Slashdot Mirror


SELEX at Fermilab Discovers New Particle

sellthesedownfalls writes "Scientists at the Department of Energy's Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory will announce on Friday, June 18 the observation of an unexpected new member of a family of subatomic particles called 'heavy-light' mesons. The new meson, a combination of a strange quark and a charm antiquark, is the heaviest ever observed in this family, and it behaves in surprising ways -- it apparently breaks the rules on decaying into other particles. See the Fermilab Press Release."

36 of 259 comments (clear)

  1. False Alarm by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

    My bad, I sneezed into the particle accelerator. Sorry guys.

    1. Re:False Alarm by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

      allegedly true story:

      when CERN finished the construction of LEP, back in the day, they had a problem when they turned it on. the beam wouldn't align to collide and they had no idea why.

      upon further inspection, the problem was (allegedly) caused by a bottle of Heineken left behind in one of the beam tubes by a construction worker...

    2. Re:False Alarm by worst_name_ever · · Score: 4, Informative

      The alleged story is indeed mostly true (reference here) although apparently it was two Heineken bottles, and the the theory of how they got there is that it was a prank, not an oversight during construction.

      --

      In Soviet Rush, today's Tom Sawyer gets high on you.
    3. Re:False Alarm by Tackhead · · Score: 5, Funny
      > The alleged story is indeed mostly true (reference here) although apparently it was two Heineken bottles, and the the theory of how they got there is that it was a prank, not an oversight during construction.

      The story is in an indeterminate state between truth and falsity, and apparently the number of bottles is in an indeterminate state between 1 and 2, and the theory of how they got there is referred to as the Heineken uncertainty principle.

  2. Re:Slashdot Reader Discovers New Oxymoron by p3tersen · · Score: 5, Informative

    It's a bound state of two quarks. The charm quark is "heavy", i.e. relatively massive, while the the strange quark is less so.

  3. Rules by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Many things will end up breaking the "rules" before it's all over.

    1. Re:Rules by Tyler+Durden · · Score: 3, Insightful
      I'm not sure when it will be "over," but chances are that we'll be over before we learn all we could about the universe (possibly due to misunderstanding how it works).

      Or even, maybe it never can be "over". Perhaps there will always be weaknesses in theories to explain weaknesses in older ones, ad infinitum. All theories are simply models to reduce the workings of the universe to a form we can make sense of. There may be no perfect model.

      I forgot who said this, but there's a quote that reads something like, "Not only is the universe stranger than we imagined, but it may be stranger than we can imagine."

      --
      Happy people make bad consumers.
  4. What, no pictures? by BrianMarshall · · Score: 5, Funny
    The meson lifetime is 10 (-24) seconds, or about the amount of time it takes light to cross a proton.

    Now, I think this is the lifetime of the usual shorter-lived mesons, but still...

    --
    "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro" -- HST
    1. Re:What, no pictures? by Pi_0's+don't+shower · · Score: 5, Informative

      This is definitely "order of magnitude" a typical strong decay.

      There are two things which are unusual about this, however:

      1) It's a strong decay, and the particle is more massive than other exotic (with more than just down/up quarks) mesons, but this one lives longer than light mesons in its family. Whether this means it's longer lived than charm-down or charm-up mesons or longer lived than a lighter resonance of charm-strange isn't enunciated here, but either way, that's a surprise. There may be some type of parity conservation at work.

      (NB - strong interactions conserve parity)

      2) It decays into an eta particle much more often (6x more) than decay into a kaon. This is unusual, because more phase space is available for kaons (they have less mass than etas, therefore it's energetically favorable). Again, this could be related to parity issues, like pion decay (prefers muons over less-massive electrons), but that isn't enunciated here either.

      It just goes to show that there's a lot left to investigate just in the basic standard model -- something that a lot of the SUSY/string-loving public forgets quite often. (IAAP, btw)

    2. Re:What, no pictures? by athakur999 · · Score: 4, Funny

      I can tell you from personal experience that crossing a proton is a BAD IDEA. Those bastards have a really short temper. I'd say 10(-24) is a pretty conservative estimate of how long it takes to piss a proton off.

      --
      "People that quote themselves in their signatures bother me" - athakur999
  5. Stupid question! by saderax · · Score: 3, Insightful

    IANAP(hysicist) ... Do these mesons occur in nature? If not, how can it be claimed a new "discovery." In the same manner, I can glue a poptart to a can of coke and "discover" a new product that has the edible goodness of poptarts and the drinkable properties of coke.

    1. Re:Stupid question! by p3tersen · · Score: 4, Insightful
      Do these mesons occur in nature?

      Doubtful.

      If not, how can it be claimed a new "discovery."

      They "discovered" that nature behaves in a certain way. How is it not a "discovery"? You can't call it an "invention" because it's not like they're designing these particles before creating them.
    2. Re:Stupid question! by Bingo+Foo · · Score: 4, Interesting
      If by "in nature" you mean "in Yosemite and Yellowstone and on Mounts Fuji and Kilimanjaro" then no. But are there violent, high-energy events in astronomical circumstances in which these particles would be briefly found? Yes. By "discovering" the particles in the lab, they mean that they are discovering that nature works in such a way as to allow those particles to exist and have those mass/lifetime properties.

      BTW, even if there were particles which only existed in the high energies of the big bang and for 10^(-20) seconds afterwards, producing them in a hypothetical super-accelerator would still constitute a "discovery" rather than a creation or invention.

      --
      taken! (by Davidleeroth) Thanks Bingo Foo!
    3. Re:Stupid question! by Cecil · · Score: 3, Insightful

      By your definition, I'm not sure that anything at all can be called a discovery. That would make it a pretty meaningless and useless word, wouldn't it?

      If no one has ever seen a meson like this before then -- regardless of whether they've been flying around the universe for billions of years -- I consider it a discovery, because we (humanity) have never noticed it before now. It's new. It's a discovery.

  6. Re:118? by geeber · · Score: 3, Informative

    Victor Ninov at Lawerence Berkley National Laboratory.

    Let's hope Fermilab is more certain about this discovery.

  7. strange, charm, rule breaker: by burgburgburg · · Score: 4, Funny
    Now I want to sleep with it.

    I feel so dirty.

  8. A good quote by heyitsme · · Score: 5, Interesting
    I was just reading my copy of Fermilab Today (I am writing this from the lab) and saw this article. Then it appears on slashdot!

    The best description of this phenomenon comes from James Ross in the official press release:

    • "It's like watching a water bucket with a large hole and small hole in the bottom," Russ said. "For some reason, the water is pouring out the small hole six times faster than it's coming out of the large one. Something unusual must be going on inside the bucket."
  9. Re:Slashdot Reader Discovers New Oxymoron by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

    Sounds like my dating experiences. The charming ones are always fat, while the physically attravtive ones are always strange.

  10. Heretics by BearJ · · Score: 5, Funny
    I for one am sick of all these subatomic particles breaking the rules. Surely there must be some sort of law to stop these "dirty hippie" (if you will). They're unconstitutional, and against the american way!

    --
    Stand clear of the doors. The doors are now closing.
  11. Not a stupid question! by benhocking · · Score: 5, Informative

    Actually, they do occur in nature. Specifically, they occur when a sufficiently energetic cosmic ray strikes our atmosphere.

    This is the same reason that many physicists laugh off the idea that they're going to create a mini-black hole that would sink to the earth's core and destroy us all. The universe is constantly running even higher-energy experiments in our atmosphere all the time - we just haven't placed our detectors in the right place! (To be fair to our hard-working particle physicists, you would need a VERY large detector hovering high in the air if you wanted to catch these things in nature.)

    --
    Ben Hocking
    Need a professional organizer?
    1. Re:Not a stupid question! by Noren · · Score: 4, Interesting
      Cosmic rays from space can indeed be much more powerful than those created in particle accelerators- the seminal example is one of the few cosmic rays which has a name- the "Oh-My-God" particle (So named because of the exclamation the physicist was said to have made when he saw the data.) This cosmic ray had roughly 300 million times the energy of the protons Fermilab is able to produce, and was travelling at about v = 0.9999999999999999999999951 c.

      The really interesting part is that we don't really know what process would produce such a thing. Since then, several other cosmic rays(subscription required) entering the atmosphere with energies over 10^20 eV have been detected by Japanese, Russian, and American observers.

    2. Re:Not a stupid question! by barawn · · Score: 3, Interesting

      The really interesting part is that we don't really know what process would produce such a thing.

      Actually, it's worse than that. Not only do we not know what process would produce such a thing, we don't know how it would've gotten here in the first place. Above 6 x 10^19 eV, particles should interact with the microwave background, and lose energy (the "GZK cutoff"). In essence, there's a cosmic speed limit. The only way that particle could've gotten here is if it came from very close (so it didn't have time to slow down yet) - very close. Which makes the problem of "how the heck was this made?" even worse.

    3. Re:Not a stupid question! by barawn · · Score: 3, Informative

      I wouldn't think there would be an absolute cutoff there, but a (granted very steep) curve; which means that some very tiny fraction of particles *could* make it here with those energies (and who's to say what original energy level that particle started off with?)

      No, of course it's not an absolute cutoff - however, the slope is somewhere in the neighborhood of E^-10 or so, which may as well be an absolute cutoff. No matter how hard you try, you basically can't get much above 6 x 10^19 for more than about 50 megaparsecs. If the GZK cutoff really does exist (which... well, it better, it's very basic physics) then in the absence of sources we don't understand (which is what we think we have), we never should've seen these particles. The "normal" processes which generate particles less than 6E-19, convolved with the GZK effect, would've produced a flux so freaking low we never would've seen it.

      what are the odds that the particle in question could have resulted from the Big Bang energies once protons and neutrons started to form from the 'soup'? I realize it would have been traveling for quite a while and the odds would be infinitely small, but still, the mw background is just an average temperature, is it not?)

      Actually stuff that's formed from recombination era would be microwave background energies - because, well, that's what the microwave background is. :)

      But anyway, it's not just that we saw one particle, because the thing is, the detectors didn't run for that long, and they weren't that large (i.e. their acceptance was quite low). They would've had to have gotten astro-freaking-phenomenally lucky in order to see one that far away from the expected. It gets even worse when you have other detectors come online that also see those energy events.

      It's not the individual particles that interest us. It's the fact that there seems to be a real spectrum out there - there's something actually producing these energies, and either A) it's close, or B) we don't understand interactions at high energies, or C) all of the cosmic ray physics people are smoking something. Considering B) basically implies that one of the fundamental tenets of relativity is wrong - which would be bad , I'd like for it to be A, but I've got a feeling it'll turn out to be C. :)

  12. If they haven't been seen before... by Anomalous+Canard · · Score: 4, Informative

    ...it's a new discovery!

    We certainly expected that there would be a strange-anticharm meson, but until it was observed, there was no way to tell it's mass (except in a very broad range of likely masses for members of the heavy-light mesons) and it's lifetime. Quantum chromodynamics, while in many respects a remarkably precise theory, still has to have the masses of the particles put into the equations. In a real Theory of Everything, we'd be able to calculate the mass of such a meson before we'd seen it.

    These particles certainly exist in nature, but because their lifetime is so short, you'd have to be right where they were created to be able to see them before they decayed. Since our detector-on-the-surface-of-a-neutron-star project (affectionately called the DOTSOAN project) has had its funding denied again, the only place we can be observing right where they were created is right here on Earth in the accellerators.

    --
    Anomalous: deviating from what is usual, normal, or expected
    Canard: a false or unfounded repor
  13. Somebody's having a lot of fun at work... by GillBates0 · · Score: 4, Funny
    I don't know what to think of the DsJ+(2632)->Ds(eta)+ and D0K+" meson, but I can tell you these guys have a pretty good thing going for them at their cafetaria.

    Look at what they had for lunch on 06/17:
    Aztec Tortilla Soup
    Hot Italian Sub $4.75
    Chicken Picata $3.75
    Thai Beef $3.75
    Roast Beef Cheddar on Kaiser Roll $4.75
    Beef Strombolis $2.85
    Marinated or Cajun Chicken Caesar Salads $4.75

    It's a wonder they got any work done that day...

    --
    An Indian-American Hindu committed to non-violent thought/speech/action alarmed by the global explosion of radical Islam
    1. Re:Somebody's having a lot of fun at work... by heyitsme · · Score: 3, Informative

      It's a wonder they got any work done that day...

      With 6800 acres of buffalo, trails, and lakes, not to mention a swimming pool, basketball and tennis courts, a rec center and bar (the alcoholic type) its a wonder we ever get any work done around here :)

  14. No such thing as "breaks the rules" by G4from128k · · Score: 5, Insightful

    If the data and rules disagree (and the data is valid) then "the rules" were never ever really correct. This is the most interesting and cognitively confounding element of science. So many experiments cause the perceived "rules" to change when in fact the true rules of the universe never change, only our approximations and estimations of them. This is why I wonder if so much of science is really just curve-fitting (F = m*a + delta, where delta contains relativistic effects, quantum effects, etc.) Similarly, I wonder if E = mc^2 + delta, where delta includes effects unseen because we haven't tested the formula over the entire span of possible conditions (energies, distances, mass concentrations, etc.)

    As an aside, a friend in college was religious because of this very issue. He hated the fact that science couldn't "make up its mind" abut what was true or not -- for him, an erroneous certainty was more comfortable than a changing, but progressively more correct uncertainty.

    --
    Two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do.
  15. String theory implications? by jwkane · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Obviously any experiment that yields unexpected and reproducable results is great news for quantum theorists.

    I'm wondering if the theoretical predictions presented in the article tip the scales toward or away from any of the various theories of quantum structure. In particular:

    "SELEX also saw the new meson decay about six times more often than expected into an eta particle (a rarer but well-studied member of the meson family), rather than into the expected particle, called a K meson."

    It seems obvious that this experiment highlights a failure in our understanding of the strong force.

  16. Re:I like the way humans think by aducore · · Score: 3, Informative

    The rules are just the way we understand things. When something breaks the rules, it means we need to put the rules back together so that they aren't broken as easily.

    There's a difference between defying human theories of physics, and defying nature.

  17. Just as I suspected... by 14erCleaner · · Score: 3, Funny

    It really is turtles all the way down.

    --
    Have you read my blog lately?
  18. Re:Johnson Rod by Billy+the+Mountain · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I think this stuff DOES actually matter, I mean, physicists discovered quantum entanglement and now there's a the tantalizing possibility of the development unbreakable cyphers, quantum computers etc. Who knows what magical technology will come from these seemingly obscure discoveries. And I dare say that it doesn't take a physicist to come up with ways to harness these technologies, all it takes is a curious mind.

    BTM

    --
    That was the turning point of my life--I went from negative zero to positive zero.
  19. Re:In other news... by DJ+Rubbie · · Score: 5, Funny

    The fire at Los Alamos has had one significant consequence. A secret scientific document was discovered in a bunker whose security systems were mostly destroyed by the fire. This document was leaked to the public last weekend.

    Actually it reveals nothing that we didn't already suspect. But it does show that besides arsenic, lead, mercury, radon, strontium and plutonium, one more extremely deadly and pervasive element is known to exist.

    This startling new discovery has been tentatively named Governmentium (Gv) but kept top secret for 50 years. The new element has no protons or electrons, thus having an atomic number of 0. It does, however, have 1 neutron, 125 deputy neutrons, 75 supervisory neutrons, and 111 team leader neutrons, giving it an atomic mass of 312.

    These 312 particles are held together by a force called morons, that are surrounded by vast quantities of lepton-like particles called peons. Since it has no electrons, Governmentium is inert. However, it can be detected as it impedes every reaction with which it comes into contact.

    According to the discoverers, a minute amount of Governmentium causes one reaction to take over four days to complete when it would normally take less than a second. Governmentium has a normal half-life of approximately three years. It does not decay but instead undergoes a reorganization in which a portion of the deputy neutrons, supervisory neutrons, and team leader neutrons exchange places. In fact, Governmentium mass will actually increase over time, since, with each reorganization, some of the morons inevitably become neutrons, forming new isodopes.

    This characteristic of moron promotion leads some scientists to speculate that Governmentium is formed whenever morons reach a certain quantity in concentration. This hypothetical quantity is referred to as the "Critical Morass."

    http://www.appleseeds.org/governmentium.htm

    --
    Please direct all bug reports to /dev/null
  20. It's a bit more than curve fitting by erice · · Score: 3, Insightful

    There have been times where the best fitting equations were just like you say. They had parts that didn't correspond to any real understanding. They just made the equation work. Those are emperical results.

    Much science is about taking those emperical results and coming up with theory that explains what they mean.

  21. An adventure... by DrCode · · Score: 4, Funny

    >Look
    You see a meson.
    >Examine meson.
    It's too small for you to see.
    >Examine meson with microscope.
    The meson appears to be composed of too smaller particles, a quark and an antiquark.
    >Examine quark.
    The quark is strange.
    >Examine antiquark.
    The pleasant blue glow leads you to conclude that this is a charmed antiquark.
    >Rub antiquark.
    Your fingers are too big and clumsy.
    >Rub antiquark with cue-tip.
    You suddenly feel lucky.
    Two elf-nymphs enter the room. They look at you expectedly...

  22. New discoveries in old data by lildogie · · Score: 3, Interesting

    > While the SELEX experiment stopped taking data in 1997,
    > an extended analysis revealed this new particle lurking
    > within their data.

    Nice to see the costly technology paying off long after the experiment is over.

    Pure science is worth the money.

  23. Is there a Warp Drive here? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

    As a taxpayer, I like to know that research will have practical benefits.

    So, if the Fermilab folks could tell us whether this will lead to any or all of the following useful devices, I would greatly appreciate it:

    1) Warp Drive
    2) A way to make all the stars in the galaxy go supernova at once
    3) Bring back all the socks that vanish in the dryer
    4) Mr. Fusion
    5) Flying Cars