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Real Responds to Apple's Hacking Claims
ack154 writes "An article on VNUNet gives a sharp response from Real regarding Apple's recent claims of Real using "hacker tactics" to allow music from the Real store to play on the iPod. Real states: 'Compatibility, choice and quality are critically important to consumers and Harmony provides all of these to users of the iPod and over 70 other music devices including those from Creative, Rio, iRiver and others.' The article goes on to outline what they say is a 'clear precedent' for what they have done. And in case you were under a rock it all seemed to start here earlier this week."
Compatibility, choice and quality are critically important to consumers...
In regards to real player these attributes are best defined as:
Compatibility: Real files only play in real player
Choice: Choose between real player basic (spyware laden) or real player premium (less spyware laden)
Quality: Only the highest quality spyware included in RealPlayer
Yeah, Apple probably is investigating DMCA provisions because the only thing I think Real could have done is encode songs in AAC, and use the iTunes authentication mechanism to allow playback w/DRM on the iPod.
I could see Apple being pissed about Real trying to sell a service based on using Apple's Fairplay DRM. If Real figured out a way to store MP3's on the iPod (as in no DRM), I couldn't see them getting mad at all.
And this blurb would be wrong. The iPod and iTunes both still support un DRM'd Music. Ihave over 5 gigs of un DRM'd MP3's on my PowerBook with no issues.
Gorkman
I thought this had been reported often enough by now.
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
5 years ago when they went after StreamBox.
Well actually, reverse engineering is explicitly illegal in the USA--that's what part of the fuss over the DMCA is.
Secondly, if Apple can claim either trade secret or copyright, then Real is in the wrong even without the benefit of bad law.
"People who do stupid things with hazardous materials often die." -- Jim Davidson on alt.folklore.urban
Works for me. Sure it's a workaround, but nice just the same.
Of course, it does not matter because Real is not circumventing copyprotection. In fact, Real is adding the DRM copyprotection to their own AAC files.
"If they have reverse engineered the Fairplay DRM, or used the PlayFair code to somehow encode their files as legit FairPlay DRM'd files then there's probably(most definately) something wrong(legally) with what they have done."
Lets break it down for you:
1) If they have reverse engineered Fairplay DRM - Guess what! That's fine. Reverse engineering for interoperability is fine according to the DMCA.
2) [if they] used the PlayFair code - assuming facts not in evidence
3) to somehow encode their files as legit FairPlay DRM'd files - If you read (doubtful), you'd realize that Real uses DRM on their files. More interestingly, Real's files use the AAC format. Just like Apple
4) then there's probably(most definately) something wrong(legally) with what they have done. - You are not a lawyer, you are not a judge, you are not a law maker. You apparently need to be beaten with a clue stick because you're talking out of your ass.
Stop it already.
> Real is trying to get their crappy DRMed files onto Apple's platform which,
Why would Real's 192kbps AAC files be crappier than Apples 128kbps AAC files?
> I'm led to believe they sell at or below cost
According to Jobs, the iPod is the moneymaker, while the iTMS is just breaking even.
> Now Real is trying to get a free ride onto Apple's device?
Do you think after-market inkjet ink suppliers are trying to get a free ride on HP, Epson, Canon, etc? Do you think they should be forbidden?
Amazing since the DMCA explicitly permits reverse engineering to ensure interoperability. Try again.
You want to know who isn't running Firefox 2.x? They spell it "definately" and "rediculous".
Music from Real's music store is encoded as an AAC file with a DRM wrapper.
All this software does is take RealDRM and replace it with equivalent AppleDRM.
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Mod me down, you fucking twits. Go ahead. I dare you.
(I read with sigs off.)
Why would Apple complain? This is certainly not going to cannibalize iPod sales (profitable) - it'll, if anything, increase them - and while it might reduce iTMS sales slightly, Apple makes minimal amounts of money off of those anyway.
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Mod me down, you fucking twits. Go ahead. I dare you.
(I read with sigs off.)
Where does everyone get this idea that you can only play DRM'd files bought from iTMS on the iPod?
You can buy an iPod and just rip your own stuff. That's what I do and it works great. I'm in Canada, so no iTMS for me, but it really hasn't bothered my music listening habits. I buy the CDs I want, then keep 'em in a wallet as high-res backups, and use the iPod for everything. It's No Big Deal. No store, no DRM, nothing. Hell, you can even turn off the store icon in iTunes so you never have to sully your eyes with that godless RIAA-0wned enterprise.
If Jesus wants me it knows where to find me.
The DMCA may have a loophole that makes this legal
It's not a "loophole", it's an explicit exception.
European law has a similar provision.
It's there for good reason: To promote competition and not allow DRM to be used for vendor lock-in.
(Current attempts notwithstanding)
What the DMCA does is prohibit circumvention of copyright-protection devices (e.g. "cracking"), unless it's done for interoperability purposes.
However, the EULA might prohibit reverse engineering no matter what. The enforcability of them are questionable, though. The UCITA act passed by some states is thought to make such clauses enforceable.
But I'm a bit sceptical, since a federal court found such a clause to be unenforcable in 1988 despite a Louisiana state law which allowed such clauses. I can't see why Federal law would not pre-empt the UCITA as well.
No, they didn't. You have to use their actual Real player to play any Real format. Helix by itself is just a stock media player that doesn't know about Real's proprietary stuff.
It's like Microsoft open sourced Windows but the OSS version will only run OSS applications, not anything Win32. It's Real using the community to develop a media player for OSS platforms.
You might like or dislike that, but as for them opening up their formats, that's BS.
HBI's Law: Frequency of calling others Nazis is directly correlated with the likelihood of the accuser being Communist.
wow. what a moron. apple never claimed their OS was open souce. they said the base system, darwin, (made by opendarwin) is what their system is based off of. at least if you're going to lie, tell one that's hard for people to debunk.
yeah. apple's SO closed. that's why they use ppc, an open architecture (unlike x86) openfirmware (an open bios implementation), standard component protocls and connections like pci, pci-x, agp, usb, firewire, ide, sata and more. that's why they've now switched completely to DVI monitors instead of ADP. that's why their filesystem, hfs+, has a fully working read/write implementation in linux.. because you know they CLOSED the format of course! (yeah right) more like they opened the documentation on it. that preferences system they use.. it's also know as xml, not some binary registry file. i'm sorry, but apple's only form of lock-in is that no other major manufacturers make ppc mobos and ppc chips besides apple and ibm on a wide enough scale to get high enough performance for os x.
lockin. yeah right.
- tristan
They are just using the trick playfair (now hymn) used... figure out how to ask the iPod for your user keys, try all of them until one decrypts the priv atom in a m4p file, and decrypt the data stream with the key therein. It's just standard AES (128-bit Rijandel). The trick was figuring out how keys are managed. And lucky for Real, all that groundwork was already done for them. Then they could just pull your user keys from your iPod and encrypt your downloads with those on THEIR music site. Easy peasy.
THIS THING CAN TURN ON A DIME, MACROSSZERO STYLE ALSO FUCK BETA, ~NYORON
Someone forgot to tell the lawyers at Nolo that there's no Trade Secret law.
Patents and Trade secrets
Settle down, man. Analogies are by nature not perfect. That's why they are analogies not similitudes. Just because he used some of your hobbies in his analogies doesn't make them obtuse.
Milo
I don't know what all the hoopla is about anyway. There are only two formats I use and they are MP3, and iTune/iPod lossless formatted. I've heard Real's player, and their formats, and frankly, they suck. They suck bad.
Most anyone who gets a decent pair of headphones, or a good amp and speakers, and listens to them will discover that they really do suck. For a voice book or something like that, I suppose they're acceptable. But when I can play that same book in iTunes or on the iPod, why bother with Real???!!!
Why would you want to listen to iTunes stuff on Real Networks player is beyond me??!!!
All content in this message is copyright (c) 2008. All rights reserved. RIAA is prohibited here.
Sorry to wander off-topic, but I watched Commodore's demise from rather closer that would be considered prudent, and I see very little similarity between Apple's business practices and Commodore's.
Commodore died due to non-existent marketing and aggressively incompetent management. They were used to "fire-and-forget" products that required no end-user support or continuing R&D. The Commodore-128 (and arguably the C-64) was the last such platform meeting that description. It was designed, manufactured, and sold -- end of discussion. You could return it under warranty if it was DOA, but that was about the extent of their "support."
Then they bought Amiga, and suddenly found themselves not only with the finest personal computer system the world would see for the next 15 years, but an honest-to-$(GOD) computer system that demanded end-user support and continuing R&D to keep it up to date and moving forward. Commodore could never figure this out. They couldn't understand why people didn't just buy the thing and then leave them alone. They had an amazing computer, but what they really wanted to sell was consumer electronic equipment. Commodore's technical staff was first-rate, but was continually sabotaged by an executive management team (Irving Gould, Medhi Ali) that simply didn't want to be bothered.
Apple's management understood and understands computer system design and enhancement. Commodore's didn't. And so, Commodore died, and (effectively) took the Amiga with it.
Sorry about the off-topic rant.
Schwab
Editor, A1-AAA AmeriCaptions
So you mean he makes $10/yr now? His salary at Apple is $1.
Uh, no. That was a gimmick to market himself as being in the trenches during his early time back at Apple. Even back then, he was getting pricy perks like a $90 million dollar Gulfstream luxury jet from Apple. Jobs was, in 2003, the highest paid CEO in California, and the second-highest paid CEO anywhere.
May we never see th