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ESA Completes Important Step Toward Vega Launcher

Sven-Erik writes "ESA is reporting that 'An important step forward has just been made in the development of ESA's Vega launcher. After several months' work at the Guiana Propellant Plant at Europe's Spaceport the inert casting of the main Vega motor has been successfully carried out.' The 30-meter tall Vega launcher will be capable of placing a 1.5 ton payload into polar orbit, and it is scheduled for its first launch in 2006 from Europe's Spaceport in French Guiana, where the Ariane 1 launch facilities are being adapted for its use. It will be a perfect complement to ESA's large Ariane 5 and the medium-classed Soyuz."

53 of 158 comments (clear)

  1. Re:Could someone... by Jugalator · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Because it makes launching payloads between 300 and 2000 kg cheap, I guess. ( at least relatively speaking :-) )

    --
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  2. Re:Could someone... by Polkyb · · Score: 3, Informative
    Vega will make access to space easier, quicker and cheaper.

    It will also be sharing technology with the Ariane-5 program

    --
    I've never shoed a horse, but I once told a donkey to piss off!
  3. Re:Could someone... by Googo · · Score: 5, Informative

    Text on the Vega.

    Vega

    Main Data Vega
    Height 30 m
    Diameter 3 m
    Liftoff mass 136 tonnes
    Payload mass* 1500 kg

    Although there is a growing tendency for satellites to become larger, there is still a need for a small launcher to place 300 to 2000 kg satellites, economically, into the polar and low-Earth orbits used for many scientific and Earth observation missions.

    Europes answer to these needs is Vega, named after the second brightest star in the northern hemisphere. Vega will make access to space easier, quicker and cheaper.

    Costs are being kept to a minimum by using advanced low-cost technologies and by introducing an optimised synergy with existing production facilities used for Ariane launchers.

    Vega has been designed as a single body launcher with three solid propulsion stages and an additional liquid propulsion upper module used for attitude and orbit control, and satellite release. Unlike most small launchers, Vega will be able to place multiple payloads into orbit.

    Development of the Vega launcher started in 1998. The first launch is planned for 2006 from Europe's Spaceport in French Guiana where the Ariane 1 launch facilities are being adapted for its use.

    * Launch in circular orbit, 90inclination, 700 km

    So basically it is europes light payload rocket.

  4. Useless by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Vega is a LEO (Low Earth Orbit) launcher. There isn't a commercial market for low earth orbit satellites. Commercial satellites want GEO (geosynchronous orbit). The US military is not going to outsource to ESA (they aren't Indian). So I dont see the point of Vega. If I was doing research and needed a LEO for taking pictures or whatever, I would go with the cheaper reliable Chinese launcher.

    ESO need to concentrate on improving Ariane 5 reliability and cost.

    Or yeah, and ESO needs to build the OWL!! This earth based telescope should be able to image some planets better than space probes that visited them up and saw them up close.

    http://www.eso.org/projects/owl/

    1. Re:Useless by Polkyb · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I give you two quotes from TFA

      Costs are being kept to a minimum by using advanced low-cost technologies and by introducing an optimised synergy with existing production facilities used for Ariane launchers.

      and

      Unlike most small launchers, Vega will be able to place multiple payloads into orbit.

      Seems to me like two damn good reasons to me. Another, being; If you were Europe, would you REALLY want the Chinese to launch your Top Secret military satelites...?

      --
      I've never shoed a horse, but I once told a donkey to piss off!
    2. Re:Useless by dekeji · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I think Europe just wants a complete complement of space technologies at their disposal; they don't want to depend on either the Americans or the Chinese to provide it for them, neither for research satellites nor for military ones.

    3. Re:Useless by ebassi · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Vega is a LEO (Low Earth Orbit) launcher. There isn't a commercial market for low earth orbit satellites.

      Yes, there is a market. Universities and small companies, for instance.

      I would go with the cheaper reliable Chinese launcher

      What part of "competition" you did not understand?

      --
      You can save space. Or you can save time. Don't ever count on saving both at once. -- First Law of Algorithmic Analisys
    4. Re:Useless by HenrikOxUK · · Score: 2, Informative

      ESO need to concentrate on improving Ariane 5 reliability and cost.

      The European Southern Observatory (ESO), makes telecopes (like VLT and OWL), not rockets. You've mixed up ESO and ESA (European Space Agency).

  5. Is it any good? by dj245 · · Score: 3, Informative
    I read the articles, (yep, must be new here), but they don't indicate whether its a very complicated design or a very simple one. Generally, the simplest design that can do the job is the best, but the shuttle is not a good example of this. Anyone have any thoughts? Is it more complex than the Ariane? Does it have more fiddly bits?

    The Soyuz design is a good one because it is proven, and very very simple. No fiddly bits. You could probably launch in a hurricane if you absolutely had to: little short of a thunderstorm over the pad will stop the launch. This is no space shuttle, and weather-related scrubs are almost unheard of here.

    On the other hand, the Arianes have fiddly bits and can't launch in bad weather. So where does this thing fall, somewhere in between? Even more fiddly than Ariane? Less complex than Soyuz?

    --
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    1. Re:Is it any good? by mj_1903 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      As all its stages are solid fuel (except the final stage), Vega doesn't need the hazards of complex machinery, fuelling, insulation and other things that can possibly make it fail or delay a launch.

      What I find interesting is that it is such a small vehicle. I imagine its going to push some g's on launch because its thrust to weight ratio is quite high. I haven't seen any numbers to support this theory though.

    2. Re:Is it any good? by Vadim+Makarov · · Score: 2, Interesting
      The Soyuz design is a good one because it is proven, and very very simple. No fiddly bits. You could probably launch in a hurricane if you absolutely had to.

      This is because Soyuz booster is based on an early days military design, or should we say multiple-use design. I believe at one time a couple of these boosters were on standby with nuclear warheards attached (until USSR installed better ICBMs). You don't want weather over the launch pad to preclude a nuclear strike, don't you? No wonder the boosters were designed to be all-weather from the beginning.

      --
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  6. Why not fuel free? by Prof.Phreak · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Is anyone researching fuel free launches?

    I mean things like shooting the payload from a cannon or something... ...or possibly using a HUGE rubber band to send a capsule flying into space.

    As long as we need 100*X pounds of fuel to launch X pounds into space, space travel will remain uneconomical for most purposes.

    --

    "If anything can go wrong, it will." - Murphy

    1. Re:Why not fuel free? by mrright · · Score: 3, Informative

      The most promising propellantless launch technology is rotating tethers.

      Check out this for plenty of information about what is possible. here is a paper about a tether for LEO to GTO boost that could be built today.

      All the other things like electric catapults are much too large to be practical if you want reasonable g-forces.

      --

      --
      Private property is the central institution of a free society (David Friedman)
    2. Re:Why not fuel free? by grozzie2 · · Score: 4, Informative
      This was being done in the early 60's by a Canadian research team. Google for Harp Gun, and read here . Basically they started with 7 inch guns, and were shooting probes up to do high altitude research. In phase 2 of the project they were using a 16 inch gun, and projectiles that included a rocket motor. The 16 inch gun was capable of lifting a 200lb projectile to an altitude of 90 miles.

      The projectiles they were firing (the martlett) had a bunch of electronics in them, and they had designed them with a small rocket motor to maneuver at that altitude, not sure if they actually flew any with the motor.

      The entire story is quite interesting, after the Harp project ended, Gerald Bull (the engineer behind it) went on to continue the research covertly funded by the cia initially. When he had a major falling out with the cia, he worked with other foriegn governments to continue the upscaling of the concept. He was assasinated when he built one that was capable of launching a 1000kg projectile over a distance of a thousand miles, before they had a chance to fire it. Interestingly, that one was capable of orbiting a much smaller projectile.

    3. Re:Why not fuel free? by imsabbel · · Score: 3, Informative

      The BIG problem is that with such a lauch the vehicle will be fastest where there is the most air resistance. You cant just easily get something to mach 20 on ground level without it burning up.

      One suggestion is building a HUGE railgun into a mountain range of decent height. That way you get your highest speed in a height of 4-5km, where air density is already quite a bit lower than on ground, and you can spread your acceleration over a minute or so.

      --
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    4. Re:Why not fuel free? by AndroidCat · · Score: 3, Informative

      A search of "Babylon gun" will get you links. It was never finished--a certain neighbour of Iraq was not happy about the likely practical uses.

      --
      One line blog. I hear that they're called Twitters now.
    5. Re:Why not fuel free? by DerekLyons · · Score: 2, Informative
      Is anyone researching fuel free launches?
      Why should they? Fuel is *cheap*. (Filling the Shuttle's various fuel tanks costs something under 10 million dollars.) Rocket scientists wish they could get launch costs down to where the fuel costs dominate (as it does for air travel), but that's somewhere down around a 10-15 fold reduction in costs from current levels, I.E. quite distant.
      I mean things like shooting the payload from a cannon or something... ...or possibly using a HUGE rubber band to send a capsule flying into space.
      A lot of folks have looked at various fuel-free options, but every one of them so far falls into one of three categories;
      • Don't work when you run the real numbers. (Example: Electromagnetic cannon.)
      • Works, but doesn't actually save any money. (Example: Gun launches.)
      • Works, but requires such an enourmous upfront cost that there does not seem enough launches to be available to amortize the capital costs. (Example: Beamed power.)
    6. Re:Why not fuel free? by Christopher+Thomas · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Is anyone researching fuel free launches?

      I mean things like shooting the payload from a cannon or something..


      The main problem is that any reasonable gun size requires thousands of Gs acceleration. That eliminates most cargo options (so you still have to use another launcher type for much of your cargo).

      You're also limited by the atmosphere. While you *could* try to build a 1000-km long human-rated mass driver, you'd be plowing through the atmosphere at Mach Silly for most of the acceleration distance, and for hundreds of kilometres after launch (you're launching at a very shallow angle).

      Techniques that try to deliver energy remotely while using atmosphere or carried mass as reaction mass run into the same problems as scramjets (for the first case) and conventional rockets (for the second case), in addition to requiring a large number of expensive installations for laser launchers or what-have-you.

      Techniques that involve climbing up or being scooped up by an orbiting object require better materials than we can currently manufacture in useful quantities. In 30-50 years, this may change, but it's not a sure thing yet.

      In summary, while there has been and still is a lot of research about fuel-free launch schemes, none of them are practical at this time.

      As long as we need 100*X pounds of fuel to launch X pounds into space, space travel will remain uneconomical for most purposes.

      Not true. Your cargo to craft (mostly fuel) mass ratio is 1:100 at worst. For a fuel as cheap as gasoline (and liquid oxygen is about this cheap in bulk), you get around $100/kg. Not cheap as dirt, but hardly cost-prohibitive. It's the vehicle itself and the facilities that drive the cost.

      The problem is that right now the vehicles and the support facilities cost a _lot_ to build and maintain and staff and insure. This is where most of the money goes. Better materials and mature designs will reduce vehicle costs, which will help increase volume, which will further reduce costs from mass production and facility management scaling for at least a little while, but the cycle proceeds slowly. Give it time.

      The last big experiment (reusable vehicles to save on vehicle costs) failed, due to increased complexity (for all designs), difficulty and expense of between-flight overhauls (for the shuttle), and difficulty meeting craft requirements with existing materials (all reusable craft, but especially SSTO craft). Now the focus seems to have shifted on reducing costs for disposable vehicles. We'll see in a couple of decades how this turns out.

  7. Re:Could someone... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

    The Vega launcher is intended to be much simpler and cheaper than Ariane (or similar rockets), for smaller payloads. It's a business jet to complement the jumbo that is already in service, if you will.

    The reduced cost is partly due to being a (mostly) solid-fuel rocket, which are a lot simpler in construction and require less maintenance. Extra cool: A second, future use for the Vega is to be replace the solid-fuel boosters currently used on the Ariane 5, thus significantly boosting the payload.

  8. A step backward by mrright · · Score: 3, Informative

    Vega is a solid-fueled launcher based on the Ariane V boosters. Solid-fueled launchers are great for the military since they can launch at a moments notice, but other than that they are a big PITA.

    Since they arrive at the launch complex fully fueled, they are a major safety risk. There have been numerous accidents with solid-fueled boosters. The last major accident was in brazil, and it killed several people and completely destroyed the launch complex.

    The solid fueled boosters of the shuttle make assembly much more difficult, and if a shuttle SRB were to accidentally go off while in the assembly building, it would probably kill hundreds of people. That is why NASA tries to limit the number of people working on the shuttle while the SRB are attached, which of course increases the cost and the processing time.

    For a really modern and cheap small launcher, take a look at the falcon.

    --

    --
    Private property is the central institution of a free society (David Friedman)
    1. Re:A step backward by mrright · · Score: 3, Interesting

      To back up my assertion that the vega is not competitive: here are a few launch prices:
      The vega is supposed to cost 20 million USD for a payload of 1500kg to LEO. The Falcon I will cost 6 million USD for a payload of 700kg to a similar orbit, and the Falcon V will cost 12 million USD and have a payload of 4200kg to LEO.

      So commercially vega will be a complete desaster. The only payloads that will go to vega will be government payloads that can not go to falcon for reasons of national prestige.

      On the other hand, vega is a decent ICBM with MIRV capability.

      --
      Private property is the central institution of a free society (David Friedman)
    2. Re:A step backward by ttsalo · · Score: 3, Insightful
      here are a few launch prices: ... Falcon I ... Falcon V ...

      Those Falcon launchers sound impressive, but are completely unproven and it remains to be seen how they perform in reality and what the real cost is. Saying that something is "a step backward" from stuff that doesn't exist doesn't make much sense.

      On the other hand, vega is a decent ICBM with MIRV capability.

      Conspiracy theory time! I wonder what the throw weight is, say, halfway around the globe?

      --

      --
      If the road to hell is paved with good intentions, where does the road paved with evil intentions lead to?
    3. Re:A step backward by mrright · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Those Falcon launchers sound impressive, but are completely unproven and it remains to be seen how they perform in reality and what the real cost is. Saying that something is "a step backward" from stuff that doesn't exist doesn't make much sense.
      The falcon launchers are just as unproven as the vega launcher. Neither of them has flown, but the engines of both falcon and vega have been tested on test stands.

      And I am totally convinced that using solids for civilian launchers is a major step backward. Imagine having to work on a launch vehicle full of highly explosive propellant. A liquid fueled launch vehicle on the other hand gets fueled on the pad, so as long as it is in the assembly building it is just a bunch of totally inert metal. Even if you can control the risk, the safety precautions make assembling the solid-fueled launcher much more expensive.

      The first falcon I launch will be in this summer, and the first falcon V launch will be in the fall of next year if all goes according to plan. The first vega launch will be in 2006.

      Conspiracy theory time! I wonder what the throw weight is, say, halfway around the globe?
      About three to four tons. But that was just a joke. It could be used as an ICBM though.
      --

      --
      Private property is the central institution of a free society (David Friedman)
    4. Re:A step backward by cheesybagel · · Score: 2, Interesting
      Conspiracy theory time! I wonder what the throw weight is, say, halfway around the globe?
      About three to four tons. But that was just a joke. It could be used as an ICBM though.

      In case you didn't know about it, some people who work on P230 and P80 also help develop the French M51 SLBMs and manufacture explosives for car airbags. So yeah, solid rocket technology can be used for a log of things. Fear the intercontinental airbags!

  9. Polar orbit? by Eric+Smith · · Score: 5, Interesting
    Is a polar orbit useful for anything other than military payloads? If they can get a 1.5 tonne payload into a polar orbit, how massive a payload can they get into a more non-polar LEO?

    The Space Shuttle's delta wing design was based on a requirement from the military that it be capable of polar orbit. But they've never used it for that. If they'd just told the military to get lost, they could have used a better design. Sigh.

    1. Re:Polar orbit? by Sven-Erik · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Scientific satellites very often use polar orbits since it allows them to cover the whole of the earth surface.

      And if the US military hadn't been involved with NASA and space development throughout its history, I doubt there would be much, if any, NASA.

      --
      - "Every demand is a prison, and wisdom is only free when it asks nothing." Sir Betrand Russell
    2. Re:Polar orbit? by charboy1 · · Score: 4, Informative

      Is a polar orbit useful for anything other than military payloads?

      The ESA payload GOCE - Gravity Field and Steady-State Ocean Circulation Explorer - for example would preferably fly in a polar orbit to gather gravity field data for the entire planet including the poles. Instead near-ground (i.e. airplane) measurements will need to fill in the data gaps at the poles. GOCE will fly in a dawn-dusk sun-synchronous orbit, launched by Rockot.

      - charboy

    3. Re:Polar orbit? by Migraineman · · Score: 3, Informative

      Yep, polar orbits are useful when you need global coverage. Think about one of those basketball-things and imagine in spinning like the Earth. Now use your finger as the satellite. Equatorial orbits will only cover a thin horizontal stripe of area (remember that LEO spacecraft don't have a huge footprint because they're not too high above hte planet.)

      If you now move the satellite in a polar orbit, you'll see that the footprint will cover the entire basketball-earth in a series of vertical stripes.

      Why is this useful? Consider remote data collection anywhere on the planet. If you're observing weather in Peru, or ice flows in the North Atlantic shipping channels, and want to convey that information to your university research center in the Bahamas, then you need global coverage for the transponders (especially for the ice flows - you can't determine where they're going to go.) Polar orbit spacecraft like NOAA7 and NOAA9 performed store-and-forward functions for jobs like these. I built sonar-buoy hardware for tracking conditions in the North Atlantic shipping lanes waaaay back. Here's a decent summary of some of the NOAA satellites that used polar LEO orbits.

  10. multiple payloads. by lingqi · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Chinese can lauch multiple satellites too, you know. However, once a rocket bites the dust, several satellites go with it instead of one.

    While indeed that no *small* chinese launchers can do this, there are really not such a big market for satellites small enough that several fit into a Vega.

    Can't argue with the military aspects, though. I don't think EU trusts the US pushing military satelites into space either these days...

    --

    My life in the land of the rising sun.

    1. Re:multiple payloads. by Polkyb · · Score: 3, Insightful

      All fair points, but, I suspect the major reason that the EU want their own "fleet" of vehicles is just plainly and simply that they don't want to have to rely on another countries space program

      I can understand the mentality, in a way... If we screw up, then WE'VE screwed up.

      --
      I've never shoed a horse, but I once told a donkey to piss off!
  11. What's the matter with you people? by marsu_k · · Score: 5, Insightful
    It seems every time a story gets submitted here about ESA and new technologies they're trying to develop, most of the comments are negative. Let's take a look at the discussion so far: "Useless" by AC (+4, insightful), "Is it any good?" (+3, interesting), "Why not fuel free?" (+3, interesting), "A step backward" (+3, informative)... see a pattern here?

    First of all, I really have a hard time believing that your random slashdotter would have sufficient knowledge to make any intelligent observations about the projects involved (posting as AC doesn't certainly help); furthermore, even if they would have (I've seen people claim working for NASA here), ESA press relases are (naturally) very thin on technical details. After all, you wouldn't want the whole world to know all of your research, right?

    OK, so there have been failed ESA projects (NASA/Russians have also failed more than once if I'm not mistaken), Beagle 2 being the latest (however it is often forgotten here that Mars Express was the real purpose of the mission). So yeah, they might be wasting my tax Euros. I wish they'd waste more! IMHO more research put into space programs ultimately helps everybody, it certainly isn't "useless".

    1. Re:What's the matter with you people? by lxt · · Score: 4, Interesting

      "OK, so there have been failed ESA projects (NASA/Russians have also failed more than once if I'm not mistaken), Beagle 2 being the latest (however it is often forgotten here that Mars Express was the real purpose of the mission). So yeah, they might be wasting my tax Euros. I wish they'd waste more!"

      I agree with you completely - however, just to point out that I believe Beagle 2 was not funded by the ESA...of course, clearly some money from the ESA went towards Beagle 2 due to the cost of adpating Mars Express and payload launch costs, but I think the probe itself wasn't funded by ESA.

      Which leaves even more money to spend on other exciting ESA projects - people may be complaining about how VEGA is "useless", but would they rather the ESA not invest money in space technology at all?

    2. Re:What's the matter with you people? by VanillaCoke420 · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Exactly. The reason why ESA is developing its own line of launchers is because they want to ensure independent European access to space - both for heavy loads (Ariane 5) and lighter loads (Vega). Perhaps ESA will also incorporate the EADS Phoenix shuttle in its launcher family, which would give us independent manned access to space as well. I believe that this is where we might be going, and I would gladly see more money go to European space research. The Aurora programme is especially intriguing.

    3. Re:What's the matter with you people? by Timesprout · · Score: 3, Interesting

      You forget many readers are from the US and they are becoming increasingly concerned that their technological lead in space is being eroded. I think the US really would prefer to have all other countries depend on it for satellite and space access.

      --
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    4. Re:What's the matter with you people? by mrright · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You don't need to be a rocket scientist to see that when falcon V costs 12 million USD and has a payload of 4200kg while vega costs 20 million USD and has a payload of 1500kg, the vega project does not make any sense.

      And everybody on sci.space.tech or sci.space.policy will agree that using solid propellant for a civilian launcher is just asking for trouble.

      21 rocket scientists from brazil would definitely agree with this. Unfortunately they can't because they are all dead!

      --

      --
      Private property is the central institution of a free society (David Friedman)
    5. Re:What's the matter with you people? by Spellbinder · · Score: 3, Interesting

      what technological lead
      maybe the moon landing?? (if it was real)
      some missions to mars
      the russians are the only ones flying humans to space
      ESA has about 60 % of all comercial payload
      i don't think there is a leader at all
      except maybe in their head

      --


      stop supporting microsoft with pirating their software!!!!!
    6. Re:What's the matter with you people? by sander · · Score: 2, Informative

      ESA paid for about 50% of Beagle - but most of the satellite and its problems were indepepdent from ESA (that is, ESA didn't manage the project). The summary of its failure was approximately - too much on too small amount of money too fast.

      As a result we now have a good idea on how cheaply we can make a planetary probe with present technology.

    7. Re:What's the matter with you people? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Then why has the ESA been issuing so many statements about trying to keep up with the US?

    8. Re:What's the matter with you people? by HokieJP · · Score: 2, Informative

      Do you have a source for that 60% number? I did a search, and the most current numbers I found were for 2002, when ESA had 41% of commercial space launches (down from 50% in 2001).

    9. Re:What's the matter with you people? by tsotha · · Score: 2, Insightful
      You're mistaking rational analysis for jingoism. you write:

      First of all, I really have a hard time believing that your random slashdotter would have sufficient knowledge to make any intelligent observations about the projects involved

      The reality is lots of slashdotters are in this business. This isn't about failure rates - this market is way oversaturated - nobody is making money off launches with this payload size. Launcher companies the world over grossly overestimated the size of this market (what with the spectacular failure of Iridium) and have a huge overcapacity glut.

      If there's a row of ten burger joints on my street and someone opens an eleventh, don't you think "why?" is a reasonable question to ask?

      So we'll have yet another government-subsidized launch vehicle soaking up dollars/euros that could go to support a rational commercial space business. Great. If there were something special about this rocket in terms of cost or performance, I guess I could understand, but Vega is "just another rocket" in a crowded field.

      By the way, as others have pointed out, Beagle 2 wasn't an ESA project.

    10. Re:What's the matter with you people? by tsotha · · Score: 2, Insightful
      My comments were in reference to the Vega project only. Also, I didn't mean to dwell on the Beagle 2/ESA point. I was just trying to say you can't consider it an ESA failure.

      But I disagree with your "competition can't hurt" point. When too many competitors enter a crowded market they all lose money. The problem with government-sponsored projects is they aren't allowed to fail, since they "create" jobs. So you end up with a situation where multiple countries are shelling out taxpayer money to outbid each other in an effort to amortize development costs.

      The long-term problem is this prevents a rational market from existing - investors will forever be reluctant to bet against government projects. So companies like Armadillo Aerospace and Starchaser have no chance to develop.

      Now, I can see a strategic rational for the EU to have this kind of capability. As others have pointed out, the rocket seems to be tailored for spy satellites. If that's the rationale, well, bully for you. But if it's just another job-creation scheme that will cost everybody, then I wish they hadn't done it.

      And note I'm critical of much of the US space program for the same reasons. If we could get some more attention to bottom-line costs, maybe we could afford those solar power satellites and other, truly useful projects.

  12. Re:Why? by ttsalo · · Score: 5, Informative
    Ever since NASAs dead hand crushed the Saturn as a launch vehicle, there hasn't been anything really capable of putting my large granite house into geosychronous orbit.

    Not true. Russian Energia can lift considerably more than Saturn. (175 tons to LEO in the maximum configuration, although only lighter configurations have actually flown). There just hasn't been much demand for this sort of capability, so the last Energia sits mothballed in a hangar...

    --

    --
    If the road to hell is paved with good intentions, where does the road paved with evil intentions lead to?
  13. who said there arn't? by lingqi · · Score: 4, Interesting

    i know you are kidding, but there are fuel free research. some almost exact replicas of Verne's canon. Of course, since you have to travel through dense atmosphere for a _long_time_, 7.9km/s is not nearly enough.

    And the payload would go through something like 10,000G through the acceleration phase. I think they are suggesting that electronics can generally handle this, which is surprising to me.

    AND the payload would burn through about five inches of ablative.

    I think the current technical problem they are facing is to get the huge acceleration out of the canon - because chemical charges can not ever get you the muzzle velocity, probably ever. So now you are in the realm of railguns. don't expect to see payloads shot up this way for a few years. =)

    but, like i said, there are ideas floating around about it.

    --

    My life in the land of the rising sun.

  14. Re:Why? by ebassi · · Score: 2, Insightful

    In fact, there's a glut

    Where? Primarly in the US. I'm sorry, but I don't think EU would like to financially help Lockeed-Martin. Yes, there are some LEO/low-cost vectors actually developed in China, Brazil and India, but the same reasoning applies.

    --
    You can save space. Or you can save time. Don't ever count on saving both at once. -- First Law of Algorithmic Analisys
  15. Here is a plan for a low-cost reuseable launcher. by HenrikOxUK · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Make a modern space-plane like the shuttle, and strap it to the back of a modified large commercial jet-aircraft like a 747, as seen here. Then use the concept used by Scaled Composits for SpaceShipOne, to bring the space plane up to a high altitude and release it there. It then continues into orbit using rocket power.

    The trick is that because the shuttle is attached to the TOP of the 747, and not underneath, you have to do a roll and fly upside down for a bit when releasing the shuttle. But that's no problem. Planes can do that; even 747s :)

  16. Re:Why? by ttsalo · · Score: 4, Informative
    I don't agree. It was mothballed as recently as in 1992 and the company that made it (S.P.Korolev RSC Energia) is still in business making rockets. I don't claim that they could take the Energia out, fuel and launch it, but the availability of the manufacturing equipment, launch facilities and especially the people who could make it happen are on a completely different level when compared to Saturn V.

    If you had enough money, you could buy an Energia launch from RSC Energia - but not a Saturn launch from NASA. (Well, maybe you could with really enough money...)

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    If the road to hell is paved with good intentions, where does the road paved with evil intentions lead to?
  17. Re:Why? by mrright · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Property is a central economic institution of any society, and private property is the central institution of a free society.

    That is not true. The RD-170 engines for the boosters are still in production for the zenit sea launch vehicles. And the first stage of the zenit vehicle was used as the booster rockets of the energia. So the only thing you would have to do would be to resume production of the core stage.

    The problem is that there is no demand for such large payloads. But if you gave the russians a few billion USD they could certainly reactivate the energia.

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    Private property is the central institution of a free society (David Friedman)
  18. Re:Could someone... by Eccles · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Could someone...enlighten us to some details of the 'vega launcher' and why its special ?

    If you had ever owned a Vega, you would understand why they want to launch any remaining ones into space...

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    Ooh, a sarcasm detector. Oh, that's a real useful invention.
  19. Re:Could someone... by Kosmonavt · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Reasons this story is interesting: Space frontier: A new rocket is developed Economic: It will have to compete with the cheap decommissioned Russian ICBMs Technological: solid fuel (aka firework material) that is harnessed to produce thrust Geekly: the test reported refers to the casting process for the solid fuel using an inert alternative (which? sugar cake - yamm!) Flamebait: another stage for US-European space antagonism Italians in space: it is mostly an Italian project within ESA

  20. Re:Economics by joggle · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The payloads would have to have similar orbits (or at least be placed in roughly the same plane). The extra fuel needed to put the various payloads in their own correct orbit quickly diminishes any cost savings by putting them on the same lower stage rocket.

  21. Re:Could someone... by jfoust · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Yes. Usually Rokot or Dnepr launches (old refurbished Russian ICBMs) are bought for small and cheap payloads, but they aren't exactly reliable...

    Actually, if you look at their launch records both the Rockot and the Dnepr are quite reliable. (Beware the dangers of small sample statistics, however.) Care to share your analysis regarding why these specific boosters are not reliable?

  22. Re:Economics by jfoust · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Wouldn't it be more economical to lauch many small payloads at once using a large rocket, e.g. Ariane 5.

    Contrary to another response, this is as much a logistical issue as anything else: you need to find enough small payloads going to the same orbit at the same time to make this worthwhile. Coordinating this would be a significant challenge, particularly given the paucity of small payloads in general. Arianespace routinely dual-manifests larger communication satellites (that is, launch two at a time on an Ariane 5), and this alone can cause some scheduling complications.

  23. Re:Could someone... by cheesybagel · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Tell that to the Russian Navy. They just had a misfire of one of their Cold War era manufactured ICBMs a couple of weeks ago. Dnepr, also known as the SS-18 Satan ICBM, was signed out of use by Reagan and Gorbachev. These launchers are old refurbished ICBMs people.