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A New Look For Firefox
ben writes "Regular users of Mozilla Firefox may be interested to know a new default theme is planned for 0.9 in preparation for the road to 1.0. 0.9 will also feature new improved theme and extension management, which will make it easy to make Firefox look the way you want it to."
...They leave everything as it is, and fix the resource leak in windows? It's hard to try and convince people to switch to my browser when I have to "end process tree" the thing once a day.
Send lawyers, guns, and money!
Qute was a great Default theme. It looked great as a default theme, and really made switchers from IE feel comfortable. This new theme just doesnt fit in Windows or Linux... it looks good for OSX, but just not in other OSes.
in the browser market, you'd be looking to take it from Internet Explorer (duh). That's Internet Explorer on Windows ... not the Mac. I think that it is important to have a default theme that makes it easy for the mums and dads to identify with (because they are not likely to change it). I think the current default theme does this and the proposed change is a mistake. But what do I know?
The important things like fixing the preferences, the weird, fatal bugs can wait! We want fun eye candy!!!
Yeah, right.
This is why I like open source software development. Just look at that forum thread. Inside a company like IBM or Microsoft, a debate like this would be kept covered up out of PR fears. Open source developers more often than not do not give a shit about PR (which is a good thing), they just want to make the best possible program. They also don't have to be afraid of losing their jobs, getting their salaries lowered, or whatnot. So we get to see the nitty gritty details of intra-project disputes and arguments from the front row, even silly things like what theme ships with Firefox as the default.
Gotta love it.
Quality, performance, value; you get only two, and you don't always get to pick.
Some people prefer FireFox, some prefer Opera. It's really a matter of opinion. I'm tempted to say that for your average end-user, FireFox is the better choice, and for many power users, installing lots of plugins is the way to go.
Personally, I agree with you, I've been a happy Opera user for years. That doesn't mean that FireFox should be more like Opera, it's just a different approach.
Yes I do think this could have been handled a *lot* better because Arvid but a lot of work into this excellent theme and now is word will be getting a lot less attention as it'll now just be a downloadable theme on update.mozilla.org
Also as you can see from the forum thread mentioned in the original article you can see the information process wasn't the best.
However, ultimately difficult decisions have to be made and they can't satisfy everyone all of the time.
If you look at the original charter for m/b, Phoenix, Firebird, Firefox you'll see that they intended from the very beginning to have only a small group of people making the decisions.
To quote:
The size of the team working on the trunk is one of the many reasons that development on the trunk is so slow. We feel that fewer dependencies (no marketing constraints), faster innovation (no UI committees), and more freedom to experiment (no backwards compatibility requirements) will lead to a better end product.
...poor forum server is screaming...
Consistency across platforms or within platforms is quite a non-issue to us KDE users : the Plastik and Keramik themes for Mozilla and Firefox are beautifully integrated in the KDE desktop, so whatever the default themes becomes, we'll still be happy.
As long as skinning is avaible, everybody should be happy.
I've managed plenty of software development teams before, and you just don't assign any random engineer to make important UI decisions. Some people have the talent for this and some don't. It's part aesthetics, part usability, part style. Very important stuff, and not something you learn getting a computer science degree, hacking Unix, writing HTML rendering engines and so on.
Now I know you can just download themes to your heart's content. I'm using a tiny theme because that's the way I like it. However there's no reason not to have several default themes to choose from at install time. I would suggest the themes be "Default", "Internet Explorer", "Netscape", "Opera" and perhaps a Macish theme. As long as it is explained that this is simply the look and feel and has no real functionality differences (explained in a calm and simple manner), things should be less scary. Previous posters are absolutely right-- the more different it looks, the more scared the user will be, even if everything is in exactly the same place.
Please don't end up like the XFree86 developers, and completely ruin your project. Listen to the users, just give it a try. Now that wasn't that hard now was it?
I love Firefox, without doubt the best browser yet, and it isn't even 1.0. Keep it fast and light, bloat is what made regular Mozilla suck, face it.
The Mozilla devs did the right thing and asked about having Qute freely licenced 6 months ago. They were apparently told no and have therefore taken the only reasonable course left to them, sourcing another theme.
The new theme might not be brilliant but it is a work in progress and rather importantly is freely licenced so other people will be able to tweak it over time.
Boffoonery - downloadable Comedy Benefit for Bletchley Park
I've seen IE barf on pages before. No browser is going to be perfect and I think explaining to people that you may have to close and restart a browser during the day (if they keep it open THAT long) is a lot easier than saying "ok, if you close those 5 pop ups and uninstall CometCursor, you'd see the page you're lookin for."
- gtaluvit (prnc. GOT-tuh-LUV-it)
The backwards HIG does not apply.
So it is a bug.
If Bill Gates weren't so poor, he could fix that
You are just an ass. What could Bill do when you reach your physical memory? Blue Screen? Kill the faulty app? Start paging?
Well, it looks like they chose the best of all three options...
Write boring code, not shiny code!
It may be just me but when the 'lean', 'no-nonsense' and 'stripped' version of software requires 27MB to run with two open tags I think it's perfectly fine to blame the developers of that software, even if there were no extra resource leaks.
I hope someone will write a browser that will parse only valid XHTML 1.1/CSS and nothing else. Would cut the executable in half not to try to support the horrible code people put on the web a few years ago.
Marxist evolution is just N generations away!
Since AOL spun off Mozilla it's been the fastest developing major scale Open Source project in the world, and immensely popular. It's a ridiculous argument to make that because 'bogie' didn't get personalized service their development model is a failure. If you think I'm wrong, please try the same thing with Microsoft, Apple, or Sun and report back on your success. Damn, where do these people get off thinking the open source development model has some equivalency to ordering re-fills on ice tea at the local diner?
If I wanted Firefox to look the same on all platforms, I would just use Mozilla.
write his OS so that applications that aren't in use get put out to swap and stay there. I'll admit I don't really understand the technical aspects here, but the complaint seems to be that the this is 'thrashing'; which usually means _sustained_ memory swapping for no really good reason. I've had plenty of instances of that in WinXP, and a lot less of it in Linux (and I've heard great things about the BSD's but I'm too lazy to install them right now). Anyway you cut it though, I think we'll all agree the memory management in WinXP (and probably every other OS on the planet to be fair) could use some work. The grandparant is just ticked off that with all the money XP costs, something as basic as memory management isn't a top priority.
Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
And here is a complete screenshot of the new theme. I think this is a huge step backwards.
Remember that to gain market share, you have to design the product for the average idiot. Yes, you know the one; the guy that thought his CDROM was a cup holder.
To win the average idiot, you need simple layout, bright colors, and hand-holding wizards.
I'd rather be a conservative nutjob than a liberal with no nuts and no job.
KDE has been using that standard longer
Calendar priority examples are bad examples. Mac OS has used (Cancel)(OK) since January 1984.
I don't see other popular media players using the standard windows UI. Do you?
.app bundle and high-res icon. They end up accepting it alot more easily than an application that didn't fit the Mac look and feel. Similarly, when you run VLC in Windows, it LOOKS and FEELS like a windows app, and on linux, it LOOKS and FEELS like a linux app. Hell, on BeOS, it looks and feels like a beos app.
The above is a moot point, anyway. Keeping the UI of an application consistent with the UI of all the other apps on a particular OS is very important if you want to increase the rate of adoption. Media players are an exception because just about every media player fux up the UI to a confusing level.
Take the look and feel of another popular open source media player as an example. When my mac buddies look for a video player capable of playing mpeg-2 (or whatever file-type it is they're having problems with that day) if I point them to VLC, they love it! It looks and feels exactly like any other mac application they use, from the metal UI, to the menu at the top of the screen, to the double-clickable
I think it would be a step backwards for FireFox to consolidate on a single theme across all platforms.
She loves me: 09F911029D74E35BD84156C5635688C0 She loves me not: 09F911029D74E35BD84156C5635688BF
It'd be nice if Firefox could detect KDE and switch its button order. However, as Firefox is written in GTK and KDE already has its own non-Gecko browser, probably most of the Firefox developers aren't KDE users and don't care. If you do care, go ahead and code it.
It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.
Please. This just shows your lack of understanding of the entire issue. The reason that your examples appear under each other is because display is not inherited. Therefore the divs inside test and test2 have a display:block - the breaks caused by such a block level element cause them to be displayed on a new line.
Basic CSS, confused by the fact you have nested it in another div.
Free iPods - now in the UK!
once again backwards compatibility has been sacrificed (and we are not even at 1.0 yet)
Uh, hello? How did this get modded up?
Rather than feeding this relatively obvious troll, I'll simply remind folks that the whole POINT of the pre-1.0 development cycle is to break things. And nobody's forcing anyone else to use Firefox, stable or not. End of story.
To win the average idiot, you need simple layout, bright colors, and hand-holding wizards.
To win the average idiot, you need to do two things:
1.) Make something fun to use. That encompasses everything from a pleasant visual look to a simple yet powerful interface. Something most OSS lacks.
2.) Don't call them "idiots." They're not idiots just because they have enough of a life to not treat browser and operating system wars like religious crusades, like we do.
"Sufferin' succotash."
You are clearly talking about a larger issue, which I can't really speak to, but I can definitely say that the thread you linked to does *not* support your case.
I read it through, and here's what I saw:
1) A professional email from Ben Gooder saying that Firefox was taking a new direction due to a combination of licencing and UI considerations
2) A less-than-polite response from the Qute designer, with both the original and the reply posted to a public forum in violation of basic decency
3) A lot of ignorant flaming of the decision and back-seat driving from people who were not privy to the details of the decision and ignored what they were told about it by Ben Gooder's follow-up post. Interestingly, the people doing said flaming all seemed coincidentally to prefer the Qute theme.
4) Many people who either didn't like Qute or were reserving judgement one way or the other until they had time to make an informed decision based on the complete theme and actual use.
5) The Qute fanatics almost exclusively ignoring the people in 4) and claiming that everyone likes Qute better, and that ignoring "the preferences of the end users" was completely against what Firefox should be about (I'll leave the hypocricy in that as an excercise for the reader).
I certainly did see a lot of disrespect in that thread, but it was all *toward* Ben Gooder, and not *by* him. After reading that thread, what I'm left with is a lack of respect for people who lash out ignorantly and disrespectfully against someone who spends a whole lot of time working on a browser that they all use and enjoy.