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A Six-Step Plan for Apple

An anonymous reader writes "Open letter from Alex Salkever to Jobs. One thing in particular strikes me: 'The latest round of attacks on Microsoft software is terrifying. If using a Mac means servers in Russia are less likely to harvest my passwords and offer my identity to the highest bidder, I think that's an offer I'd like to hear more about.' I think he's got something there."

32 of 773 comments (clear)

  1. Let's not forget... by terraformer · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Macs are not immune either...
    As I type from within one I must say!

    --
    Who are you? The new #2 Who is #1? You are #617565. I am not a number, I am a free man! Muhahaha.
    1. Re:Let's not forget... by afish40 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      It's not just security through obscurity. To install any new application in Mac OS X (as I imagine it is in Unix), the admin password must be input. Windows does not have this extra safeguard.

      --
      Thanks a million. Push Start to replay.
    2. Re:Let's not forget... by rusty0101 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      And this is well bourn out by the evidence with regards to attacks on web servers. As has been well documented, IIS servers have been vulnerable at various times to several well known viruses, which have been able to spread themselves to other IIS web servers.

      It is a well known factoid that IIS web servers provide the vast majority of the content available on the Internet. As a result they have been targeted by virus writers and script kiddies the world over for attacks.

      On the other hand there is an open source web server that has a very low volume of sales, known as Apache, that because it provides such a low volume of the content of the Internet, has remained of little interest to virus writers and script kiddies.

      Should Apache ever take off and become popular, it is likely that it will become a significant target of attack.

      What's that you say? Apache actually serves more than half the content of the Internet? Damn! There goes this bit of evidence.

      -Rusty

      --
      You never know...
    3. Re:Let's not forget... by arieswind · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It might be a bit more secure, but remember that there is no 100% secure program. If 95% of the world was using macs, I guarantee they will find bugs, and they will exploit them. Its only a matter of time.

    4. Re:Let's not forget... by scoser · · Score: 5, Insightful

      But still, social engineering will allow viruses to get installed even with the password safety, because Joe User loves "free celebrity screensavers!!!" and will happily enter the password to install them.

    5. Re:Let's not forget... by bizard · · Score: 5, Insightful

      That is such a tired, over-simplified, and patently false rant I'm surprised it rates an insightful...Yes, lower market share will result in fewer exploits. But giving half a thought to basic security precautions will too. Between the two of them you end up with an operating system which currently has 0 viruses in the wild and very few exploits which affect the default installation.

      It is also inane to suggest that all of a sudden, everyone will switch to a mac and suddenly get viruses. The point is that with a diversified eco-system (linux, freeBSD, Solaris, MacOS, Windows, etc.) all using different client and server software, the threat potential goes down for everyone because it makes it that much harder for a worm or virus to spread.

      Explain how Apache is the most popular web server, and yet the server which gets holed by worms on a regular basis is IIS

    6. Re:Let's not forget... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      They'll find bugs, but let's face it, Microsoft cut corners when designing the security in Windows. Replacing it with any system that was designed by people who care about security is going to be better, bugs or no bugs.

      That whole IE Zones thing has got to go, every other exploit seems to work by confusing IE into think it's the local machine zone. This is a badly designed security mechanism, and it's just the tip of the iceberg of very poor decisions made by Microsoft.

    7. Re:Let's not forget... by arieswind · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Who knows? stranger things have happened, and besides, never is such a strong word... theoretically... what if microsoft turns out to be another enron? certainly unlikely, but not impossible

    8. Re:Let's not forget... by ThousandStars · · Score: 4, Insightful
      No mature industry has a single company holding 95% of the market.

      Correct -- providing that one company does not hold a stranglehold over the marketplace.

      But even so, I think the seeds of Microsoft's destruction have long been sown. Their prices are too high and their movement too slow. Today I think the best developers and computer scientists work on open-source software, which is often portable. From there I think the great generalized applications of tomorrow will spring.

      Although I hate to sound like a buzzword bullhorn, I think Linux will ultimately prove to be less expensive, more flexible, expandable, and all-encompassing: one can run it on the servers, the clients and the portable devices, and run it seemlessly without regard to lisencing costs. Those seeds I mentioned earlier are still saplings, but unlike commericial competitors Microsoft cannot kill them by purchase or by might alone.

      One can see this occuring already in the third and first worlds, and among cost-conscious businesses. This is coming from someone typing on an XP box using Mozilla (Linux does not suit my needs -- yet), but I think the mists of future show a world far more open than the one today.

  2. confusing design and technology by lawpoop · · Score: 5, Insightful
    "You say the iPod, priced from $250 to nearly $500, proves that Apple can charge a premium for superior design. I disagree. What makes the iPod so hot in the consumer market is superior technology -- the first workable user interface on a digital music player. That's the reason why the premium has stuck, not the nifty form factor or funky colors.

    Do you think that when Apple talks about 'superior design', they aren't talking about color, but the OS and user interface? When Alex says 'technology', and Apple says 'design', I think they are talking about the same thing.

    People don't pay premium prices because of a Mac's color, or shape, but for the OS and interface. They expect the nice 'design' (in the "looks-nice" sense) because of the premium price, but are not paying premium solely for its looks.

    --
    Computers are useless. They can only give you answers.
    -- Pablo Picasso
    1. Re:confusing design and technology by kabrakan · · Score: 5, Insightful

      True dat with a wiffle ball bat. I spend lots of time on all kinds of OS's and I like the macintosh the msot because i don't have to worry about getting the computer to work, i only have to worry about my own problems. Unless you're so inclined, a computer is a tool, not a hobby.

      --
      Slartibartfast:"Is that your robot?"
      Marvin:"No, I'm mine."
  3. Oh nice! I was getting worried! by ScottGant · · Score: 4, Insightful

    It's been a few months since we've had a self-styled "expert" come along and tell Apple what their doing wrong and how they can fix it, else they will shrivel up and die.

    Story contains the same thing over and over and over and over we've heard now for what...20 years now? Lower their prices, focus on what they do best, lower their prices and lower their prices.

    The only thing new here is focus on security, which seems like a good thing to focus on, but only if Apple can TRUELY deliver a resonably secure system. Hopefully they can.

    But it's good to see some things never die, like these articles that try to show Apple the error of their ways.

    --

    "Music is everybody's possession. It's only publishers who think that people own it." - John Lennon.
    1. Re:Oh nice! I was getting worried! by wizbit · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Mod parent up. Why is it everyone thinks they know better when it comes to Apple? I'm sure the guy didn't intend for this to be a Dvorak article, but aren't we talking about a multi-billion dollar company that just completely sold out its initial stock of iPod Minis? Think there aren't a hundred Fortune 500 companies that would love to trade places with Apple? You'd be wrong.

    2. Re:Oh nice! I was getting worried! by Chief+Typist · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Normally, I'd agree with this sentiment. But, on page 2 of the article, there were a couple of good ideas.

      One of the barriers for switchers is financial: they have peripherals, software and other things that they won't be able to bring from Wintel to the Mac.

      Adding a financial incentive to switch is, IMHO, much better than the current "it makes your life easier" approach (look at the switcher ads and they all have this common theme.)

      Also, the "test drive" suggestion is really good -- spending some quality time with a Mac is the best way to fall in love with it. The Apple Stores are a great environment to try the product out, but it pales in comparison to the comfort of your living room.

      Such a promotion would also drive foot traffic into the Apple Stores -- always a good thing from a retail point-of-view.

      -ch

  4. Re:apple? by arieswind · · Score: 5, Insightful

    It may not be the only alternative in existence, but it is the only real alternative for all the grandmothers, and computer incompetents in the world. As much as you linux zealots hate to admit it, Linux is not the most user friendly OS to install and use. If all they want to do (or know how to do) is email, IM and download pictures off their cameras, they really don't need the flexibility Linux(or variants) gives them. Apple is similar to MS in the fact that pretty much anyone can install a mac and pick it up and use it without many problems

  5. Test Drive a Macintosh by Lord+Grey · · Score: 4, Insightful
    5) Sell that soap II
    Why not offer all Mac buyers a try-and-buy program much like what some Apple resellers are offering to purchasers of high-end Xserve units. The geeks who fork over $3,000 or so for the Xserve can have a couple of weeks to test-drive these babies, depending on the vendor. If they aren't satisfied, they can return them and get a full refund. That's unheard of in the computer business.

    I believe such a tactic with iMacs and iBooks would play well, too. Show Joe Schmo's ma, who wants to use the PC only to see pictures of her grandson, how much you care about her. Show her how much confidence you have in your products. And aren't they way better looking than a Dell? Everyone already knows what a Mac is, as evidenced by Apple's consistently sky-high brand-recognition ratings. Take it to the next level.

    Way back in the mid-80's Apple sponsored "Test Drive a Macintosh" -- a way to get people to play around with the revolutionary computer. Potential customers took home the computer in a tote bag and got to see everything they would get if they bought it (manuals, OS on floppies, MacPaint, MacWrite). They got to keep the computer for 24 or 48 hours (I forget which). In the little Apple dealership I worked in at the time, it was a huge success. We saw something like an 80% sell-through rate, just from that program.

    So, my gut reflex was that this program would be a good idea. But then again, 2004 isn't the mid-80's. Back then, the program was a great idea because virtually no one knew about Macintosh. Now, you would be hard-pressed to find someone that doesn't know a Macintosh owner. These potential converts already have a "test drive" program: They just go over to their friend's house. And Macintosh owners have no shortage of enthusiasm for showing off their computer....

    --
    // Beyond Here Lie Dragons
  6. Err... by avalys · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Offer a $200 bounty on a PC exchanged for a new iMac or iBook. Buyers get the $200 discount only if they bring a PC that's two years old or less. And they must have a valid receipt.

    What an stupid idea. All but the crappiest two-year-old computers are still worth more than $200, especially laptops. Only a complete idiot would take advantage of that offer.

    --
    This space intentionally left blank.
    1. Re:Err... by gurps_npc · · Score: 4, Insightful
      You are ignoring the effort numbers. It takes effort to find a buyer for your two year old computer.

      That is why most companies give them to charity - it is easier to do that then to sell them.

      If you go to a computer reseller instead of an end-user, chances are he won't offer you more than $200 for a two year old computer.

      --
      excitingthingstodo.blogspot.com
  7. He's just another sheep by danaris · · Score: 5, Insightful

    His first 4 recommendations are basically to be like everyone else:

    1. Make Macs low-margin
    2. Make them "cheap chic" (see #1)
    3. No more all-in-one
    4. Sell high-volume, low-price (see #1)

    So basically, he's another of those people who thinks that, of course, Steve must be trying to maximize his market share at the expense of everything else! And, of course, the best way to do that is to make Macs cheap, like Dells. Because Dell sells a lot of units! ....Which is true. But it's not the point.

    Apple's purpose is not to maximize marketshare but to maximize money. They do that by selling with high margins. Removing the high margins would make Apple unable to function, basically. They are not another assemble and resell outfit. They are not another Dell.

    Why do so few people realize that?

    As for making a headless "iMac," first, that wouldn't be an iMac, and second, that's not what Apple needs. They have a whole bunch of headless machines--what the heck do you think a PowerMac is??? And if I'm not mistaken, the PowerMacs come with iLife installed. So....he wants them to make a PowerMac. Yay! They're already doing that!

    Why do people keep insisting that the way for Apple to dominate the market is to become another low-margin box-assembler? They're doing just fine the way they are. They're not in any trouble. Their stock price is higher than it's been in years--granted, it was higher a couple of weeks ago, but it always rises before and tanks after a major show.

    My six steps for Apple?

    1. Come out with something really cool for the new iMac
    2. Sell it for the same price as the current iMac
    3. Keep doing what you've been doing
    4. Profit
    5. Profit???
    6. Profit!!!

    Dan Aris

    --
    Fun. Free. Online. RPG. BattleMaster.
  8. Re:apple? by throck2000 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    True, grandmothers do not need the "flexibility" offered by linux. But if all they are doing is email, IM, and downloading pictures off of a camera it sure is a much less expensive option than an iMac. Once they have linux installed by their grandson, it will run itself.

    Maybe I'm just a cheap bastard though.

  9. Re:apple? by solios · · Score: 5, Insightful

    They are if you want to run photoshop, illustrator, Macromedia products.... if you need Office for whatever reason. If you do video.

    For the Creative Professional, your options are the Mac, which gets out of your way, and Windows, which goes out of your way to get in your way, but is so stupidly cheap and ubiquitous that the vast majority of young / struggling artists go with it.

    Adobe dropped Photoshop for IRIX a long time back, and there's no comprable solution for Professional Image Editing.

    (save the Gimp arguments, I've heard them. :-| The Gimp is getting useable but the Gimp is still Not Photoshop.)

  10. The man has a point by Macka · · Score: 4, Insightful


    I have a couple of friends (Ely and Annette) who've been brought to their knees with security intrusions into their MS PC. They're both very ordinary people with ordinary jobs and neither of them are particularly computer literate, and treat their PC very much like any other home appliance. They don't read computer publications or news bulletins, so they mostly remain unaware of the latest security holes, only discovering they should have updated something when their PC starts misbehaving.

    They're totally sick of the computing experience they've had so far. So when I popped in to see them one day I took my PowerBook with me and spent a few hours showing them what it could do. They were really impressed, but what totally got their attention was when I told them I didn't need to run any anti-virus software because a) there are no known viruses out the for Mac OS X, and b) the system is inherently more secure than MS Windows by design. Right away they wanted to know where they could get one and how much it would cost.

    (NB: My domain/mail hosting company anti-virus scans all email for me, so I'm still being a good neighbor to my MS using friends)

    I showed them the range, asked them some questions about their budget, and then advised them to get an eMac because that best suited what they could afford. But they didn't want a large CRT based system and were really taken with the iMac design.

    That was 4 months ago. They've still not updated their PC and still haven't' brought a Mac. The reason why? They just can't afford it at the moment. Various other things keep cropping up in their lives and home that stop them from accumulating enough cash to buy the system they want.

    Apple really needs to cut the prices. If they can't do it on existing systems, then they need to produce a bare bones design that can initially be pitched at those people with smaller budgets, and then later expanded and upgraded if people need the extra functionality.

    I'm a Mac switcher of 2 years who has no intention of going back. And I've met SO many people in that time who've never seen a Mac up close before and have left, lusting after mine when they see up close and personal just how good it is. But they're always put off by the perceived high price. I know that you get so much more for your money with a Mac, but it seems difficult for people to relate to that (don't ask me why).

    This is a bullet that Apple are just going to have to bite on if they want to grow their market share some more. Do they have the corporate courage and desire to make this happen? Time will tell, but I sure hope so.

  11. Open letter to Maurizio Parlato by hackstraw · · Score: 4, Insightful
    To: Maurizio Parlato, Ferrari North America CEO
    From: Joe (You know who I am)
    Re: Expanding the Ferrari market

    Dude. You don't sell that many cars. .......

    Here is my "Six Steps to a Bigger Ferrari Market."

    1) Price trumps style in the car market

    I know this may be hard to admit for a guy as innovative and design-conscious as you. But Ferrari charges too much for its cars. The car market's benchmark price level is sinking quickly below the $21,000 mark -- turf where Ferrari has been loath to tread. ....

    2) Make 'em cool and cheap

    You've been to Target (TGT ), right? You probably seen the terrific product designs such as well-known architect Michael Graves' line of stylish housewares -- offered a budget prices. Heck, Blue Light Specials at Kmart (KMRT ) haven't been the same since Martha Stewart's line of kitchen gear, sheets, and towels hit the aisles several years ago. Dumpster-diving debutantes can't get enough of them. Even sportswear designer Mossimo makes great threads for fiscal lightweights.

    We're in the era of cheap chic, Maurizio. And I have no doubt that Ferrari can play that game with the best of them. Give us a really cheap, really cool car, and watch them fly off the lots.

    Comment:Yeah, you should be more like Martha Stewart. I'm sure that Michael Graves is also much more successful than you by selling trinkets at Target.


    3) Ditch the all-in-one mantra

    Your expensive convertable sports cars have never taken off compared to sedans. You should make sedans.

    OK, thats enough you get the point.

    This guy is a fucking idiot.
  12. Re:apple? by hackstraw · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Stop crying and buy a Mac. I mean, your already up to 2 computers with 2 different OSes to "surf the web". Within 10-20 minutes of powering on your mac you can "surf the web" and not have these problems.

    Sheesh, do you also use 2 cars in tandem because one is always broken? It never ceases to amaze me how many people's intelligence gets halved when they are behind a computer.

  13. This man is a fool by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Has anyone RTFA? This guy is a complete loon. "If Apple only charged me less, gave me a trade-in on my uselessly outdated PC hardware, didn't charge me until I had had the computer for a while, and didn't try to bundle everything together, they'd be doing much better!"

    No, they wouldn't, you idiot. They'd be dell. Apple's bundling allows them to hide how much they charge for commodities like RAM and hard drives. Their high prices let them survive with a small marketshare (R&D is NOT CHEAP!). This is what makes the company what it is.

    I own an iBook. It cost me $1200 or so. PC laptops are probably cheaper. I would never, in a million years, bother with one. The iBook was worth every dollar because of its fantastic software, ease of programming (yes, that's key for me), reliability, good tech support (remember, you don't just buy an iBook, you buy an Apple), small size, durabilitiy, battery life, and a million other things I won't even mention.

    Apple knows what is best for Apple. They have known what is best for Apple for a long time, which is why they continue to have large amounts of money. This guy does not know what is best for Apple. Of course, looking back, that should elicit nothing but "Duh?"

  14. Good point, but one flaw in logic by mactari · · Score: 4, Insightful

    they dont have much of a market share, so hackers dont spend that much time making viruses for them.

    The lack of viruses was almost bad enough that I thought I should write a virus that'd execute on the Mac just to say we'd had a good one (other than that silly "bootable CD" scare under OS 8-9). It's not like it'd really take any time. Most viruses seem to be ones that people are silly enough to click on in their email to start the infection. You'd have a harder time writing one that exploited a flaw [without taking that extra time finding one, which is where the real genius comes in, of course], but just so that Mac OS X could say there was one, I thought I'd hack a quick REALbasic or Java or Applescript dohicky and "socially engineer" it to look all clickable in an email sent from the infected box. Heck, I get enough free spamable addresses in the spam I get myself these days even finding the first few hundred hosts wouldn't be a problem.

    But your position then is something akin to malaria in someone with sickle cell -- you have to find enough hosts, not only initially but continually, to keep you alive to keep finding more hosts. Without them, you die out.

    How many Mac users themselves have a large percentage of Mac users in their address book? Most of my friends use Windows. Even if I got a few Mac users to click and execute an application-virus, giving me pretty free reign on their system, what are the chances that sending the bugger to every email I could cull off their system would keep the outbreak alive? I've got to think pretty small.

    So there's more to a virus than just lack of hackers -- what's the payout, even for a good virus? Pretty small as long as, as the original post points out, the market share is too.

    Which brings us to...

    If everyone gets the same idea to move to a mac, virus wirters will shift their attention to macs. ... and a good flaw in the OS. You've got two choices to write a good virus, as I've pointed out. Either socially engineer something that looks clickable and start sending out spam, finding enough suckers that click to keep things going, or find a flaw in the OS to exploit to save on social engineering. So either the numbers have to be massively high, as you point out, or you have to have a virus that infects passively, as all the great viruses do.

    I'm not saying the Mac doesn't have these flaws -- nor that it doesn't. But OS X'd have to have the flaw in addition to the market share to really cause the havoc Windows has.

    --

    It's all 0s and 1s. Or it's not.
  15. Keep this man away from my AAPL by realinvalidname · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I bought AAPL at 21, it's at 30 today. Get this dumb-ass away from my portfolio.

    Seriously, every couple of months we get another MBA-bot posting his (never her) Grand Unified Plan for "saving" Apple, usually based on dumb ideas that have already failed (competing against Dell on price - look how well that went for eMachines and Gateway), are failing (tablet PC's do everything users want... really shittily), or are obviously going to fail (taunt virus/worm writers and script kiddies with boasts of Mac's invulerability).

    Enough of the madness. Seven years ago, Wired ran a piece called 100 Ways to Save Apple, most of which were stupid (#76, "Make damn sure Rhapsody runs on an Intel chip"), fucking stupid (#81, "Merge with Sega"), or so fucking stupid it blocks out the sun (#61, "Ink a promotion/development deal with Shaquille O'Neal"). The item that looks best in retrospect is #101: "Don't worry. You'll survive. It's Netscape we should really worry about."

    Slashdot and other sites with a collective IQ greater than that of a turnip should pass on these articles in the future. They're utterly garbage, have been for 20 years, and probably will be in another 20.

    --realinvalidname

  16. Re:Self defeating by Jord · · Score: 4, Insightful
    Congratulations!!!

    Statements like that are proof positive that those hard working FUD machines can be successful!

    Don't you feel proud!

  17. Re:Perpetual Marketshare? by polyp2000 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Ask yourself this question...

    Where would Apple be now if it wasnt for OSX?

    My guess is that OSX has redefined the Mac in many ways and opened up new avenues that simply werent viable before. I see Apple growing; and if they dont; open source will keep them alive.

    --
    Electronic Music Made Using Linux http://soundcloud.com/polyp
  18. Didn't work for Sun... by GPLDAN · · Score: 4, Insightful

    McNealy would go to convention after convention and other speaking engagements. He would go off on the Microsoft rant, talking about no viruses in Java and go on and on about the evils.

    It did nothing, changed nothing. He lost more and more mindshare until he got bought off to stick around on life support and keep his mouth shut.

    Jobs is smarter than McNealy. He won't push Apple marketshare by basing Microsft security, and he knows it. He will do it by expanding what Apple's are. By going heavily into the portable computing space, making ergonomically pleasing Apple appliances, under the iBook, iPod and other product iMonikers. Video playback, capturing, music players. He knows to become strong, his competition is not Microsoft, but Sony. There is nothing to be gained by jumping on the open source bandwagon, there is much money to be made in licensing content distribution methods.

    If I'm a distinguished engineer at Apple (and I'm not) I would be working on a movie projector that can download films in Quicktime format and display them with the quality of movie film projectors. I hook these projectors up to theater chains with broadband, and start competing with Sony, who invented this technology but only have penetrated a limited market with it.

    But, hey what do I know...

  19. comparing ipods to OSes by sacrilicious · · Score: 4, Insightful
    Two back to back paragraphs in this article got substantially different reactions from me:
    You say the iPod, priced from $250 to nearly $500, proves that Apple can charge a premium for superior design. I disagree. What makes the iPod so hot in the consumer market is superior technology -- the first workable user interface on a digital music player. That's the reason why the premium has stuck, not the nifty form factor or funky colors.
    Agreed, basically. Wouldn't have called it the 'first workable interface', but I admit it was better than the others when I last surveyed them.
    Yes, Apple's operating system has some ease-of-use advantages compared to Windows XP. But Windows offers enough convenience for most people at a lower price. That's why it holds such a dominant market share.
    Disagreed; this argument sweeps too much under the rug. When it comes to computers, people are not shopping price and features with the same willingness to jump vendors as they are when shopping mp3 players. If considering a switch from XP to Mac or vise versa, there is a *tremendous* hurdle for mom-n-pop consumers to contemplate regarding whether their existing software will continue to work, whether they'll be able to grasp the similar-yet-different conventions for UI, whether they'll get tech support from passersby, etc.
    --
    - First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then ???, then profit.
  20. 3 steps for telling apple what to do by mosb1000 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I know this is probably too late to be posting this, but here goes:

    Step 1: State that Apple's small market share is a sure sign of impending doom.

    Step 2: Suggest that apples competitors have the right idea and that Apple should also make low cost, shitty computers that crap out in a couple months just like everyone else.

    Step 3: Complain that apple won't sell you a really cheap computer like you want them to, point out several other complains that make shitty products and again state that Apple should do the same.

    I've been hearing this crap like this for more than 10 years, and I'm only 22. I can't believe that pompous assholes like this continue to believe that they know how to run the company better than Apple. People are always complaining "why can't I buy an Apple for the price of a Packard Bell/ Compaq / Dell?". I'll tell you why, those companies make shitty computers and Apple makes quality computers, that's why. And you know what? Apples plan worked a lot better than did Packard Bells or Compaqs(both bought out when they hit hard times). That fact is that business plan only works until everyone has bought one and realized how crappie the computers are. I'm sure that Dell will eventually suffer the same fate, I know about a dozen people that have Dells, and none of them are happy with their purchase. On the other hand, Apple users love their computers, and will continue to be loyal to the Apple brand as long as they live. To bad they only replace their computers every 5 years or so.