Auto Manufacturers Running Out Of Unique IDs

wakebrdr writes "Y2K all over again? A story in today's Detroit News explains how the vehicle ID numbering system (VIN) will soon run out of unique numbers. According to the article, a member of the Society of Automotive Engineers says, 'Longer codes would require a major overhaul of computer systems that would dwarf the challenges and expenses spawned by the Y2K computer dilemma.' Golly, if it's that serious maybe I should start stocking up on MREs and ammunition in preparation for the day the assembly lines come to a screeching halt."

Comments

Extend the character set?

[SIGALRM]

The 17-digit codes that identify the origin, make, model and attributes of cars, trucks, buses -- even trailers -- worldwide will be exhausted by the end of the decade.

How about extending the allowable characters in a VIN to include certain ASCII or Unicode symbols? Perhaps make them case-sensitive? That would preserve uniqueness--at least for awhile longer--although it might make the codes harder to verbalize (i.e. to an insurance agent).

Re:Extend the character set?

[LaCosaNostradamus]

You must be talking about an escape sequence, which will allow a much larger space of definition, although those definitions will be more fluidly defined due to the very nature of extension.

For instance, a bit can be taken from the existing set, which if 1, indicates "an extended code follows". Then you can add as much as you want, since it's just a freakin' data stream.

Realistically, anything that causes a car company to alter its design, specifically to redesign to accomodate a change in standards, is something they'll complain about. However, if they can leverage the change into something "featuriffic" for the customer -- like being able to design your own watchpoints in the car's codespace and other stuff like that -- then they can merrily design it up and just as merrily make it into a good-paying option.

Re:Extend the character set?

[tomhudson]

Even 10-year-old VINs are sometimes hard to read - (hello, Toyota Tercel, GM and Ford pickups...)

'Longer codes would require a major overhaul of computer systems that would dwarf the challenges and expenses spawned by the Y2K computer dilemma.'

No it wouldn't. We've been through this before, in the '70s - when each manufacturer made their VIN any way they wanted to - and most were 13 digits, some less.

Computer systems today still handle VINs of less than 17 digits with no problems, provided they've been designed correctly.

So just expand the VIN field by adding a second field of, say, 6 more digits. Vehicles with a VIN of 17 digits or less don't have anything in the second field, those with more than 17 digits do.

The overflow field doesn't even have to be in the same table - just a lookup to see if there's an entry there for the VIN.

Or make the first character of the VIN an arbitrary value - say 'O' (the letter 'o', not the number zero, which means "Made in USA", 2="Made in Canada", 3="Made in Mexico", J="Made in Japan, K="Made in Korea", etc... The letters 'I, O, and Q' are forbidden in the current VIN scheme, as they are too easy to confuse with zero and one. Tell the software that anything beginning with an 'O' should be searched for using the new, longer VIN.

Heck, you could even use a zero, since nobody uses it as the country origin code.

As I said, it's not that big a deal, as we've been there before.

Re:Extend the character set?

[DAldredge]

I did read the article, you did not. If you have you would have learned to following.

Of 1,056 WMI codes available to U.S. manufacturers, 594 remain, according to SAE.

One solution that will be considered when the committee votes on a final recommendation in September or October is to reclaim WMI codes that are going unused in other regions.

More than two dozen countries, from Armenia to Zimbabwe, have up to 288 WMI codes each. All are dormant.

The group may also reclaim WMI codes from U.S. trailer, motorcycle and other manufacturers no longer in business. SAE doesn't have a precise count, but such defunct companies could be the source of enough WMI codes to supplement another 30 years of use, said Steve Ezar, manager of government and industry standardization at SAE.

Another possible solution: the WMI code could be revamped so that the third digit, which now indicates brand, will be freed up to denote different information.

For example, a VIN beginning with 5G1 now describes a Chevrolet built in the United States, while 5G2 identifies a Pontiac.

But in the future, 5G1 could be used to cover all GM products, freeing 5G2 for -- perhaps -- another manufacturer.

Re:Extend the character set?

[StarOwl]

The check digit is position nine.

Of course, one way to expand the VIN number set would be to alter the check-digit algorithm to create a second, parallel numbering space.

For example, if model year 2005, use the old algorithm and increment by one position for the new checksum, and recycle the SAE codeset.

Wash, rinse, and repeat to expand VIN space 30-ishfold.

Yes, it'd break systems that have the check-digit algorithm hardcoded, but VIN verification systems have to be updated regularly anyway to deal with new SAE codes, the recycling of the year digit, etc.

Or, we could just have Wal-Mart tell the auto industry to start relying on RFID tags and their numberset to uniquely identify vehicles, and eliminate the problem until we run out of RFID identifiers. :)

Good

[Anonymous Coward]

Why does the government feel that it needs to know the "ID" of my vehicle? What business is it of theirs? This is no different than other government-mandated identity programs such as Social Security numbers. Not to get tin-foil-hatty, but if you've read books like 1984 or studied leaders like Hitler, you will know that programs like this (even if they start with the best of intentions) end up going way down the slippery slope, usually with disastrous results.

Slashdotters were (rightfully) up in arms a few years back when Intel planned on embedding unique IDs into their Pentium III chips. Yet we blindly accept VINs and other intrusions into our privacy without question. Why?

Re:Good

[no reason to be here]

Why does the government feel that it needs to know the "ID" of my vehicle? What business is it of theirs?
Because they have an interest in making sure that that vehicle is safe to drive (safety inspections). Also, it makes it a little more likely that your car could be recovered if it were ever stolen. Also, I believe (not certain) that VINs are global, voluntarily created by automotive manufacturers; therfore, they wouldn't be just a US thing. Furthermore, the gov't provides all the roads on which you would be driving. The gov't identifies your car by its license plate. You give your VIN when you register your car so that there is something else to match it against other than the plates if it is stolen, in an accident, etc.

This is no different than other government-mandated identity programs such as Social Security numbers.
Yes it is. One has to have an SSN in the US, no matter what. One doesn't have to own a car (well, in some instances one DOES have to own a car, but people in a large enough metropolitan area don't have to).

Not to get tin-foil-hatty,
too late

but if you've read books like 1984 or studied leaders like Hitler, you will know that programs like this (even if they start with the best of intentions) end up going way down the slippery slope, usually with disastrous results.
A VIN isn't going to lead the SS to your door step. No one knows the VIN on a particular automobile unless they are standing right next to it and looking right at where it is printed. Now if you smash your car into a bus load of orphans, and you flee the scene on foot, then maybe the cops could check the VIN to see to whom the car is registered, and then come arrest you later. Of course, they could just as easily check the license plate.

Slashdotters were (rightfully) up in arms a few years back when Intel planned on embedding unique IDs into their Pentium III chips. Yet we blindly accept VINs and other intrusions into our privacy without question. Why?
Maybe, just maybe, /.ers see VINs as just a serial number on a car, not some sort of gov't tracking system devised by the Illuminati. I think most /.ers don't like SSNs (to use your other example), but they are way, WAY too entrenched to just rebel against. Pick your battles, as they say.

VIN numbers as SSNs?

[Michael Pigott]

Maybe one could use VIN numbers as SSNs: when a car "dies" recycle it's VIN number.

all too common issue

[XMichael]

This is a fairly common issue in other industries as well... In the food packaging industry they use what is called a DSS number; in addition to the generic serial number we've all known to grown and hate. This DSS number is sort of an industry number which allows the manufactures to more accurately tracking where the product what packed / shipped to, etc. The system is at it's witts ends, as these DSS numbers are appended depending on the number of destinations... Turns out when they designed the system food was only being shipped to many 3 or 4 places at the most --- now it's common for food to be shipped to upwards of a dozen places BEFORE it is even shipped to the grocery store.

all in all, same story, boo hoo, it'll cost them a bunch of money to upgrade

CCTV Systems

I'm not sure...

[jbardell]

I'm not sure if the issue is that the VIN's can't get any longer than they already are, but I know that the VIN on an older vehicle (ie. the '60 Chevy pickup I had) is a few characters shorter than a VIN of today. I would think that lengths in between these two would be useable without any major overhaul, but what do I know?

Re:CRY!

[OverlordQ]

no:
2004-07-17 Sat - GPS Receiver Almanac Rollover, 256 weeks after GPS 1024-week rollover.
2004-12-31 Fri - 2004/366 - cf. 1996-366.
2005-??-?? ??? - "Some *really* old versions of UNIX (e.g. 16-bit BSD) die in 2005.".
2005-11-29 Tue - 04:53:20 UTC : 212 Gs from JD 0.0.
2006-03-29 Wed - Solar Eclipse, Brazil - Africa - Turkey - Asia.
2006-12-31 Sun - HP3000, End Of Life.
2007-01-01 Mon - Lithuania joins the Euro?
2007-01-01 Mon - "USA FAA computers fail, 32 years from 1975". TZ? 2006?
2007-08-09 Thu - CMJD 54321.
2008-01-19 Sat - 30 years before 2038-01-19 - mortgage look-ahead?
2008-03-23 Sun - Easter Sunday is unusually early this year (previously this day in 1913 & next in 2160; earliest, March 22, 1818 & 2285).
2009-01-01 Sun - NOAA: Termination of satellite processing of distress signals from 121.5/243 MHz emergency beacons. Use 406 MHz.
2009-02-13 Fri - 23:31:30 GMT is UNIX time_t 1234567890.
2009-09-09 Wed - 090909 is another possible valid nonsense or marker date; as with, of course, other 0x0x0x & 1x1x1x dates, or anything with YY small.
2???-??-?? ??? - Introduction of the Euro in the UK ???
2010-01-01 Fri - Y2.01K. There will be some who have coded only for Years 200#.
2010-01-01 Fri - Sorting YYMMDD decade-reversed covers 1990-2009 only.
2010-01-01 Fri - Reported ANSI C library overflow. Very dubious. RSVP if you can explain it.
2010-12-25 Sat - CMJD 55555.
2011-09-14 Wed - @01:46:39 UTC less leap seconds, GPS 999999999 seconds.
2011-11-11 Fri - Seen as a "marker" date - cf. 1999-09-09. Contains 11/11/11 11:11:11.


taken from: Critical and Significant Dates

This is dumb...

[jwthompson2]

We have a system that is potentially going to cause companies to have to upgrade their systems in order to handle a new ID scheme. I understand that companies want to save money, but eventually these things will run out and upgrades will need to be done. Would a smart move not be to bite the bullet and just produce a new numbering scheme with more longevity?

So many cars in the world...

[eamacnaghten]

Hmm - let me see - a 17 digit alphanumeric field - that is 286,511,799,958,070,431,838,109,696 different combinations.

I know they had made a lot of cars, but that many?

Re:from the articles picture (the vin number)

[p51d007]

Are you running the NICB decoder for that one? I have a copy of that program (since I work for law enforcement), comes in handy for what we do to verify the check digit etc.....dips**t's always try to mess with the VIN, but forget to code it correctly...

Why not retire..

[MisanthropicProgram]

and reuse the VINs from junked cars? Someone somewhere, especially in the insurance industry, must be tracking them.

Ooooooooh well.

[rice_burners_suck]

Well, this is a pretty serious situation, but slightly different than the Y2K problem. First of all, most of the software affected by Y2K was written in COBOL and ran on all kinds of mainframes. These were the kind of computers that had been programmed and debugged at one point in the past, and were eventually made to work flawlessly. They ran so well that the companies using them almost forgot they existed. When Y2K started approaching, it was suddenly necessary to dig up a bunch of really old systems, for many of which the documentation, or even the source code, was missing. Imagine having to re-create programming that had existed for years, just to keep date records correct. This was a huge expense for many organizations. The Y2K problem, however, only affected the kind of software that used 2 characters to store the date. Most programming done since the 80's, or even a bit earlier than that, uses integers to keep track of the date, and there are different dates that these things will roll over. So they are not affected by Y2K per se, but by a similar problem that will affect various systems from time to time.

On the other hand, the VIN problem will affect a larger number of computers than the Y2K problem. There are, of course, the few big manufacturers, who keep track of parts and whatnot. There are thousands of dealers, and perhaps tens of thousands of auto repair facilities. Then, of course, there are all the governments around the world that keep track of auto registration. All of these locations use VIN numbers in various ways, be it for record keeping, tracing design decisions and parts, locating parts for repairs, etc. Now imagine that all of these locations, some very big, and some very small, need new programming because of a change to the VIN system. And this change will affect all of these locations at the same time, not from time to time as with date rollover problems. Further, most auto repair facilities use computers and programming that they obtained years ago, and who knows if the software vendor is even around anymore. The source code is probably long gone for many of these applications.

The problem is that the VIN numbers are being used up as new vehicles are being manufactured. When the last VIN is gone, all of these systems will have to be up to date for the change, and that means a lot of money spent on new computers, new programming, and whatever trouble it takes to convert old records to the new system, which will have to be backwardly compatible with the old VIN numbering system.

Let this be a lesson: Whenever a unique number is needed, let's use about 40 digits in a base 36 system, consisting of letters and numbers. That'll cover us for a while.

Good for speeders!

[Just Some Guy]

I got clocked once at a pretty decent rate on an interstate highway. I was in the military at the time and in uniform, and the nice highway patrolman wrote the ticket for 5 mph over the limit (which was significantly under my real speed, unless you're my insurance agent, in which case I was framed, darn it, framed!).

I had recently upgraded my car and my home state lets you move your license plates to your new car as long as you sell your old one at the same time. Fortunately for me, the state hadn't gotten around to turning my '68 Mustang into a '92 Prizm and the patrolman copied the information straight from the computer to the ticket.

When I received a summons in the mail, I disputed it with the cause being that I was in a '92 Prizm and did not even own a '68 Mustang, and the complaint was completely dropped.

The moral of the story: if I find out that I share a VIN with an Edsel on blocks in some farmer's pasture, then the police will have to use a spectrometer to measure my speed. I'll be driving my "get out of jail free" car until the sonic booms shake it apart.

Re:I for welcome our new VIN invaders

[the_mad_poster]

Your clear, concise understanding of technology issues is only undermined by the minor fact that you screwed up all of the examples that you gave. 1) The "640k" quip is a misunderstood urban legend. 2) There's nothing wrong with IPv4 which is why there is no rush to switch it out. 3) The fact that pretty much everything kept running on 1/1/00 even though most of it was never touched for an "update" suggests that maybe it wasn't a big deal after all.

On the subject of IP, the only inherent problem in IPv4 was that nobody expected us to try hooking everything including the kitchen sink - literally - to the Internet.

why is this a crisis?

[fermion]

will be exhausted by the end of the decade

The Society of Automotive Engineers, which established the existing VIN system in 1981 and expected it to last 30 years, has formed a committee to address the impending shortage.

Perhaps I am daft, or perhaps the reporting was inaccurate, but I do not see the crisis. The second quote indicates the system was established in 1981 and was expect to last 30 years, which is 2011. The first quote indicates that the numbers will run out around 2009. Does this mean that the auto industry is in crisis because of a 10% error in their estimation? It really sounds like the numbers running out was expected, and the meeting to discuss the future should just be routine.

Unlike the Y2K thing, in which everyone assumed that computers would be replaced regularly, there was certainly no doubt that we would still be making cars in 2010, and if we depended on a VIN, those cars would need one.

From a programming point of view, I am sure many database designers used the VIN as the primary key, and this is why it will cost so much to revamp. After all, we were all assured that the number will always unique. Common sense, however, tells us not to trust anything we don't have total control over, and not to make design decisions based on the assumption that outside forces will never change their minds. Therefore, it might make sense for an auto manufacturer to use the VIN as a primary key. However, I wonder why it made sense for everyone else to do the same, assuming that this is the case.

OT but what about credit card numbers?

[tetranz]

I'm surprised we haven't heard something similar about CC numbers. Debit and credit cards, prepaid etc AFAIK all share the same numbering world wide. Does anyone know?

Re:Use More of the alphabet

[Trifthen]

We run an automotive listing and search system. We've been building and maintaining a list of manufacturers for every type of vehicle that started with over 50 manufacturers of regular road vehicles. Personally, I'm surprised they came up with this stupid system at all. One character for country? After removing I, O, Q, U and Z, that leaves 31. Now count how many countries there are in the world - I'll wait until you're done. Why, oh why can't they have designed something more scalable to begin with?

Re:from the articles picture (the vin number)

[david_reese]

Are you running the NICB decoder for that one?

No need. Carfax has a free service where the basic details come up before you pay for your report on the VIN. Also, people with a subscription can get details on any number of cars for the sub period. Since I just bought a car for my sister, I have a sub... here's a snippet of what carfax says about this VIN:

Accident Report
Date: Source:
06/29/1999 Michigan Police Report

Detail:
Accident Reported
in Oakland County
Involving a rear impact
with another motor vehicle
Moderate/Severe damage reported
Airbag deployed

don't forget the handwriting

[Tangurena]

Almost all of the warranty forms used by GM Ford and Chrysler (used for fixing radios or other electronics in the vehicle) have one stage where human handwriting is used. Uppercase and lower case can be really hard for even humans to distinguish. Along with some idiot leaving off 1 digit from the VIN can make the warranty processing situation more challenging.

Dealing with handwriting is why certain characters were eliminated. Think of error correcting/preventing codes. The check digit really only existed to prevent the casual abuser from falsifying warranty claims and VIN tags.

Re:Probably some truth to that.

[shawn99452]

Yes, my car also (1964 Dodge) has a VIN of less than 10 digits, all numbers. And it's on the inside door jam, since it was made 2 years before they were required to be visible outside the car. I had trouble getting it insured, and eventually the lady just put X's for the remaining digits, and the computer was okay with that. I would think though, that just adding another field, like VIN2 or something, would be an easy cheap fix. Or fixing VIN altogether, by using the first character or 2 as a length designator, so we don't have to worry about this nonsense again.

Re:Probably some truth to that.

[deacon]

Could you please share with us what "training" you did at the RMV

(a chair? horsewhip? cattle-prod? Brain-implant?)

to get them to input the number correctly?

I went thru that once a looong time ago, with a 6 digit vin on a motorcycle, and I was never able to get those @$$#0!&$ to budge off their asses. Finally had the local police department make up a vin#, with the 6 digets in the middle of it, and they took that.

Can you tell my blood pressure still Chernobyls at the memory of that whole farce?

There is LOADS of redundancy

[Andy_R]

Characters 4-8 are for body style, engine type, model and series.
Character 10 is the model year.
The last 6 characters are the serial number.

Unless a manufacturer makes more than 999,999 each of about 33^4 different models per year, I don't see the problem.