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World's First Large-Scale Ogg Theora Stream

Posted by timothy on from the moving-images dept.

Ur@eus writes "The GNOME European Users and Developers conference is currently underway in Kristansand, Norway. The whole conference is available live online as an Ogg Theora stream (the videos of the talks are also archived). This is very exciting as it is a proof of concept that it is possible to do high quality streaming using a fully free format today. The stream is done using the Fluendo streaming server software which will be released under the GPL in a few months. You find information on how to view the streams at the GUADEC streaming website."

37 of 137 comments (clear)

  1. Huh? by Bingo+Foo · · Score: 3, Interesting

    What concept needed to be proved? Does the freeness of a codec affect its scalability?

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    taken! (by Davidleeroth) Thanks Bingo Foo!
    1. Re:Huh? by BFaucet · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I believe the significance of this is that now there's a large stream available on the web... that you can point people to. Saying to someone that a ogg streams rock is very different than showing them.

      Hopefully radio stations and Public Radio shows will adopt Ogg. At the moment, most if not all use Real *shudder*.

      --
      -Derick
    2. Re:Huh? by Mr.+Bad+Example · · Score: 4, Funny

      > What concept needed to be proved?

      That thousands of people saying "Ogg Theora" all at once sounds like a cat the size of Montana hacking up a hairball.

    3. Re:Huh? by Psymunn · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Forgive me for beign naive, but if i went up to the magority of people i know and said 'hey man, there's this kick ass confrence streaming on the internet, and guess what: it's OGG' i'd receive a whoel lot of WTF.
      Don't get me wrong, i support ogg because it's 'free as in awesome', and i hate realplayer because it's 'annoying as in YAPI' (yet another plug in) but i think another format is just going to confuse new users.
      What's more, joe user isn't truly going to embrace something like ogg until bob porn producer does.

      --
      The Neo-Bohemian Techno-Socialist
    4. Re:Huh? by aldoman · · Score: 2, Insightful

      But Real does seem to be making some effort with the Helix community.

      We could soon see Ogg being installed (as both a directshow filter and in RealPlayer itself) on a large amount of computers. I also know that most games now use ogg for sound effects, but I'm not so sure if they install it as a directshow filter (this allows other apps to use it). If they do, then we may already have 25% of the home computer market using ogg.

      BTW: this method of stealth installation is going to be how OS software takes hold, imo.

      --
      IntechHosting - Free domain, 2GB, PHP, £4.95/$8.95
  2. I'm willing to help test this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

    ...as long as the person in the streaming video is cute, female, and scantily clad.

    1. Re:I'm willing to help test this by Vaevictis666 · · Score: 5, Funny
      I'm willing to help test this...as long as the person in the streaming video is cute, female, and scantily clad.

      The usual would be three options, pick two. But since this is the internet, you'll probably have to settle for just one of the three... Sorry.

    2. Re:I'm willing to help test this by NanoGator · · Score: 2, Funny

      "...as long as the person in the streaming video is cute, female, and scantily clad."

      Well I suppose I could fire up a stream of Tiny Toon Adventures. `

      --
      "Derp de derp."
  3. High Quality Streaming by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    Yeah, it's about time. This high quality streaming is going to revolutionize ...BUFFERING...

    1. Re:High Quality Streaming by sik0fewl · · Score: 3, Funny

      That's only funny in stories about Real Pl ...BUFFERING...

      --
      I remember when legal used to mean lawful, now it means some kind of loophole. - Leo Kessler
  4. Real Problems by artlu · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Sadly, most of the streaming video is still reliant on Real from my experience. However, most places now have quicktime/mpeg alternatives. Does anyone know if Apple's new codec which will be released with Panther is planning on being Open Source? It is supposedly going to be able to be used for video streams.

    GroupShares Inc. - A free and Interactive Stock Trading Community

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    artlu.net
    1. Re:Real Problems by Wesley+Felter · · Score: 4, Informative

      Apple releasing an open source codec? Are you kidding? Various people are working on open source H.264 implementations, though. (Just like MP3 and MPEG-4, it's only open source in countried that don't recognize the zillions of patents that cover it.)

  5. bork by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    This is very exciting...

    Nope, sorry. Just because something is done with an open source whatever, does not automatically make the event exciting, significant, groundbreaking, or anything else out of the ordinary.

    1. Re:bork by sixide · · Score: 2, Informative

      Especially given that Theora is essentially the same as VP3, which is already in use for streaming video stations.

    2. Re:bork by Oktal1984 · · Score: 2, Funny

      Yes it does.

  6. See that headline? by Chuck+Chunder · · Score: 2, Insightful
    The one that says:
    World's First Large-Scale Ogg Theora Stream
    The concept that is being proved is the "Ogg Theora as a large scale streaming technology" one.
    --
    Boffoonery - downloadable Comedy Benefit for Bletchley Park
  7. Define Large-scale by konfoo · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Don't say it, show it. What statistics if any are available for this event?

  8. username and password by Bob+Loblaw · · Score: 3, Funny

    I particularly like them giving away the username and password of the presentation computer at the end of this archived ogg stream:

    http://stream1.hia.no/ogg/dump/room1/ogg-theora- vo rbis-high.2004-06-27-18:47:39.ogg

    It proves the high fidelity that ogg has to offer :]

  9. Good! My representative couldn't make it there by KjetilK · · Score: 4, Interesting
    That's really interesting to see. I'm in Norway, and I've been writing my representatives in the Norwegian parliament "Stortinget" to get them too attend this conference. It is not only about GNOME, mind you, tomorrow, there are a bunch of politicians there, from the starting keynote, then about software patents, EU policies, and finally a big keynote by Dr Edgar Villanueva, our friend from Peru.

    Unfortunately, the guy who was closest to getting there was stuck at his office, in spite of Kristiansand being his hometown.

    That's too bad, but now I can actually try to have them look at the stream instead, and even failing that, there's the archive.

    --
    Employee of Inrupt, Project Release Manager and Community Manager for Solid
  10. Anticlimax by sploo22 · · Score: 3, Funny

    It would be a lot more impressive if the stream hadn't GROUND to a SCREECHING HALT within 5 minutes of being posted...

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    Karma: Segmentation fault (tried to dereference a null post)
    1. Re:Anticlimax by evilviper · · Score: 2, Insightful
      It would be a lot more impressive if the stream hadn't GROUND to a SCREECHING HALT within 5 minutes of being posted...

      If you are using a /.ing to prove that a certain technology is not up-to-snuff, then you must also agree that the internet as a whole is a failed technology.

      Nothing can survive having more users than bandwidth.
      --
      Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
  11. How to play Theora in Windows RealPlayer by AlexJeff · · Score: 4, Informative

    Here are the instruction on how to play Theora in your Windows RealPlayer:

    http://stream1.hia.no/instructions/theoraandreal wi ndows.html

    Here is the best link to the free RealPlayer for Windows:
    http://www.real.com/freeplayer/?rppr=hc. org

  12. Excellent by nizo · · Score: 5, Funny
    This is very exciting as it is a proof of concept that it is possible to do high quality streaming using a fully free format today.

    All three people who have software to decode this format and 10 megabit connections are very excited!

    --
    I Am My Own Worst Enemy
    1. Re:Excellent by Nodatadj · · Score: 3, Informative

      It was working for us (the gnome people who aren't at guadec) all day yesterday and this morning, so I would say that yes, these problems are due to the /.ing

    2. Re:Excellent by bazongis · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Maybe this has to do with the fact that conference rooms in the middle of the night with their lights switched off are not exactly an exciting scene to stream live?

      In other words: the streaming servers are probably switched off. Try again tomorrow morning (Norwegian time).

      I've watched some of the live streams yesterday and today, and overall it was quite impressive (the only comparison I have are realplayer streams of recorded TV newscasts at roughly the same bitrate, which always freeze to refill the buffer at some point).

    3. Re:Excellent by Short+Circuit · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Why didn't they multicast? Wouldn't that have solved the bandwidth issues?

      --
      tasks(723) drafts(105) languages(484) examples(29106)
  13. Re:doesn't helix do the same? by radish · · Score: 2, Informative

    Helix is a player not a codec.

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    ---- Den ene knappen er powerknapp, den andre er Bender voice knapp "Bite My Shiny Metal Ass"

  14. The city name is... by easter1916 · · Score: 4, Informative
    Kristiansand, not Kristansand. Never heard the Tricky song?
    I met a Christian in Kristiansand
    And a devil in Helsinki.
    1. Re:The city name is... by Nodatadj · · Score: 2, Informative

      I did too
      But I believe in the tricky song
      It is spelled Christiansands
      At least the title is.

  15. Re:Apparently so... by tarquin_fim_bim · · Score: 2, Funny

    I couldn't get it to work

    Obviously the technology is flawed, I suggest we go back to clay tablets to facilitate the empowerment of the inept.

  16. Wikipedia! by Grendel+Drago · · Score: 2, Interesting

    There was some discussion about video policy for Wikipedia. The conclusion was that they were waiting on a workable streaming free and open codec... so this should be pretty big news for them.

    Now to find video illustrations for the articles on the sixty-nine and the reverse cowgirl...

    --grendel drago

    --
    Laws do not persuade just because they threaten. --Seneca
  17. Windows users: try VideoLAN by D.+Book · · Score: 2, Informative

    Oddly, the GUADEC streaming site suggests Windows users install the universally loathed RealPlayer and a patch for it, when the free, open-source VideoLAN Client specialises in streaming and includes native support for Ogg Theora. While the live streams don't seem to be working in my case (not sure if this is the fault of the client or server), the Theora streams on the archive page work fine.

    1. Re:Windows users: try VideoLAN by thomasvs · · Score: 2, Informative
      I had tried VLC myself as the first player on Win32 while working on the server. I've asked for information on what could be wrong, because except for not starting on a keyframe in the stream the streams are perfectly fine. Even not starting on a keyframe is something a player should be able to handle.

      Unfortunately time was limited and we cannot test every player when we're getting ready for our first public test. I'm sure that after this conference we can work together with the VLC people to make the streams work.

      Having said that, not putting VLC on the page was an oversight on the part of the person that put up the webpage, and we added it.

  18. Try helping people instead of justifying rejection by jbn-o · · Score: 2, Insightful

    [...] if i went up to the magority of people i know and said 'hey man, there's this kick ass confrence streaming on the internet, and guess what: it's OGG' i'd receive a whoel lot of WTF.

    The same could be said of when RealVideo was new or when MP3 began. Novelty is no reason to reject something but being proprietary is. Conversely, as you indicated, being free is a great reason to support this work. My experience is that if you're willing to spend a few seconds explaining the problem with proprietary software you will be taken seriously. But if you signal that the issue of software freedom doesn't matter, you're telling people that they can safely dismiss it too.

    --
    Digital Citizen
  19. Playing Theora files in windows by hsoom · · Score: 3, Informative
    I can't get the stream to work so I just tried playing the first file in the archive and it worked.

    I can get the theora files to play under the latest version of VideoLAN client.

    There are instructions for setting up Real Player to view Theora files. Although some people are saying that the latest version of Real Player is not so bad I still don't want to install it. I must have a grudge :-) and Real Alternative using Media Player Classic (MPC) works fine.

    Is there anyway to get Theora files to play with MPC? I thought that if I installed the Directshow Filters it may work but no such luck. This would be really handy because I use MPC for just about everything else.

  20. I wrote that discussion paper... by Goonie · · Score: 3, Interesting
    Streaming is not that big an issue for Wikipedia. As you'll note from the page, the majority of which seems to have been widely accepted, generally Wikipedia video clips should be short and available in low-resolution versions, so they can just be downloaded in their entirety rather than streamed. The more important issue for Wikipedia was that the bitstream was frozen a little while ago, so anything encoded with the present encoder will be readable into the future.

    Quite frankly, however, nobody has actually sought to place video on the Wikipedia yet. I hope it will happen soon, but right now there's been a fair bit of talk but no action from any contributors.

    As to your suggested topics, see the last section on legalitiesin the discussion paper. There's a whole pile of extra paperwork you need to keep track of to legally post videos of the kind you wish to post...

    --

    Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a rigged demo
    --Andy Finkel (J. Klass?)
  21. People get their terms a bit mixed up by Sycraft-fu · · Score: 2, Interesting

    This might be because marketers aren't particularly interested in straightening it out. There are open STANDARDS and open SOURCE. Not the same thing.

    Open source just means the source is available for public consumption, but these days it also implies under some kind of license such as GPL or BSD that would permit modification and redistribution. There are apps with source that aren't like that. Some compilers, for exmaple, include the source to all libraries, but don't permit you to redistribute that source.

    Open standards are standards for anything, like video formats (MPEG-2/4, H.264, VC-9), communication busses (IEEE-1394/Firewire, USB) and so on. They are considered open because they are available to ANYONE that gets a license, no discrimination permitted, and under single terms. They are standards because they are controlled by a standards body, not by a company. So updates can only be made through the standards body, and then are available to everyone.

    Both are ways where no one gets locked out from changes, and a company can't choose to play favourites with someone. The critical difference is open standards need not be free, and many aren't. An open standard can have a licensing fee, it just needs to be one that is reasonable and non-discriminitory. So long as it's not too expensive and anyone can obtain the same license, it qualifies.

    The problem is that the OSS community is quite good at ignoring licensing fees on open standards. They happily implement software that deals with MPEG-4, MP3, and so on and never pay any licensing (perhaps never realising it is licensed). Now this is generally allowed to happen since it not for profit, and source only distributions are often exempted as academic works.

    That doesn not mean that licenses aren't legally needed, or that they won't come for them in the event of commercial works. Anyone distributing MPEG-4 content in a large or commercial setting had better pay the use fee (you have to pay per hour of content or per disc for MPEG-4) or they'll probably be after you.

    The OGG stuff that Xiph makes is free and open source, not an open standard, so it is free of charge to use. That's the reason for excitement.

    When you get right down to it, Vorbis isn't really better than licensed formats like AAC or WMA. You can make tests Vorbis wins, you can make tests the others win. Ultimately, all new standards are pretty good, and are good at different things. The reason that Vorbis is cool is that there are NO fees to use it. Just implement it and distribute it and don't worry.

    That's why it's becomming popular with games. If they wanted MP3 music, well that was something they had to pay for, since they were implementing a decoder. Some with the newer licensed standards. Vorbis, on the other hand, is free and sounds roughly the same. Great, keeps costs down and consumers don't notice any difference.