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Real Responds to Apple's Hacking Claims

ack154 writes "An article on VNUNet gives a sharp response from Real regarding Apple's recent claims of Real using "hacker tactics" to allow music from the Real store to play on the iPod. Real states: 'Compatibility, choice and quality are critically important to consumers and Harmony provides all of these to users of the iPod and over 70 other music devices including those from Creative, Rio, iRiver and others.' The article goes on to outline what they say is a 'clear precedent' for what they have done. And in case you were under a rock it all seemed to start here earlier this week."

72 of 620 comments (clear)

  1. It's about the music..... by BWJones · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I've been watching this whole thing unfold for some time now and paid attention to the overtures Real was making to Apple some time ago. Basically issue here is that the folks who designed the iPod and the iTunes music store really cared about the music, whereas Real is concerned with making money by delivering media rather than caring anything about the media per se. Let me repeat that for the folks at Real........It's about the music.

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    1. Re:It's about the music..... by BWJones · · Score: 2, Insightful

      An addendum: Apple has worked damn hard to get the record labels to get on board with this while giving end users reasonable liberties with the music they paid for. This effort by Real undermines this process and will only serve to make record labels more unwilling to participate in electronic delivery and dissemination of media.

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    2. Re:It's about the music..... by Ahnteis · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Riiiiiiight. Apple is whining about interoperability because they don't like music published by Real. In AAC format. At a higher bitrate. It all makes sense now.

    3. Re:It's about the music..... by DAldredge · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Bullshit.

      Apple/Steve Jobs is about making money and their entire history shows this. Their entire PR campaign is just that, a PR campaign. It isn't the way the company really does things.

      If it was they wouldn't even be publicy thinking about using the DMCA on real nor would they be such hard asses when it came to people copying 'their' look and feel.

    4. Re:It's about the music..... by mblase · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Basically issue here is that the folks who designed the iPod and the iTunes music store really cared about the music, whereas Real is concerned with making money by delivering media rather than caring anything about the media per se. Let me repeat that for the folks at Real........It's about the music.

      Oh, please. Apple is a publicly-traded business. They've always been about making money.

      I love Apple dearly, but let's face it: the whole reason they've locked down their FairPlay DRM exclusively to iTunes and iPod is because they control both. If people only buy music from iTMS, they're more likely to buy iPods; similarly, if other companies licensed FairPlay for their music stores, they could use it in other portable music players so people could use iTMS and play those songs on non-iPod players.

      Apple exists to make profits, and the iPod is currently their key profitmaker. They want to lock as many people into it as they can. Since they're not a monopoly, they're legally allowed to do so, and since they do it so darned well, nobody really complains. But it's lock-in nonetheless.

    5. Re:It's about the music..... by mblase · · Score: 3, Insightful

      This effort by Real undermines this process and will only serve to make record labels more unwilling to participate in electronic delivery and dissemination of media.

      How, exactly, did you come to that conclusion? Just because Real can sell music with "simulated" FairPlay DRM doesn't mean they don't have to license the music first. They'll have to enter into contracts with those record companies before they can sell any of their music, same as Apple did.

    6. Re:It's about the music..... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Apple has worked damn hard to get the record labels to get on board with this while giving end users reasonable liberties with the music they paid for.

      This is the "Great Lie" of the pro-iTunes crowd. There's no substantial difference between iTunes and services like Real, and the RIAA has been very clear they aren't playing favorites. (And if they did give anyone a special deal, they could be anti-trust trouble.)

      This effort by Real undermines this process and will only serve to make record labels more unwilling to participate in electronic delivery and dissemination of media

      Why would the record companies care if a song is sold through Apple or through Real? It's all the same money to them.

    7. Re:It's about the music..... by thatguywhoiam · · Score: 2, Insightful
      If it was they wouldn't even be publicy thinking about using the DMCA on real nor would they be such hard asses when it came to people copying 'their' look and feel.

      DMCA rattling aside, I totally understand Apple's position on 'their' look and feel, even if I don't necessarily agree with it entirely.

      Microsoft copying Apple's efforts is generally considered one of the biggest rip-offs of all time, so I think I'd be a little sensitive about it too. That shit takes work, as anyone who's tried to come up with a theme that looks better than Aqua can attest.

      (And don't give me the Xerox argument, that was put to bed years ago.)

      --
      If Jesus wants me it knows where to find me.
    8. Re:It's about the music..... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful
      Why would the record companies care if a song is sold through Apple or through Real? It's all the same money to them.
      Actually it's in their interest that Real succeeds. If there are a number of successful on-line music distributors, it gives the labels a much better bargaining position than if there is only Apple iTMS.
    9. Re:It's about the music..... by thatguywhoiam · · Score: 2, Insightful
      The entire computer industry is based on the copying of others work. Please lookup the Compaq/IBM IBM PC BIOS RE case.

      No, it's not.

      If we're going to make sweeping statements: the computer industry is based on hard work and innovation, and to a lesser extent improving upon accepted conventions. Trotting out some prehistoric BIOS lawsuit proves nothing - those were formative years for the industry and hardly apply to today's situation.

      Besides, hardware and software = apples and oranges.

      --
      If Jesus wants me it knows where to find me.
  2. Hacker tactics? by k98sven · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Sure. Reverse-engineering is a hacker tactic.

    So?

    That doesn't make it illegal. Rather it is specifically allowed by law.
    (Yes that even means the DMCA, for interoperability purposes.)

    What a stupid attempt at guilt-by-association.

    1. Re:Hacker tactics? by Threni · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Yeah, what's called `hacker tactics` in programming is not considered immoral, illegal or anything bad in others. Want to work out a recipe? Just eat a sample and scribble down what you can taste in it. Want to see how a car engine works? Open the bonnet and have a look, or buy a service manual. Same for radios, tvs, etc. Want to play like Charlie Parker? Dream on. I mean, listen to him, transcribe them, play them back yourself, slowly at first.

      Just because big business and their bed fellows in government want to protect their profits doesn't mean we should take their regressive nonsense any more seriously. I don't remember any of the originators of programming, whether it be hardware or software, attempting to impede progress.

    2. Re:Hacker tactics? by RazzleFrog · · Score: 1, Insightful

      I apologize if I am missing some subtle sarcasm in your post but:
      Want to work out a recipe? Just eat a sample and scribble down what you can taste in it.

      If you can do that then you must have a pretty discerning palate. To be able to not only sense each ingredient but to determine the measurement of it would outdo the greatest of gourmands.

      Want to see how a car engine works? Open the bonnet and have a look, or buy a service manual

      Looking under the hood of a modern car would be pretty much worthless and a service manual wouldn't be much better. You may get an idea of how it works but not why it works.

      Want to play like Charlie Parker?

      You don't have to transcribe them yourself. People have done it a million times over. You can pick up the Charlie Parker Omnibook and get pretty faithful transcriptions. No matter how well you play them, though, you will never be playing like Charlie Parker. All of that incredible music came straight of the top of his head. There are few who could ever compare to the Bird (maybe Trane on tenor or Miles on trumpet) for improvisation. Add the fact that he was coked up most of the time and played on reeds like popsicle sticks and you have a god to most saxophone players (myself included).

      And I am ready for the off-topic mod but I am posting without Bonus and have Karma to burn.

    3. Re:Hacker tactics? by Hrothgar+The+Great · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Nice job missing his entire point there, chief.

    4. Re:Hacker tactics? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Steve, a hacker? HAHAHA

      Woz was the real hacker.

    5. Re:Hacker tactics? by AKAImBatman · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If you can do that then you must have a pretty discerning palate. To be able to not only sense each ingredient but to determine the measurement of it would outdo the greatest of gourmands.

      Bull. It's not that hard. "Hmm... this cookie tastes like it's a standard cookie recipes with chocolate chips and a hint of something else. What could that be... AH HA! A touch of Molasses!"

      Then you go to the kitchen and tinker with the recipe until it works out the way you want it.

      Looking under the hood of a modern car would be pretty much worthless and a service manual wouldn't be much better. You may get an idea of how it works but not why it works.

      True, but you could take it apart and eventually discern the workings of a combustion engine. If you already have that knowledge, you can build on it by comparing how different engines function. By paying attention to the details, you should eventually understand what design features and tuning the engineers put into each engine.

      These things are not dissimilar to software. When Wing Commander first came out, it was an amazing technical feat. Yet it was quite easy for experienced developers to figure out "how they did it." By simply looking at the graphics, it was easy to see that the ships were sprites instead of true 3D. Through additional viewing, one could discern that these sprites had been pre-rotated, thus producing a small amount of jerkiness as a scene rotated.

      The view of the cockpit provided a further optimization for the developers to leverage. Since the actual play area was only about half the screen, only about half the screen was repainted for each frame. Even the game's wonderful music was easily distinguishable as MIDI output instead of FM synthesis.

    6. Re:Hacker tactics? by DAldredge · · Score: 4, Insightful

      No, Woz was the hacker. Jobs was the thief.

  3. Real talking? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Compatibility? Did you say choice for consumers?

    How about opening the .rm format so I can use any player to play it?

    1. Re:Real talking? by kenthorvath · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Didn't they already do that with the helix project?

  4. Everybody who's willing to defend Apple by mst76 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Everybody who's willing to defend Apple in this case, ask yourself, were you also willing to defend Lexmark when they sued an after-market toner maker? This case doesn't seem all that dissimilar to me.

    1. Re:Everybody who's willing to defend Apple by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Actually, I'll defend Apple for a different reason.

      If Real was soooo hung up on offering you *choice*, why wouldn't their product simply strip ALL kinds of DRM data and place a happy *choice enabling* MP3 onto the iPod?

      How would Real react if a third-party created software that took their audio files and did this? I bet they wouldn't be talking about *choice* then.

    2. Re:Everybody who's willing to defend Apple by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Because if they had no DRM, they'd have no deals with the RIAA members to sell their music.

      They'd be limited to indy and public domain stuff, which despite what slashbots will tell you, won't make them a dime.

      Which is what Apple is after. If you have an iPod, and want to legally download songs for it (without jumping through lame assed burn to cd and rerip hoops), they want iTunes to be the only way possible to do so.

      I'm 100% behind real. Imagine if the only way to get movies for your Sony DVD player was from Sony.

      Hell, imagine the only online store that has that obscure album you want is Real, and you have an iPod. Sucks to be you!

      I hate Apple the company, the shinyness or technical merits of their products notwithstanding. I hate their obsolete closed view of computers. I hate that the same business model killed Commodore, yet Apple survives. Obviously, there's no justice in the world.

      Step by step, inch by inch, Apple creeps closer and closer towards their goals of complete vendor lock-in. Yet these slashdot idiots are ready to deify them, claiming that their OS is "open source", it fucking isnt. Tell me where I can download OSX. Darwin doesnt mean shit to me or anyone else.

    3. Re:Everybody who's willing to defend Apple by tlhIngan · · Score: 5, Insightful

      How would Real react if a third-party created software that took their audio files and did this? I bet they wouldn't be talking about *choice* then.

      They sued. They got injunctions. That's how.

      (A long while ago, there was a little program called StreamBox that did nothing but download Real rtsp streams onto your hard drive. It was later modified to download streaming WMA as well. And this isn't some crappy faux soundcard - nor a proxy server. It acted like the client, and downloaded the file. As such, it only worked in real time (since the servers only streamed audio at that rate).)

      And the Streambox guys did it by reverse-engineering the protocol. Heck, I remember an even older program (XFileGet) that did a similar thing, but broke when Real changed protocols. Funny now that the shoe's on the other foot.

    4. Re:Everybody who's willing to defend Apple by Tenebrious1 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      What Apple seems to be mad about is them cracking their DRM.

      Why would Apple care that the DRM has been "hijacked"? The iPod ships with a bona fide DRM that works as designed, so there's no negligence on Apple's part. The DRM still exists, the Fairplay DRM'ed songs are still DRM'ed and there's a limit on where those songs can be played. So there's no threat of iTunes songs being pirated (directly, since there are ways to get around it).

      So, why is Apple concerned? Because exaclty like the Lexmark case, Apple is concerned about 3rd party vendors. They don't want to lose iTunes business to Real. That Real has managed to fake the iPod to play other DRM schemes besides Fairplay doesn't mean that any iTunes songs are open to piracy (although that may happen later). So it is exactly like the Lexmark case.

      --
      -- If god wanted me to have a sig, he'd have given me a sense of humor.
    5. Re:Everybody who's willing to defend Apple by BasilBrush · · Score: 2, Insightful
      You come up with one valid possibility. But I don't think that's the right one. What we have here is a straight forward format standards war. WMA vs Fairplay DRM (Real would like to be a third candidate, but they're not). It Apple allow rm files to be converted on the fly to Fairplay files without challenge, the next step is for someone to do the same with WMA. If one can convert WMA to Fairplay to play on iPods, then WMA becomes the master format, playable on most audio players and convertable to play on iPods. That's why Apple don't want it to happen.

      This also explains why Apple had no problem with RealPlayer playing Fairplay tunes on a PC via the Quicktime API.

    6. Re:Everybody who's willing to defend Apple by zurab · · Score: 4, Insightful
      And the Streambox guys did it by reverse-engineering the protocol.

      You mean reverse-engineering a public RFC standard RTSP protocol? Anybody from Programming 101 can write a small app that catches a stream and writes data to a file, especially when the protocol to request the stream from the server is a public standard. Now, that does not mean the codec is a public standard, nor does it have to be, for you to simply capture the stream to a file.

      It's sad how everything pro-Apple gets modded up +5 insightful; I am pretty sure if the story was about Microsoft/HP/Lexmark/[insert standard "evil" corporation] products or DRM, the +5/+4 range comments would all be "OMG, how could they do this to us... DMCA/evil corp must be stopped... write to your reps... etc. etc."

      And no, the (alleged) fact that Real is "evil" with their software, or that their software sucks, has little or nothing to do with the principle of this matter. Real is not defended here, but a principle of reverse-engineering is a bigger issue. I could care less about Real! If it was not Real but it was some "angel" corporation that descended from heaven last week, what difference would it make in what Apple is doing (well, they technically haven't done anything yet, but what pro-Apple posts keep justifying anyway)? Nothing, the principle of the matter would be exactly the same - either you can reverse-engineer, or you cannot.
    7. Re:Everybody who's willing to defend Apple by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      What's your point?

      Does IBM channel AIX on other platforms? HP with HP-UX/True64/god-knows-what-else-they-have?

      I fail to see how reselling an OS is an indicator of open or closed systems.

      And since when isn't Windows a closed system? I mean, where do you draw the line in determining what is an open or closed system?

      Sure it comes preinstalled on other vendor machines, but do those vendors have any more access to the source code than, say, Joe Lunchbox programmer? No. Do they determine what goes in the next version? Hell no and don't try to tell me otherwise.

      Why is WMA suddenly *the* standard (read to mean "open" by some people for some crazy reason) when players that are built for it won't play AAC formats? Or even the beloved OGG that everbody on here creams their pants over? Why is it bad one way, but not the other?

      You want pure open source Apple? Download Darwin on PPC or x86. Want the full Apple experience with the GUI, buy OSX and accept some proprietary innovation. Otherwise download an X11 implementation for Darwin and have fun that way.

      And we're blaming Apple for making money while still providing a good (and complete) user experience why exactly?

    8. Re:Everybody who's willing to defend Apple by ocelotbob · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Wrong. OS X is irrevocably tied to Apple's hardware. The licensing of the OS states that it can only be used on Apple's hardware, which is the real reason why there are no mac clones, not your flimsy argument that the other guys' PPC hardware isn't powerful enough. Try again, apple boy.

      --

      Marxism is the opiate of dumbasses

    9. Re:Everybody who's willing to defend Apple by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      You mean reverse-engineering a public RFC standard RTSP protocol? Anybody from Programming 101 can write a small app that catches a stream and writes data to a file, especially when the protocol to request the stream from the server is a public standard. Now, that does not mean the codec is a public standard, nor does it have to be, for you to simply capture the stream to a file.

      Well, before Real used RTSP (when did they switch to that? Last RealPlayer I used they were still using Real Server and rmms or whatever it was called), they used their own proprietary protocol (used with their Real Server). And guess what? StreamBox did that, too!

      Anyhow, StreamBox is no more - there's still some old press releases about it on the web. Litigated out of existence. You can find it on your favorite P2P site because it works (and works with WMA streams, which do not use RTSP). But it will grab 99% of the streams out there.

      Pro-Apple or not, the fact remains - Real did something they themselves did not want done to their software.

  5. Not up to Real to decide what iPod supports by yabos · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Since there isn't any explaination of exactly what they do we can't say for sure that they cracked the iPod to get their songs to play, but, Apple makes the product and who is Real to say that they must support Real files as well?

    If they have reverse engineered the Fairplay DRM, or used the PlayFair code to somehow encode their files as legit FairPlay DRM'd files then there's probably(most definately) something wrong(legally) with what they have done.

  6. Choice? Quality? by CelticWhisper · · Score: 5, Insightful

    This from Real, the company who, not even 5 years ago, had a player so bogged down with spyware and other junk that it had become a four-letter word to practically the entire tech community? Real, the company whose player had auto-starts and other background automation that was nigh impossible to disable?

    I think they need to examine their own products before they accuse Apple of denying choice and quality to the customer, in so many words.

    Just my $0.02 worth.

    --
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  7. DMCA by NutscrapeSucks · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Apple is stretching by threating to use the DMCA. Since this only works with Real's service, there's no copyright infringement going on, so copyright law should not apply. The intent of the DMCA was to protect copyright holders, not the middlemen.

    This is very different than DeCSS, where there was obvious infringing uses.

    --
    Whenever I hear the word 'Innovation', I reach for my pistol.
  8. Re:Buisness model by TomHandy · · Score: 4, Insightful
    Actually, isn't it the other way around? I think Apple has made it clear that the iTunes Music Store itself is barely, if at all, profitable..... I always got the impression that they saw it as a way to drive sales of the iPod (same with giving away the iTunes player for free).

    Apple makes a lot more money selling iPods than they do selling songs on the iTMS.

    -Tom

  9. Re:Compatibility, choice and quality by Chanc_Gorkon · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Last I checked, Real has no spyware with the player and the features of it that can be considered iffy can all be shut off and are all shut off by default. Also AdAware and PestPatrol both seem to skip over Real. Now why is it spyware again? Oh sure, bitch att them cuz the free player is so damn hard to get too but don't try to say they are spying.

    --

    Gorkman

  10. Re:Bottom line... by thirteenVA · · Score: 2, Insightful
    I doubt we'll even get so far as to see this happen.

    How many ipod users do you think are running over to the Real music store?

    iTunes offers more music at the some price that is easily downloaded and added to your ipod. Do you really think enough ipod users will run over and buy music from rea,l before apple disables the Real 'Hack', for this to even be a big deal?

    This is only a big deal to those of us reading slashdot where we can argue the legality of the hack and judge the ethics of apple in and Real in defending there respective positions.

  11. MP3 by barcodez · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I just want MP3s and an MP3 player - I don't want DRM and I won't by anything with DRM in it. Both Real and Apple can sod off for all I care.

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  12. Re:Compatibility, choice and quality by denis-The-menace · · Score: 2, Insightful

    You forgot the real alternative choice. And it works in Mozilla 1.7.1 for windows.

    --
    Obama's legacy: (N)othing (S)ecure (A)nywhere and (T)error (S)imulation (A)dministration
  13. Real at fault by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    While i haven't actually followed all of the comments that have been posted ever since this situation began, i find it odd that so many seem to be coming to real's defense. Many have been spouting crap about the user being able to do whatever they want with the equipment they purchased but this situation is not so easy in my opinion. If you as the END USER buy your ipod and want to throw it on the ground or open it up or play vinyls on it, i could care less quite frankly. But here is a case of a COMPANY who HAS NOT purchased the product but instead developed a way to try and ride on the success of it WITHOUT the permission of the COMPANY who DEVELOPED it and STILL sells as one of their primary sources of income. I would have no problem if Apple had permitted Real to do this but as i see it, Real is in the wrong because they are trying to ride someone else's wave. Some of you may not realize this but this has the potential of removing revenue from Apple's store, Apple who actually spend the big bucks developing both the player and the store. I think it is bad that real just try and cut in because they think they can.

    And to those saying it is all about the users and more options well newsflash, to them it is all about the money because without the money, there is no store, real or Apple. No store and then there are LESS options for the user.

    My 2 cents.

  14. Its just the way they said hacker by t_allardyce · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Never thought id back Real in anything but the whole thing is a joke and Apple is taking the piss with their "Hacker tactics" bullshit, what does that even mean? Im pretty sure Real didn't *hack* into Apple servers and screw them over, so they must be talking about the other type of hacking - ie reverse engineering, finding out how things work, experimenting and exploring etc. That's not illegal or immoral and its the only way science and technology can move forward so what are they saying? burn the witches? ban innovation? fuck them. If they want to talk about dodgy business tactics then fine, that would at least sound a bit more realistic, but both companies have no ethics so im happy to sit and watch them fight it out.

    --
    This comment does not represent the views or opinions of the user.
  15. Why does Apple have a problem with this? by Orbix · · Score: 5, Insightful

    My main question is this: Why does this bother Apple? Everything I remember reading said that Apple was either making very little or potentially losing money on the iTunes music store, rather using it as a means to sell more iPods. If this is the case, you'd think that Apple would be thrilled that someone else was giving consumers a reason to buy one of their products...

    1. Re:Why does Apple have a problem with this? by Arkham · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Why does this bother Apple? Everything I remember reading said that Apple was either making very little or potentially losing money on the iTunes music store, rather using it as a means to sell more iPods

      Because Apple DOES make a profit on iTMS, albeit a small one. It's all about economy of scale. Right now they have a big share of a small market. In 10 years, it's going to be a huge market, and they do not want to be marginalized in it. 70% of 150 million songs is not a lot of profit, but in 10 years, 50% of 150 billion songs would be pretty nice indeed.

      --
      - Vincit qui patitur.
    2. Re:Why does Apple have a problem with this? by ballookey · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Maybe I'm retarded, but I have to ask: Why does everyone keep saying this will help Apple?

      If Real has made it possible to put Real tracks on an iPod that only means that people will be more likely to buy tracks from Real. It doesn't benefit Apple at all because who now owns or wants an iPod but is holding out because they can't put Real tracks on it? Anyone?

      I can't say I like the idea of Apple pursuing litigation under the DMCA, however, Real and everyone else are joking if they think Apple should be delighted.

      ANYONE who doesn't like Apple's DRM has the complete freedom to put any tracks they like on their iPod in one of several other file formats, including MP3. So any music service interested in taking advantage of iPod popularity need only make their tracks available in one of THOSE formats.

      Why they gotta have the fruit of the one tree God forbade them?

      OH YEAH, THAT'S RIGHT - it's the record labels that won't allow their tracks to be sold without the DRM. Apple's not the evil mofos insisting on the DRM - without it, the record labels wouldn't play. If Apple doesn't agressively protect the DRM upon which their agreements with the record lables hinge, then they're in breech of contract no doubt. The labels will walk and bye-bye ITMS.

      Didn't anyone see JFK? Think who benefits.

  16. Hit them with DMCA - see how they like it ;- by Zweistein_42 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I'd _love_ Apple to hit Real with DMCA related lawsuit. Not because I think what Real is doing isn't great (unlike most of their other activities), or that DMCA is a "Good Thing" (tm), but on the contrary -- until commercial companies themselves start getting hit with too-relaxed DMCA definitions (as opposed to individuals), their lobbying efforts will likely keep the law on the books. If the content industry big shots start getting tangled in zillions of IP/copyright related lawsuits, perhaps the laws will be moderated to the point they make some sort of sense...

    --
    - To err is human; but to really screw up, you need a computer
  17. Re:That reminds me ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    I kind of agree, but there is a significant difference. With DeCSS, you are messing with someone else's IP (the protected movie) to get access to it under your own terms, which is specifically denied by the DMCA. With Real, they are selling IP (music) that they have rights to, and whether they have infringed Apple's IP (their DRM system) or not is unknown to me.

  18. The iPod is not a right!! by spoonani · · Score: 1, Insightful

    I posted this on the last apple/real thread, but i don't think it was ever read. (note IANAL) Many people (including real) are expressing that they have a right to listen to whatever formats they wish on the iPod. Yet, no one was ever forced to purchase an iPod. As far as I see, the freedom to choose your selected audio formats is with the consumer before they purchase a music device. If a consumer is unhappy with their purchase, they are free to obtain a player that will utilize other music formats. my Ogg buddies love their machines knowing the functionality was more imporatant than the coolness factor, and I have my iPod due to my own journey through the MP3 player purchasing decision. Apple has spent a ton of money on R&D and adverting, and any other company is free to do the same to create and sell a product of superior value offering. for real to piggyback on Apple's success is not only an admission of the lack of success with their own downloading venuture, but their failure to as of yet provide their own superior offering. it is in this spirit that we have such an excellent race with game consoles vying to prove they are the best value for specific consumers.

  19. Ford car hacked to run on alcohol, ford complains by SmallFurryCreature · · Score: 4, Insightful
    What do you say? Fuck off ford? Drop dead ford? Who gives a damn what ford would say about what I do with my car. If I setup a business to buy regular cars and hack them and sell them on, or setup a business that sell parts to hack existing cars then that is all 100% legal and is pretty normal business practice. The only people with a right to say what you can and can not do with a car are the people who elected goverment to enforce certain rules. (any car model on the road has to be tested, hack a car enough and you got to have it tested as well)

    Similiar Apple has no business controlling what others do with their hardware. If people want to replace the software on it so it can be used with another service then that is their right. Just like ford can't say anything about you converting a petrol powered car to a gas powered car apple should keep it mouth shut. Anyone defending apple is a sucker for advertising. Just because Apple had that 1985 ad doesn't mean it is really a freedom company. Carefully read Mac owners posts and you will see that Apple is just an MS without the money but a "cooler" image.

    Just replace apple with MS and see if you think the same about the story.

    --

    MMO Quests are like orgasms:

    You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.

  20. Some people don't seem to understand... by hethatishere · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Apple is pissed for several reasons. First and foremost because the iPod isn't just a music player, it's a bundled music solution, since techies love that word. You get a fantastic sexy little jukebox and the elegance of having it work with iTunes, nearly transparently.

    I doubt it's "competition" Apple is all that concerned about since Real wont steal too many customers on their own. It's bundling. What do you think Microsoft will pressure PC companies into shipping instead of iTunes? Yeah, something that claims "compatibility" with all systems.
    Apple wants everyone to experience the elegance of the integration with iTunes and the iPod. They want you to synch your music with iTunes, and buy your music with iTunes. Then being so impressed with how nice and impressed how everything works go out and buy a Mac. Think Trojan Horse, only it's a mid-to-long term strategy for Apple.
    Apple is also undoubtedly concerned about having to support Real's song delivery system since people having trouble getting music onto their iPods will blame Apple. Real's notoriously secretive UI-unfriendly software will undoubtedly
    I agree with Apple opening up the iPod. But I also believe the style in which Real did this was totally disgusting. I had little respect for Real before this, and even less afterwards. No matter how much they claim the moral ground this is an act of desperation. An act that while is a movement in the right direction for the industry was riddled with pettiness and beligerence. And is clearly being done to save a company that created it's own destruction with it's inferior software and horrible policies towards it's users.

    --
    Something intelligent here.
  21. "Hello, pot? This is kettle." by beldraen · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Beat me to it, AC. That they locked RM is the thing that irritated me the most about Real and why I have long since dumped them. Make no mistake at what they said: Consumers should be given a choice, not people. Consumers are required to buy something to be consumers, people do not. What's going on is that they want rights for their business to not be reduced, only people's rights; thus, a captured market with no recourse but to be dependant on the businesses. If we're going to live in a DMCA world, then Real should have its butt raided by the FBI.

    --
    Bel, the mostly sane.. "Of course I can't see anything! I'm standing on the shoulders of idiots." -- Me
  22. What's good for the goose.... by HarbV7.0 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Apple should just go and add .rm compability to the Quick Time player. When Real complains, they could just say, "Hey, we used reverse engineering".

  23. MP3 Format by cstream_chris · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Real is probably in a lot of trouble here since they obviously reverse engineered some code from the iPod for their benefit without Apple's permission. I would hate to be a lawyer for Real at this point because it's basically like saying, "Yes we did violate the Terms and Conditions of the iPod, but we had a good reason to" - this generally doesn't stand up too well in court!

    The DMCA can be applied if Real circumvented Apple's copyright protection mechanisms - regardless of whether it was for interoperability. It is a violation of the DMCA to not only do it yourself, but then also to distribute the means to do it e.g. the DeCSS case with Jon Johansen.

    A few of you may remember the article The Way the Music Died in which I wrote that our company cStream (http://www.cstream.com was allowing people to stream full previews of songs while purchasing songs of higher quality in MP3 format.

    Personally, whenever I buy a song on iTunes or BuyMusic I burn it to a CD and then rip it into MP3 format. Then I don't have to worry about losing the license to the file if I decide to purchase a new music player or a new computer.

  24. Holy ad hominem attacks, Batman ! by LordPixie · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The number of posts that state "OMG, REAL HAS SPYWARE IS EVIL coupled with "OMG, APPLE MAKES FRUITY CONSUMER APPLIANCES AND IS AWESOME" is really disgusting. For Pete's sake, people. Take an objective look at the situation.

    Real has done a lot of crappy things over the years. Apple has done plenty of good things over the years. That does not mean that Apple is automagically right, and Real is wrong. I've come to expect a pretty significant bias in regards to the average SlashDotter, but this is waaaay beyond that.


    --LordPixie

  25. Here's a quarter, buy a clue. by phillymjs · · Score: 2, Insightful

    First off, Apple not wanting competition has nothing to do with their objection to Real doing this. Real is not competing, they are riding on the coattails of another company's success. If Real was competing, they'd be selling a portable player that played MP3 and Real Media files. Any competition was over when the prospective customer for that player chose an iPod instead.

    Secondly, Apple makes a pittance from iTMS sales. iPod sales are where the money is. "But wait," you say, "Then wouldn't Apple be all for anything that might sell more iPods?" No, and here's why:

    Apple's user experience is due to them controlling "the whole widget," as they say-- hardware and software. If Real wedges some of their own software into the iPod, that could cause problems for Apple.

    Do you think Real will go out of their way to inform iPod-owning customers of their music store that their iPod implementation is nothing but a hack, liable to be broken (either purposely or accidentally) at any time by future iPod upgrades from Apple? Doubtful.

    Who's going to look bad if Apple had no qualms with Real's hack and then a future iPod firmware revision broke it? Apple, not Real.

    Who's to say Real's hack won't end up frying some percentage of the iPods on which it is installed? Will Real be paying to get those repaired? Nope. Will Apple bear the brunt of a shitstorm from pissed-off people who fried their iPod and were rightly refused free warranty service by Apple because they broke the terms of their warranty/EULA? Yup.

    To sum up, Real would be reaping all the rewards of this unauthorized "joint venture," and Apple would be taking all the risks. Any increase in iPod sales as a result of Real's hack opening up the iPod could be very quickly offset by negative publicity, if the the Real hack proved problematic. All it takes is a couple assholes with a grudge and a blog, and next thing you know big media spins it into some kind of defect in the iPod that is Apple's fault.

    For Christ's sake, the iPod has been out for almost three years now and a CNN article from two days ago implies that it ONLY plays songs purchased from the iTMS. These people are more concerned with getting the article out than getting the details right.

    Real is nothing but a bunch of parasites who make crappy software, I'm all for Apple fighting them over this.

    ~Philly

  26. Re:I keep waiting for Real... by inchhigh · · Score: 4, Insightful
    Or for apple to start 'keeping it real'

    seriously though, if it's ok for Real to reverse engineer to create interoperability, how was it not ok for John DeCSS to reverse engineer to make linux interoperable with the DVD format?

  27. Compatibility, choice and quality by Mordaximus · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Interestingly, two of these three words were used to make the name Compaq. A company that 22 years ago reverse engineered IBMs BIOS to give us the clones we all enjoy today. I shudder to think where we would be if the DMCA existed in 1982. Seems to me 'hacker tactics' got us where we are now. So in a way, I support Real's position.

    Cue [Buffering...] jokes.

  28. common misconception by morcheeba · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The DMCA allows an exception "solely for the purpose of enabling interoperability of an independently created computer program with other programs, and to the extent that doing so does not constitute infringement under this title or violate applicable law other that this section" 17 U.S.C 1201(f)(3). (emphasis mine)

    The judge in the SCC/Lexmark case read this very narrowly and said that since the algorithm came on a chip, it was non-exempt hardware instead of software. This case isn't allowing software/software interoperability (like Wine offers), but it's data/software interoperability. Big difference; if the DMCA allowed that, then DVD-playing would be legal (same interoperability, except in reverse)

  29. From a support standpoint by gamgee5273 · · Score: 4, Insightful
    I would not want to be Apple or Real if this situation ever comes to pass because something will break - and where does the fault lay?

    Arguably, since Real isn't licensing FairPlay, I would point the finger at them.

    Let's play hypothetical: Apple comes out with iPod mini 2.0 with a 6 GB drive and loads of new touches and features in the firmware. Joe Windows-User has bought more than few albums on Real's store and is interested in upgrading from his old Rio player. He knows his songs from Real are "compatible" with the iPod, so he goes and buys himself a mini 2.0. He goes home, hooks up the iPod and goes to install his songs - and they don't work.

    Where does he go for support? Apple never worked with Real to make those songs work, thus Apple won't care. Will Real just sit and point the finger at Apple for "disabling" the iPod, even though Apple may not have purposefully done anything to disable Real's music? Will they change Harmony to work with the new iPod and then allow their users to download new copies of the songs with the new Harmony code in them to make sure they work?

    It strikes me that Real has to count on their buyers never upgrading their iPods, or using them with anything other than Real's jukebox app, for this to work with no issues.

    As a support professional, I would be telling my boss to stop this before things get too messy. I'm not pro-DRM, and I don't agree with Apple's "hacker" statement or invocation of the DMCA, but I can see some practical issues here that always arise from making a machine do something the vendor didn't intend and I wouldn't want to take the phone calls on the support lines once the fit hits the shan...

  30. Gift horse / mouth by fleener · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Leave it to Apple to complain when the functionality and usefulness of its product is expanded at no cost to them. Darn these increased sales! Make it stop!

  31. Wait and see. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Lots of people from all sides of the arguments yelled and accused each other names. And you know what? So fat, Apple hasn't taken any action beyond issuing the press release and yet people already called them evil. Why don't we wait and see before passing judgements? Offering your opinion of what Apple should do is fine, but accusing them of practices before anything was done is silly.

    Personally, I am glad Apple took such a long time to issue any PR and refused to react in a knee-jerk manner. I see that as a proof that they really are considering the positive and negative aspects of the issue (and possibly poring over the law books).

    I see the positive of this as forcing the license issue to a head. iTMS already has a huge marketshare, maybe it's time to license compatibility with iPods. Also, because, baring any successful lawsuit, Real will license HT and the only thing Apple can do to counter it is to license theirs. However, I also see a negative of this: who gets the blame when your iPod refused to play your Real music which is not Apple-sanctioned in the future? Average Joes probably just blame the player instead of the Real format.

    So, for you who insisted on looking at this only from one perspective, you may do well looking at it from another.

  32. The REAL issue by Anonymous+Writer · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I think what the fuss is really about is that Real wanted and alliance with Apple, without being very friendly about it by threatening to seek to team up with Microsoft if Apple refused, and Apple refused them anyway. Now Real has forced the issue. It seems that the CEO of Real Networks, Rob Glaser, is being very abrasive in his business dealings. Real has already been criticised for some of their questionable practices by consumers and doesn't seem to be a reputable company to be involved with.

    If Real can crack the iPod, then someone should be able to make tools for converting unprotected .rm formats to .mp3 because that doesn't circumvent any copy protection and shouldn't be subject to the DMCA according to Real's argument. Does anybody know of any?

  33. what the fuck is your point? by Ender+Ryan · · Score: 3, Insightful
    Is competing with Apple now a crime? That's the gist of your post, it seems.

    It's the same ridiculous bullshit you dumb Apple fanboys are always spouting. Everything Apple does is good, everything anyone else does is suspect.

    Apple products are generally pretty good; I like them. Apple as a company is ethically neutral, ie. amoral, or possibly even immoral as it seems many companies are. In fact, that is probably an apt description, as they are doing something wrong and probably just don't care. It's just all about money in the end.

    Why do you folks look at legal wranglings from Apple differently than those from everyone else? Answer: because you are pathetic "Ooh, shiny!" type people, and can't disassociate your love of Apple products from Apple the company.

    Christ on a crutch... Apple is just another company trying to make money. They don't give two shits about you. Buying products from them is purely a business transaction. Sheesh!

    --
    Sticking feathers up your butt does not make you a chicken - Tyler Durden
  34. Re:Hey let's all see how Real would react by Zebbers · · Score: 3, Insightful

    but thats not what they are doing....

    what the fuck are you talking about?

  35. What Apple is reallly worried about - MS by bstarrfield · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I doubt that Apple is truly concerned about Real. The bigger threat, and an obvious one, is Microsoft using Real's actions as a justification for an MS hack of the iPod. MS will not allow Apple to dominate the portable music space without putting up a tremendous fight.


    Consider this - in the next release of Windows (whenever the hell that will be), MS includes a small utility that lets you take your Windows Media files and place them on the iPod. MS has a great deal more clout with the RIAA / MPAA than Apple does, and is in a much better position to negotiate contracts. After exclusively securing lots of artists and albums, MS then integrates a "Microsoft Music Store" product into Windows (probably with a link on the desktop) - and thus the end of the iTunes music store, and the door is now open for an MS-inspired iPod competitor. After all, if you can purchase music from MS and it runs on the iPod, why not purchase a cheaper music player from MS?


    --
    /* Dang, I can't type that well. */
  36. Apple has the upper hand here... by chili_palmero · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I've been trying to understand myself why Apple would make such a stink about this and what they have to benefit from putting REAL under fire for DMCA violations.

    My thoughts - this isn't about selling songs it's a matter of codec -vs- codec. The ITMS is Apple's first major attempt at saturating the internet with the quicktime codec. It is my opinion that they see this opportunity as a way to put real to bed and position quicktime as a bigger player. If they choose to update the iPod firmware to prevent converted REAL files from playing that may in turn leverage REAL customers away from Rhapsody and over to the ITMS thus growing their user base and making quicktime & (AAC) a more popular format.

    Apple clearly has the upperhand in this dispute as the iPod is practically a household name now and REAL is furious because of their vulnerable position.

    Also note that after REAL begged, Apple gave REAL the green light to use AAC in their player and did they return the favor? NO they didn't, who's playing fair here is the REAL question... :)

  37. a few thoughts on the matter by isbhod · · Score: 2, Insightful

    as this is post is well into the 100's of posts i doubt it will be read but becasue i'm pig headed here goes anyway: Several months ago (not sure when) Real said that they where going to change their ways, and adopt a google-ish point of view: 'try to do no evil.' To this they have helped out the helix project, released real 10 codecs, and re-tooled their webpage to make finding and downloading their free player eaiser (guys you still need to work on that one). And now they are tryign to make thier format play on every player out there. This is the wisest move possible for a company trying to make money. This way they do not need to dump money into hardware design and manufacturing, for their own portable player. Also if you had a format that could be played on all portable players and therefor be easily "traded" between these players (as players will eventually get wifi or bluetooth or whatever soon to allow for song trading with the need of a desktop or laptop). This will help to insure that your format is the one choosen by the public. For i would not trade a song with some who used songs i could not play on my device. So they are beign very smart, and at teh same time giveing us choices but not shoving siad choice down our throats. i say bravo to them, but thi does not make up for the evils of your past Real, and the question remains can a leapard really change it's spots?

  38. Isn't this GOOD for Apple? by panZ · · Score: 2, Insightful

    It has been widely publicized that Apple does not profit much from the iTunes Music Store and it is more of an enabler to selling iPods with a hefty profit margin. If this really is the case, isn't it a good thing that the iPod can use more formats? I'm sure Apple is just using this press to make noise for itself but they seem to be contradicting themselves in grand public fashion. (This from an iPod, powerbook and iMac toting, .Mac, iTMS using Apple lover)

    --
    --Let's hack root on 127.0.0.1 --panZ
  39. Too bad it's not Mac Compatible by vivekb · · Score: 3, Insightful
    From Real's statement:
    Compatibility, choice and quality are critically important to consumers and Harmony provides all of these to users of the iPod and over 70 other music devices including those from Creative, Rio, iRiver and others

    Too bad Harmony is only compatible with Windows.

  40. Another angle: the new Sony Walkman by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    What if Real (or Apple) reverse-engineered the new HDD Sony Walkman to re-encode the Sony DRM to play .rm, .aac, or mp3 files? Would Sony threaten them with the DMCA and lawsuits, or would they say "that's great, now iTunes customers can play their music on our hardware! We'll sell more units!" How would Apple and/or Real react to that? How would you react to Sony's statements and actions?

    Just a different perspective...

  41. C'mon get Real... by inkswamp · · Score: 2, Insightful
    Yep, for the most part, I think companies using the DMCA to thwart this kind of move is ridiculous, Apple no exception, but at the same time I have to say to Real (and every other tech company out there): Come up with your own great ideas instead of latching on to the ideas of others like some kind of parasite.

    I mean, isn't that what companies in the tech sector, like Real, claim is so great about their sphere? Isn't innovation the Holy Grail of the tech world? So, Real, take your guys off trying to gang-hump iTunes and start brainstorming for your own Great Idea that everyone else in the world will come rushing to. You know, at one point Real had a serious head-start on everyone else in terms of streaming audio. Real should have been the ones to create the iTunes music store and the software and maybe even the iPod, but they squandered their lead. Now they want to latch on to the company who beat them at their own game? Too late. Get over it, stop embarrassing yourselves and move on to something else.

    --
    --Rick "If it isn't broken, take it apart and find out why."
  42. Doesn't even make sense by siskbc · · Score: 3, Insightful
    An addendum: Apple has worked damn hard to get the record labels to get on board with this while giving end users reasonable liberties with the music they paid for. This effort by Real undermines this process and will only serve to make record labels more unwilling to participate in electronic delivery and dissemination of media.

    First, that would only make sense the other way around - it would undermine the process if Real found a way to get Apple's media easily working on a non-locked-down player (not to mention which this is possible anyway). Getting more music to work on the ipod doesn't undermine anything from a DRM standpoint.

    And competition is a good thing. If this undercuts apple from a market share standpoint 1) that's good, because it means Real brought something to the table to compete with apple, and 2) it means that customers are still getting record-company-approved music from Real. Note this isn't about piracy, as one can encode pirated music and play that on your ipod anyway. This is about getting another DRM'd format working on the ipod, which record companies can't but love. In other words, this is in no way bad for the industry OR consumers. It's only bad for apple's monopoly.

    I know the pro-apple crowd here thinks that only Apple can bring music to the masses, but their (admittedly very good) first foray into music only buys them time. Expecting all other companies to hand them a permanant monopoly is absolutely mindless. Expecting all content to be explicitly tied to a specific hardware platform is pretty dumb; expecting the opposite (as you and Apple do) is indefensible.

    Disclaimer: I'm an apple owner. But it doesn't mean I have to rubber-stamp everything the company does.

    --

    -Looking for a job as a materials chemist or multivariat

  43. Selling an unsupported hack... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Hi. It seems to me that Real can sell whatever kind of files they want, as long as they don't say _anywhere_ that they are iPod compatible.

    If Joe Linuxbox wants to hack the iPod that he owns to play his own proprietary DRM'd OGG files, No problem.

    If he sells the files I still don't have a problem.

    If he starts selling them (without Apple's sayso) as iPod Compliant, then I have a problem.

    Same goes for Real. They can sell whatever files they want (with - of course - permission from the copyright holders), as long as people will pay for them.

    If these files happen to play on the iPod, no problem. If they start selling them guaranteeing that their unofficial/unsupported hack will play on the iPod, then they've overstepped their boundaries. If it's not on the Apple supported list of filetypes it can play, then you're in unsupported hack territory. Unsupported hacks are fine for the hobbyist, but reputable companies don't sell unsupported hacks. - Oh, wait... Nevermind.

  44. Real should get real! by rspress · · Score: 3, Insightful

    No matter what side of the debate you are on it is clear that real reverse engineered Apples fairplay. Real tried to get Apple to open up fairplay and let them compete with Apple in the music store business....when Apple said no, the released their hacked version. It is plain and simple. It is funny that real is complaining so much, the have pretty much ignored the Mac platform and updates to real player for the Mac have come slow and in some cases not at all.

    Some say that it is all about money...you are correct, Real is stealing from Apple and undermining Apples deal with the record companies....this can only help real in the long run. It is too bad if Real were a little more patient and waited till Microsoft came out with their music store they would have had a good shot at a legal fairplay license with Apple. Apple is beginning to license it to other companies and those that "play fair" with Apple will get a slice of the pie. Real did not and will lose because of that....If they record companies pull their support from Apple the only one to win from that happing is Microsoft and that won't be good for anyone!

  45. Here is why compatible DRM is interesting by Sloppy · · Score: 3, Insightful
    There is a loophole in the DMCA. I'm not talking about the interoperability exemption. I draw your attention to how "circumvention" is defined. Read it.

    If you can create a DRM system that is compatible with someone else's, then you can muddy the issue of whether or not a tool that bypasses that DRM, is primarily intended for "circumvention."

    Here's how it works. "Circumvention" is defined as bypassing a tech measure that limits access, without authorization from the copyright holder. For example, if you bypass CSS on a DVD whose copyright is held by Disney, and you don't have Disney's permission, then you have "circumvented" CSS. Likewise, if you bypass the DRM on a Metallica song that you bought from iTMS, without getting permission from Metallica's record label, then you have "circumvented" Apple's DRM system.

    The catch is this: look at who you're having to get permission from. It's not the party who invented or implemented the DRM system; it's the party who holds the copyright on the content. If you hold the copyright, then you can give yourself permission.

    For example, if you hold the copyright on a movie, and somehow get that movie onto a CSS-scrambled DVD, then when you DeCSS it, you are not circumventing CSS. You are bypassing it, but since you're doing it with authorization, it is not circumvention.

    If such bypassing is something that you often do, then it makes perfect sense for you to somehow obtain a tool to help you do it. In fact, if you're a hacker, then you're going to write a computer program to do it, the very first time. The use of this tool by you, is not prohibited by DMCA. Is trafficking in this tool prohibited by DMCA? Hmm... not so simple to say.

    It is assumed that all music sold by iTMS has its copyright held by parties who do not grant authorization to anyone, to bypass the DRM. But if anyone can implement that DRM, not just parties who have contractual agreements to have their music sold through iTMS (I'm talking about the "bad guys" in Slashdot groupthink here -- you know, the RIAA), then the assumption breaks down. To put it in layman terms: Cracking tools would not clearly be intended for copyright violation. They would have substantial non-infringing use.

    Well, how substantial it is, depends on the market sizes, I guess. If just a few hackers are DRMing their own music, judges are going to laugh at how substantial that is. But if it gets into the mainstream... holy crap. Is Real a mainstream player? DUH!!!

    Having the capacity to create DRMed content that is compatible with someone else's DRM system, has the potention to neuter DMCA's ability to apply to that DRM system. Real's action here, is a direct (though possibly unintended) threat to FairPlay. Apple now has to pay close attention to just what this Real software does. Does it just preserve DRM on files whose copyright is held by RIAA-members? Or might it do something else? Whatever the case may be, it's out of Apple's control, thus pretty scary. FairPlay is at risk of losing the DMCA protections that prohibit cracks.

    --
    As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.