Why Offshore When Canada's Next Door?

Roblimo writes "A study by accounting and consulting giant PriceWaterhouseCoopers claims Canada could lose up to 75,000 IT jobs by 2010 to offshore outsourcing, but could also *gain* 165,000 jobs through U.S. outsourcing contracts. The trick is, according to this story at IT Manager's Journal, that while Indian, Chinese, and Russian programmers may cost 80% less than U.S. programmers, the time zone, language, legal, and other problems involved with sending work half way around the world can eat up much of the labor savings, while Canadian programmers are nearby, speak English with nearly American accents, have a similar culture and legal system, and get paid 40% less than U.S. programmers. Might be time to think about moving North, eh?"

Comments

Well, I'm one example

[FractusMan]

I work for MSN - MSN which is not offered in Canada, but most of the tech support sites (or so it seems) are located here in Canada.

And get paid 40% less? No thanks.

[gurps_npc]

I am not willing to move north to get a job that pays 40% less than what is available here. I'd rather work outside my field.

Re:And get paid 40% less? No thanks.

[Grey Ninja]

As a Canadian, I have to say that I'm not here for the money. Yeah, it's a little disturbing that I get paid much less than an American does, but it doesn't bother me THAT much. What really matters to me is that I get paid to do something that I enjoy. And I happen to really enjoy the practice of programming. I will go to where I can get the job I will enjoy the most, regardless of pay, so long as I have enough to take care of myself.

Re:And get paid 40% less? No thanks.

[madprogrammer]

Exactly... My guess is that that "40% less" is not 40% less than all states... just the ones that pay a lot, like California.

But since the cost of living is so high in L.A. and San Fran things start to work out. From what I've seen living in both countries is that dollar for dollar many items are the same price or at least close. An American $499 Dell is Canadian $550. An American $2.00 loaf of bread is $1.00 Canadian.

My standard of living will not be changing too much when I move from the States to Canada. Even though I'm taking a pay cut.

Re:And get paid 40% less? No thanks.

[Dr Caleb]

KPMG (the accounting firm) rated Edmonton as the #1 place to live in the western hemisphere as far as quality of living, tax levels, housing prices and job market.

It's no wonder why we're home to Bioware, Quicken, and large support centers for General Electric and Hewlett Packard.

Re:And get paid 40% less? No thanks.

[ViolentGreen]

What really matters to me is that I get paid to do something that I enjoy.

Yes. That truely is what matters. Am I correct in supposing the cost of living in Canada is similar to that of the Northern US? I'm sure it is significantly less then tech-heavy places like California.

If US companies are considering outsourcing to Canada, it seems like they could try other places in the US where they could hire people for less then in California or NY.

I live in Lexington, Ky which, despite being in a state with an agriculture based economy, has a fairly large tech community. Some big name companies here are IBM and Lexmark (LEXmark LEXington.) I read somewhere where Lexington is ranked 9th in US cities in percentages of persons with at least a Bachelors degree. It's a city where you can live lavishly or have a quiet and comfortable life. Hey, I've even seen Shatner in a coffee shop here.

I think there are still lots of opportunities in the US before the Canada route is taken. There are places other then the West Coast available for programming/tech jobs.

Re:And get paid 40% less? No thanks.

[pszuch]

I had to register just to rebutt the safety comment here. While NYC has done a remarkable job in lowering its crime rate (down 80% in a few years), it is still nowhere near Toronto. The five boroughs murder rate of 70/million is still 3x higher than torontos 24/million. The same holds true for the national averages. http://www.primetimecrime.com/Recent/Sun%20BC%20ra nks.htm

Always a good thing

[dsanfte]

As a Canadian in the IT industry, I'd be glad to see more jobs coming here, definitely. There really is very little difference between Americans and Canadians, besides cultural and political systems. None of that plays into how you sound over the phone, or how well you code.

Canada really is the ideal place for US companies to outsource. If you have a Roadrunner cable modem and have ever called tech support, chances are you've been talking to someone at a local Ottawa firm called Convergys. I bet you never knew it, either.

Its been happening for years.....

[luckytroll]

Outsourcing to Canada has been going on for a while, mostly because of Canada's trusted status in matters of security. Even the evil Haliburton corporations big clusters are now living happily in Toronto along with dozens of others. I should know - I installed them - (and my karma aches for it)

This is like unemployment numbers

[HBI]

Everyone talks about first-time unemployment claims, but very few take the time to track what happens to the unemployed over time. Ditto for outsourcing projects. Most of the ones i've heard of or been involved with were ultimately cancelled due to incongruent labor laws, time differences, language barriers, quality control issues, et al.

Personal experience.

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm an american who HAS moved north up to Montreal to program (games for that matter), and cost of living in the city here are less than where I was in NY (Poughkeepsie), and if I were to move just 30 min outside of Montreal, cost of living would drop more than 40% less than where I was in NY, probably in the order of 60-80% less.

For example, a typical, 2500-3000 sq ft house around Poughkeepsie (Hopewell Jct to be specific) went for about 300-800k USD. A friend of mine bought a 2500 sq ft (ranch) house 15 min drive from down town Montreal for 140k CAD, with a pool and a very nice neighbourhood.

140k CAD is aprox 100k USD(at about 70 cents to the canadian dollar). So by this rough (I am sure prices in Hopewell have soared even higher), at worst the price is 66% less, and at best upwards of 88% less than the US counter part in that area.

Is it worth it? Thats for you to decide. I know I have more disposable income, even when converted to USD.

I do have the added benefit of being a dual citizen, but that is a minor issue. As long as you have a degree and a letter from a company stating you have a standing job offer in Canada, it's a matter of going to the border patrol office and they will do a little paper work (from what I have been told, less than a hour) and you are all set.

It isn't necessarily all it is cracked up to be

[gosand]

a health care system available to all its citizens?

My wife has family all over Canada, and I can tell you that from their experiences, the healthcare system isn't all that great. While everyone has coverage, it can be pretty tough to get in to see a doctor. Things take longer because their system is swamped. And I remember something about how the banking industry isn't that good up there, so you don't get decent interest rates. Or something like that, I can't remember. I just meant to say that it is no "wonderland", they do have their own issues.

But damn, are they polite up there. We went there on our honeymoon, took a 2 day tour on the Rocky Mountaineer. When we were pulling out of the station in Vancouver, there was graffiti sprayed on a nearby overpass. What did it say?
"Welcome to Vancouver".
Cracked my ass UP. Victoria was absolutely beautiful, I would move there in a second if I thought I could find a job.

Re:It isn't necessarily all it is cracked up to be

[nfotxn]

For the sake of accuracy I'll clarify the problems with medicare here. It is not difficult to see a doctor or get emergency treatment in the least. There are waiting times for patients who are not critical at emergency rooms but I don't think that is any different than in the USA.

One of the biggest problems we have here is with medical imaging. The cost of MRI equipement and technicians is absolutely astronomical which makes funding these clinics publically much more difficult than normal clinical staff in a hospital. Imaging is a pre-operative necessity in and this respect the entire system is gummed up at one point. Of course to the ignorant it looks as if the whole system doesn't work. That's not the case at all.

Upon inspection of most public healthcare programs here the major stumbling points usually have nothing to do with the talent of the staff or funding as such but more so to do with economic pressure from the south. Millions of Canadian tax dollars are used to train RN's and MD's who take work south of the border every year. Canadian healthcare workers are a rare breed who get paid peanuts compared to their US counterparts because they believe in equal access for all. The idea of uncomprimised equality for all is a very much a part of our culture in Canada. It is indeed no wonderland however our detractors from south of the border usually don't know all the details.

Outsource to the US

[pchasco]

Where I live in Illinois, the cost of living is:

55% less than New York, NY
43% less than San Francisco
21.5% less than San Diego
18.8% less than Los Angeles

And my city is slightly above the national average for cost of living.

Re:Where do I sign up

[Sharkford]

You needn't really bother going through the immigration processes on the CIC website; as Merkin Citizens you are eligible for the Free Trade work permit. Google for the details (and misc.immigration.canada is good), but basically you:

(a) finangle a job offer from a Canadian company, which of course will be conditional on you getting the permit

(b) show up at the border with the offer letter, your resume showing a couple years' experience, and proof of your education, and

(c) convince the border worker that these docs are legit and, very important, that they are consistent in their content (trying to take a sysadmin job with an English BA will be problematic). Then

(d) start work, find the beer store and buy suitable seasonal clothing, in whatever order suits you.

The hardest part is (a). But keep an eye on workopolis.ca, and be prepared to cover your own travel for interviewing and relocation.

S.

UN says Canada is a better place to live

[hey]

According to a recent U.N. report Canada is the 4th best place to live, above the USA.