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Seeking a Decent Digital SLR Camera for Beginners?
lancomandr asks: "I'm interested in getting into digital photography. I have looked at many tutorials and buying guides but there are so many digital SLRs I have no idea which ones to even start considering. I want to be able to make decently large prints, I'd like to get a decent amount of use out of it before upgrading, I want good battery life and durability is key. All of you photographers out there, any suggestions? What did you buy when you started?"
Try http://dpreview.com, they are the best resource around. Marc
And be sure to check out this previously posted /. article.
I have a rebel. Battery life is awesome, and im pretty sure its just as good as the nikon. Since the sensor is only used when actually taking a picture (no live preview), and the lcd is almost always off, and the battery is large, you get hundreds of shots off a single charge.
large prints - its 6 megapixel. And its very noise free, since the sensor is physically very large. Beats the 8mp point & shoots by a ways.
costs a bunch tho, because youll probably want a longer zoom fairly quickly, and a large CF card (1gb or 512mb), and possibly a flash and tripod. Id budget an extra 500 to 1000$ over a rebel or d70 kit. If you go for a canon 10D you need to budget more, because it doesnt come with a lens, and theres no cheap equiv to the rebel kit lens for canon. (to get the wideangle, after the sensor crop / multipplier).
the sensor crop / multiplier is great if you want tele, but sucky for wide. Since you need extra wide lenses. its 1.6x for canon (18mm lens ~= 28mm lens). i think its similar for nikon.
Incorrect, and you even mention the competition which kills it - the Nikon D70. As much as I love Canon cameras, the D70 blows away the Digital Rebel and the D10 in many respects, and is priced similarly to the Rebel.
I'd still prefer the Canon lenses, though, and when you buy an SLR 'system,' you're really buying into a lens line as much or more than the camera body itself. There's no way I'd choose Nikon's lens line over Canon's at this point, which is too bad, because of the D70. *shrug*
When digital gets to 10MP, then try experimenting with digital SLRs, in the meantime forget it.
That's assuming that by decent size prints you mean 8x10 or larger.
A good all manual SLR (yes there are some around, especially used ones, which will save you lots of money) will last for YEARS on one set of batteries (my Dad went 22 years on one battery a while back, my best is only 12 years on 1 battery).
Plus, lenses can be had cheap by all the people bailing out of film who don't know any better. If you chose the right system to go with, you can take those lenses forward to digital later too. (Nikon and Canon come to mind, but I think Pentax as well). Or any T-mount lens can be brought forward.
I own a Rebel myself and it really is a great camera. DPreview is a good place to read the reviews and check out the forums. You might see a lot of people complaining and such about not having some advanced features and the like. For me personally, I bought this to learn with and understand more about photography, and so far some of those advanced features I have not really required. There may be a point where I do, however, for now, this camera has everything that I want. Plus, with firmware hacks, that can even be changed. The thing to remember is that after you start getting in to lenses, which Canon has a great reputation for, then switching the body becomes somewhat more trivial since you will not have to have switching costs as you will be able to utilize those lenses again and again (unless you completely jump ship and switch everything). I myself will be very unlikely to do that because the camera is great, lenses are great, and you know that Canon is going to continue to put out high-quality stuff (not saying Nikon or anyone else isn't...) Just my .02
If you want an entry level digital camera, you're going to have to stick with point and shoot type camera.
As everyone else has pointed out, the Digital Rebel is the cheapest digital SLR, but at $900 it's not exactly what you'd call entry level. I have the 10D, and I know several people that have the Rebel, and for the money, the Rebel wins hands down. So, if you're going to get one, get the Rebel, and put some money into some really nice lenses. Don't plan on upgrading any time soon, the Rebel hasn't dropped in price since it's been out, and the 10D has actually gone up in price. For a while the 10D couldn't be found anywhere, every place was out of stock.
Also note, with the Rebel, it's a very popular camera. So when you have trouble figuring something out, there's a lot of people available to help. And then there's the firmware hacks, whi ch you should already know about.
Be careful with the Muvo drive swap. It looks like Creative is now using microdrives that only work in ATA mode. The owner of Digital Photography Review has just run into this problem recently. Here's the thread.
The Nikon D70 and the Canon EOS-300D ("digital rebel"; whatever, Canon) are pretty comparable camera bodies, but the kicker is the lens. You can buy either one with a bundled lens; the 300D comes with a crappy lens, while the D70 comes with a very respectable lens.
Definitely get the D70. If you get the 300D and find you enjoy photography, you'll want to replace it in a year or two. If you get the D70 and find you enjoy photography, you'll be happy with it for much longer.
And because the D70 is newer, the resale price will be better if you decide to bail out.
I write in my journal
FWIW, I've even talked to a couple of photographers that shoot for the Chicago Sun Times (or was it the Chicago Tribune?) and they swear by the Nikon D70, even over a D10 (and far and away above the Digital Rebel).
Sure, the price is a bit high for an entry SLR, but not, in my opinon, for a entry *digital* SLR, at this point in time. If you want to be on the hot technology side of life, you do end up paying a bit of a premium...but to get what the poster wants, that is an SLR that is full-featured and won't need to be exchanged for a better model soon, the D70 is the clear choice.
"SLR" stands for Single Lens Reflex. This means that light passes through the lens, off a mirror and/or CCD, and into your eye. It means that there is no parralax error due to you and the camera seeing your subject from different angles. It doesn't necessarily mean you have the ability to change lenses, nor does it mean it's a "professional grade" camera. It doesn't even have to be much more complicated than your average point-and-shoot, though I'm assuming you want to be able to grow as you learn.
In the lower class of Digital SLR bodies with interchangeable lenses, you've got the Nikon D70 and D100, the Canon Digital Rebel, and a few cameras by Sigma and Fuji. These cameras (bodies with interchangeable lenses) will allow you the most flexibility, options, and quality. However, they are also much more expensive, starting at about the $1000 mark. For the moment, I'll assume this is the area you're looking at.
First off, the Canon Digital Rebel is not the only camera in its class. Nikon just released the D70, which seems to kick the Rebel's ass. I spoke to Nikon Digital Support (800-645-6689), and they said the memory buffer was so fast that you could pretty much keep shooting continuously until you ran out of space. Compared to older models that would only do "burst mode" for up to five seconds, that's quite a feat. The D70 is only about 3 frames/second, but the D2H can do 8 frames/second for five seconds before the buffer gets full. Of course, the D2H is about $3K, but I can dream. ;-)
Second, you are not limited to (and may not want) a camera with interchangable lenses. The Nikon Coolpix 5700 and 8700 are pretty decent (the latter being 8 megapixels!), and the Canon PowerShot Pro1, G5, and S1 are also options. One definite advantage the cameras without interchangable lenses have is that they are going to be much smaller and lighter.
As per several recommendations already posted, definitely check out DPReview. Great site, lots of info, full testing, sample shots, menus and interfaces, etc. Think about what your priorities are. How high of a resolution do you need? 6 megapixels is plenty for an 8x10. (4 can actually get you by.) If you aren't printing anything larger than that, you're fine. Do you care if there's a proprietary battery, or do you need the flexibility of "standard"-sized batteries? (AA, AAA, etc.) Do you have a preference for media type? (I prefer CompactFlash, as it tends to give the best cost/size ratio, and the card size options are larger.) Do you need lens interchangeability? Do you want it? Regardless of what you want *right now*, where do you want to take your photography eventually? Make sure your camera choice now will not limit your goals later.
Personally, I'd lean more towards the larger SLR bodies with interchangeable lenses. They're bigger, heavier, and *can be* more expensive... though this is by no means true any more. However, the options you have are incredible. Of course, you may well just be leaving the camera in automatic mode all the time, which makes those options useless, overpriced oversized, etc. However, if you *want* those options later... you may not have to "upgrade" anything other than your lens options. Now that
http://www.kenrockwell.com/tech.htm
He does a good job of telling you what really matters. If he has a bias, it's towards Nikon. BUt that's beside the point. His focus is photography, digital or film.
And I'm pretty sure that if you asked him, he'd point you towards the Nikon D70.
Of course, the hackability of the Canon 300 is pretty tempting, but it's not really the point. You can take fantastic pictures with an SLR or a point and shoot. Those extra features aren't going to make your pictures better. Shooting a lot of pictures and honestly evaluating them is what makes your pictures better.
THe biggest difference I see between digicams and DSLRs is control.
In addition to the plethora of lenses out there, the SLRs give you much more control over the actual photographic process. Shutter speed, Apeture, Whitebalance, ISO etc. Yes many of these options can be set on a higher end digicam (a cheaper one will not let you set apeture or shutter) However, the EASE of setting these options is much different.
With my D70, I can control almost all camera settings, while my eye is still in the viewfinder. I can totally reconfigure the camera in a matter of seconds.
In a digicam, you have to scroll through several menus to get the options shot.
I recently took photographs at a local community theatre, during a live performance. (I was hired to be the photographer, I wasn't sneaking)
They didn't want flash, so the lighting was VERY low.
In order to get good shots, I had to use a slow shutterspeed, at a wide apeture, at very high ISO. This totally wrecked any of the faster scenes (especially dancing) due to blur.
With the D70 masterwheel, I could VERY quickly switch my shutter speed to give me the right shot as the scene changed. Dialog, I would go slower, and get more detail and light. Dance, I would speed it up, and get the action. These shots would be impossible on digicam.
One other big difference is lenses. Not just the interchangability (which is huge, but if you get a superzoom (28-300 or something like that) you wont be changing very much (at the cost of some quality). But also the size. Remember, photography is recording light. The bigger your lens, the more light, which means more detail, more color etc.
A point and shoot has a tiny lens. A Tiny apeture, even wide open.
First of all, do you have any experience in photography? If so, have you ever had a film SLR, or point and shoot?
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I'm a big one for learning things the hard way first. You can pick up a used 35mm SLR for next to nothing and you can learn how to be a good photographer far easier than you can (IMHO) with a digital camera. A lot of times people forget that photography is about taking good pictures, NOT playing with cool toys on the computer.
It's pretty cool to be able to instantly see how the image will turn out, pop it into the gimp or photoshop, adjust the color/balance/shadows/levels, etc, but having to wait a week to finish up a roll of film, get it back from processing, and having to imagine what the image will look like when you take it will make you a much better photographer. The key to taking pictures that aren't 'snapshots' is to be able to know what it will look like before you take the picture. Digital takes this away from the end user a bit and you end up just taking pictures of everything and ending up with 99.9% crap.
end rant
Regarding the purchase of the d-slr, if you have any existing lenses the choice is pretty clear. The D-Rebel takes any canon EOS lense, and you have a wide variety of choices for lenses (including image stabalized lenses). The nikon D70 takes any nikon lenses. The *ist-d will take any pentax K/KA mount lense.
If you have no lenses then it's a matter of what system you like (remember the body is a throwaway, you'll be investing in lenses if you get into it and will upgrade to a better model eventually and you will keep on using your lenses. If you're budget minded you probably will be looking at the d-rebel and you can eventually upgrade to the next step up. If your budget is a bit bigger you can look at the nikon or the pentax.
When I went through this I ended up buying the pentax *ist-d, at about twice the cost of the d-rebel. It's the smallest d-slr out there, and is light and fits in my hands nicely. It's more comparable with the canon 10d from what I understand, and having several pentax lenses already made the choice a bit easier. Of course, now I'm looking at buying more lenses to replace my older manual lenses, but that's the nature of expensive hobbies like photography and computers
One of the best pieces of advice I got about choosing a d-slr was to find something you're comfortable with. If it's too big or too small, or the menu or controls aren't intuitive or easy to use, you won't use it as much, it won't be taken with you everywhere, and will end up collecting dust. If you can spend more *with reason*, do. Don't (IMHO) settle for say, the d-rebel if it feels too big in your hands, or if you're going to do sports photography and need the bigger buffer in the d-70.
Remember, you'll be saving your money for lenses
I'm still surprised that Canon's D10 (and even the new Mark II version of it, I think), has no spot meter.
I think you're mistaken. My DR has a little "*" button on the back that is for spot metering. Now, you need to change the focus mode from it's 7-point mode to single (center) point mode to get what you're expecting, but it then acts "properly" (even when using the flash). My old film SLR was an EOS 650 circa '87 so I got very good at the center the camera on the subject, push the shutter down half way to focus, hit the "*" button to spot meter, recompose shot as desired, and finish pressing the shutter dance.
I've shot 1800 shots in 8 months of owning my DR. Most are of my 7 month old son. It's just priceless to have that many shots of him as he grows up. And very nice that they were at zero additional cost.
That's true. CMOS is also used in Canon EOS-1Ds, Canon EOS-1D which are the digital SLRs for pro users.
I must get some of the stuff you're smoking! First, compare test shots between Canon EOS-300D ("Digital Rebel") and Nikon D70. Also check the noise test results. I'm not saying that Nikon D70 is a bad camera, the other way around. It's just that Canon CMOS cameras have from the start had less noise than most CCD cameras. CMOS technology has better battery life but usually slower burst shooting. I think that D70 has a bit better lens than the one that's bundled with 300D. One can get better lenses for a SLR, of course, but it needs to be taken into the consideration while you're comparing the features and price.
I still think that a second hand Powershoot G3 or G4 would be a better choice for a beginner. It's much cheaper and even G3 is far from a bad camera. By the time you've learned to shoot great pictures, the price of the entry level (or a bit higher) SLRs have dropped much more than the value of your second hand camera. Spend the money on a larger CF card and possibly to a good flash system instead (Note that investing on flash has vendor-lock effect as TTL systems usually require that the camera body and the flash system are from the same manufacturer).
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Spelling and grammar mistakes left as an exercise for the reader.
I'm a Canon user so I'll talk Canon, one point at a time...
"I'm interested in getting into digital photography."
Getting into DSLR at the bottom of the ladder will prove expensive because you'll spend $1000 on a camera/lenses and then a few months later you'll be buying more, more, more.
It's better to spend more to start with and get some good, non-beginner equipment that will last you for many years.
"I have looked at many tutorials and buying guides but there are so many digital SLRs I have no idea which ones to even start considering."
Remember that I'm only talking Canon, in which case your choice is between the Rebel/300D and the 10D.
"I want to be able to make decently large prints"
The 300D and 10D are both 6Mpx and will both print nicely up to A3. The 300D sensor is essentially the same as the 10D but it is produced more cheaply and there is some feeling that the image quality is slightly inferior.
"I'd like to get a decent amount of use out of it before upgrading"
I've used the Rebel/300D and I upgraded to the 10D within a month. I then upgraded to the 1D. I'd recommend the 10D to anyone. I wouldn't recommend the 300D. It's essentially a crippled 10D.
"I want good battery life"
Both the 300D and 10D will give you hundreds of shots on a single battery charge which takes a couple of hours. You can also buy a battery grip which attaches to the bottom of the camera and allows you to use two batteries.
"durability is key"
The 300D is fairly tough but it's plastic. The 10D is metal and tougher. The 1D is designed to survive a warzone, literally.
"All of you photographers out there, any suggestions? What did you buy when you started?"
In six months I've gone from a 300D with a couple of cheap lenses to a 1D with approx $8,000 of lenses.
My recommendation, assuming you don't want to go for the 1D which is the best camera ever made, is to get a 10D with a 28-135 Image Stabilizer lens. That will cost you less than $2,000. You will almost certainly want to buy more lenses over time but you'll be happy with the 10D for several years.
There is talk of a 10D replacement within the year but considering the mess Canon has made of the 1D Mk II my advice would be to buy what's right for you now rather than wait for "the next big thing" that may or may not be any good.
Now you need someone to give you the same run-down on Nikon gear. Don't let anyone tell you that Canon or Nikon is considerably better than the other. Both have strengths and weaknesses.
Briefly...
Canon's strengths: Better telephone lenses, slightly better image quality, good resale value, usually brings next-gen tech out a good six months before other manufacturers, good support, lenses are slightly cheaper.
Nikon's strengths: Reputedly better wide lenses, better flash system, high-end cameras are cheaper than Canon's high-end offerings.
Canon cameras are generally used by fashion and sports photographers and more of these are switching to Canon every day.
Nikon cameras are generally used by photojournalists but Canon is becoming much more prevalent in this area nowadays.
If you have any specific questions on Canon gear then feel free to post them in a reply to this comment and I'll answer if I can.
When you are looking at "reviews," don't pay any attention to the ones that have nothing bad to say about the product. This is your first indication of a vendor-sponsored review. Even with the best product, everyone (except the mfgr's marketing dept.) will find something they don't like about it, due to individual tastes and experiences.
What I like about Digital Photography Review is that their reviews are comprehensive, they do repeatable laboratory tests using industry standards (in addition to subjective field testing), and they don't accept payments or gifts from manufacturers.
Give me my freedom, and I'll take care of my own security, thank you.
A comparison by of a hacked 300D/Rebel with D70 dpreview link
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some fallacies from the above threads:
noise performance : 300D/Rebel wins :it has ISO 100, D70 has a minimum ISO 200 . (also; at comparative 300DISO 200 vs D70ISO 200, the 300D is rated more like ISO160 )
the only major advantage of the D70 is its CF write speed/buffer, ie: in raw mode, it can shoot at 1fps continuous until your cf card fills up. so is this advantage worth the extra money?
flaw: D70 NEF/RAW mode is NOT lossless, it is visually lossless, but its just 9.4bits vs canon raw at 12 bits.
d70 forum link
NEF lossy compression
[quote] The decoding curve is embedded in the NEF file (and could thus be changed by a firmware upgrade without having to change NEF converters), I used a D70 NEF file made available by Uwe Steinmuller of Digital Outback Photo.
The quantization is a lossy operation, and converts 12 bits into 9.4 bits' worth of resolution (dynamic range is unchanged). This is a fairly common technique - digital telephony encodes 12 bits' worth of dynamic range in 8 bits using the so-alled A-law and mu-law codecs. I modified the program to output the data for the decoding curve (Excel-compatible CSV format), and plotted the curve (PDF) using linear and log-log scales, along with a quadratic regression fit (courtesy of R). The curve is a gamma correction curve, linear for values up to 215, then quadratic.
In conclusion, Thom is right - there is some loss of data, mostly in the form of lowered resolution in the highlights. [/quote]