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Fahrenheit 9/11 Discussion
xerid writes "I saw Fahrenheit 9/11 last night, and the theatre was packed & sold out for each showing. Today, I read on Michael Moore.com about the movie breaking records. However, what I haven't seen was coverage on Slashdot, about the movie's opening day." I saw the film on friday and was really impressed. But while it speaks much truth, and has many funny parts as well as truly heartbreaking ones, I don't know how many votes it will sway. But since there is very little other news so far today, why not talk amongst yourselves!
down with the USA, stop the imperialist pigs!
I agree Bush is dishonest because he's a flaming idiot; Cheney is dishonest because he's a hardened criminal; and Rumsfeld is the real life Dr. Strangelove. Anyone who can, at this point in time, continue to support Bush for re-(s)election, is seriously in la-la-land.
A really good article about some of the things the Moore missed in Fahrenheit 9/11. Yes I know I'm AC, but seriously, check it out.
A movie that at it's best is political documentery!! WTF is it doing on slashdot!? Is it shot in 100% cgi? Did they using Linux boxen to make Michale More look less repulsive? Are they keeping cam corders out of theaters with night vision radar?
This is to F-ing much!
Why does someone try to convert me to their religion every where I go?!!
One Last Questions: Taco, when the h@ll are you going to applogize for this?!
This is worse than Matrix 3.
I would rather be ashes than dust!
And how is that bad if you believe you president is dishonest and a lier? Not that ever a president was like that, of course!
"I think this line is mostly filler"
Not a republican, for that matter not a democrat either. Not going to pay for MM's latest.
I have never seen anything that MM did that I liked. He is intellectually dishonest and he sells this drivel as truth, when he is in the entertainment business. It is kind of like op-ed in a newspaper. But op-ed has its own page, not to be confused with real journalism and news reporting.
Faith is the very antithesis of reason, injudiciousness a critical component of spiritual devotion. Jon Krakauer
This is a movie - and if you take it as gospel truth, you are an idiot.
You may as well take Spiderman for gospel and start watching the skyline for the vigilante himself!
Moore invents 'facts' and then develops 'evidence' to back himself up. He twists evidence and warps reality to suit his own screwed up vision.
This is a work of fiction, portrayed as a 'documentary' to give it a semblance of non-fiction.
This will take my karma from neutral to negative.
This Is Taco's site, so he gets to post whatever spins his prop.
To the "more experienced" sd crowd: humor the Cdr Taco, he is still young, still rebelling from his "tramatic" middle class childhood, and still recovering from having to perform manual labor. See http://cmdrtaco.net/ for his heart-wrenching story.
After the passage of years, the Taco may realize that agendized extremists differ only by the vehicle of their extremism (e.g., religious fundies, socialist unionists); and that all extremists want is to gain control and profit.
Now to address the Taco post. Moore is another blow-hard idiot that has mastered the Half-truth. Moore is the same class of vermin as Rush Limbaugh.
Kinda like everyone in the Bush Administraton, who get to spin their version of things on the news every night.
... on the "liberal" media. Something in Moore's favor is how allows the "liberal" media to show their true colors. They are not "liberal" - just overzealous rabid newshounds.
Yeah
Hes also admitted in the past (i think its on the FAQs somewhere here on slapdash) that hed like to become more political. maybe hes experimenting?
Anyway slightly more on topic.....MAKE DUBYA A ONE-TERMER!
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beware he who would deny you access to information, for in his mind he dreams himself your master
You are a complete idiot -- and just the kind of guy that Bush likes. You're too uneducated/stupid to understand that you will be paying interest for years on the debt that Bush is running up. You don't care about government corruption, the environment, state budgets, or even Americans losing their limbs and/or lives over fictitious weapons and fictitious links to terrorism.
Quite[sic] your left wing extreme ranting. You sound pathetic.
So anyone who opposes $500billion dollar deficits, unjust wars, corruption, and damage to the environment holds an extreme left wing view?
Face it: You can't argue the facts so you resort to content-free posts like the one I'm responding to.
flamebait and troll work too.
I'm willing to watch this propaganda piece -- I'm sure it contains some interesting points of view -- but I'm not willing to pay for the right to watch a political statement.
MAKE DUBYA A ONE-TERMER!
Multiply the one by two and I'll second it!
common sense: noun
What those who are ignorant of the subject matter think; usually wrong.
I sincerely hope that someone challenges Moore on the evidence he presents with clear, concise and truthful rebuttal. If not, we Americans should be outraged at how we have been manipulated, misled and lied to.
Well now I have less respect for Cannes than I do for the Oscars.There is NO true reward for GOOD film.
Sorry but Politics and Religion always seem to be unfit subjects for Art and Music(Bach doesnt count).
*Repent!Quit Your Job!Slack Off!The World Ends Tomorrow and You May Die!
hell, you could even add one and I'll second it!
Game Overdrive - Gaming News
The movie is breaking all-time theater records all over the United States.
The Passion? :-p
And incidentally, it's hardly a surprise than an anti-Bush, anti-war film would win high awayds in a French film festival. Or were you surprised?
I can't imagine why anyone would want to pay for the privilege of watching propaganda, much less drive hours to see it.
Flame me if you must, but as Michael Moore himself said, "(Americans) are possibly the dumbest people on the planet".
Me? I'm staying home and saving my money so I can send it to GWB's re-election campaign.
Need a Linux consultant in New Orleans?
Before you make a knee-jerk reaction and moderate - read the entire post and following the links. You will might learn something you didn't know before.
Michael Moore does not just disagree with Bush Administration policies, he hates America and Americans generally. He actually thinks America's enemies are the good guys and Americans are the bad guys (or at best, Americans are idiots). Michael Moore has gone so far as to say that the terrorists who are car-bombing civilians and cutting off civilians' heads in Iraq are the moral equivalent of America's Founding Fathers. (See David Brooks' June 26 column in the NY Times )
There is a difference between government disagreeing with policies and treasonous behavior (i.e. working for a foreign enemy, adhering to them, and trying to advance their war aims). As noted in Reason (a libertarian and generally anti-war magazine) some Americans are gloating over the deaths of American soldiers because it discredits Bush. That is disgusting. Gloating over the deaths of your own country's soldiers to win political points is outrageous. Michael Moore has actually written on his own web-site that he wants more Americans to die as punishment. He said "I'm sorry, but the majority of Americans supported this war once it began and, sadly, that majority must now sacrifice their children until enough blood has been let that maybe -- just maybe -- God and the Iraqi people will forgive us in the end.". It you think that is taken out of context , then read the whole message yourself and decide.
Moore goes beyond "loyal opposition" against failed polies. Disagreeing with Bush is *NOT* disloyal. Hoping that your own country's soldiers die, working to make your country loose a war by undermining morale, and overtly supporting its enemies *IS* disloyal and *IS* treason. Michael Moore is not a legitimate dissenting voice against the Bush Administration, he is a traitor against America.
I myself think that Bush & company have bungled the entire Iraq mess. But I'll never cross the line to hoping my own countrymen get butchered by our enemies.
Bad Panda! No Bamboo for you! In matters of importance ACs will not be responded to. Want to say something critical,OK
There is a well documented connection between Osama and Saddam. The 911 commission's report even verified that, read the report. What they did say, which is what the media twisted and ran with, is that there is no provable link between Saddam and the events of 911. The media came out with headlines, "No link between Al Quaida and Saddam." Of couse, most people only read the headline, not the article and assumed that there was no link at all.
Exactly. Mikey Moore is a first order twit. So is the president, for that matter. I want to see this movie about as much as I want my eyeballs poked with a hot iron rod. Someone needs to take this film, splice it together with "The Passion" and some cheesy 50s stag film. Then maybe overlay the audio with some death metal, punk rock, and 60s soap commericals. THEN, and only then, will I be interested in watching this mess.
I do not have a signature
This article uses one of the logical fallicies (read: the right's play book) of building up a straw man to tear it down. He does not summarise the movie well. You'll have to go see it your self to know what it says.
Some points he missed:
- Ashcroft told the FBI not to talk to him about terrorism anymore in the summer of 2001, despite significant intellegence.
- Bush sat on his ass for seven minutes after he had been told our nation was under attack.
- The U.S. is killing innocent civilians in Iraq.
- The U.S. is arresting people in Iraq in a martial law type fashon.
- The U.S. armed forces prefferentially recruit in low income neighborhoods, where the armed forces may be the only way for a kid to go to college.Really, the only other option to a life of poverty.
- George Bush is pushing for reductions and more reductions in veterans benifits.
Sorry, but I don't have all day.He claimed there were ties between Iraq and Al Qaeda, which we know there were. If you interpreted "ties" to mean "Iraq helped Al Qaeda plan 9-11", then you are just an idiot.
"have lied about the weapons of mass destruction (remember Colin Powell with all his pretty satellite photos?)"
You mean the weapons programs we have since found evidence of (even if they were pretty crappy)?
"and has falsely invaded two countries which had nothing to do with terrorism."
You mean Afghanistan and Iraq? It is virtually undisputed that the Taliban protected Al Qaeda. And if you think Iraq "had nothing to do with terrorism", then you clearly know nothing about foreign policy.
Note that having something to do with terrorism is not the same as collaborating with Bin Laden on 9/11.
Mathematics is made of 50 percent formulas, 50 percent proofs, and 50 percent imagination.
I've talked to folks about the move. Some of them didnt' give a shit. Some of them already knew what the movie would say, so they went and saw Shrek 2. Some of them saw Bowling for Columbine, and afterword learned about how slanted, distorted, and basically wrong it all was, felt betrayed and cheated, and swore to never pay attention to Michael Moore again (even though they are ardent Bush-haters and selfproclaimed Liberals...or "Progressives" since liberal is now a bad word).
/. is covering this, they damn well cover MMHA
I have one question. Slashdot is "News for Nerds, Stuff that Matters". Other than michael and his ad-hoc wing-nut anti-American activism, why are we even looking at this submission? If
the personal attacks Mr Hitchens levels against Moore only serve to strengthen Michaels statements. Nothing in this rant does anything to dispell the facts stated in F911.
He only implies that Moore is biased. Of course he is, we all are. It is refreshing, however, to finally see someone biased on the side of peace, accountability, and honesty get to voice his views.
More power to Michael, I see another Oscar in his future.
The bin Ladens flew out of the country after the air restrictions were lifted, not before.
There's your one lie, are you happy?
Ironically, the word ironically is often used incorrectly.
While there's a plurality of Americans on the jury, the fact that they're on the jury of the French film festival gives pretty good odds they're Francophiles, and are far from the Americans who are off eating "freedom toast" for breakfast and switching to Californian wine.
-21 members of the Bin Laden family were flown out of the country on special chartered flights on September 13 while all other flights were grounded. They were NEVER questioned on Osama at all and there is no clear reason why they were given free flight out without interrogation.
Parts of this is NOT true. Yes, they flew out on 9/13 but not ALL flights were grounded. They WERE questioned and the permission to leave was granted by RICHARD CLARK. Yes, THAT Richard Clark. When asked about this in the 9/11 hearing he said "I would do it again". Just think about it for a sec. If most of the planes were grounded, why would be the first to flay? Rich people on private planes. Richard Clark told the 9/11 commission those people were questioned and he gave the order to let them go.
-Prior to the war in Afghanistan, there were plans on the board to put in a gas pipeline through the country. Members of the Taliban visited Texas regarding the issue. The project was abandoned after the US bombed Afghanistan in 1999. After the recent war, Hamid Karzai was made the leader. The papers were signed giving the green light for the pipline. Prior to being the leader, Karzai was a consultant for one of the companies trying to build the pipeline.
And ALL of the plans and visits were make during the CLINTON ADMINISTRATION!
-Prior to 9/11, Bush had been on vacation over 40 percent of his time in office. During one of those vacations, he was given a security brief that outlined Osama bin Laden training his agents to fly planes in the US as tools of terror. Condi Rice talked about that memo in some of the investigations. Nothing was done about it.
No president, Republican or democratic, "goes on vacation" and every rational person knows this. The office travels with him everywhere. I'm sure the President has been told in memos several thousand possible ways of attack. That is why he has people that work for him such as the NSA/CIA/FBI and such. This was a HUGE INTELLIGENCE failure, not the President's. And yes, if this happened during clinton's administration I would be saying the same thing. No president could have prevented those attacks.
-Pre 9/11, many Bush administration officials are ON THE RECORD as saying that Saddam Hussein didn't have any weapons of mass destruction nor was he capable and wasn't a threat. AFTER 9/11, their tune was exactly opposite. Why?
I need to see those examples, but ON THE RECORD bill clinton, hillary clinton, al gore, john kerry, and dozens of other democrats saying there were WMDs as late as last year. As a matter of fact, clinton bombed the aspirin factory BECAUSE of the ties between saddam and a-q.
-Condi Rice is on camera saying "There is a definite connection between Iraq and 9/11." We now know that isn't true.
WRONG WRONG WRONG.
NO PERSON IN THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION SAID THERE WAS A CONNECTION BETWEEN IRAQ AND 9/11. NEVER. NOT ONCE have I heard President Bush and Vice President Cheney state "iraq had nothing to do with 9/11" REPEATEDLY.
However, and the 9/11 commission FOUND THIS TO BE TRUE "There WAS a connection between a-q and iraq that stretched back into the 90's"
I just disputed ALL of your points (with the exception about "many Bush administration officials are ON THE RECORD as saying that Saddam Hussein didn't have any weapons of mass destruction" because I haven't seen that.
But I have seen tens of thousands of dead Kurds who died by poisonous gas. I saw hundreds of thousands of dead iranians die by poisonous gas. I guess that qualifies as WMD.
Of course, germany, soviet union (now Russis), france, England, the u.n., Israel, and even hans blix tell us that iraq has WMDs.
Huh? That's your support? That's weak, near nonexistant. Maybe you should throw up the definition of "farming break" in Florida.
Because right now, it doesn't seem like they are breaking any laws.
I see nothing wrong with land developed as a nursury or trees are grown to have a tax break. Worse, if this is proof, if they didn't have the tax break, they'd sell off the land, which would likely go directly to land developers in the area, which would utterly fall upon it like a pack of wolves on a lamb, stripping it apart for housing development.
The fact that some of the property will be developed--uhh, farmers typically can and do sell off partial lots of land. This is why when you drive through states, you see lone homes or a group of 3 to 5 otherwise surrounded by fields.
Better proof please. If this is the best you can do, you're argument is against tax breaks for corporations in general, which thereby is no longer an argument exclusive to Disney.
But in reality, at least one of the congressmen who appears in the film actually said sometime along the lines of "I'd be happy to. Especially for those who voted for the war." But that part was CUT OUT,
LIAAR!!!! This is a lie, to be modded down as "-1 LIEEEE!". The "basis" for this lie is that Rep. Mark Kennedy told Moore that he had two NEPHEWS in the military (one deployed in the National Guard) and Kennedy complained that this (irrelevant) fact didn't appear in the film.
If you're quoting someone in written form and you use "..." to shorten what they say, you had better make DAMN sure that when you remove doesn't change the meaning of the quote.
Since you put quotes around your "I'd be happy to" lie, I suggest you follow your own advice!
Yes it must be understood that the Bush Administration has not kept everything above board as they should have. It must also be understood that Teddy Kennedy is a slim and trim upright, 100% patriotic, 100% pro-democracy American that has absolutely no ties to organized crime what so ever. Yeah right.
Michael Moore's film is a laughable and blatant attempt to discredit the current administration and push the Democrats Socialist agenda. He calls it a Documentary. Like the rest of his work, that is a statement based on falehoods and twisting of words.
He has a very clever film editor. If you notice in the movie, all the clips are Bush bashing, soldier bashing and America bashing. This man is so full of hate it is near terrifying. Anyway, I am tired of typing about a traitorous idiot, so I will leave you with a true fact. The definition of Documentary.
From The New Webster's Dictionary
Document 1.n. An official paper that gives information or supplies evidence
2. To support or supply with documents Documentary
3. set down in writing
Documentaries n 4. a documentary film
So he has supposedly created an official film to provide information and evidence. IE It should be based on truth from BOTH sides and present ALL the facts to be considered a documentary. What Moore has created is a patently political, incredibly biased, piece of garbage, propaganda film. Nuff said.
Your actions in life will determine your children's future.
Funny you should mention 'Silent Spring' - it's a perfect example of how downright stupid documentaries can be. As a result of the ban on DDT, millions of people around the world have died from diseases carried by insects like mosquitos. DDT is an effective pesticide, and when used properly will save the lives of people in impoverished countries who have no defense against killers like malaria. Unfortunately, a bunch of people saw the film 'Silent Spring' and decided that we should ban DDT outright - and so now farmers in countries like uganda who would love to buy the stuff to protect their houses can't because no company is willing to produce it. DDT was used excessively prior to Silent Spring, but the solution was to reduce usage to reasonable levels, as opposed to banning it outright.
The "Silent Spring-DDT" story is a classic case of White Liberals, in an attempt to make the world a better place, screwing a bunch of other people. What does this have to do with Micheal Moore's latest flick? I'm sure the theaters will be full of White Liberals just itching to make the world a better place by ridding America of the eeevil George W. Bush.
My blog
People in America live in little "bubbles." If they only got a job at an intelligence agency, there bubble would be burst and they would realize that the U.S. should take proactive and decisive action against any country posing a threat to the U.S. I really hate when slashdot moderators voice their political opinions on the frontpage of slashdot. This type of article should not be posted to slashdot.
"The fact is, getting rid of Bush is important to the safety and future of the entire world."
The fact is, having Bush in office the last four years has been important to the safety and future of the entire wrold. Who else was going to stand up against Al Qaeda, the Taliban and Saddam Hussein? Canada? Riiiight. Al Gore? Clinton/Gore had their chance for eight years and only made things worse. France? Russia? They were too busy making a profit in Iraq.
The only reason there is any civilization in the world is because of the United States. Without your evil, misguided neighbors to the south, communism and naziism would have consumed the world and human rights with it. Actual leaders, like Franklin Roosevelt, Reagan, Bush and Bush have cleaned up others' messes (usually inherited from Democrats except in the case of FDR).
Look what Bush inherited from Clinton: a sliding economy, a nuclear Korea and Iran, shady corporate accounting, a diminished military and CIA, and terrorism. Look at what Reagan inherited from Carter: double digit inflation, double digit unemployment, double digit interest rates, a neutered military and hostages in Iran. Look at what Nixon inherited from Johnson: a botched Vietnam War. Reagan and Bush at least tackled these problems and turned things around. Do you see a pattern here?
No need to apologize or thank us. I know you just weren't using your brain.
Your fucking idiotic post is the stupidest thing, on several different levels, that I've had the displeasure of reading all week.
I was going to go into why, but I don't have the energy right now.
Just rest assured that you're a freaking moron.
And lick my nuts.
Moore is a fat assed, cock sucking, commie lib. He is a poster child for Democratic Party, & were I an uninformed Demoncrap, I'd be ashamed. If you hate America so much, join Al-Quaida you bunch of whining technoweenies.
The parent post lies.
Open Source Sushi
Of course, I did that on purpose, because I've found it's no less effective that pointing out real facts, i.e., if you agree with Moore, nothing I could say would change your mind.
You are in a maze of twisty little passages, all alike.
Four things.
1. Weapons of Mass Destruction have been found, including a new batch last week.
2. The items we are searching for do not in and of themselves weigh hundreds of tons. Individually they range from about the size of a mans leg below the knee and a weight of something like 30-60 lbs to the size of a man and a weight of up to a couple of thousand pounds. A meaningful chemical arsenal could be hidden in 5 semi-tractor trailors.
3. Just searching the known Iraqi ammo dumps is a huge problem as David Kay notes.
Apparently the Washinton Times notes the problem is even bigger
It should also be noted that the Iraqis systematicly hid their weapons programs as David Kay notes. In addition, the Iraqis used many other places outside of normal locations to stash ammunition such as hospitals and schools. No doubt there are at least some secret bunkers. Don't forget that Saddam's regime was capable of the most ruthless of actions. I wouldn't be surprised to find that they had a group who hid a stash of banned weapons, killed everyone who did the hiding, and killing the killers of those who hid the weapons. Good luck finding them.
4. If you remember the conduct of the Gulf War in 90-91 you will remember that the US then also had a considerable amount of technology aimed at locating the Iraqi Scud missiles, and it found very few of them, much to its embarassment. In that case the Iraqis were doing them the favor of regularly moving them from hidden positions to fire, and yet it was still very difficult to find them. In the present case, it is only the warheads and shells that really have to be hidden, and they aren't moving.
Now it is time to consider your own question, "Is there ever going to be a point where you are going to change your mind on this?"
I'm glad you had a class in Michael Moore. All good neocons should.
Unfortunately, you are missing several points which are obvious to the rest of us who don't disguise a twisted perspective in a cloud of pseudo-impartiality.
1. You're assuming your reaction to Moore's filmmaking is the intent Moore had behind it and the same reaction anyone else watching his films would have. This is a basic, fundamental mistake, and in many ways is a cornerstone of fascism. You defend your right make everyone else see things the way you want them to see them.
2. Michael Moore, as others are stating in this forum, is giving you opinions. Michael Moore is not making 'documentaries', and 'documentary' is after all only a word, and only someone grievously emotionally disenfranchised would get hung up on the semantics of the word and forget the meaning behind it. Moore is giving you his opinions: the way -he- sees things, and he's good at communicating as well, which is why people like his films.
And if Michael Moore thinks there is a connection between two events spaced seven years apart, then so be it: that is his opinion. You don't have to subscribe to it, but to accuse him of 'manipulating' when you have no proof whatsoever is almost tantamount to wearing your neocon badge on your lapel.
I understand where you're coming from, though. I mean, with Bush Jr. as the current Prez, anyone else looks like a cross between Einstein and Gandhi.
The detailed critiques of "Bowling" that I've seen make it very clear that this so-called "documetary" was anything but in many ways. Moore is an expert at taking things out of context and manipulating the facts so that they appear much worse than they really are. He is driven by ideology and fits the facts into his predrawn conclusions. The only thing he truthfully documents is his own notions of how things should be. Is it Free Speech? Sure, and it should be, but I don't give it any more weight than my own silly rants above.
/. before, I don't like Sean Hannity even though I almost always agree with him. As it is with all things, the voices that are the loudest are usually the ones you shouldn't be listening to. And I think Michael Moore fits that perfectly, and I get a little steamed about him because he's so contemptuous and ego-inflated himself.
p.s. I don't run my life that way, and I try to be informed too. I _don't_ listen to the likes of Rush Limbaugh or Michael Savage for the exact reasons you state. As I've stated on
You are in a maze of twisty little passages, all alike.
real Left was destroyed by jinogist mccarthyism
thank God for McCarthyism, then
but you underestimate our libertarian desires. there will be no fascism because we would overthrow it. there will be no agressor role in WWIII because, unlike Old World nutballs, we have no desire for conquest. you think any significant number of Americans actually wanted to go into Afghanistan or Iraq??? you're full of shit. we went in there because we had to, and because the rest of the world is too damn "Left" to see anything wrong with 1) America being attacked or 2) supporting terrorists (unless it's the USA) 3) brutal dictators
the Old World seems to like brutal dictators
if there's a WWIII, it will be because some Old World tyrant wants to support a fellow murdering dictator in some terrorist supporting country against the United States
People in just about ANY country can be pretty nice, so long as neither one of you is a prejudiced asshole.
I guess that's why Americans don't get along with anyone.
"I have never let my schooling interfere with my education." - Mark Twain
I certainly don't appreciate being called "Stupid" by a pinko leftist socialist dimwit. I am an American . I do believe in God. I did vote for Bush. I support Bush 100% I support the war on terror. I support kicking Sadam's ass. I do so because I believe it was the RIGHT thing to do not because I blindly follow anyone. Especially a fat-ass commie malcontent like Moore! Tell you what I will do , if YOU want to life in a socialist country I will buy you a first class ticket as long as you sign away your citizenship and vow never to return. PS: see what Ray Brabury say's about Moore ripping him off.