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Automakers Try To Keep Repair Codes Secret
An anonymous reader writes "Can't get the trouble codes out of your car's computer? Congress wants to help. I think it's odd that they think it's your God-given right to reverse-engineer your car, but not your XBox. Why aren't the automakers bashing these third-party code readers over the head with the DMCA while they still can?" This debate has been going on for several years.
It's all part of the same racket.
Here in good 'ol New Joisey, any 'newer' car (I believe '96 or newer) gets a computer test instead of the rod-up-the-tailpipe test. If your check-engine light is on, you automatically fail the test -- they won't even plug into the computer.
If it's not on, they read the codes in your engine, and if everything is OK, you pass the smog test.
Now, do you smell a racket here or what?
State inspection: free. Inspection at a "PIF" (Private inspection facility): $75.
Isn't it in your mechanic's interest to conveniently have that irritating-yet-not-telling-you-anything check engine light go on, so you have to bring it back to be inspected for $75?
Grr... just another screw-job.
I know that many cars already come with OBD II compliant ports (http://www.obdii.com/) and there are interfaces out there to hook your laptop to the OBD port and check the engine management software. Indeed there are tools to remap the engine software that use the same OBD port (I've installed this on my BMW)
Given that this type of standardized interface exists, and that tools for "exploiting" it are readily available and fairly cheap, I don't see how it would be possible to keep this information (error codes and the like) secret.
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It was before the lemon laws. The problem was that the car would just quit, right in the middle of driving down the interstate or wherever. After a few minutes you could restart it. After the third trip to the dealership failed to find the problem, I "revoked my acceptance" of the product, just like it was a bad hair drier I took back to Walmart. The dealer sputtered and argued for a while, but I got my money back and took it down the road and bought a different brand. It didn't take me 12 tries.
"Do the Right Thing. It will gratify some people and astound the rest." - Mark Twain
"Do the Right Thing. It will gratify some people and astound the rest." - Mark Twain
There are still other ways for manufacturers to lock business into their dealerships. My father-in-law drives a Jetta with a horrible radio, and was told by an independent shop that a certain key is required (?) to remove the radio from the dash, and that he'd have to go to the dealer for that.
Not only is he on his own to replace the piece of $hit radio and antenna built into his car, but he gets to pay dealer premium just to take the crap out! Has anybody else heard of this? It was news to me...
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They used to be. A family friend who turns wrenches for the local Chrysler dealer was telling us that now they hook the car up to the computer, it sends the trouble code data to detroit, and an "engineer" in detroit sends the fix back to the dealership. They don't even release the codes to the local mechanics, as they would rather not have a mechanic open his own shop with the codes.
At the bottom of the endless pile of paper work which characterizes all regulation lies a gun.
Alan Greenspan
The similarity is that game makers make less money if you pirate a game (instead of buying it). Car dealers/manufacturers make less money if you fix your own car (and down pay for their overpriced service and "genuine rippof parts").
;-)
Bullshit. Most of those who want to reverse engineer their hardware do it to gain flexibility not given by the original manufacturer. Let's take the Xbox example, I know a guy who's made a beuwolf of XBoxes for bioinformatics research.... why XBoxes? Because he found a bunch cheap. Why can't he reverse engineer hardware he owns.
Or the original purpose of DeCSS, to watch them under linux. Reverse engineering is not the evil boogy man, nor should it be illegal. The parallels between a car and your XBox are there.
As for the fellow who commented about the only security on car systems being obscurity... Alright, I here by patent security through obscurity, and will sue anyone who uses it without paying me royalties... as well, being an official security mechanism now, circumventing it is now illegal under the DCMA.
The dealership charged $650 to reset the computer and fix the issue - a oil leak onto the coil, which caused problems (we'll ignore the engineering issue; it's a cheap truck, I'm happy with 100k miles trouble free).
That was Friday. Yesterday, on the way back from Baycon, I was climbing a pass when the check engine light came on again and it went into limp mode... I think... as when I pulled over and restarted the engine, it was fine for the rest of the hour and a half trip. It's been fine since, but the check engine light is on. I think it just needs to be reset, but...
$98 to diagnose it from PepBoys, the dealer or the Mom and Pop down the street. Dammit. I'm thinking of disconnecting the battery a day and seeing if that resets it.
--
Evan
"$30 for the One True Ring. $10 each additional ring!" -- JRR "Bob" Tolkien
Gentlemen, there is absolutely nothing to prevent the car ompanies from leasing you the software to run your cars, providing it under license, and requiring a continuing monthly fee to have it updated to the latest, most correct version. It is going to happen in just a couple years, believe me.
... initially.
The Jim Jones Kool-Aid they mix it with will be (1) "safety for soccer moms and soccer kiddies" for soccer mom minivans, (2) "continually improved emission controls" for the tree-huggers. and (3) "hot performance item that only rich guys have" for the young dude crowd.
After all, would you want your wife driving an "unsafe car"? Do you want to pollute when there are easy upgrades to bring teh pollution down? Don't you want the hottest performing Mustang? Why aren't you willing to pay that "little extra" necessary to keep the system software up to date?
When the dealers hear the idea they will love it, since it locks you into their system and guarantees the dealers a continuing income stream.
The warranties will be revised to say "we are only valid as long as you operate your car with the latest vesion of software".
California will require continuing software updates and will not permit you to register your car unless your engine software is up to date. Why? Because the car companies will swear they are constantly refining the pollution controls and can guarantee continually reduced emissions (as long as everyone pays the monthly fee and goes into their dealer every couple months!).
No, guys, its going to happen and happen soon. Don't think that everyone from toaster manufacturers to wristwatch manufacturers to car manufacturers are not slavering at the idea of a continuing income stream for constant upgrades.
All they have to do is wait for the other corporations, like the record business and Microsoft, to mentally turn us all into pay-per-view, pay-per-ride, pay-per-smell, pay-per-look, pay-per-sip, pay-per-breath people.
So let me tell you how it is going to start. First, a new high performance car/engine is going to come out, bought by young guys. They are going to make some special "super-cool" program in which the young guys come in to the shop every couple months to get a revised OS downloaded to their cars. Free coffee, key chains, watches, all the suckie trinkets that young guys fall for who are out hustling women and like to believe they are playas. Hell, it may even be free
Every cool hip young white dude is going to want the latest "performance" versions for his new engine, won't he? After all, he always checks out the latest drivers for his video card, doesn't he? His hot car (like a Harley) is just a big penis extension anyway.
Aw, the car companies will start talking advance curves, valve timings, omega factors, brake horsepower curves, improved shift curves, gamma cutoffs and other hokey nonsense and he will fall right over for it. I can see it now: fancy web site discussing the data, how they gathered it and evaluated it, and how they have revised the softare, all done in black and gun metal colors. Brief bios on the engineers developing the improved software make him feel like some NASA astronaut! Man! he'll feel like some kind of fancy pilot/engineer/astronaut/cool dude at the cutting edge, a regular "early adopter"!
And once the young guy is hooked on new car software as a high ticket, high status performance item (that gets him oodles of babes, of course), everyone else will fall into line.
Selah.
I think the legislation allowing people to go to outside dealers for warranty work will be even better. In my case, I am an Engineer with a love for cars. I bought $700 software to reprogram my car, and another $400 on software to scan and log the data from the On Board Computer (OBD-II). A few years ago, I threw an SES (Service Engine Soon) light, and immediately scanned it with my gear. It read, "Low Flow - EGR Malfunction". I took the car in to the dealer, since emissions are warrantied for 100k miles in California, and I told them it was an EGR malfunction. The dealer serviceman looked incredulous. He replied, "You're not supposed to know that!" Long story short, I threw a code a week later and scanned it again. When I saw a repeat of the same error code, I looked closer at my repair sheet from the dealer. They had replaced my Air Pump, otherwise known as a Smog Pump, which is totally unrelated to Exhaust Gas Recirculation, or EGR valve. I bought an EGR valve off E-bay and just replaced it myself, thinking the issue would be over. After I installed the new EGR valve, the code cleared, never to return.
The story takes a funny twist at this point. I received a notice from California DMV that my car was being held up for registration renewal because of an uncorrected emissions recall. I look at the notice and it's for the EGR replacement. I took the car back to the dealer and they certified they replaced the recalled part. In other words, they certified they replaced a part they were unable to diagnose and that I ultimately had to replace myself. It's for reasons such as this that I sold my Trans Am and stopped racing. I spent thousands of dollars ensuring my '97 Trans Am had nothing but CARB (California Air Resource Board) approved modifications for low emissions, and high performance (427 dyno'd horsepower at the tires), yet $15 an hour greasemonkeys couldn't effectively manage the emissions process. It became too stressful trying to find a smogshop where people had a clue.
John Schubert
Perhaps this is because a car is something tangible. Every Congressman understands the need to work on your own car. Perhaps many Congressmen have worked on their own cars in their 20's. It is simply very widely accepted that people fix their own cars, and for that reason, Congress has no problem protecting your rights to do so.
On the other hand, your XBox, or your computer, or whatever, is relatively new and the need to mess with these things is not very well understood. Why would you want to open that box and mess with the chips inside? Only because you're some pimply faced geek with no life, most likely, and that's just plain stupid. That is probably how Congress sees it.
Maybe in 20 years, we'll have people in Congress who are sick of not being able to boot whatever operating system they want on their computer, and then they'll understand the need to protect your rights in that regard. But the big software and media companies are pushing as strongly as they can to make information rare and expensive, and to make sure that anybody who copies it for whatever reason (legitimate or not) is a pirate and should suffer punishments worse than 1000 murderers, rapists, and kidnappers.
This is what we must fight against. We must make it known that it is retarded to fight against the nature of information. Ooooooooooh well.
This isn't as simple as you seem to think. There is one light, which lights up, and stays lit after any fault condition. The fault conditions can be for something as simple and trivial as a loose gas cap to something which will cause the engine to leap out and land in your lap. You have no way of knowing without going along to your local friendly dealer to have them tell you what the problem is (was) and to re-set the warning light. My Jeep Grand Cherokee had 27,000 miles on it when my warning light lit up. I took it along to the local Jeep shop, who connected the computer and diagnosed --- a loose gas cap. Now living in Oregon, you don't get to play with your own gas cap. In Oregon they really do believe those dire warnings that California churn out, that gasoline is a substance that can cause a multitude of serious health problems, and is a potential terrorist weapon, so you can't fill your own tank if you want to. Anyway, I really thought it was improbable, but took them at their word - they tightened the gas cap and reset the light. The next day, it came back on. Back to the Jeep merchant ... loose gas cap. So I reminded them that they said the same thing yesterday, and tightened the gas cap themselves, and it hadn't been touched since.
The "cleaned" the gas cap and re-set the light.
Two days later the light came on ...
"loose gas-cap" they said.... "Screw that" I said, "its something else - fix it under my bumper to bumper warranty."
They took the car in the next day, and called me late in the afternoon having done all the Jeep tests without any result. But they did mention that there were some tests that were only run by the on-board computer when the engine was cold, and hadn't run for several hours, and it was this one which was tripping the warning. They kept the car overnight.
Next day, it dutifully turned on the warning light for them.
With nothing left to check, they fitted a new gas-cap and sent me home (I am certain I saw them holding their fingers crossed behind their backs as I drove away...).
That fixed it. But it was interesting that there was no apparent way to test the system short of change a component, wait a day and try it. I just shudder to think how much this would have ended up costing me if it had happened out of warranty.
Okay, this is another fine example of /. getting the ignorant all worked up over nothing.
/., they incite the exposure of ignorance by offering up one-sided, hot headed, articles and everyone runs with it like it's an "outrage". The true outrage is when people do not think their options through before going on a tangent about how evil empires are out to drain your pocket books. Of course, they are. That is what a business does. If you want the simplest, 1-step, solution to your problem, it will ALWAYS cost you more than if you did not mind putting a little effort into it.
:)
Here is what I do:
1) Stop by the dealership to get the problem diagnosed by the computer. This costs nothing.
2) Once the official cause of the diagnostic code is determined, request they fax you an explanation of exactly what needs to be done.
3) Call non-dealers and get quotes for the repairs. Use your faxed description so you can express the problem clearly to the other mechanic.
4) Take the vehicle to the lowest bidder.
See? That's not all that hard. The problem with
This whole thing reminds me of a scene where George Jetson presses a button on his food making machine, it doesn't work the first time. He then sprains his index finger on the second push. The end result was him kneeling to the floor crying about how difficult life is. Don't be like that.
Who cares about an Xbox gaming system... It doesn't make me money. But going without a car? I'm out of a job.
I paid $20+ thousand dollars for this hunk of metal and you're telling me that I'm supposed to just kowtow to the almighty dealer every time I want my check-engine light turned off? I don't think so. I should have the option of going to the dealer, to be sure, but if I'm having a drivability problem, I want to go to someone I trust with my car, someone that charges less and I'm happier with.
I've got an older Jeep Grand Cherokee with drivability problems. Thing is that Chrysler (Dodge) keeps pretty close tabs on their trouble codes so every time my car acts up, if I want to plug it into a computer to find out why its running rough I have to go to the dealer, pull into the service bay, talk to some dipshit who tells me to wait in the waiting room. By the time the technician 'calls my number' the car is running fine and I'm charged the minimum $75 fee for plugging the reader into my car. Because its just running rough, no trouble codes are set in the computer, and therefore the only way to catch the problem is when its happening.
Conversely, It started happening again and I called my local mechanic telling him that I'm coming over, "Its acting up again". I pull up and he walks out with his code reader in hand, wiping his hands on a red shop towel. Plugs in the computer and sees immediately that I've got a widget stuck in the maniform valve, giving the ejection seat a prematurely high voltage which was advancing the ignition timing to fire way before tea-time.
I dunno what was wrong that time, but all I know is it was a $110 part and $75 in labor and my Jeep is running like new...
Dealers have their place, but not in every case.
Good security is based upon reality and common sense. Common sense is a function of having common knowledge.
This quote from the article sums up almost all future computing legal issues. "The legislation argues that consumers own their vehicles in their entirety and should be able to access their onboard computers." All debates about piracy center around this idea. As we, as a society evolve into computing (just ask any 9 year old how to program your cell phone), we can only hope that the government falls on the side of the consumer as witnessed in legislation pending regarding cars. The future of computers and of programming will depend on one's ability to continually manipulate code to suit one's need. I will be damn proud if my son decides to reverse-engineer anything. Jon Lech Johansen's father must be the proudest father on the planet
Just so you know, I like to start signatures with the phrase, "Just so you know."