Itagaki Talks Ninja Gaiden Difficulty, Sequel, DOA

Thanks to Kikizo for its interview with Tecmo's Tomonobu Itagaki regarding "Ninja Gaiden 2, Code Chronus, Dead or Alive Ultimate, DOA4 and PSP, [and] Nintendo DS development", conducted at the E3 Expo in Los Angeles. Itagaki addresses the complaints of some about Ninja Gaiden's extreme difficulty, posturing: "It was done intentionally of course. The testers who tested this game went nuts. At first it was easier, but when the testers said 'this is too difficult', I made it even more difficult", before mentioning that a Ninja Gaiden 2 is planned, and "the concept will not change", but "it will be after [development of] Dead or Alive 4", which in turn will be produced after the nearly completed Dead Or Alive Ultimate, the Xbox Live online-enabled title which "takes the first two Dead or Alive titles, adds all new environments, a novel online setup, a higher degree of interactivity in its levels, new movies, new costumes, and more."

Comments

Good game

[redune45]

I love Ninja Gaiden
I just wish that I had the patience to put up with the riculous difficulty.
I've even managed to destroy one of my controllers in frustration. I just don't see why he couldn't have put an easy or normal option in the game, let us choose how hard we want it to be.

Re:Good game

[Liquidrage]

I'm glad you mentioned the controller.
I'm 29. I hadn't thrown a controller since Alex Kidd in Miracle World back in the Sega Master System days.
Yet, I threw it once playing Ninja Gaiden on the X-Box.

I'm OK with them not having the option to make it easier though. It was a throw back game (pun is optional). It force me to get good at the game. If you've made it through most of the game, go back and start over and it's actually not that hard. It's just instead of bring a modern "just play through, little skill required" like most games, it makes you get good. And I respect that.

Re:Good game

[DeepHurtn!]

I'm OK with them not having the option to make it easier though. It was a throw back game (pun is optional). It force me to get good at the game. If you've made it through most of the game, go back and start over and it's actually not that hard. It's just instead of bring a modern "just play through, little skill required" like most games, it makes you get good. And I respect that.

Exactly! Some people don't realize that most games today are easy. Now, there's nothing wrong with it -- I loved Prince of Persia even though it poses almost no challenge (through enemies and combat, at least). But what's wrong with targeting a game, for once, at people who will want to invest a lot of time to get really good at it, instead of at Mr. Casual Gamer who wants there to be essentially no learning curve? There are already plenty of games that cater to that crowd. I mean, doesn't anyone remember the original Ninja Gaiden games on the NES? They were tough!

If you don't like Ninja Gaiden because it's too difficult, then don't play it. Or shake your fist at the screen and give that boss another try. But don't demand that all games be developed with a built-in no-challenge mode.

Boasting?

[Andy Smith]

It was done intentionally of course. The testers who tested this game went nuts. At first it was easier, but when the testers said 'this is too difficult', I made it even more difficult

Interesting concept. Also known as: Bad management

Imagine the quote from a film company: We played the movie to test audiences and they said they really hated one character, so we put some of that character's deleted scenes back in.

Or how about: Here at Slashdot we get a lot of complaints about factual errors and duplicate stories. Well would ya just look at the place now...

Re:Boasting?

[KDR_11k]

We played the movie to test audiences and they said they really hated one character, so we put some of that character's deleted scenes back in.

Star Wars Episode 1?

Re:Boasting?

[lpontiac]

Imagine the quote from a film company: We played the movie to test audiences and they said they really hated one character, so we put some of that character's deleted scenes back in.

Yousa all wenta see the movie ANYhow!

Re:Boasting?

[illuminata]

It wasn't a matter of bad management. Itagaki knew what market he was aiming Ninja Gaiden for. Gamers shouldn't act like he made a bad decision just because the game isn't for them. Ninja Gaiden is meant for good players who want a challenge. If it's too hard for you, there's nothing wrong with playing another game.

Here's another example from the film world. David Mamet gives a test screening for his new film, but a decent portion of the audience complains because they don't understand the dialogue between characters. So, while doing the final edit, David sticks a bunch more of that dialogue into the movie because he knows that his fans will eat it up.

Re:Boasting?

[cgenman]

Interesting concept. Also known as: Bad management

Imagine the quote from a film company: We played the movie to test audiences and they said they really hated one character, so we put some of that character's deleted scenes back in.

It could very well be that the testers became complacent by the easier sections of the game. When the difficulty ramped up as high as Team Ninja wanted the testers felt the change and felt that it was too sudden / too strong. To smooth out the perception of disjoint in the difficulty curve, Team Ninja could have either made the hard sections easier, or made the easy sections harder. They chose the latter.

Considering all of the press that this game has recieved, it was the right choice. Compare this outing to the recent update of Strider... Which was truer to the source material? Which was the better game?

Imagine this quote from a film company: We played Lost Highway to test audiences and they said they didn't it, so we're simplifying the storyline and making things clearer. Sometimes it's best not to do what your audience wants.

Re:Boasting?

[atarrri]

I completely agree; part of a testers job is difficulty balancing. I've never heard of testers saying the game they are testing is too hard. Usually they think it's too easy because they play it so much. In the rare case that the testers think the game is too hard then something is definitely wrong. Personally I can only speak from my own experience and I put down Ninja Gaiden half way through; if it was slightly easier I might have continued.

Re:Boasting?

[PhotoBoy]

Did he really know the market he was aiming for? Was it wise to release a game so hard that only very skillful players could beat it? Is that a good market to aim for?

Ninja Gaiden received lots of hype, all of the gaming press were hyping it for months, it got great reviews, and it became something of a best seller. This usually means more than just hardcore gamers will buy the game. And if you read the forums of various gaming sites the overwhelming opinion seems to be that the game was too hard.

Surely an easy mode could have been included to satisfy the more casual gamer? What would have been the harm in that? I suspect in Japan (where the X-Box hasn't sold so well) most X-Box owners are hardcore gamers and Itagaki got that market right, but that's certainly not the same market as the US and Europe. How many who bought the first NG for the X-Box will buy the sequel if they think it will be as hard as the first? Very few I would imagine, and at the end of the day Itagaki should be thinking about this if he wants this to be a franchise that people will keep buying.

Personally I wouldn't have had a problem with the difficulty if I had lots of time on my hands. But now that I've left university and have to work, the time I have available to devote to games is quite limited. Sometimes 30 minutes is all I get and that isn't much to make any progress in NG, and if I die at the end of those 30 minutes I'm often right back to where I started!

Many games players have grown up, and I think mostly the market has realised this. Not everyone can devote hours on end to play games like we did when we were kids anymore. It's true that you can't please all the people all of the time but I think Itagaki should give consideration to players who cannot devote the hours needed to master his game but still want the chance to enjoy it.

Ninja Gaiden is SUPPOSED to be hard!

[Dark Nexus]

I suspect many fans of the original NES Ninja Gaiden games, like myself, would have been annoyed if it HADN'T been more difficult than most games these days.

The original is one of my favourite NES games of all time, even though I was never able to finish it. Just too hard. It wasn't uncommon to have trouble getting past the first area of the first world if you were new to the game.

Gamers now are spoiled by excessive (and therefore forgiving of dying) save points, and difficulty through gimmics. Once you figure out the gimmic, it tends to get a LOT easier. It's nice to see a game that's just HARD.

Re:Ninja Gaiden is SUPPOSED to be hard!

[MilenCent]

Credential establishment:

I played a lot of those old NES games. I've beaten Castlevania without continuing. Gone through Mario 2 -the whole game, no warping- without losing a life. I've been to the secret levels in Mario Lost Levels you can only get to if you don't warp. I've finished Zelda (first quest at least) with a wooden sword and no ring, and almost finished the second that way, too. I've beaten Golgo 13, Rygar in 3 hours starting from first picking up the game, Metroid without maps fast enough to get the legendary "bikini" ending, and over 300 hundred other games.

Mario Sunshine's void levels are my favorite parts of that game. I've beaten bloody Athena, for crying out loud.

Main argument:

So please understand than when I say that Ninja Gaiden is too damn hard, that I know what I'm talking about. It's not that I didn't finish both of the NJ games I played (1 and 2), it's that I didn't enjoy the experience. Back then I played video games fairly obsessively. I would not have the patience for a Ninja Gaiden today, because I have better respect for the limits of my free time.

The original Castlevania is a game that's very similar to NES Ninja Gaiden in many ways, but better in most respects. NJ's primary contributions to the genre are cinema scenes (which were either nonexistant or very rare beforehand) and wall-jumping, which was very frustrating to deal with.

It's not that games aren't easier these days than they were -- they are. But they're also in 3D, which is an intrinsically more difficult environment to operate in. And if video games, good ones, are ever going to truly break into the mainstream, we've got to pay greater attention to balanced difficulty.

Diatribe: complete!

Re:Ninja Gaiden is SUPPOSED to be hard!

[Anonymous Coward]

Apparently you played those games with a very different mindset than you played NG today. I have never been bothered to play through even Mario of those games you listed. Yet I still managed to play through NG. Actually I'd even go out on a limb and say that once you get the feeling of the game it's not that too hard at all. (Although I did replay some parts more than 3 times before I got past them.)

While the game sure is hard the controls are really tight and I never got the feeling that the controls lagged. (Which would be fatal in a game like NG.) Once I learned the moves I could also pull off long combos and acrobatics with ease.

Regarding the difficulty I though that the game actually was well balanced. In each part of the game you go up against perhaps 3-4 different opponent types. Typically one of these is significantly easier than the other and one is harder. Each new level the easiest is swapped for a new hardest type which makes for a gradual escalation of difficulty.

Now it sure isn't a game that anyone can play. Many people will be better served with standard games. But I really prefer to play games which provide a challanging (but fair and well controlled) experience than an easy game with sloppy controls.

Case in point. After NG I played through Beyond Good and Evil. A very nice game by all accounts but the fighting interface is very mainstream. Basically you point the stick in a direction and press the button. I actually though that the final boss in BGE was harder than in NG because by the time I got to the final boss in NG I *owned* the controls. In BGE the controls are sloppy and so I never really got used to them. (They are a bit laggy and it's unnecessarily hard to control combat movements.)

Finally I will just say that today the majority of games are geared to mainstream. If people think NG is too hard then play another game instead. If you practice at it you'll get good enough to kick arse too, but it will feel like an accomplishment, because it is. I really want more games like this, because they tend to give me much more satisfaction.

People whine too much about NG

[Inexile2002]

I was hard, but it wasn't impossible. Once I learned how to actually play, I finished the game in around a week and a half. Sure, it was hard at first, and fighting the second boss on horseback, or the first time you fight the fiend chick were freaking crazy. But it's just a steep learning curve. Once I finished it, it unlocks a third "Very Hard" option and a secret costume. Pure bliss.

There is a market for really hard games, and if you don't want to play them - don't. But personally, it would have pissed me off to have finished Ninja Gaiden in 6 to 7 hours and it would have pissed me off if the same strategies worked against every enemy. What I loved about that game what that you had to learn how to actually fight within the context of that game. You had to learn to exploit an enemy's weaknesses, you had to learn how to use the terrain to your advantage, when to use your Ninpo and when to save it. In the end, it was one of the best games I ever played - if it had been easier... it would have just been eye candy. People who want easy games should buy easy games.

hum

[sonatinas]

The common complaint agaisnt Ninja Gaiden is its difficulty. I really do not see the difficulity. I believe gamers might find it difficult is because they do not use useful tactics to beat the enemies. Mashing buttons and just killing everything that moves is not a useful tactic. If you actually use counters and the soul charge move so you can kill enemies in chains( the move the first boss explains to you) you should not have that much of a problem. Also, learning how to use the weapons and when to use them. Also, if u upgrade your wooden sword to the unlabored flawlessness, the game is even easier.

THe key to tackling games is to actully think about what u are doing and dont button mash and let the stylish moves make you think u have to do them. Espically in Ninja Gaiden, u can use about 5 moves and finish the game.

Difficulty

[dstillz]

Ninja Gaiden isn't actually that difficult. It's a fighting game at the core, and repetition of combos is your saving grace.

The camera just sucks. The camera is your real enemy, especially during the pointless platforming sequences.

It wasn't the game itself...

[nicksthings]

Ninja Gaiden is an amazing game in many, many ways. Sure, it's also extremely difficult, but not for the right reasons. In many areas, it is indeed the camera that would put you in comprimising situations that would often lead to high levels of frustration. There were some other obnoxious things I encountered (ie, not being able to change weapons or even use health items while an enemy's health meter was draining, oftentimes leave you wide open for an attack - wtf?).

I'm sorry, but I think it should be the goal of someone who creates a game to make it as much fun for everyone interested in that particular genre as possible. Making even the easiest mode extremely difficult really can kill the enjoyment level for many players (and I know for a fact it did). To those who are looking for a challenge, that harder mode would have been available.

In every interview I've read, Itagaki comes across like a pompous ass, too. How he can say things like "It was too hard, I made it harder" or even, when faced with questions regarding camera issues, deny it...that's just unreal.

Re:It wasn't the game itself...

[Dark Nexus]

You know what? The game was made more for the fans of the originals than the fans of the genre in general, otherwise it would have been called something else instead of dragging out a name that people who weren't fans of the original wouldn't care about. Not making it require high amounts of skill to get through would have annoyed many of that target audience, and I know THAT for a fact. The Ninja Gaiden series has NEVER been easy, and was never meant for the casual gamer.

Re:It wasn't the game itself...

[DeadScreenSky]

I'm sorry, but I think it should be the goal of someone who creates a game to make it as much fun for everyone interested in that particular genre as possible.

Yeah, except going the lowest-common denominator route can turn off a huge part of your potential audience. I enjoyed Ninja Gaiden partially because it was challenging (though not as hard as many people complain - think tactical, gamers!). If it was easier I wouldn't have enjoyed it so much, and I am far from alone.

And you can't ignore the fact (even though you attempt to) that Team Ninja made the game pretty fair in terms of difficulty. There are what, only two parts of the game with 'instant kill pits', done largely for good game design reasons (like under the monastery - you can't just let the player jump all the way down, but you don't want the player taking falling damage for the other 99% of the game)? Compare that to a game like the Shinobi remake or your average platformer (hell, even classic games like Mario64!), which are filled with that kind of 'one mistake=death' annoyance. NG also allows you to build up as much money as you want (via various bat areas), so you can buy as much health potions as your skill level requires. Try playing something like Genma Onimusha, which has similar mechanics (lots of respawning enemies), a camera that is literally ten times or so worse, and a complete inability to buy health potions. You have to beat the game with what the designers give you - get to the last boss without enough potions, too bad. May as well restart. Even the 'bad camera' you talk about is pretty damn good, because it is paired with the ability to block 95+% of attacks with the touch of a button, and all enemies make noises so you know when an attack is coming even if it isn't visible (another thing Genma Onimusha screws up). Ninja Gaiden isn't easy, and maybe some parts could be tightened up a little or smoothed out, but it is intensely fair.

If you just started playing games recently (say the PSX era), or if you predominently play all of the recent (and easy) Nintendo games, Ninja Gaiden just probably isn't for you. There's nothing wrong with people like Itagaki making games for the millions of old school (and nowadays mostly Western) gamers that are so often ignored by most other developers. We really, really appreciate it, and the game's sales reflect that.

People seem to miss the point

[Tuvai]

A truly challenging game is hard to come by these days, for every Ninja Gaiden, Viewtiful Joe and F-Zero GX, there are 2 dozen games that bow to eye candy and plot development over actual difficulty.
Sadly this is a curse that has been steadily gaining momentum since the PlayStation era and throughout, where the craftsmenship of demanding perfection/reactions within a 2D environment were sacrificed at the alter of style over substance. Itagaki needs to be lauded for his attidude, not criticised.

Re:People seem to miss the point

[Lewisham]

Can you please take out Ninja Gaiden from the "challenging game" list? Ninja Gaiden is not challenging. It is unfair.

F-Zero GX and Viewtiful Joe are perfect examples of hardcore gaming. You are punished harshly for mistakes. But everytime you are, the game slaps you into line and almost shows you what you did wrong, right before it tears into your chest and pulls out your heart. That split-second of clarity: "Oh f**k, I should have gone left" Challenging? Yes. Joypad breaking? Yes. Unfair? No. You just need to be better.

I'd class myself as a hardcore gamer. But I play games to have fun. I don't mind being challenged, just as I don't mind being cotton-wooled through a game, as long as the experience is sound. Ninja Gaiden was a tedious game of "On your tenth death, maybe I'll let you progress, but you won't know what you did differently". It is the first, and only game, I have ever taken back to the store. It was ridiculous. I could lose 3/4 (if not all) of my health for simply not blocking for the 3ms I thought I might get a hit in. And if I did block all the time, well then heck, let's let the enemies hurt you some other way, instead (slitting your throat, throwing you around). And that was fine. A quick class in Don't Be A Wuss 101. And then the ninjas came. With exploding shuirkens. If you were stupid enough to stop blocking:
a) You'd get a shuriken on your ass, and BOOM.
b) You'd get chopped up.
There was no middle ground. I never felt like I had any other choice, but to be punished. Any hits I landed were luck, not skill. I have absolutely no intention of playing a game for 20 hours before I have fun. I suggest people that don't get it should grab a dictionary and look up the noun "game".

Ninja Gaiden's difficulty is not something that guy should be proud of. He should be utterly ashamed that he felt so damn clever that he was willing to sacrifice what could well be a bloody great game to the Alter of Hardcore. Give us the damn option of how much we want to be hurt, don't tell us.

As it stands, Prince of Persia remains the far better game, despite the fact it was damn easy. My second round through yielded a finish of five and a half hours. But damn, I looked and felt cool doing it.

Ninja Gaiden was desparate to make you look like an idiot.

Hard games are for a niche market

[id(-208)]

While I will most certainly agree that a lot of games are a bit too eays now, Ninja Gaiden was pretty difficult. A learning curve should be gradual, and having such a difficult boss (the horsemen) so early in the game is a strong deterrant for many gamers. I have been playing computer and console games for over 25 years, and I have to say that NG is one of the more difficult ones out there.

On one hand, making such a difficult game can be good, for some reasons cited by previous posters. But on the other hand, it is bad for several reasons, one of which is this:
Harder games are for a niche market.

NG was not geared for a few elite gamers. It was made and heavily marketed for as large an audience as possible. And large audiences like games easier than what NG is. So a fe wposters here and onl lots of gaming boards constantly ridicule the majority of people who say it is hard by saying "I don't see why everyone says it is so hard. I beat the flying demon woman on my 2nd try." Well congratulations for you.. You're in the top 2% of the people who bought the game. And consequently, that isn't enough to keep large game development companies in business. Here in Japan, NG sold well at the beginning, but I sure as hell see a lot of copies of it at used game stores now, unlike GTA3.

If they gear the sales of a game for a wide audience, then they need to develop it for that wide audience. And having added in a difficulty select at the beginning of the game - of the "EASY" variety - would have helped the game be more enjoyable for a large number of people. I never finished NG because like a growing number of gamers out there, I have a job, and a life which is not just me playing games at home. My game time is limited, which means I will only play games that I enjoy. And constantly getting my arse handed to me by an incredibly difficult boss on the 2nd level of a majorly hyped up "you have to have this game" release does not make me want to keep playing. I'd rather go back and play some GTA:VC, which I beat a year and a half ago at 100%, than keep losing over and over and over and over again.

Making NG so difficult is going to hurt the initial release sales of NG2, I am quite sure, because a large number of people who thought the first installment was too difficult will think the same holds true for the sequel.

Anyways.. that is just my take on it.

Itagaki is crazy

[Anonymous Coward]

Having this interview translated by what I assume was a marketing flack probably evened out some of his lunacy. From the times I've seen him at events and the interviews I've read, it seems that he always wears a lizard skin jacket, sunglasses, jeans and boots. He's quite tall for a Japanese guy - over 6 feet with the boots on, so he has a certain impact. But that's just clothes - anyone can dress like a rockstar.

It's the way he interacts with people and the things he says when there's no minder around that lets you know he's totally insane. Check out Tim Roberts' account of meeting him at E3 http://www.livejournal.com/users/108/42763.html, or the Tokyopia interview.

Mind you, when I say that he's crazy, that's at least half-positive. He seems to pretty much do what he wants, and he's been successful enough that obviously Tecmo is happy to let him have his way with things. That means that his games have been designed with only one purpose in mind: making him happy. That's miles better than a crappy movie-license game, or some other forgettable game that's been designed by committee. Ninja Gaiden may be too hard, but it's certainly original - we could use more lunatics like Itagaki.

OB: Penny arcade comic

[satanami69]

Apropos.

http://www.penny-arcade.com/view.php3?date=2004-03 -08

Wow. (Re:Boasting?)

[smcn]

I completely understand a person having a preference towards games that are harder, but insulting people who enjoy RPGs or other games that don't require masterful hand-eye coordination is ridiculous.

Games are meant to be fun, not a contest to see who's more "leet". Grow up a little.