Slashdot Mirror

← Back to Stories (view on slashdot.org)

Show Me The Money - Microsoft Money Vs. Quicken

Posted by simoniker on from the do-not-pass-go dept.

prostoalex writes "The weblog entry 'Show me the money' is an interesting tale of Microsoft Money from a developer who now manages software development in the Tablet PC group at Microsoft. Having worked before with Money, which was assigned a task of beating Quicken, Philip describes the disasters that happen when marketing and advertising people rule the software development: 'Money's success or failure was judged using the same metrics as MSN's websites. Metrics like minutes viewed per month. Like ad revenue. Like click-through. Stickiness. I am not making this up.'"

31 of 222 comments (clear)

  1. Money software by WesG · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Most people don't use either because their bank/credit card doesn't support them.

    The biggest thing I have found useful is online bill pay.

    Yay

    1. Re:Money software by shokk · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Online billpay is great for month-to-month living, but if you want to do any planning at all, you should actively seek a bank that is compatible with one of those two. I don't mean seeing a couple of past months worth of statements, but seeing a few years worth of expenses and income that you can do custom reports and graphs on. A few banks that do online billpay allow you to download in either of those formats, so even if the software does not directly link to the bank (see OFX and www.corillian.com), then you can still do the above.

      Amazing how people will strive for maximum compatibility out of their phone and computers, but when it comes to managing the resource that pays for those, we don't mind what services we get.

      --
      "Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart, he dreams himself your master."
    2. Re:Money software by jilles · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I think the market is pretty much non existent outside the US. At least I'm not aware of any supported software by my bank (Abn Amro, one of the major banks in the Netherlands) other than their own web based software.

      And judging from the review, we aren't missing much. I pay my bills online and haven't seen the inside of a bank for several years.

      --

      Jilles
  2. Sorry for the possible tangent by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    This just adds credence to a problem that Microsoft seems to be suffering from. The Marketing and Advertising divisions of Microsoft dictate the direction of the company. Sure, there needs to be some work done with their code-monkeys to stop these exploits from even being created in the first place, but maybe the programmer's jobs would be easier if they did not have to perform on a tight deadline created by those who have nothing to do with the products' creation. A shame too, considering that not all MS software is crap. I'm not an apologist, I'm just not afraid to admit that it's not entirely the fault of the coders that they have working for them.

    1. Re:Sorry for the possible tangent by TheRealMindChild · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Cmon.... all of us IN the business knows how this usually works.... salesman goes out, trying to sell a product, the customer asks "Well we need it to do this... can it do this?" "SUURE IT CAN", then they come back and tell us what they just promised them... stupid, insecure, impractical... doesnt matter.

      --

      "When life gives you lemons, don't make lemonade. Make life take the lemons back!" -- Cave Johnson
  3. Submission Error by Daengbo · · Score: 4, Funny

    The weblog entry 'Show me the money' is an interesting tale of Microsoft Money from a developer who now manages software development in the Tablet PC group at Microsoft.

    That should read: The weblog entry 'Show me the money' is an interesting tale of Microsoft Money from a former Misrosoft developer who now waits in line for his free cheese every week.

    Wow, I don't expect him to last long there making public statements like this!

    --
    Put identity in the browser.
  4. Where's Money's roll today? by Albanach · · Score: 5, Insightful
    As banks produce better and better online banking systems, is there still a place for Money / Quicken?

    Sure there are folks who have disperate accounts and complex fincial arrangements where that might make sense, and they're the 1% actually using these products. For everyone else, a decade ago there was a demand because people wanted to keep track of their finances between bank statements. Today you just click online and your bank shows you exactly where your finances are.

    As banks try to differentiate themselves in the online marketplace, you can bet they'll expand their offerings until they compete with the offerings from Intuit and Microsoft. Perhaps those firms should stop trying to sell millions of copies to customers and instead try and sell server based software to the banks to produce a customer interface, or are they already doing thatas well?

    1. Re:Where's Money's roll today? by eSims · · Score: 5, Interesting
      Short Answer: Yes.
      Long Answer: Read Below

      Those of us whom accountants might say have even somewhat complicated tax returns require a program to help categorize and summarize all of the various transactions. Now my Bank doesn't have enough information to do that... and they don't need it either (*dons tinfoil hat*)... and if they did I would find another bank (*removes tinfoil hat*).

      I run Quicken all year long and when tax time comes around it's a matter of running the right reports and taking the results and putting them in the various schedules. Even the IRS is often satisfied with the reports generated by Quicken, though they may ask for actual receipts and such during the audit.

      The point being that Quicken (sorry guys, tried moving over to OSS and wasn't satisfied with current state) gives me detailed Tax related categorization and summarization that my bank statement (online banking service) doesn't.

      --
      I .sig therefore I am!
    2. Re:Where's Money's roll today? by NickisGod.com · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Today you just click online and your bank shows you exactly where your finances are.

      This is why people end up paying bank fees and bouncing checks so often. Automatic payments, delay in deposits, etc. Balancing your books is just as important today as it was fifteen/fifty years ago. Any online banking system I've used tells you how much the bank has (more a less an instant statement). All so often, however, we set up automatic payments, we have direct deposit, financial movements a statement won't reflect because they haven't happened yet, and you need plan for these. I have no doubt online banking will reach this sophistication, but there will always be a place for the bank's balance and your books balance.

      By the way, I have Bank of America, and I love their report of pending debits/credits, it's helped me plan for unexpected (fraudulent, like cancelled health insurance and an ISP who decided to continue charging me) debits from my account by transferring money from my savings, avoiding fees/etc. that make things messy.

      Is there an online system that works like a register (where you can enter a check that may not post for three days), or do they all simply reflect balances and posted transactions still?

    3. Re:Where's Money's roll today? by JWhitlock · · Score: 4, Informative
      As banks produce better and better online banking systems, is there still a place for Money / Quicken?

      Here's what Microsoft Money tells me:

      What bills are due soon, and how much I will probably owe. It helps remind me about twice-a-year bills (auto insurance) and once-every-few-years bills (magazine subscriptions).

      An estimate of my cash flow as impacted by bills, salary, and other expenses, projected with some accuracy for one month, six months, years, etc.

      Categorization of my expenses. I can calculate my "lazy belly" ratio (money spent on eating out over money spent on groceries), look for trends, and look where I can cut back on expenses

      Set a budget, and track how I'm doing. This makes the cash flow estimates more reliable

      Track my 401K and retirement accounts, my Roth IRAs, and after-tax account. This includes tracking the performance of individual stocks and funds, and calculating personal rates of return. I also get a reminder to deposit money in the Roths every month.

      Quickly determine when I can safely move money from checking to savings, and when I need to move from savings to checking.

      Plan for buying a new car, a new house, or bringing home a baby.

      Plan for retirement, by estimating my long-term needs (college, health costs, desired retirement date), and creating a plan to meet those needs.

      In short, Microsoft Money lets me feel in control of my finances. It has saved me money, in avoiding overdraft charges due to unexpected bills. It has made me money, in being able to keep more in an interest bearing savings account, keeping checking as low as possible. Finally, I am saving more than ever, and I have a retirement plan which I believe will work.

      The fact that you think only 1% need this, then maybe you need to think about your retirement needs, and see if you are keeping a good eye on your cash.

  5. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  6. Hold on by GillBates0 · · Score: 4, Interesting
    Metrics like minutes viewed per month. Like ad revenue. Like click-through. Stickiness. I am not making this up.

    From what I know, Microsoft money is a standalone application for Windows. How, then would they measure minutes viewed, click-through, etc unless they secretly transfer these statistics when the computer is online?

    I went to the Microsoft Money (TM) website, and they don't seem to have a web-based or online version of it, in which context these stats would make sense.

    Does M$ track and report the amount of time each application was in use on a PC? Sounds improbable, but with a TFH on, it's hard to say.

    --
    An Indian-American Hindu committed to non-violent thought/speech/action alarmed by the global explosion of radical Islam
    1. Re:Hold on by TechnoVooDooDaddy · · Score: 5, Interesting

      MS Money is basically a browser-app these days, complete with "ads" for stock/portfolio management websites cleverly disguised of course. I liked it well enough, it came free with my notebook from dell, until i started hearing Internet Explorer "clicks" when i was "browsing" my accounts. A few clicks later, i realized i was actually on an internet site. putting my personal banking information that close to the internet without me being clearly aware of any delineation made me nervous.

  7. Totally offtopic, but... by wfberg · · Score: 4, Interesting

    OMG the author mentions Telemate! I've forgotten all about it. Well, not really forgotten it, only forgot its name (the name Terminate, from its l33t competitor hangs in my mind for some reason).

    Telemate was the ULTIMATE BBS terminal application! It did all sorts of funky protocols (like Z-modem with resumed downloads), it did chained downloads with correctly guesstimated time-left for current/all file(s), you could use plugins (like one plugin that let you see JPGs when downloading so you could easily cancel the ghey ones before having completed them) it was multi-threaded, had cool text-based windows, scripts, it was totally the bomb!

    *snif* finally a Microsoft employee brings a tear to my eye for something else than excruciating frustration..

    Excuse me while I wallow in nostalgia..

    --
    SCO employee? Check out the bounty
  8. Beware of geeks bearing gifts by John+Jorsett · · Score: 4, Insightful
    Philip describes the disasters that happen when marketing and advertising people rule the software development



    As opposed to a bunch of propeller-beanie techies who wouldn't know what a customer wants if he was screaming it in their faces? I've worked on projects where the technologists were in charge, and it's equally ugly. The best result seems to come from collaborative efforts where the marketing types say, "We need X," and the tech heads tell them why it's lame, derivative, and technologically uncool. The two sides squabble for a while, then someone in management threatens both sides with unemployment and it gets done.

    1. Re:Beware of geeks bearing gifts by sane? · · Score: 5, Insightful
      Those 'propeller-beanie techies', as you put it, are often more grounded in reality than the marketing and advertising liars that incompetent management often attempt to 'put in charge'.

      Market weenies are too much of 'today' - they are forever trying to catch up with where others have been, reacting rather than acting. They should NEVER be anything other than support to something with a development time greater than six months in the IT world. The drive for something to be delivered in a year's time should always be someone who can imagine that far out.

      And on a related point, do you notice how you feel quite happy using abusive terms for those with technical skill? Do you ever call marketing and advertising 'liars' (as I did above)? If not, why not? It's an apt description - but maybe they would complain to much, it wouldn't be socially acceptable.

      Until you start having respect for those that can do, you will never learn to work successfully TOGETHER, and you'll continue to think conflict is the best collaboration.

  9. Re:Hmmmmm.... by Xtifr · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Microsoft has never needed a decent marketing team -- they were handed their monopoly on a silver platter by IBM. Since then, their business strategy has had more to do with intimidating OEMs than appealing to customers. Still, I don't think their office ads are as bad or dumb as their choice of a bug as the spokesmodel for MSN! :)

  10. Money vs Quicken by Gannoc · · Score: 5, Interesting


    Quicken has much better set-up, more support, and a more professional look. Money has the ONE "killer" feature for me. It can show a chart, based on your bills and paychecks you enter in, showing how much money is in an account.

    I use this to look at my checking account, and make sure that my lowest point of money each month remains at a certain level. Its very obvious weeks in advance if your checking account is going to drop below the minimum balance, etc.

    I used quicken for a few days and couldn't find this feature, so I went back to Money.

    1. Re:Money vs Quicken by xlogan · · Score: 4, Informative

      Quicken has this feature in the Calendar. It shows a chart at the bottom that will tell you, based on your scheduled bills or payments, how much money you'll have for each day of the month.

  11. Re:I dont need some fancy finance program... by nuggz · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I used to do that.
    I've found Gnucash to be vastly superior.
    It easily tracks my expenses and account balances.
    To do that in a spreadsheet would be more complicated.

  12. When it first came out... by Piquan · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I worked in retail back then. We dealt with a lot of Microsoft products, and I saw their play many times.

    First, you find a market with a clear leader. Then, you produce a knock-off, and use marketing to move eyeballs towards your product, convincing the masses that it's superior. (This is the only part that the actual product quality plays. If it sucks so bad that nobody will be fooled into thinking it's superior, then the quality needs to be better.) Finally, if it looks like the market leader will survive, then buy them out; otherwise, drop your price to something minimal and wait it out.

    This was played out nowhere as clearly as Quicken. Microsoft made MS Money (which sucked terribly). MS did everything they could to make people see Money. Then they tried to buy Intuit, the makers of Quicken (but Unc' Sam put a stop to that).

    Microsoft was clearly dumbfounded. Their three-step plan didn't work. What could they do? MS Money thrashed in agony for a year or two until Microsoft realized they might actually have to put some engineers into improving their product.

    Not long after that, I left retail, and knocked the last dust of Microsoft products off my boots. So I don't know what's happened since then; only that every bank I've used supports MS Money downloads.

    Most of us watched something similar in the browser wars, but more pronouced. Didja notice that IE was constantly improving lots, right up until IE 4? That's when they started to bundle it with the OS to get eyeballs instead of having to rely on other people who might be able to form opinions of their own. (Actually, the bundling started with IE 3 IIRC, but towards the end of its lifecycle.)

    Anyway, when you think of things in those terms, then you want eyeballs. You want people thinking about MS Money as long as possible. That's your only goal. Meeting customer demand is irrelevant, so long as you don't fail by enough to lose eyeballs. And eyeballs are what marketroids know about (well, that and gin).

    This entire business strategy is exactly the way for a successful monopoly in one market to expand into other markets. (Leveraging the monopolized markets, like happened with IE, is good too when you can pull it off.) It's terrible for the society, because it mutilates Adam Smith's invisible hand and leaves one finger. But it's good for the share prices.

  13. GNUcash by neongenesis · · Score: 5, Informative
    I Started using GNUcash on Linux for exactly the reasons that were stated. I wanted basic checkbook balance, a view of how I manage and mismanage my paycheck, and a little projection of how the bills would eat into the bank account by next paycheck so as to budget toys.

    The learning curve was fairly high, not being an accountant and not knowing anything about this Double Entry Bookkeeping thing.

    I had used Quicken before, and found it OK, but I don't normally run windows...

    Once I made it through the Included tutorials and documentation, I have used GNUcash regularly for the last year or so and am a very happy user.

    It is unfortunate that GNUcash is not on enough radar screens to show up in a weblog like this one. A REAL comparison would be nice.

  14. He's right, dammit by Alioth · · Score: 5, Interesting

    A friend I know runs a small business. They use MS Money to keep track of small finance items, sort of like a cash book.

    They still use the 16-bit version of Money from the Windows 3.11 for Workgroup days. Why? Because it's simple, and all it does is the books. They won't upgrade because all the later versions of Money want to go on the internet and do other fancy things making it harder - not easier - to use. This is one of the points that the article mentions first.

    Personally, I use gnucash and it does for me :-)

    --
    Oolite: Elite-like game. For Mac, Linux and Windows
  15. Re:Hmmmmm.... by TheGavster · · Score: 4, Funny

    Especially a creepy bug ... I mean, its this pudgy guy in spandex following children around. It portrays an accurate representation of the spyware you pick up with MS web products, but I wouldn't think they'd market that as a feature ...

    --
    "Because Science" is one step from "Because old book". Try "Because of my experiment testing my falsifiable assertion".
  16. Re:I dont need some fancy finance program... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    I keep all of my cash in my left pocket. The rest of my "personal worth" is tied up in my gas tank.

  17. Yes, but sales is different than marketing by Bozdune · · Score: 4, Insightful

    There is a difference between sales and marketing. As you point out, salespeople have to be reigned in and controlled, because they will sell anything. Many software salespeople truly don't understand the limitations of their product, and will try to put a square peg in a round hole if they can get the sale, even if that means shipping an engineer with every unit.

    What the article was talking about was a Marketing organization that wasn't thinking straight. There is a profound difference. In this case, Marketing was out of control, not Sales. I have seen this many times. They made one of the most common mistakes that marketing organizations make, namely checklist selling against the competition. This is a no-win situation. First one product is "ahead", then the other, wake me up when you have something new to say.

    In order to really make a dent in a market, you have to change the playing field, not just tweak the product. Microsoft is scary/dangerous not because they release new versions of Office occasionally, but because from time to time they do really profound things like boot everyone else out of the Office business by betting on Windows when everyone thought Windows was a non-starter. Remember when Excel used to ship with its own Windows shell, before Windows was available? No? Well, I do. I remember the difference between that early Excel and Lotus, too. Lotus had more checklist features for a long time, but Excel -- it was just plain beautiful and fun to use. Once you used it, you couldn't go back to Lotus, even if it had some bullshit statistical function that Excel didn't have (yet).

    Now THAT'S product marketing -- long term perspective, vision, eye on the goal line, pick your cliche of the day.

  18. Re:Hmmmmm.... by Overzeetop · · Score: 4, Funny

    Of COURSE he's not a feature, he's a...well, you know.

    --
    Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
  19. Here's the problem. by khasim · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Neither Quicken nor Money understands the information that they're downloading.

    So, they go by the date of your last download. But you can override the date (in case you've deleted entries that you should not have).

    So, they download everything for that date range, even if the information is ALREADY there.

    I can understand doing it that way for the download, but they should also do some basic checks to see if duplicate entries exist. They don't.

    In more technical terms, they are "brittle". As long as you don't make an error, they are fine. But people make mistakes.

    If the banks TRULY supported those apps, they would be keyed on unique transaction numbers. The app could query the Bank's server for a list of transaction numbers associated with that account and then compare that list with the list it already had and just download any changes.

    I'm not sure how long banks keep their transaction records, but if the apps were really supported, it would be possible to download all your data instead of picking a date and starting from there.

    With the current level of "support", all you get is an automated method of receiving your monthly statement. You could get the same functionality by typing in your statement yourself.

  20. The easy way by kaoshin · · Score: 4, Funny

    Microsoft money and Quicken both suck because it means I have to like do things and keep track of things. Seriously, it looks like too much work.
    Here's what I've done instead. I have automatic paycheck deposits, all my bills on automatic payment and I use an ATM card for cash. Property taxes I pay online and my IRS return takes like 5 minutes to do because I don't own or buy jack. I never worry about checks because I don't write any. I should have my house payed off in a few years and I'm under 30 years old. I don't make much, but since I don't have shopping sickness I've always got cash.
    Once the house is payed I'm going to get a part time telecommuting job, make a recurring grocery list which will be delivered to me in the mail once a month, and just never leave the house except to maybe go have a beer. There is a bar down the street that gives flight miles for your tab, so if I get drunk enough I can get a free cruise or a vacation or something and meet tropical chicks and party. Who needs financial software? Just don't blow your money on stupid stuff or get married or have kids or anything that takes all your money away. Its worked for me.

  21. Use MONEYDANCE! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    I have been a Quicken user for longer than most people around here have been out of diapers. I started back with Quicken 3.0 for DOS.

    Ever since I discovered Linux, I have wanted a replacement that I could live with. I tried lots of stuff running Quicken with Crossover, GNUCash, etc..

    But Moneydance wins. It looks a little primiative but it really really is nicely done. It runs on any platform Linux, Windows, MacOSX, Solaris, HPUX etc.. It has a great development company. Email them and they will email you back in a day or less with detailed technical information. Try that with Quicken and Microsoft.

    There is also a very active and helpful online community for support.

    It supports most all online banks systems because it totally emulates quicken to the banks. It even has integrated online bill pay that works great with my BancOne account.

    Try it... for $29.99 its one the best peices of software out there. If your not against paying for anything its great.

    There is also a free 30 trial that will import all your data from your old program.

    http://www.moneydance.com

  22. please please God give us alternatives by mabu · · Score: 4, Insightful

    On behalf of everyone who is being held hostage by Intuit's mafia subscription scheme, I am pleading with developers out there to come up with some sort of alternative. MS Money doesn't seem like an acceptable alternative. We need some ethical, unmaniacal finance software. Please please PLEASE! I'm sick of having to pay a few hundred dollars a year to get tax tables for my accounting system that should be freely available. I'm sick of being forced to upgrade my software to keep it running. I'm sick of Quicken collecting private information on my company and my clients. I don't need to route every facet of my financial dealings through some new "feature" that Quicken has foisted upon us. It has to stop - we need alternatives!!