revoke the law to more match the current climate.

But hey, banning something worked so well for marijuana, it will probably work just as well here, right? :)

Re:Uh oh, We've got to the explaining to do...

[evilviper]

What exactly are they giving up by only being able to copy once?

The ability to make a backup copy, maybe? The ability to edit it. The ability to run it through some filters. The ability to re-encode it to another format. The ability to send it to my other Tivo, maybe? They don't keep track of how many copies you currently have, they can only keep track of how many generations of copies it can go through. I could be doing everything perfectly legally, by deleting old copies, but this DRM would stop my perfectly legal activities.

You didn't create the content, you dont own it so what divine rights do you have to it?

Just because they own it, what right does it give them to dictate exactly how I'm allowed to watch it? If I want to remove every violent scene from a movie, why shouldn't I be able to do so? If I want to edit out the intro and the credits, why shouldn't I be allowed?

I can't believe there are people like you that actually think companies should be able to literally micromanage our lives.

Re:Uh oh, We've got to the explaining to do...

[The Vulture]

That is not "fair use". While I share your grief that some classic older shows stand little chance of getting on DVD (Get Smart series, anyone?) Time shifting on a VCR is not the same as archiving entire seasons of television programs though many people see no problem with it.

To me, it's timeshifting. It comes on at 4AM (CHiPs does come on at strange hours on TBS here, sometimes I get the Emergency Broadcast Test in the middle of the episode), so I'm going to have to record it anyway (I have to work during the day, I can't stay up until 6AM to watch TV). The only difference is that I'm not deleting the file after I have watched it - much like I might do with a real videotape.

Would it be any different if I just left the unmodified episodes on the PVR hard drive, as if it were a VHS tape (with commercials still there), and skip the commercials every time (FF/REW)? Or is the editing/archiving the episodes to TV that makes this non-legal?

As for the TV card... If it comes to the point where I have to insert a card into the TV (currently, with analog cable, I don't have to do this), or my existing recording equipment is disabled, I just might have to give up TV for good. Currently, it plays a very small role in my life, I'd rather fire up an editor and write some software, with the exception of the few shows I record.

The media needs to learn that not everybody wants things pushed into their brain - a lot of people want choice, and they want to exercise those choices.

-- Joe

Re:Uh oh, We've got to the explaining to do...

[gcaseye6677]

As scary sounding as the DMCA may be, copyright law is worse. Look at the penalties listed at the beginning of a movie in the FBI warning. Yet people copy movies all the time knowing there isn't a snowball's chance in hell of getting caught unless they're doing it on a large scale. It will be the same for DRM mod chips. A few guys will get busted selling them, but many people will use them undetected. This will be just like every other pointless and unsuccessful copyright scheme, easily defeated, inconveniencing legitimate customers, and having no effect on real piracy.

Re:Uh oh, We've got to the explaining to do...

[Alsee]

That is not "fair use".

LOL. Of course it is. I don't even know where to begin arguing it because I can't imagine what makes you think it isn't fair use.

Most people make that sort of error based on a backwards reading of section 107, thinking that is is an exhaustive list granting fair use. In fact it is not an exhaustive list - it merely lists six examples of fair use and lists four examples of factors to include in determining fair use. Nor does it grant fair use. In fact all it does is recognize existing fair use rights (as stated in the congressional record when it was passed) and state that fair use is never copyright infringment. Fair use is not granted by copyright law, fair use sweeps away copyright law.

But even that doesn't make sense because you clearly know that shifting is fair use. Under that sort of backwards reading of 107 even time-shifting would not be fair use. So I don't know what makes you think it somehow becomes infringment to edit out the commercials or to keep a private collection.

-

Re:Uh oh, We've got to the explaining to do...

[Ryosen]

>>Copyright is censorship.

Chocolate cake is rape.

Oh, wait...that doesn't make sense either.

Re:Uh oh, We've got to the explaining to do...

[Alsee]

The way Section 107 is written, I do not understand it either.

What it says is:

the fair use of a copyrighted work, including [examples] is not an infringement of copyright.

If something is fair use then it's not infringment. Fair use completely sweeps aside all of copyright law.

Of course that leaves the question of what is fair use? Well the rest of 107 is merely four examples of "factors to be considered" in determining fair use. Determining fair use is done by the courts. The courts shall weigh at a minimum those four factors, but they can weigh any other factors they like. To put it bluntly, fair use includes anything the courts decide it includes.

A fundamental aspect is that 107 is irrelevant. Fair use never appeared in copyright law before 1976, yet fair use existed before that. 107 could be striken from law and there would be no change. The congressional record says that 107 was merely written to acknowledge existing rights, that it was not intended to enlarge/diminish/alter fair use in any way at all.

Much of fair use was mapped out by the Supreme Court on constitutional grounds. For example it is almost impossible to effectively review or criticize a book or movie or political speach without copying portions of it into the review/criticism. The literal text of copyright law says that such copying is infringment. That means copyright law could unconstitutionally prohibit other people's 1st amendment protected right to make their own original reviews/criticism speech.

So prior to passing 107, copyright law was technically unconstitutional. Ordinarily the courts simply strike down any unconstitutional law as null and void. The courts wanted to aviod such a sweeping and disruptive result, so instead they bent over backwards to assume that copyright law implicitly never attempted to apply in the first place. They assumes that copyright law implicitly flees when faced with fair use.

There is no simple way to define fair use, and the Supreme Court has specificly said that it is impossible to give a full listing of fair use - that someone could show up tomorrow with a never before dreamt of use, and that only the courts can ultimately decide if it is fair use.

Probably one of the most enlightning aspects is that initially all use is fair use and that all such works lie in the public domain. The constitution give congress the power - if they chose to do so - to take a limited bundle of rights from the public for a limited time and give them to the copyright holder. Congress my only do so for the public benefit. The Supreme Court has explicitly said that the purpose of copyright *MUST* ultimately be for the benefit of the public, rejecting copyright holder benefit as a purpose of copyright law. The public willingly turns over this limited bundle of rights to copyright holders because the public expects to benefit from doing so. It gives creators an incentive to create for the public and an incentive to distribute thier works to the public. When copyright expires the work falls back into the public domain, where it was before copyright temporarily lifted it out of the public domain. Copyright law was created to encourage the flow of more works into the public domain, that is why it is constitutionally required to expire.

To put it simply, copyright holders were given a limited bundle of rights, an exclusive monopoly to commercially exploit a work. Anything not included in that bundle is fair use. For example making a backups and recording with a VCR do not infringe their limited monopoly to commercialize that work. Such uses were never a part of the bundle granted to copyright holders in the first place. They were never given any rights to relating to personal use. Once you have received a copy, private use is fair use. Whatever you do with it in your home is not part of the copyright grant.

Taping TV shows for personal use, building a collection, editing them, none of that infringes their lim

Coincidently

[ForestGrump]

Suprnova.org changed their site to japanese on apr 1. Must be because they were expecting japanese visitors.

-Grump

Mr Sparkle Says:

[Anonymous Coward]

NHK is Disrespectful to recorders!

it's not long....

[Tree131]

It's not long before some kid from Norway writes another version of DeCSS or DeDRM. All he has to do is move to Japan for a month or two...

Anyone live in Japan and want to host him? Anyone know the guys email address? :)

Re:it's not long....

[Bi()hazard]

This will probably get modded up funny, but the kids with minimal resources will likely be the first ones to break these schemes.

Consider one group that's going to have problems with this setup-the anime community. Check the links Taco put on the front page and you'll see it's a well organized international community of thousands of hardcore enthusiasts. Some of them put a lot of effort into getting high quality copies of Japanese TV shows. As soon as these DRM schemes start getting in the way of fansubbing Naruto within 24 hours of its Japanese airing, you're going to see a lot of smart, technical people with too much free time dedicated to breaking the restrictions.

I predict that people like the anime fansubbers can make a laughingstock of the DRM in a matter of days. So imagine what professional pirates will do. Even without beowulf clusters. There's groups making millions off the bootleg videos that have become ubiquitous in Asia. They have professional-quality printing equipment and the ability to make packaging the average consumer can't tell apart from the real thing. The perception that DRM prevents copying will just make it easier to convince people that bootlegs are real, and it won't slow down the pirates at all.

So whether you're getting your Japanese TV shows from groups that encourage buying DVD's and respect foreign licenses or greedy pirates flooding the retail market with bootlegs and providing the argument in favor of these systems, the DRM won't be much of a problem.

It's only going to screw you over if you're an elderly Japanese couple that wants to watch your TV the same way you could with your fancy VCR (that still blinks 12:00).

Confused Japanese customer = pissed off US one

[saikou]

I bet the "confusion" is due to famous cultural differences. Where Japanese customer would politely note that "I am confused on how this feature work. Perhaps it's just me, but I can't record the show from tv", US one would spray phone with saliva and salty words, demanding to know "who's that @ssh0le who put this piece of s..t into production"

Hopefully something good comes out of it, and industry would get its nose rubbed into real life customer experience...

Re:Confused Japanese customer = pissed off US one

[Dr. Awktagon]

@ssh0le

How do you pronounce that? Atsshzerole?

..a special user identification card..

[burgburgburg]

In addition, the broadcasters' move has made it necessary for viewers to insert a special user identification card, known as a B-CAS card, into their digital TV sets to watch programs.

The US implementation is going to do away with such a cumbersome step. It will simply require a blood sample to identify your DNA to confirm you are an authorized viewer. Of course, it will also have special retina burning devices to ensure that only the authorized individual can view the product. Visual piracy immediately punished. No appeals!

Leading the way

[Fiz Ocelot]

And thus Japan leads the way in consumer electronics. It is difficult though, as I'm looking for a HDTV. It's hard enough trying to figure out what's better, DLP/LCD/CRT RPTV. Then I want DVI, but not Drm enabled dvi. But if I do that, will they end up down sampling my picture? arg, leaning towards DLP though...

I think right now an easier solution would be to just get a hdtv card in a htpc and use that to record shows.

Best part of the story:

[Otto]

(emphasis mine)

The duplication controls have been adopted to protect broadcast copyrights, an NHK official said, adding, "Easy violation of copyright would make movie and music copyright holders reluctant to provide their works and prompt actors and singers to refuse to appear on TV."

Really? You mean they're not going to act or sing anymore? How are they going to get paid?

This guy is a total fuddite.

Re:Best part of the story:

[LostCluster]

Actors and singers actually love for their work to appear on TV and for it to be as much in the open as possible. Afterall, only the most elite actors and singers (who are so rich most of them don't care how much money they get... their biggest problems in life are not money-based) are paid based on the gross of the movie, or ever get positive royaties from the record companies.

It's the major copyright holders, who just happen to also be better known as the MPAA and RIAA member companies, who don't want to see movies and songs copied. Major actors and singers might go along with their handlers in backing anti-copying campaigns, but if they didn't want to take part in TV, then there'd be hundreds of people glad to take their place.

PSST... the kids appearing on American Idol are not being paid cash for doing so. They're given free accomidations in Hollywood and taken care of nicely while they're with the show, but they're not promised a financially rewarding expirience by the producers. However, people are lining up like crazy to audition for the show because even so-bad-it's-funny suinger William Hung is making money after appearing on the show. The grand prize winner isn't even given a direct cash prize, they're given a recording contract that they're required to agree to as a condition of the contest. It's the people who come in runner-up or even unranked positions who stand to profit more than that...

Re:Best part of the story:

[Omnifarious]

This is the most insightful comment I've seen. This is all about disintermediation, it is not about whether or not actors, singers, writers, or whatever will be paid.

If we want people to make stuff, we're going to have to figure out a way to pay them. All this DRM garbage is about making sure the way we pay them still has money going through the same hands it always did.

Personally, I'd rather a completely collapsed content industry than this dangerous, freedom-sucking garbage. The content industry would rebuild itself around a model that actually worked for everybody instead of a model that largely padded the pockets and insured the profits of the current set of middlemen.

By the time they know it, its already too late

[DrewBeavis]

The article didn't say that people were returning the tv's... too bad. People can complain all they want but they are still buying. Those of us who know better and aren't buying are either too few to matter or will end up HAVING to buy when analog tv goes away. Its just a matter of time for us in America...

What do we want?

[Realistic_Dragon]

Harsh, overbearing DRM RIGHT NOW, before consumers forget 'how things were'.

People like Apple slipping in the unreasonableness slowly so you gradually ajust to it (compare the 'no DRM at all, don't buy it and let the market kill it' position pre-iTunes to the current 'reasonable DRM is ok, it's not their fault' now*) are FAR more dangerous that the flat footed attempts of the WMA crowd.

The more violently the content producers introduce this stuff the better the chance of the populace waking up for the tenth of a second required to scare the media companies really badly and getting rid of DRM for at least a good long while more.

So this kind of thing is a good thing, not a bad thing. In the long run it'll mean less arbitrary restrictions and presumption of guilt for everyone.

*This is not a flame, this is the truth. I can't think of one slashdot post pre-iTunes (that was modded up anyway) that said that DRM would suffer anything but a crippling death because people would refuse to buy restricted products, then they would HAVE to come back with unencumbered goods. Now we see people falling over themselves to offer a misguided company congratulations because they fuck you over SLIGHTLY LESS THAN EVERYONE ELSE. Wonderful.

Confused = angry

[12ahead]

Comes with the culture. Japanese hardly get angry - being confused is already quite a strong word in their culture. In addition, the article does not mention confusion, but rather the customers being upset and complaining. Sorry, if the slashdot blurb makes such a big point of this confusion vs anger thing, I had to set this straight, before the readers get confused themselves.

I think the thing we might need to get used to

[m2bord]

is that fact that the consumer holds no rights over anything anymore. we have the right to buy the product and that's pretty much it. when you buy a new car, there is a black box in it that records what you do and it's built into the cars computer systems and cannot be removed. to remove it not only voids your warranty, it renders the car useless. cd's and dvd's are being made only to play on industry approved machines. thanks to backwards lawmaking...industry tells the consumer what to do with their product much in the same way a home-owners association can tell you what you can and cannot do with your home. the only way to fix it is to remove the whole of congress with new elected officials and that's not likely to happen. so i reckon that we should get used to it.

This could come here, nothing stops it.

[LostCluster]

The "Sony Betamax" Supreme Court decision that allowed the VCR to come into existance really may come up for a challenge when Hollywood tries to push a system like this stateside.

See, the Betamax ruling gave us the right to time-shift programming that comes down from TV stations, but that time-shifting implies that we're not going to keep our copies forever. It's impossible to keep an analog VCR tape forever because it will age and degrade over time, and analog copies are always lossy as well. However, a digital copy that you can recopy to avoid media-aging issues can in fact be kept forever.

There's no such thing at this moment as a law that enumerates all of our "fair use" rights when it comes to media that we have legally obtained. "Fair use" is just the result of things that Hollywood wishes we couldn't do but they can't take us to court over them because they're not (yet) against the law.

Right now, there's really nothing at all that prevents American broadcasters for using encryption on their HDTV broadcasts, and leaving only a low-quality MPEG stream available for those who don't want to play along with their scheme. Some stations in Utah are in the process of proving that with the current cable-over-DTV scheme, where they use their DTV channel to relay only an SD copy of their analog content, and then instead of ever going HD they use the remaining bandwidth to relay pay-to-watch cable channels.

I'm confused

[burgburgburg]

Why is Jo offering Flagness a beet? Is that a Japanese thing?

I should have watched the beginning of the episode. I would have recorded it, but ...

Forward to FCC and Sony

[cft_128]

This article needs to be forwarded to Michael Powell at the FCC. See what a pain in the ass this creates for the consumers that you are supposed to protect?

I hope this gets the electronics manufactures to lobby the FCC to lighten up - it will affect their bottom line if people do not want to upgrade their TVs and VCRs/DVRs because of consumer unfriendly restrictions.

stupid . . .

[loraksus]

More and more people will now just download what they want to watch / edit / et al - this will push more and more people underground. The RIAA hasn't had much success with stopping such a thing, (ooh, 500 people served every month?) so I wonder how much success the networks etc will have with it.

Right now, you can download damn near dvd (read tivo compressed with xvid) quality rips of virtually every tv show off the internet - and usually very quickly (assuming you have broadband and that you are trying to get something that was aired in the last month). These rips have no commericals and look even better than what I get through the cable tv.

I really can't see why people would want to actually sit in front of a TV and suffer through 20 minutes of commericals, especially given the fact that you can watch it when you want and not have to worry about setting the damn vcr or any of these bullshit copy restrictions.

Explaining This...

[Dr Caleb]

So when a show is broadcast in my area for 5 years, and then gets pulled, but is still in production for a 6th, 7th and soon to be 8th year - How else can I follow it?

I couldn't pay for it if I tried! I love the show, so you're saying I shouldn't download it? I should just forget the show even existed? Not my fault people edited out the commercials.

Only One Way to Prevent this

[nightsweat]

Don't buy the TV's, don't watch the shows.

Is your life really incomplete if you don't find out what happened on Enterprise or the Sopranos? TV isn't a given. Its relevance is likely to be transient. Transition it along faster by refusing to watch DRM encumbered broadcasts.

Greed

[manitoulinnerd]

It isn't the fact that corporations want to see a profit from their products that bothers me. Corporations are around to make money. That is what they are around to do. Producing music, television, movies, etc is just a byproduct. Don't kid yourselves. What bothers me is that are now starting to have expectations about how much they should be making (and that their profits should be constantly increasing) and have started to view all of their customers as criminals. As mentioned, advertisements are a crucial part of any "free" media. Internet and television are prime examples but the advertisers don't seem to know the bounds. Commercials have been taking more and more air time. Pop-ups were just the beginning and I have now seen some websites with an add directly on top of the page that prevents me from reading it. Because of the views and actions of these corporations and the inability for them to cooperate with a changing marketplace they will ensure their doom. Unfortunately most people don't notice the heavy hand that has come down on them, and when they do they are confused. Most people (outside /.) don't understand the implications of DRM or why they are coming about. Regardless of any DRM imposed the determined (some are righteous, some are criminals) will find a way around these. If only the errors could be seen, but greed can effect sight in many ways.

Meanwhile in a Japanese home ...

[rlp]

(AD 2004)

Viewer: "Main screen turn on"
Screen: "All Your Bits Are Belong to Us!"
"You have no chance to record, make
your time!"
Viewer: "What you say?"

Re:Confused?

[BiggerIsBetter]

Yup. Maybe Riktov has missed some of the finer points of Japanese culture. The article itself doesn't even suggest that "most" customers are confused, ...drawn a flood of complaints from TV users... ...more than 15,000 inquiries and complaints...

The only references to confusion/lack of understanding are "Customers often ask me about 'duplication control' but I have difficulty in helping them understand it," said store manager Yuki Kanno. and "But the duplication control is difficult for elderly people to understand," a sales clerk said. - both from the industry side of the argument. Customers are pissed, and they aren't accepting the explanations given to them by sales people. Maybe that's because it was a bad idea?

They suggest it's due to popular TV dramas being copied and mass marketed around Asia. Imagine that - broadcasting media and then people having it for free! I'm not saying selling the copies is right, but if the media companies aren't competitive in that market, they should be addresing that rather than screwing their bread and butter customers. I wonder which particlar media companies are behind this? The article seemed to leave this snippet of information out...