Slashdot Mirror
Parenting and a Career in Coding?
el topher asks: "After 5+ years of being married, my wife and I have been blessed by her becoming pregnant. I've professionally been a programmer for a while now and am now concerned that commercial software development is not a good job for a dad to have. Thinking back on all the software development groups I've been in, it seems most of the coders were not parents, and the coders that were parents seemed to have trouble with things like dealing with unplanned death marches and not being there for their family. So my question to the programmers with kids out there: How does a programming career jive with family life? I'd especially like to hear about parents who have been coding for a while and the situations in this area they've faced."
I'd think that a fairly structured, stable, relatively high-paying job is perfect for family life.
Programming and families are quite compatible. Lots of folks work basic "9-to-5" jobs that have standard in and out times.
Sure there may well be crunch times, but they SHOULD be rare and not "normal".
It's all a matter of expectations by you, your employer and your family. Get them all set up straight up front.
Administrators typically have worse issues, because they tend to have to do things "off-hours".
Life is a series of choices, you have to choose your priorities.
I've been programming professionaly (i.e. not including school) for ten years now. My son is 5 and my daughter is 2.5, and I love them more than anything.
Sometimes I have to work late, but it's very infrequent. I go into work very early so that I can come home early and not miss evenings with them. Sometimes I telecommute so that I can take an hour and go to a program at one of my children's schools.
I do get called after hours and on weekends, but it's extremely rare.
If you've been working in a "slave labor" job where you constantly work late, on weekends, and have no free time, then see line one.
Stupid sexy Flanders.
This is 100% dead on and the thread can be closed now. My wife worked for Boeing and Lockheed Martin- and this was never a problem. I've been programming for about 3 years now, and the times I've been forced to put in a lot of hours have been few and far between.
I would think that changing employers would be easier than moving to a new profession.
It's hard to believe that's how Micronians are made. Why don't we see it right now by having you both kiss one another?
I have 3 kids, and I'm 32. They take a lot of your time, but if you have basic planning skills, that is no problem at all. Just consider 16:00 - 20:00 to be a no-work zone. As long as you don't PLAN to do any work then, you'll be fine. However, if you plan to work all the time, then prepare to get frustrated. After 20:00, they sleep, and you can code since going out every evening is a big nono with kids at home (babysitters are damd expensive !)
If you can manage a wife for 5 years, you sure as hell can manage a kid : if you can not plan free time from work with your SO, then forget about kids.
When will I end this grieving ? When will my future begin ?
This disqualifies a certain sector of the development industry where the next release of X product will determine the ongoing fate of the company, and so everything else goes out the window as you try to meet some deadline.
Absent parents cause all sorts of problems -- kids with substance abuse issues, teen parents, low self-esteem... Trust me: I went to a private high school where a fair number of the kids were from rich up-and-coiming families, and a disproportionate number of them were burnouts or had serious problems.
No job and no amount of money is worth seeing your kids slide down the tubes. I'd rather be broke with well-adjusted successful kids than be a millionaire with my kid in rehab.
Every year during my review, I just pray the words "slashdot.org" aren't mentioned.
Family First.
If your employer can't handle your family obligations, then Family First says you get a new employer who can.
If you are on a project that suddenly requires a lot of work, but your child is sick, then Family First says you take care of your child first then do whatever you can to help out with the project second (if that means late nights, it means late nights, if it means burdening your coworkers then burden them).
Maybe I am fortunate, but I have always worked for companies and/or managers that understand the Family First rule, though that might be because all but one of them had kids, too (the only mgr I had who did not have kids was a complete jerk anyway, and he was soon fired for it).
the hours.
If you can't be home on a regular basis (more than a few times a week, at at least one whole day free) at a reasonable time (in time for dinner or sooner) and be willing to spend quality time with your kid you need to find a new job or expect to not be much of an important part of your kid's life.
What job you're working doesn't matter. It's the hours you work. The hours you are home. And the ability to bond with your kid effectivly within the time you have.
Ben
Work Safe Porn
It is a matter of priorities. Either your family or your job will come first. I realize there is a catch-22 there, but let me explain.
If you are willing to put your familiy first, seek after a programming job in a company that does not make "death marches" a regular occurance. It isn't hard to spot this kind of tendency in a corporate culture during a job interview. It usually comes out in the kinds of questions the interviewer asks anyway.
If a career comes first for you, then find the best paying job you can where you will be happy at. You don't have the prerequisite of needing to balance your time with family life.
Of course the best option is a combination of the two. Maybe you can find an employer who will let you work flexible hours, or from home, or whatever. In any event, the bottom line is that you need to find a job that is in line with your priorities with respect to career and family.
-- yawn. --
To offer a concrete example or two, it is generally better to work for a product oriented company than some place actively looking for projects (send us anything in area X and we will implement it for you). The reason is that product timelines have a bit more flexibility since you're not generally working to please a specific customer, and it also means there will be more planning and (hopefully) fewer adhoc features creeping in.
Another thing is perceptions, though. It's important to make sure that there are other parents in these places. If you're the lone 9 to 5er in a stable full of 20-somethings on the fast track to burnout, then you're going to be noticed and probably not in a positive way (I am narrowly considering the number of hours you have available to put in, of course). My anecdotal evidence, there were subtle cases of discrimination (a loaded term in the US, I know) against programmers with "other" responsbilities when it comes to doing crunch projects. Management tends to favour those who have expressed willingness to throw countless hours into a project. YMMV.
Another thing is, some companies will actually seek to ease your parenting workload, for instance, my last place of work had a daycare facility in the campus itself, so that any employee could drop their toddlers off and pick them up at the end of the working day. It seemed to work out all right and it was only marginally more expensive than conventional daycare (I think.. I don't have any kids ;)
Having said all of that, I think you may be surprised at how resilient kids can be about parents who are actually busy doing work some of the time. It may be an unpopular view, but so long as my parents were there some of the time, I didn't really notice the difference. Both of my parents worked (till their retirement a few years back) and I was a latchkey kid for quite a while. I think having siblings also helps :) I have 3 siblings, so it meant a lot of time playing with them :) It also helped me that I am introverted and didn't mind curling up somewhere with a book. The point is that I think your kids won't mind you occasionally staying late at work (so long as it doesn't happen frequently/regularly).
To conclude, I agree with the parent poster, kudos on planning to spend more time with your kids.. if my former co-workers are any indication, I think that will serve to give you a much sharper focus for getting in, getting the job done ASAP and going home..
Sorry, but I'm gunna have to call the cops. Letting your kids learn VB is obvious neglect. You should have beaten the tar out of him when he installed Visual Studio -- even if he wanted to do C++. You have to nip this in the bud.
If management is smart enough to plan ahead at all, the marathon coding sessions will be rare and predictable. (Release on this date means that the week two weeks previous will be long hours, and the week before will be chaotic; but you know this two months in advance). If you don't know when your releases will be, management is clearly insane and likely to be ineffective.
As far as long hours, I'm firmly convinced that no good software design gets done while someone is at work. All of the major breakthroughs are made while you're asleep. The only reason to go to work is to type them in and tell people about them. Of course, you'll make some progress on things you're not working directly on, so a 90-hour week once in a while (generally at the last minute before the testing cycle) is good to clean out all the bright ideas you don't know you've had. But a 90-hour week severely cuts into the actually generation of insight, so it kills the next week or two of work (which may be okay, if your next week or two is mostly sitting around waiting for bug reports). If you're doing regular 90-hour weeks, you're working part time and have an extra fulltime job staring mindlessly at a computer.
True dat-
I work at a university, and my pay is okay, but not great.
We don't have deadlines, and I don't have a pager. I do check my systems to make sure they are running on the weekends, but that is for my own reasons, not my bosses. (I believe I have come in about 4 times on the weekend in the past 5 years to clear up a problem, and each time my boss says "you know you didn't have to do that")
I was offered a job at an outside company, with a 50% pay increase. My bonuses would be tied to the hours I billed to a client. Anything above 35 hours a week (billed) I would have been paid double-time. I could have easily doubled my salary by putting in some extra hours each week.
I declined the job and I have not regretted that decision at all. I spend plenty of time with my family (15 holidays/year, 12 sick days, and 3 weeks of vacation a year) and I'm not going to get an ulcer.
You would have to pay me 10 times what I make now to get me to consider switching over to a high-pressure commercial situation. My priorities are quality of LIFE, not quality of STUFF.
No reason to lie.
The whole situation definitely depends upon YOU. If you can create a clear separation in you life between work and family, everything will probably be copacetic.
Although you will want to attend all of the birthday parties, school plays, and sports events you may not be able to attend them all. Choose your battles wisely.
"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." Author C. Clark
In the modern market, there aren't many big, stable companies that hire large programming departments and yet don't give them mission-critical work.
There are some, but they are few, far between, and already full of talented programmers who aren't planning on leaving any time soon.
While the goal is great and I agree with it, the fact is that it is very, very difficult to find this sort of IT work, and you may be left looking for years (during which time you will need to deal with family issues, of course).
My basic rule for surviving is simple: refuse to be exploited. I work very little overtime, and I never work on weekends (except when there's a very serious problem, which happens almost never). My career has gone quite well, and I've actually never been accused of being a slacker or anything like that (probably because I produce a lot).
Just say no to routine overtime; if you're a good worker during your 40-hour weeks, no sane boss would make a big deal about you wanting to have a life outside of work. If your boss does make a big deal about it, look for another job (or just ignore the unreasonable requests and keep doing good work; you'll probably outlast the bad bosses if you're a good worker).
By the way, I've found that hourly contracting is actually a good way to avoid unreasonable requests for overtime. If they ask you to stay late, just point out that it's costing them $75/hour extra (or whatever) and they'll probably back off.
Have you read my blog lately?
> The point is that I think your kids won't mind you
> occasionally staying late at work (so long as it
> doesn't happen frequently/regularly).
I know you've written you don't have kids, but as a father whose son turns two just today and whose wife is pregnant, I can tell you that you're missing an aspect you can't know.
I don't want to be at home with my family because I think my son might be somehow "damaged" by me not being there. He'd be just fine, he's a strong personality. I want to be at home to be with my family - be with my wife and see my son and the soon-to-come grow up. Kids grow up only once, you know, and watching videos isn't the same thing. I thought I could imagine how intense it is, but I had no idea. If you plan on getting kids sometime in the future, look forward to it! It's great. Stressful most of the time, but *very* rewarding.
And there's something else. I personally don't need a job, I only need *money*. Working is a pointless waste of time if you look at it objectively. You only go there for the money, and overtime isn't usually paid for, at least where I work. So why spend more time there than necessary while the family has fun at home?
Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk?
-I think my son might be somehow "damaged" by me not being there. He'd be just fine, he's a strong personality.-
This is just plain wrong. Your children WILL suffer psychologically, emotionally and developmentally by not having a father around.
I work to support my family. I don't have a family to support my work.
You can tell a great deal about the character of a man by observing those who hate him.
Dude, you just touched a nerve with that "discrimination" concept. I grok where you're coming from -- but please understand that the "discrimination" feeling cuts both ways.
It doesn't matter whether a team is pulling 80-hour weeks or 40-hour weeks: If Paul Parenthood starts leaving work undone so he can be with Paul Jr., you just suggested that Joe stack the workplace deck with kids who can also leave work unfinished, all for the noble purpose of enabling management to shovel all the work down on those of us who don't have kids. Nice to have you out of the closet.
I realize that's not what you meant, and it's certainly not what you (or Paul Parenthood) intends, but it's what happens.
The common line (usually from a manager with kids) is something like "Well, we're asking you because you don't have children, you don't understand how much harder it is now that Paul has kids now, and because you don't, well, you obviously have so much more spare time than he does, well, we'd like you to do Paul's work."
If asking Paul Parenthood to keep up his productivity is "discriminating against him because he has kids", then so is asking Sam Singleton to pick up Paul's slack when he says he can't.
If there's any advice to the new parent here, it's to be aware that your single, childless, and/or childfree co-workers may feel just as shafted by management as you do!
If there's a silver lining behind this cloud, it's that the friction between parents and single/childfrees is caused to lousy management, not some evilness inherent to breeders or kid-haters. The two camps don't have to hate each other -- nor should they.
I'm lucky to work at a place where I, as a childfree employee, can say "Dude, I need to take care of Geeky Stuff [LOTR comes out, supplies for a LAN party] this afternoon", and he'll say "Go for it, I'll hold down the fort while you're gone." Likewise, my co-workers can say "Dude, I need to take care of Parental Stuff this afternoon", and I'll say "Cool, I'll hold the fort while you're out." More importantly, we're just as comfortable asking those questions in front of -- and sometimes to -- our manager.
It's rare, but there do exist managers who are sufficiently clued to realize that as far as Sam Singleton is concerned, seeing LOTR or setting the weekend's LAN party is just as emotionally important to Sam, as setting up the kid's birthday party is to Paul Parenthood.
If you're in management: Go thou and do likewise. For the sake of all your employees.
Your children WILL suffer psychologically, emotionally and developmentally by not having a father around.
Depends on the father. My father wasn't around much when I was a kid, and I would thanks the gods for that on a regular basis. Maybe I've suffered developmentally anyhow in some way, but hey, I'm sure it would have been much worse if he was around more.
I was one programmer in a three-person startup company. I had two kids, both under 5. I was a single dad. I had to work 15-20 hour days, at times, to get the company off the ground. I had no problem - I left at 5:24pm when my train departed downtown, and got home by 6:15pm to pickup the kids from daycare. I fed them, bathed them, got them ready for the next day, and got them off to sleep. After that, I resumed my coding until 1-2am, then got up to do it all again. THEY never knew what I did after they were asleep - only I did. They came out just fine.
Don't code when they're around, don't ignore them for the CRT - don't ignore them for the boob tube, either, for that matter. DON'T IGNORE THEM. And when they have a recital/play/sporting event, GO HOME AND TAKE THEM.
Forget the boss. If they don't get it, get a different job. Pick one - family or career - to be numero uno. Once the other becomes secondary, it all works out just fine, and you will never look back.
Look, here are a ton of great ideas in these responses, but I'd like to add one more that I haven't seen yet.
I have a 5-year old, and a 2-year-old, and they (with the wifey of course) are the absolute center of my existence. When we relocated from Switzerland to Manhattan, I went without work for 9 months. In that span, I spent a tremendous amount of time looking for the desk job in big companies here on Wall Street - Goldman Sachs, Guardian, etc.
But it was a complete waste of time, and I would have never known it.
I also contacted several smallish companies (less than 20 staff) that had minimal-to-no IT staff. They also happened to be financial research firms, and needed desperate help building business systems that were proprietary, internal, and provided competitive advantage. It is these companies that I am making a relatively good living from today, and I DO IT FROM HOME.
I'm paid (and trusted) because of my experience, multi-talented background, and that I have a network of folks I can contact in a pinch to get anything done. I'm not asking for the big bucks, just enough for a family of four to live in comfort and some reasonable financial safety.
I see my kids every day, I am home for lunch every day, and we all love the setup more than you would ever believe.
A VERY important addition to this little tale: my 5-year-old was recently diagnosed with epilepsy - not the hollywood-version where she flops around like a fish on the floor, but the type where she just stares off into NeverNeverLand, and has no idea that the conversation has moved on (when she comes back to you) - in short, this little girl is fighting a battle for control over her mind, a battle that she frequently loses.
Now, realistically, be the wife here. You got a 2-year-old who has 'defensive lineman' written all over him, and he is a handful... On top of that, you have a 5-year-old that you are now homeschooling - there's no rational expectation that she will get patience and understanding in a room with 30 other kids, and an overworked/underpaid teacher that is pressured over the big numbers, not over the quiet little girl sitting in the back...
DANGER, WILL ROBINSON!
Understand that becoming a parent is not always the perfect picture - and always being gone is a recipe for disaster, as not only are you spending all your time making someone else rich, you are also committing to not being there for your family when they may need you the most.
If you really have been at this for some years, and have been successful at it, then you should be able to find two or three smaller companies that need your expertise, and take on projects with all of them. None of the projects will be grand on an individual scale, and none of these companies could afford a large-scale project anyway! You take the three projects, and add the income up to a very good 'salary' with the ability to stay home with your family, and you also get the challenge of solving a diverse array of problems for different people.
You will have fun! No whiners because you stop work to have dinner with the kids, as you will be home anyway. You are a grownup now, and can(should) set that schedule yourself!
"The mind is a terrible thing to, um, uh, oh bollocks." -- Me
Well, I have worked in plces that develop big commercial software, and I agree 100% with the grandparent.
There is almost no excuse for death march projects in modern software development. It is just poor management and/or a team not experienced enough to tell management that they don't know what the hell they are doing (in a diplomatic way naturally).
I'm a software engineer. The demands of the job vary- at times, I've been called upon to put in 60+ stressful hours every week. At times, ~40 non-stressful hours has been plenty.
Bear in mind that your employer does not necessarily have your best interests in mind. This isn't a knock at any current or past employer of mine, or of anyone else. It's simply a fact- they will always welcome you working more hours (salaried folks, you know what I'm talking about). It's up to you to set limits. Many employers will respect those limits. They may limit your career advancement (either in terms or raises, or promotions, or both) - keep that in mind, but set priorities. How important is your family versus your current (or potential future) rewards at work? If you don't think that this is a difficult question, you may not be thinking hard enough.
In December of 2002, I found myself stressing out that I was spending too much time at work (over the last ~2 years) and not enough time at home. I kept thinking, "I must do something about this soon!"
At that time, my step-daughter took her own life. She was going through a lot of troubles. The brutal truth of the matter is that I was spending so much time and energy at work that I was often not home, and when I was, I was not interacting much with my wife or step-daughter.
I believe that my inattention and lack of commitment to my family at that time was a primary contributor to that situation. I don't believe that it was the sole cause, but I do believe that it was a primary factor. I'll never know for sure. No one will.
Had I quit my job at that time, I would have sacrificed my family's primary source of income. We could not have paid our bills, including the mortgage on our house. We'dve lost our home, our car, and our livelihoods. Clearly, that would not have been a good situation.
I believe that I could have found a better balance than the one that I did.
All I can do for others is suggest that they seek a balance.
While I'm on the soapbox (I very rarely post on slashdot), I'll also mention that she was on Accutane. I have no evidence that this was a direct cause of what happened, but I firmly believe it to be true. If you have children, I strongly encourage you to learn more about accuatane before you allow them to consume it. Check the PDR, periodicals, the web, or whatever other resources that you feel comfortable with. Also, ask yourself the same question that I (implicitly) encourage you to ask above: Is this issue worth it? Is your child's life/well-being worth this risk?
I've personally found that programming and parenthood it VERY difficult to balance:
- Every place I've worked, both big and small, impose unhealthy expectations of developers.
- As a community we are often our own worst enemies because we often "volunteer" extra time by staying late on our own, especially when single and not yet with children. The pattern of behavior is easy to understand: usually we're young, eager to learn and produce, but it then sets the bar very high regarding what kind of commitment a developer is supposed to have towards work.
A few of things to keep in mind:
- It's only a job, if you love programming, then they cannot take that away from you. Save your fun programming for yourself.
- It's only a job (yes, I said it twice), if your current employer is a prick regarding expected commitment, leave. I really mean it: leave. A-holes who expect gratis death-march labor without giving back in a big and meaningful way deserve to be put out of business. Period.
- As far as is scientifically known this is your ONLY LIFE. The extra time you put into work and not spending time with your loved-ones WILL NOT COME BACK! Always keep this in the forefront of your mind.
- Stand your ground: DON'T do weekends, DON'T do extra hours. Even if you get paid hourly, this financial situation is no license to assume that all of your free time is up for sale. Commit extra time, but place limits. If found that if you behave as if your time is valuable people will respect that. If they don't: leave.
- Whining a-holes that are in a situation where they can "freely" donate ridiculous quantities of their "free" time that bitch about "Paul Parenthood" going home without "finishing their work" can talk to the hand. Grow up: until science provides (scary) alternatives to continuing our species though procreation we are responsible for RAISING OUR CHILDREN. You are someone's child, think from the child's point of view does this make sense: "Ok Daddy/Mommy stay at work late or on the weekends because the 'project's gotta get done' and you don't want all the shit to flow to the D.I.N.Ks. and singles, besides, why would you want to spend time with me?" The first time one of you mal-adjusted idiots complain to me about folks going home after business hours are over will find your sorry asses on the unemployment line. Seek professional help.
- If your managing programmers (and I did this OFTEN as a engineering director) CHASE PEOPLE OUT OF THE OFFICE. You won't have whiny a-holes because you make it clear that your EMPLOYEES are there for REGULAR BUSINESS HOURS. IF you REGULARLY expected people to put in long hours than PAY THEM HOURLY! I'll say it again PAY THEM HOURLY!!! It is the ONLY ETHICAL THING TO DO. Any argument to the contrary is self-serving rationalization.
Conclusion:
Personally, get out of the software business. DON'T stop coding if that is your calling, just code for yourself and others. Spread the fruits of you labor.
If you only went into programming as a job, then continue because you don't really care, but there are better ways to make a living.
Disclaimer: I have not yet entered the work force.
I'm the child of a programmer. (Yeah, I've ended up as a programmer too--or will end up as one, once I finish school.) I don't really have a baseline to compare it to, but I think my father does fairly well.
He's technically a consultant, although he's been working eight-to-five at the same job for several years. Being a consultant gave him the flexibility to find time to coach most of my sports teams (a couple years of Little League and AYSO, plus nearly a decade of roller hockey). The few hockey teams he didn't coach, he was involved at the school or even league level.
Consultancy doesn't give you the benefits--health, retirement, etc.--of a normal job, but it makes the trade-off more explicit: each hour you take off from work has a specific dollar amount attached to it. The decision is simple: is it worth $30 or $60 or whatever it is you make per hour to see your kid sing or play or do whatever (s)he is doing? Your schedule is yours to determine, as long as you make sure you get your contracts done.
My father's division used to belong to a large non-technical corporation; recently, some of its employees bought the division from the corporation it belonged to. My father was one of the investors, so he's changed from a consultant to a salaried worker. (His job duties have also changed--they're having him dabble in managing other programmers while still doing most of the design work. He isn't a suit--yet--as most of his time is still consumed by interacting with the computer and designing various parts of the program he works on.)
Since that change, he's been spending more time at work; he still seems to find time for actual events, but he's been missing dinner more often, and stuff like that. I can't tell if the change is because he's working for a salary now, or if it's because he's now working for a small company instead of a large corporation, or if it's because of his new job duties--there are no control groups in life.
I get the sense that my father's situation was somewhat unusual, so you may want to take this whole thing with a bit of NaCl, but it's something to think about.
I will say this, though: if any of your kids are technical types, they will idolize you. And even fi they aren't, they'll be glad to have the kind of dad who can fix all the gadgets around the house.
Hey, you try to find an open nick these days!
but a dad. When my wife and I had our first child, a good friend advised us to become a single income household. he gave lots of reasons but the impact on children was the single most important. We are fortunate that my job (Army) pays well enought for us to be able to do that. Our life is not lavish - we average 9 years per car, 4 years per computer and it will be a long time before all our furtunature matches. On the other hand our children are healthy and well adjusted. You cant put a price on that. Another friend told me to abide by the rule of God first, family second and work third with the understanding that sometimes they will be out of balance but as long as you maintain a long term balance, you will be OK. Long hours in the Army tend to last months so when I can spend time with my family I do. My boss has always understood when I left for doctors appointments, soccer games and PTA meetings because they have alwasys known that somewhere down the line will be 90+ hour weeks. We both know that if we say its important, it really is (it has to work both ways and your family has to know that sometimes work is important). I count myself lucky in that respect becausee many of my friends have had bosses that work them for sport. Some things I have learned about time with my kids:
Doctors appointmnts are more important than I thought. Go if you can.
30 minutes of reading to your kids before bed is worth hours doing almost anything else.
Bring them to your office once in awhile if you can. I never knew how important this was until I changed jobs that did not allow any outside visitors and my kids couldnt see where I was when I was not home.
Show up for lunch at their school twice a year and they will talk about it all year and be the envy of 90% of their friends.
Make parent teacher conferences. If the teachers know you are involved, 50% of the normal issues never even happen.
include your family in any work related recognition. It lets them kow why you were gone and reminds your boss how important your family is to you.
Someday I intend to retire. I plan on having a family to spend time with. Your company will not show up at your funeral, your family will (ok, turth in lending, my company will!).
Good luck!