USA PATRIOT Act Survives Amendment Attempt

crem_d_genes writes "A bill to modify the USA PATRIOT Act that would have blocked part of the legislation's provisions that allow for the investigation of people's reading habits was defeated by a 210-210 vote in the U.S House of Representives. The House leaders kept the roll call open for 23 minutes past the 15 minute deadline to persuade 10 Representatives to change votes. According to the article 'Rep. Zach Wamp, R-Tenn., said he switched his initial "yes" vote to "no" after being shown Justice Department documents asserting that terrorists have communicated over the Internet via public library computers.' On the other hand, 'Critics of the Patriot Act argued that even without it, investigators can get book store and other records simply by obtaining subpoenas or search warrants.'"

Comments

The 9/11 terrorists also used cars

[foidulus]

but I don't see anyone moving to block them. Seriously, how will this stop terrorists? You can go to walmart.com and get a computer that is quite capable of decent encryption for $200, and maybe an extra $150 or so tops for a monitor. Internet access $20 a month. You can also get a ton of books(in pdf) off of limewire/kazaa/whatever. The terrorists of 9/11 were well financed, I'm sure the billionaire Bin Laden could afford a few thousand worth of computer equipment. All this provision does is help the FBI spy on average people, not terrorists.
*begin rant
Also, what is this BS of people breaking house rules just because they want their law passed. The abuse of procedure here pales in comparison to what happened in the medicare bill. Why do we even have congress anymore? With the rise of political parties(which Washington warned against in his farewell speech), pretty much all the votes are predictable. With a few notable exceptions most congressmen are sheep, toeing the party line..... Maybe if we had some more original thought in congress, stuff like this wouldn't happen end rant

Re:The 9/11 terrorists also used cars

[foidulus]

Please read:
this
this
this
this
and this
Then we will talk.

Re:The 9/11 terrorists also used cars

[Dashing Leech]

And where is the FBI actually using this to spy on 'average people'? And can you come up with any particular reason why they might give a crap about what the 'average person' is reading?

That is irrelevant. It's saying a police state is acceptable if it doesn't inconvenience law abiding citizens. By this argument, the government should be allowed to put cameras in everyone's houses. They won't watch or record most cameras since they won't be interested in viewing the activities of 'average' people.

Freedom isn't just a word, it has meaning. The government cannot "spy" on anyone with out just cause and independent oversight (e.g., judicial review). That's the whole point of keeping the divisions of government separate. It doesn't matter if they intend, or even remotely desire, to spy on 'average' people, the point is that under the PATRIOT act they are legally allowed to. (They alway could do it before, but they could be sued/fired/punished for doing so because it would be illegal.)

Plus, not everything out of 'average' is illegal.

Re:The 9/11 terrorists also used cars

[cHiphead]

No doubt, Kerry is the worst kind of candidate there is, but Bush is still the worst kind of President there is.

I'd rather give Kerry a chance to f-k it up in his own special way than let Bush to CONTINUE f-king it up in his spectacularly inept, lack of statesmanship, idiotic, 3 year old finger pointing way.

cheers.

Re:The 9/11 terrorists also used cars

[k98sven]

Some fundamentalists are certainly intelligent in many respects. However, one common trait for all of them is the lack of critical thinking and/or imparired jugement.
So while not all of them are unintelligent, all of them do have some 'blind spots' to their intelligence, since most of us would include critical capabilities and sound judgement to be important parts of what we call 'intelligence'.

Studying theology (or mythology) requires genuine scholarship (which in turn requires intelligence), regardless of the validity of the religion being studied or if the person believes in the tenants of the religion they are studying

While I don't disagree with this, the implication that fundamentalists are scholars is wrong. Genuine scholarship implies a critical distance and deep understanding of one's subject, not just a lot of knowledge. Indeed, if you look around at religious fanatics around the world, most of them are laymen, and have not studied theology at an academic level.
(Whereas most of those preists who have do not advocate literal interpretations)

Re:The 9/11 terrorists also used cars

[Melantha_Bacchae]

An AC wrote:

If you live in the USA, you are completely full of crap. If the USA is so bad, why don't you either leave or take up arms against this government that is so terribly evil?

Maybe because we are patriotic citizens who love what our country is supposed to stand for, and take peaceful action to change our government so it is more in line with those ideals?

9/11 and the corruption in our government are not two separate things, they are the two sides of the same coin. US foreign policy has done great harm in the Middle East, especially its policy regarding Israel, and the economic sanctions against Iraq (which killed a half a million children). Mounting anger in the Middle East fuels terrorism, and our government uses this to justify the Patriot Act, the rights violations perpetrated in the name of the "War on Terror", and to excuse the invasion of Iraq and torture of Iraqi (and probably other) prisoners. Which fuels more anger, more terrorism, and more excuses to turn the US into a fascist nightmare (complete with happy corporations raking in the gold). And the nightmare spreads outward, with repressive governments (like Egypt) using the name and techniques of Abu Graibe to terrorize their own citizenry. This is just another version of your garden variety cycle of violence, just like you get in cases of child abuse where abused children grow up to abuse their own. The only difference is the greed and power lust of Mongol King George, and maybe that isn't that much of a difference.

On the path that it is on, our government can never hope to end terrorism. It will only learn how to effectively terrorize its own citizens. Our founders offered a different path: with checks and balances to keep our government in line, and the kind of respect for the independence of other countries that would allow us to make peace with all the peoples of the Middle East, thereby depriving the terrorists of the hatred and anger that fuels them. Without popular support, terrorists become unpopular criminals that anyone would turn in.

On a practical note: if you are a US citizen, check out who waffled and who firmly supported the Patriot Act. This vote conveniently happened right before an election. Take advantage of that, and vote these people out of office. The veto they should be worried about is yours, not the President's.

Here is a favorite quote of mine. It is part of a wiser president's speech to the House of Representatives. Why is he wiser? His dad invented the first set of laws that we now call the "Patriot Act". The son learned how to really be president from one Thomas Jefferson:

She [America] well knows that by once enlisting under other banners than her own, were they even the banners of foreign independence, she would involve herself beyond the power of extrication, in all the wars of interest and intrigue, of individual avarice, envy, and ambition, which assume the colors and usurp the standard of freedom.

The fundamental maxims of her policy would insensibly change from liberty to force....

She might become the dictatress of the world. She would be no longer the ruler of her own spirit....

President John Quincy Adams' speech to the U.S. House of Representatives on July 4, 1821.

And They Are Us

[treehouse]

How ironic it is that a law which allows the government to keep track of reading habits (let alone our surfing habits), is called a Patriot Act. Not long ago, countries such as Communist Russia were considered un-American because they practiced such invasion of privacy. Now the right wing, who fought so vigorously in the past against such "Communist" practices are their strongest defenders in this country today.

Re:And They Are Us

[4of12]

who fought so vigorously in the past against such "Communist" practices

Right wing ideologues are seduced by authoritarianism just as much as the old Stalinist left ever was.

What the right really feared about "Communism" was the attack on property rights of people who owned a lot of property; the concern for civils rights was a facade.

Now, with the Republicans abandoning fiscal conservatism (cf. latest budget deficit numbers), it's hard to find much of anything left to like about them anymore.

Re:And They Are Us

[gowen]

I don't know about you, but I do not have any fear of being woken up in the middle of the night, thrown into a van, and being shipped off to some Siberian gulag

And you're right. Because the US doesn't have gulags in cold Siberia. They have temporary detention facilities in sunny Cuba.

But don't worry, they still don't have to give you a trial, or legal representation, or follow the Geneva convention. Not to mention the lovely treatment you might expect at Abu Ghraib...

Old Ben said it best

[garver]

Those willing to give up a little liberty for a little security deserve neither security nor liberty.
- Benjamin Franklin

Arrrrghhhh!!

[Anonymous Coward]

According to the article 'Rep. Zach Wamp, R-Tenn., said he switched his initial "yes" vote to "no" after being shown Justice Department documents asserting that terrorists have communicated over the Internet via public library computers.'

When will they understand that computers are simply tools? Would they be up in arms if they found out that terrorists use public transport to meet each other? Would there be draconian restrictions on who can board the subway?

Re:whats the problem with the patriot act?

[mattbot 5000]

how has the patriot act directly affected you?

Oh come on. How has any piece of legislation "directly affected" you? Sure, no one's come to my door to arrest me citing the Patriot Act, but then again, they sure could if they wanted to go through my library records and think I'm a national security threat.

It's not about whether the Patriot Act has "directly affected" you, it's about the gradual erosion of your civil liberties this Act affords.

And do you think there would be big front page stories if there were cases of abuse of the Act? Of course not. Just because you haven't heard about it doesn't mean it isn't going on.

America beware

[imogthe]

I suppose this is just an indication of things to come. From my strongly euro-centric point of view the United States of America is about to become either a dictatorship or a police state... that is unless the American people wake up and smell the corruption and blatant abuse of power by their elected(?) leaders.
Best of luck to you. You're going to need it.

And no, at the moment the European Union is just as bad, if not worse. We're doomed :)

Re:whats the problem with the patriot act?

[PalmerEldritch42]

there haven't been any cases of abuse

You've got to be kidding me. Just because you haven't heard of any abuse of the PATRIOT act hardly means that it hasn't happened.

Also, in order to see what the repercusions of a law are, you have to think it through to the extremes. It is easily possible to abuse this rule. When I was younger, I was interested in all sorts of things. Like the Anarchist's Cookbook and others that contained recipes for bombs and other lethal items. Now, I am a good person who doesn't blow people up. But I wouldn't want to be hauled into jail without a trial and without even a search warrant because I had something that Ashcroft doesn't like. And since I was a minor at the time, my parents would have had to face all sorts of legal repercusions as well.

I mean is it really that hard to get a warrant? A phone call to a judge and they can do whatever they want legally. That is part of the checks and balances that this country is founded on. No part of the government can be prosecutor, judge, jury, and executioner. At least that is how I was lead to understand it in civics class.

if you don't want to be spied upon, then don't do suspicious things

I don't want to be spied on and I don't do suspicios things. I do attend the local library. That hardly makes me a terrorist, but apparently it is enough to flag the PATRIOT boys into thinking that I am more worthy of attention than my illiterate friends.

House rules were not broken

[konekoniku]

Actually, house rules were not broken. As I noted below, 15 minutes was originally scheduled for the vote, but the floor rules of the House permit such a period of time to be extended. What was done was fully within house rules. It's a simple lesson: don't trust slashdot writeups for all your information - look up the house rules yourself, or at least find a more reputable source.

What Göring had to say about this

[October_30th]

Hermann Göring: "Why, of course, the people don't want war. Why would some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best that he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece. Naturally, the common people don't want war; neither in Russia nor in England nor in America, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy or a fascist dictatorship or a Parliament or a Communist dictatorship."

Gilbert: "There is one difference. In a democracy, the people have some say in the matter through their elected representatives, and in the United States only Congress can declare wars."

Göring: "Oh, that is all well and good, but, voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country.

AAARRRGGGGHHH...

[cOdEgUru]

You are a moron!

Now that its out of the way, let me take this further..

No matter what the Govt, or Fox News tells you, Saddam Hussein was not the gravest threat ever to walk the earth. He was neither the baddest dude alive. Do you have any fucking idea as to whats happening in Africa?? Sudan?? Ethiopia?? Nigeria?? Are you fucking insane or just clueless, like half this country?

Even if you round up the total number of Iraq's citizen this murderous villain had slaughtered, it would still pale in comparison to the number of people who are dying in Africa in the last year. Sudan can easily be compared to Hell, considering the number of men and children who are slaughtered like cattle, women who are raped and killed. Can you even compare the atrocities that happen there every day to what did happen in Iraq?? Ofcourse not.

Then why is it that Bush turns a blind eye to Africa, why is it that Powell after his recent visit to Sudan proudly proclaims that it still hasnt achieved the so called status "Genocide" when we actually care a fuck!! Can you justify their tears, kids with out limbs, with out parents, without shelter and food. Can you justify this travesty in Iraq when a greater threat looms in Sudan threatening to wipe out a country, snuff out a million lives in less than an year??? Where is Bush's God amidst all this? Or does the President listen to his God only when the response meets his needs?? Why proclaim the fact that you are a devoted christian when you turn a blind eye to Africa?

So dont you fucking say that you step in and regulate every now and then..not when it doesnt serve your needs.

Re:Okay okay you're right, you're right!!!

[Schmendr1ck]

I catch the sarcasm here, but you're making a REALLY good point. The biggest single problem with the PATRIOT Act is that we have almost no way of knowing when or if our government is abusing it. Because of the gag provisions riddled through the law, your librarian could get arrested for telling you that the FBI stopped by and asked for a list of books you have read recently.

The judicial subpoena system is a good balance of investigative power and accountability by law enforcement, and "investigation of terrorism" is no justification for bypassing this proven system.

Re:Okay okay you're right, you're right!!!

[dthable]

You also forgot the balance that has always been given to the people - the right to remove the government when it no longer represents them (Thank god for the second amendment).

The patriot act is nothing more than a collection of unconstitutional provisions that those with the power have wanted to pass for a long time. 9/11 just happened to be a catalyst to make dumb Americans give up their rights....I'd rather die than give the government more control over my life.