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USA PATRIOT Act Survives Amendment Attempt
crem_d_genes writes "A bill to modify the USA PATRIOT Act that would have blocked part of the legislation's provisions that allow for the investigation of people's reading habits was defeated by a 210-210 vote in the U.S House of Representives. The House leaders kept the roll call open for 23 minutes past the 15 minute deadline to persuade 10 Representatives to change votes. According to the article 'Rep. Zach Wamp, R-Tenn., said he switched his initial "yes" vote to "no" after being shown Justice Department documents asserting that terrorists have communicated over the Internet via public library computers.' On the other hand, 'Critics of the Patriot Act argued that even without it, investigators can get book store and other records simply by obtaining subpoenas or search warrants.'"
but I don't see anyone moving to block them. Seriously, how will this stop terrorists? You can go to walmart.com and get a computer that is quite capable of decent encryption for $200, and maybe an extra $150 or so tops for a monitor. Internet access $20 a month. You can also get a ton of books(in pdf) off of limewire/kazaa/whatever. The terrorists of 9/11 were well financed, I'm sure the billionaire Bin Laden could afford a few thousand worth of computer equipment. All this provision does is help the FBI spy on average people, not terrorists.
*begin rant
Also, what is this BS of people breaking house rules just because they want their law passed. The abuse of procedure here pales in comparison to what happened in the medicare bill. Why do we even have congress anymore? With the rise of political parties(which Washington warned against in his farewell speech), pretty much all the votes are predictable. With a few notable exceptions most congressmen are sheep, toeing the party line..... Maybe if we had some more original thought in congress, stuff like this wouldn't happen end rant
How ironic it is that a law which allows the government to keep track of reading habits (let alone our surfing habits), is called a Patriot Act. Not long ago, countries such as Communist Russia were considered un-American because they practiced such invasion of privacy. Now the right wing, who fought so vigorously in the past against such "Communist" practices are their strongest defenders in this country today.
Those willing to give up a little liberty for a little security deserve neither security nor liberty.
- Benjamin Franklin
being shown Justice Department documents asserting that terrorists have communicated over the Internet via public library computers.' On the other hand, 'Critics of the Patriot Act argued that even without it, investigators can get book store and other records simply by obtaining subpoenas or search warrants.'"
Who wants to get a subpoena or search warrant? That requires talking to a judge and getting him to sign a piece of paper.
Who wants a papertrail when they steal you away in the night to an undisclosed location? Let's just call it a 'Cuban Beachfront Resort'.
What is music when you despise all sound?
According to the article 'Rep. Zach Wamp, R-Tenn., said he switched his initial "yes" vote to "no" after being shown Justice Department documents asserting that terrorists have communicated over the Internet via public library computers.'
When will they understand that computers are simply tools? Would they be up in arms if they found out that terrorists use public transport to meet each other? Would there be draconian restrictions on who can board the subway?
how has the patriot act directly affected you?
Oh come on. How has any piece of legislation "directly affected" you? Sure, no one's come to my door to arrest me citing the Patriot Act, but then again, they sure could if they wanted to go through my library records and think I'm a national security threat.
It's not about whether the Patriot Act has "directly affected" you, it's about the gradual erosion of your civil liberties this Act affords.
And do you think there would be big front page stories if there were cases of abuse of the Act? Of course not. Just because you haven't heard about it doesn't mean it isn't going on.
Please check out "The Little Engine that Could" from your local library. It will have the infidels guessing as to what we are up to, when we could be up to what we already know how to do.
Legislation like this part of the the PATRIOT Act is a waste of paper. Why would a terrorist now check out "Bomb Building For Dummies" from a US library after knowing his reading habits could be watched? Instead, they can browse material inside the library--taking notes & photocopying particularly relevant bits. Or they could buy said books from a bookstore, paying cash. Or they could read it on the net. Or they could just rely on other terrorist communication and training channels.
It effectively wastes the time and effort of librarians and law enforcement officials who have to search for these idiots. It also strips away privacy from all of us. I hope that if your representative voted to keep this sucker, you will write letters & protest with your vote!
I suppose this is just an indication of things to come. From my strongly euro-centric point of view the United States of America is about to become either a dictatorship or a police state... that is unless the American people wake up and smell the corruption and blatant abuse of power by their elected(?) leaders.
:)
Best of luck to you. You're going to need it.
And no, at the moment the European Union is just as bad, if not worse. We're doomed
You've got to be kidding me. Just because you haven't heard of any abuse of the PATRIOT act hardly means that it hasn't happened.
Also, in order to see what the repercusions of a law are, you have to think it through to the extremes. It is easily possible to abuse this rule. When I was younger, I was interested in all sorts of things. Like the Anarchist's Cookbook and others that contained recipes for bombs and other lethal items. Now, I am a good person who doesn't blow people up. But I wouldn't want to be hauled into jail without a trial and without even a search warrant because I had something that Ashcroft doesn't like. And since I was a minor at the time, my parents would have had to face all sorts of legal repercusions as well.
I mean is it really that hard to get a warrant? A phone call to a judge and they can do whatever they want legally. That is part of the checks and balances that this country is founded on. No part of the government can be prosecutor, judge, jury, and executioner. At least that is how I was lead to understand it in civics class.
I don't want to be spied on and I don't do suspicios things. I do attend the local library. That hardly makes me a terrorist, but apparently it is enough to flag the PATRIOT boys into thinking that I am more worthy of attention than my illiterate friends.
Ceci n'est pas une sig.
:wq!
how has the patriot act directly affected you?
By making it impossible for me to answer this question, since it is now illegal for my librarian to tell me if the PATRIOT Act is affecting me.
in the senate, as GW had blatantly professed his undying devotion to the Patriot Act as well as he had decided to Veto this bill if it had cleared the Senate.
So its not enough there are 210 people out there who think this law stinks, we need to get GW out of his chair so as to salvage what little freedom this country still possess.
GW doesnt scare me, he makes me laugh, but he doesnt scare me. Cheney and Ashcroft scares me. The indifference of half the country scares me. People who are willing to send other people's kids in to war, in to a hail of bullets, scare me. People who will stomp all over the rules of the land so as to feel powerful, to win their own private dirty war scares me. The Presidents dependence on the religious right scares me.
I am not an american and neither have I the right to vote. I am helpless in what I can do, despite the immense respect to the people around me as well as the country that I live in. I believe America can be a whole lot better than what it is, its standing among other nations, its perspective. I believe this country and its people are being held back, day by day, kept on check, from being a true leader of the free world. I believe, if we do not turn back this course, come November, the road ahead for America is bleak and fraught with peril.
Rapid Nirvana
Actually, house rules were not broken. As I noted below, 15 minutes was originally scheduled for the vote, but the floor rules of the House permit such a period of time to be extended. What was done was fully within house rules. It's a simple lesson: don't trust slashdot writeups for all your information - look up the house rules yourself, or at least find a more reputable source.
I honestly don't believe I'm important enough and/or interesting enough to have anybody read my e-mail.
Now here's an interesting bit of apathy. Yes, quite true - most of us are not worthy of being scrutinized like this by the federal government. But what if you're, say, a 'dangerous subversive' who is critical of the government? Certain powerful people would be quite interested in doing a little research on you then, wouldn't you agree? And should they be allowed to? Think about it ...
Besides, if your plotting to destroy some building somewhere, why don't you download a good ol' fashioned version of PGP and protect yourself
Yes, if you really are plotting something evil and doing it over the net, you would use something like that, wouldn't you? So doesn't that fact rather defeat the alleged purpose (i.e. combating terrorism) of allowing the government to spy on average people?
If you are doing something that requires you to hide it from the government, your breaking the law, and deserve to be caught.
RED ALERT! RED ALERT! Tell that to the subversives in Soviet Russia or other Ex-Communist countries. Remember, the government is not automatically benevolent. This is why democracies have things like Constitutions and division of power. And they certainly do not have laws that allow indescriminate monitoring of regular people.
Yes, yes, I know all about 9/11 and the horrible tragedy that was inflicted on American then. I am not American myself, so I cannot begin to imagine what it must feel like. But this also gives me the luxury of objectivity. Every American today needs to ask himself: Just who are we protecting ourselves against? And how do we do it? And just how much of what we have gained in the past 200 years are we willing to sacrifice for it?
I hear there's rumors on the Slashdots
Look at how amuck the FBI ran in the 50's amd 60's when they had little oversite. The "enemies" lists, the invasions of personal lives of people who were NOT a threat to the country, etc. I LIKE the fact that the executive branch is beholdent to the judicial for warrants. Some people far smarter than you and I setup the systems of checks and balances and I wish people wouldn't try to muck with it every time there is a small threat to the country, their meddling is FAR more dangerous to republic over the long run.
There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
Gilbert: "There is one difference. In a democracy, the people have some say in the matter through their elected representatives, and in the United States only Congress can declare wars."
Göring: "Oh, that is all well and good, but, voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country.
The owls are not what they seem
That red tape is there for a reason. The Police and other Law enforcement agencies have enormous power, and in a free society that power must be restrained.
Take a look through history, even recent US history. Law enforcement can and do abuse their power. From bashing Vietnam war protestors, to beating up innocent people to extract confessions, Law enforcers are not angels. They are people like everyone else. You consider yourself innocent and that this law will not effect you. You fail to realise that this law and laws like are the exact kinds of restrictions placed on liberties that lead to dictatorships, and that ultimatly will affect you.
If you are one of those people that believe that a dictatorship could never,ever happen in their country, then you should reevaluate your views. Democracies should always remain vigilante against those that would seek to undermine them. Nowhere is immune to the threat of an authoritarian state.
Terrorism presents a threat, only to life and limb. It presents no threat to our freedoms. We have reactionaries and politicians to do that.
May the Maths Be with you!
You are a moron!
Now that its out of the way, let me take this further..
No matter what the Govt, or Fox News tells you, Saddam Hussein was not the gravest threat ever to walk the earth. He was neither the baddest dude alive. Do you have any fucking idea as to whats happening in Africa?? Sudan?? Ethiopia?? Nigeria?? Are you fucking insane or just clueless, like half this country?
Even if you round up the total number of Iraq's citizen this murderous villain had slaughtered, it would still pale in comparison to the number of people who are dying in Africa in the last year. Sudan can easily be compared to Hell, considering the number of men and children who are slaughtered like cattle, women who are raped and killed. Can you even compare the atrocities that happen there every day to what did happen in Iraq?? Ofcourse not.
Then why is it that Bush turns a blind eye to Africa, why is it that Powell after his recent visit to Sudan proudly proclaims that it still hasnt achieved the so called status "Genocide" when we actually care a fuck!! Can you justify their tears, kids with out limbs, with out parents, without shelter and food. Can you justify this travesty in Iraq when a greater threat looms in Sudan threatening to wipe out a country, snuff out a million lives in less than an year??? Where is Bush's God amidst all this? Or does the President listen to his God only when the response meets his needs?? Why proclaim the fact that you are a devoted christian when you turn a blind eye to Africa?
So dont you fucking say that you step in and regulate every now and then..not when it doesnt serve your needs.
Rapid Nirvana
In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
Your representatives' votes are here!
Check out how they voted and let your representative know how you feel about this issue: find yours here (requires knowlege of where you live)
My sentiments exactly. Prove probable cause to a judge and have everyone sign it, which is the way it's been for many years. When my friends investigate my disappearance they can see who was looking for me and what they thought they'd find. When we go to trial the government can show that my civil rights were or were not violated.
Since when are we supposed to not hold the government accountable for their actions?
Developers: We can use your help.
Sometimes, all too often, you're right. But there are some issues I have with your post.
For one thing, the Patriot Act, in a way, shows democracy in action. The American people wanted a swift and comprehensive law to fight terrorism, and they got it. The fact that it takes away people's liberties is a side effect. Now, IMHO, I think that the real danger to America isn't people blowing up buildings - we can rebuild those, but rather the threat to free speech and a nation where people of different backgrounds and beliefs - policitical, social, whatever, I think that its the threat to free speech as presented by the Patriot Act that most threatens America.
Still, despite stories circulating for years about all the scary powers of the Patriot Act, there are still many people in the general populas who support the law. You can argue - and correctly - that they only support it because they don't fully understand its consequences, but that misses the point. In a democracy, its not right and wrong that matter, but what people BELIEVE is right or wrong.
And yes, most recent Presidents HAVE been multi millionaires. On the other hand, I think you could argue that we want our Presidents to be proven successful, capable people, and that in the US today, realistically, most people that we'd consider to be 'successful' are millionaires.
The important thing to note is that they didn't start out that way - Clinton started out every bit the Southern country boy, for example.
If you think that over the course of him bing a Rhodes scholar, Attorney General for Arkansas, Governer for Arkansas and later President of the United States, that he didn't deserve to accumulate a fair bit of wealth (a lot of it has been since his Presidency ended, where he can make $50k speaking or several million for an advance on a book), then you don't understand how most of America characterizes (for better or for worse) 'success'.
Tim
I spent 10 years in the military suposedly protecting your freedom. Thats right you have
thousands of men dodging bullets so that you may
enjoy liberty. I don't have a problem with the govt
doing what they have to for intelligence reasons. The patriot act and all bills like it serve only one purpose, to unconstitutionally short circuit the judicial branch of the govt, now that I have a problem with.
Got Code?
You know it is a little difficult finding examples of this, what with the gag order and all (see Section 215). Still though, here's the primary example offered up by most media outlets, and here's another, more obscure example from my home city.
I'm not tense. I'm just terribly, terribly, alert.
The judicial subpoena system is a good balance of investigative power and accountability by law enforcement, and "investigation of terrorism" is no justification for bypassing this proven system.
You also forgot the balance that has always been given to the people - the right to remove the government when it no longer represents them (Thank god for the second amendment).
The patriot act is nothing more than a collection of unconstitutional provisions that those with the power have wanted to pass for a long time. 9/11 just happened to be a catalyst to make dumb Americans give up their rights....I'd rather die than give the government more control over my life.