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Broadband Blimps

mcabiling writes "SansWire Networks will demonstrate their "Stratellite" technology next week. For those of you who aren't familiar with SansWire, they plan to build a wireless network with balloons or "airships" as they call them. "A Stratellite(TM) is a high-altitude airship that when in place in the stratosphere will provide a stationary platform for transmitting various types of wireless communications services currently transmitted from cell towers and satellites. It is not a balloon or a blimp. It is a high-altitude airship." Looks like a blimp to me..."

17 of 232 comments (clear)

  1. They are NOT Blimps! by YankeeInExile · · Score: 5, Informative

    It is not a balloon or a blimp. It is a high-altitude airship." Looks like a blimp to me...
    The sarcastic wicked side of me wants to ask, "Do you also have trouble distinguishing cows from automobiles?". The designation of various categories of lighter-than-air craft is not just random - there are specific design features. OPs glib statement comes across like the PHB who says, "Looks like a television set to me ... " when confronted with a computer monitor.

    The things that make the stratellite airship not a balloon or a blimp, based on reading the fine FAQ are:

    1. Rigid airframe: Blimps get their envelope shape from internal pressure acting against the envelope. These craft get their shape from a rigid airframe.
    2. Airfoil shape: Blimps have a streamlined shape, but it is symettrical with reference to the flight motion. These craft have an airfoil shape that can provide lift.

    A communication platform that sits at 65000 feet and stays relatively still sounds like a dream come true. None of the cost of keeping a constellation of LEO satellites moving, none of the latency of geosync. This would also seem a great technology for providing ad hoc coverage to a remote area for a special event. Put a couple of moderately directional (say +23 dBi) antennas, one pointed at Black Rock City, and the other at Civilization, and you have low-cost temporary ludicrous bandwidth at Burning Man. (Feel free to substitute YOUR favorite boondock~based used-to-be-cool-'til-they-sold-out art festival if you are offended by BM)

    I for one, welcome our helium filled stationary communication overlords.

    --
    How does the Slashdot Effect happen given that no slashdotters ever RTFA?
    1. Re:They are NOT Blimps! by stienman · · Score: 2, Informative

      The sarcastic wicked side of me wants to ask, "Do you also have trouble distinguishing cows from automobiles?".

      Only when then cow's primary means of transport is four wheels connected to its frame that roll on the ground.

      According to the web site the blimp's primary means of staying aloft is the fact that it's lighter than air. It requires (and is defined by) its bouyant gas.

      I shouldn't have to remind you that previous commercial blimps all had/have a rigid airframe.

      The fact that it has a shape which provides lift means nothing when that lift is additional to the bouyancy and the craft does not depend in any part on that lift. It can take off, operate, and land on a windless day without using the engines to do more than keep a particular position.

      An airship is either a Blimp or Dirigible. The only other lighter than air aircraft type is a Balloon which is defined as free-floating (non directed).

      So they can claim it's an airship, but when they say it's not a blimp it's an opinion - blimps and dirigibles are airships, airships are blimps and dirigibles.

      AFAICT, they're simply applying PR spin to prevent people from associating their products with blimp disasters of old. The reality is that most people now consider blimps to be as reliable as goodyear blimps.

      This technology is probably going to fail anyway. It has too many complex parts. One of the (good) reasons to keep cell towers on the ground is that each tower can handle only so much aggregate bandwidth. That's 5 fast users or 30 voice users, etc. A balloon trying to service more than 100 users is going to have some serious problems. If they build their own radio technology it'll invariably be worse than Wi-Fi and more costly. If they attempt to use Wi-Fi they will still have to give customers custom high power hardware and they'll be messing everyone else's signals to boot.

      Instead of refitting these balloons twice a year they won't be able to keep them up for more than a month at a time, if that long.

      -Adam

    2. Re:They are NOT Blimps! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      I shouldn't have to remind you that previous commercial blimps all had/have a rigid airframe.

      Not unless you want to prove that you're a moron, no. Precisely zero blimps, commercial or otherwise, had/have a rigid airframe.

      So they can claim it's an airship, but when they say it's not a blimp it's an opinion

      A blimp is a nonrigid airship; vent the lift gas, and a blimp loses its shape. If you put in a frame to prevent that, what you have is a rigid airship, and therefore not a blimp. The existence of such a frame is a question of fact, not opinion. Also, your belief (and that of whatever moderators called you "informative") in rigid blimps is a clear demonstration that you are too stupid to operate a dictionary.

  2. Re:Nitrogen as a lifting gas? by dmh20002 · · Score: 3, Informative

    probably as dumpable ballast to maintain altitude

  3. Coverage by YankeeInExile · · Score: 4, Informative

    The difference in pathloss between the SSP (21km slantrange) and the edge of a 75 mile coverage circle (122km slant range) is only 15.3 dB. Not an insurmountable design figure. You might need to use a directional antenna at the edge of coverage, where a more omni antenna would suffice at the center.

    --
    How does the Slashdot Effect happen given that no slashdotters ever RTFA?
  4. Re:Nitrogen as a lifting gas? by pcraven · · Score: 5, Informative

    NH3 is a lifting gas. Some balloonists use it as an alternative to helium (expensive) or hydrogen (safety risks).

  5. Re:Nice technology by Christopher+Thomas · · Score: 3, Informative

    Sounds like an attempt to overcome the runaway expenditures of Teledesic's failed LEO project. The problem with these high-altitude sender/receivers is that--while they offer a technology solution--there is a corresponding weakness in application.

    For example, latency in these systems make it unattractive for many internet applications (who wants to play FPS's over a spread-slotted Aloha CDMA system?).


    As long as you have a relatively nearby ground station to relay to, latency isn't a horrible problem. Right underneath one of these things, round-trip latency is about 0.13 milliseconds. At the edge of a blimp's broadcast range (around 100 km if I'm reading things correctly), it's 1.3 milliseconds round-trip.

    Think of these as a much cheaper way of building a very tall relay tower, for something closer to reality than the "satellite" analogy.

  6. Re:It's a Blimp... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

    By definition, an airship has a rigid framework, blimps and ballons are shaped just by internal gas pressure.

  7. Remember Aerostats? by ishmalius · · Score: 2, Informative
    Remember the drug-interdiction floating aerostats that are/were lined up along the US/Mexico border? These would make an awesome set of communications relays. I would not be surprised if they carried transponders or repeaters for just that purpose, even if only to communicate with each other.

    Imagine 802.16 on one of these things.

  8. Spherical geometry by pjt33 · · Score: 3, Informative
    Don't forget that the Earth isn't planar. Assuming it's a sphere, which isn't too far off,
    Area = 2 PI R^2 (1 - cos theta) where theta is angle subtended by diameter
    cos theta = 1 - Area / (2 PI R^2)
    But
    diameter = R theta
    so
    radius = arccos(1 - Area / (2 PI R^2)) * R / 2
    = arccos(1 - 300,000 mi^2 / (2 PI * (6371 km)^2)) * 6371 km / 2
    = arccos(1 - 777000 km^2 / 255000000 km^2) * 3186km
    = arccos(0.997) * 1980 mi
    = 153 miles.
  9. rigid airframe by blitz487 · · Score: 2, Informative

    The difference between a zeppelin and a blimp is a zeppelin has a rigid airframe. That may be what they're talking about when saying it's an airship, not a blimp.

  10. Blimps are airships, and stratellites are good by Foxwell · · Score: 5, Informative

    Any aircraft that gets most of its lift from lighter-than air gases and can be propelled against the wind is an airship. It floats in air and it goes where you want it, so it is an air-ship. Ok? Blimps are airships. Or dirigibles--different verbal approach, same idea, because the word emphasizes you can _direct_ the motion.

    Several operations have tried this high-altitude business. There are issues with it but if you can make it work, the advantages over satellites should be clear. Why not use an airplane? Because the damn things use a lot of fuel and must move faster than the airship might be forced by shifting winds to move--relative speed matters with high-bandwidth connections.

    The high altitude is chosen in part for the coverage range, but also to seek a layer of air where the average wind _force_ is lowest, to minimize the power needed to stay in place. With this design of airship they are going to have to turn to keep drag down if the wind shifts. True of all practical designs yet except spheres which have unacceptably high drag in _every_ direction--flattened disks called "lenticular" layouts might have lower inherent profile drag but have a tendency to pitch sideways to the wind that can only be combatted with fins that break the symmetry. So inevitably they will be blown off their ideal station point from time to time, the question is can they turn into the new wind fast enough to keep the divergence small. It depends on what the system users consider a small deviation at that range.

    I would wait and see if their next demo comes off. Their last demo was about a year and a half ago, using Techsphere spherical airships. Just before the scheduled launch date their demo airship blew away! Nowadays Techsphere is persuading the Navy they can reliably operate for surveillance missions--I don't know if they paid attention to suggestions from people like me about how to reduce the drag of a sphere or if they have just had the good luck not to encounter severe winds in their demos yet. But meanwhile Sanswire has clearly washed their hands of Techsphere! Anyway they have been here before. We'll see I hope.

    1. Re:Blimps are airships, and stratellites are good by zookie · · Score: 2, Informative

      The high altitude is chosen in part for the coverage range, but also to seek a layer of air where the average wind _force_ is lowest, to minimize the power needed to stay in place.

      Both you and the FAQ make the point that the decreased air density at high altitudes results in less force on the airship, but you also have to realize that the decreased air density means that the form of propulsion is also less effective. Simply speaking, with a propeller-driven airplane, as the altitude increases, the amount of air the propeller moves with each rotation decreases -- thus decreased power. That's one of the reasons why many single engine airplanes have a maximum service ceiling of around 15,000 feet -- they simply can't move enough air with the propellers.

  11. Re:Nice technology by Dyolf+Knip · · Score: 2, Informative

    135 _micro_seconds. Times two to get back down to ground-based networks, and you're at a whopping 0.270 milliseconds. I just pinged google and got return times of around 100 milliseconds. So the signal propogation time is essentially totally insignificant.

    --
    Dyolf Knip
  12. Re:Small-scale wifi from balloons. by Gordonjcp · · Score: 2, Informative

    It's line-of-sight, though. Distance is far less important for QRP microwave than obstructions.

  13. FAA Definitions by zookie · · Score: 2, Informative


    From the Federal Aviation Regulations:

    - Airship means an engine-driven lighter-than-air aircraft that can be steered.

    - Balloon means a lighter-than-air aircraft that is not engine driven, and that sustains flight through the use of either gas buoyancy or an airborne heater.

    Unfortunately, they don't define blimp.

  14. Re:Stratellite altitude by Foxwell · · Score: 2, Informative

    There really isn't much call for using hydrogen these days; helium costs more but it will be only a small part of the total outlay, it's not like in the 1930s.

    BTW Hindenburg was _not_ covered in flash powder! That theory is dead wrong. Its main proponent made a complete fool of himself by staging a demonstration where he ignited a piece of the Hindenburg's skin with a blowtorch, and the damn thing just smoldered a little. It was the hydrogen, which was equivalent in heat release potential to 50 tons of gasoline but burned a lot faster, that burned up the ship and there is zero evidence the skin had anything to do with it. Or how come this guy had a piece of it to abuse on camera?

    As for hurricanes--how fast does the wind blow 65000 feet _above_ a hurricane? Probalby no faster than winds are already blowing up there is my guess. If not, you can always have extra airships and station then upwind so new ones are being blown in as fast as old ones blown out, and bring the displaced ones down afterward and use them later. For the latter option it helps not to use hydrogen!