Technology Review Profiles Miguel de Icaza

prostoalex writes "Technology Review has a feature story on Miguel de Icaza, currently Novell VP of Product Technology, but more known as the leader of Gnome and Mono projects. Miguel is the man Don Box would like to see joining Microsoft for his "amazing amount of raw energy". If you read through the Technology review article, you will see that de Icaza was actually turned down by Microsoft at some point."

Comments

hrm...

[hot_Karls_bad_cavern]

i seem to recall a Slashdot sig or two quoting Miguel saying that he was a MS clipy fan.

Many a /.'er would burn at the stake a man who had said so, but think for a sec before torching up those flames, kids.

Clippy might have sucked and annoyed many of you, but think about those moments when grammy was looking about for a movie of the grandkids.

i know, i know...stretch, strech, but ponder for me your grand parents for a sec: what do they read/write/view email with? Yeah, l33tz as you may be, gramps needs some some help from time to time: Gnome does that. Period.

Gripe and bitch on the 'spatial this' and 'spatial that' ...your world is *not* ruined by this man: change your config....ye that bitch and moan how easy it is to twiddle this and that in /etc/here or /etc/there. Yeah, i'm good with that, but gramps is not - what can he use? Gnome. Or Kde.

Save the zealotous mass, either is good, but Clippy has helped many a folk get "email"...your ub3r ass needs to realize these are not the folks that care for or about your sendmail/qmail/rfc gripes....they want the pics of the little grandkids.

Rip on Miguel as you like, but recall, this is a man that wants the linux desktop to prosper, regardless of what fanboy, ub3r wannabies latch on.

Let the quote go....listen to the spirit...you do want me to listen to the open source spirit don't you?

Re:hrm...

[Teckla]

Rip on Miguel as you like, but recall, this is a man that wants the linux desktop to prosper, regardless of what fanboy, ub3r wannabies latch on.

I have no desire to rip on Miguel; however, I think Miguel may have underestimated Microsoft.

My opinion is that .NET is a trojan horse: The "best" and "most up-to-date" implementation will always be on Windows, which will give Microsoft a great deal of marketing strength, even if Mono can run a large number of .NET applications (which seems a long ways off: Windows.Forms isn't "standardized" by ECMA, and it's very Windows-centric. Mono needs Windows.Forms in order to run GUI-based .NET applications).

And if the Linux/Mono combo ever becomes a serious threat, Microsoft can just beat Mono into submission with a fist full of patents.

Even though Java is proprietary, Sun has bent over backwards for years to get the community involved and keep the community involved. The ubiquity, robustness, and maturity of the Java Virtual Machine makes Java ready right now for what Mono may be ready for some day.

Don't be paranoid, but at the same time, don't dismiss Microsoft's pattern of abusive behavior over the years. Before you commit to Mono, think through all the alternatives first, and be sure you're not opening the city gates for a trojan horse.

Re:hrm...

[njcoder]

I couldn't agree more.

I always wonder what's going on with Microsoft and Mono. I don't think it's any secret that Miguel is pretty enamoured by MS. Microsoft has said some pretty nice things about him too. I know MS seems to be changing a little bit to not be quite the evil empire it was, or at least that's the perception their trying so hard to make, but.... You've seen the movies where one of the cool kids asks some homely, nerdy girl to the prom, only to find out it was some big joke at the end. If I was Miguel, I wouldn't spend too much on a dress.

Re:hrm...

[hunterx11]

No...the cool kid gets to like to nerdy girl, but then she learns it was a joke and blows him off. But then realizes how shallow he was and turns a new leaf and gets her back. Also he breaks up with his stupid cool friends who get totally burned for being stupid. Also it turns out the nerdy girl is hot but nobody realized because somehow movie stars are only hot if they aren't wearning glasses.

Re:hrm...

[k98sven]

And people are also using Windows, eating McDonald's hamburgers, and driving Fords. That doesn't mean that I have to as well.

Good. Because noone said you did, either.

Sheesh.

Re:hrm...

[IamTheRealMike]

Windows.Forms will be available in a few months.

Given the sheer size of the API, the breadth of its features and the fact that nearly all "real" .NET apps I've seen P/Invoke and use handles heavily, I think that's a severe over-estimate. I'd think it was more realistic to say we'd have a "good enough to run complex apps" with a bit of hacking in a few years.

Dropping Wine wasn't a smart idea either IMHO, the most common kind of .NET app on Windows is not likely to be a pure .NET app but rather an extended version of code that already exists. Certainly, native code will be reused. So I don't think there's any way to make a useful duplicate of the Microsoft stack without Windows emulation being involved at some point.

Re:hrm...

[smallguy78]

plus .net has been designed so that it is easily reverse engineerable (i.e. the reflection namespace). The source for all the classes is available to view via Lutz Roeder's reflector.

Unless they start obscuring their class libraries or completely redesign ilasm (which they won't as they've built longhorn on it), then MS seems more than willing to allow people to use + abuse .NET

Re:Miguel's great, but...

[Erwos]

"now he's reimplimenting their reimplimentation of Java"

You know, it's not like FOSS programmers just allot time to whatever the masses care about. They program to scratch their itches - and Java is obviously not Miguel's itch.

Don't view Mono as time taken away from kaffe/gcj/Parrot, because chances are, the time put into Mono wouldn't have gone into any of those.

-Erwos

Miguel was Gnome until recently.

[Adolph_Hitler]

The fork only just happened recently. Miguel did try to pump mono into Gnome and I'm sure he will release a ruined Microsofty version of Gnome at some point.

The man is founder of Gnome and his claim to fame was dissing KDE for not having the right ideals. Now its time to diss Miguel for doing something which is even more threatening than using the QT license.

Re:de Icaza is one of THE best coders I've ever me

[jacoplane]

These are baseless accusations. I would suggest you keep the conspiracy theories to yourself unless you have some evidence to back them up.

Maybe you are actually someone hired by Microsoft to spread FUD on slashdot!

Miguel's a leader of the community who deserves our respect. I think it's become clear over the years he could have made as much money as he wanted but chose to do what he felt was right.

Why he is important

[babasyzygy]

A lot of people denigrate Miguel as being a "Microsoft fan."

That's not fair. What he is, is a realist. The fact is that as long as Microsoft has a vast majority of the desktops out there, any competing system has a choice: between creating their own 31337 world where only the initiated may play, or instead creating systems that work and play well with others. By paying close attention to what system and paradigms users are used to - that is to say, that Microsoft ships - Miguel helps furhter the rapid adoption of Linux as a viable Windows alternative.

Why he is imporant is not just that he realizes this, but that he does something about it. Real hackers write code for their beliefs, as he does.

Re:Godwin's Law

[Anonymous Coward]

Dude, you'd make a horrible Nazi. It's Adolf Hitler.

Ian

Re:Miguel has told you why

[abigor]

Yeah, but a common complaint of CIL-based languages is that they all look suspiciously like C# in the end. Since I've never written Smalltalk et al. for .NET, I don't know, but it's certainly the case that the only widespread languages in use for the CLR are C# and VB.NET, so the multiple languages thing seems like a bit of a lame duck.

However, Python, which bears little resemblance to Java, runs very nicely on the JVM thanks to the Jython project, and can import and use Java's class libraries and so forth. So maybe the JVM (and Java byte code) is more generalised than you thought.

Whats better about Java?

[brunes69]

Why do so many people around here seem to think that Java is more free than .Net? This is far from true.

Java is just as patent-encumbered as .Net is. Hell, Sun sued *Microsoft* over some Java patents shortly ago. Who is to say they wouldn't do the same to gcj if it served their interests?

In fact, it is argueable that it is moreso since a single, commercial body controls it (Sub) whereas with .Net at least you have a standards body (ECMA) who has ratified the spec, which means that an independant implementation of the spec API (Mono) is less likely to have problems than an independant implimentation of the Java API.

The reality is that everyone is against .Net soley because it is made by MS. Yay for groupthink!.

Re:Whats better about Java?

[plierhead]

Why do so many people around here seem to think that Java is more free than .Net? This is far from true.

This academic argument gets trotted out over and over again, and its just as unconvincing every time.

Back here in the real world, where MS holds sway, the way things go is that if you write your code to run on an MS platform, then every single time someone runs it, MS's cash register gives out a big KA-CHIIING !!!!

But if you write it to run on Java, then that does not have to happen. It may do, but people have options.

So respectfully, Java is way, way more free than .Net.

Re:Whats better about Java?

[abulafia]

First, let me say that I hate Java, with a passion, as a language. The bugs, behavioural oddity, and general shoddy crap one has to put up with in a "modern" language that is supposed to have support for all the neat new bells and whistles appalls me. Also, I'll say I like Perl. There, that should have cut down on most of the readership...

Java is just as patent-encumbered as .Net is. Hell, Sun sued *Microsoft* over some Java patents shortly ago. Who is to say they wouldn't do the same to gcj if it served their interests?

You have a nice bundle of assumptions there, but when picked apart, they don't hold.

• patents. Yes, I believe Sun owns some, and Microsoft also owns some. A significant difference is that (a) Sun has a history of promoting open standards whereas Microsoft has a history of abusing them, and (b) Sun has no stated plan to extract growth via patents, whereas Microsoft does, and is clearly actively persuing those plans. Any large company that didn't hold a portfolio would not exist as a large company, and any company that wants to do something like Java would do well to defend it. Acting shocked that Sun is protecting a 10 year development and branding effort is either naive or disingenuous.
• Sun sued Microsoft over a contract dispute, not a patent dispute. I know many slashot denizens are not aware of the difference, but there is one, much like the difference between cows and rats - they're both mammals as opposed to reptiles (legal disputes vs. cameros and baseball bats), but you woudn't want to milk the wrong one. I'll be generous and assume you don't know the difference.
• Raising the spectre of the fact that someone with a history of open sharing might someday sue someone else as a defense of a monopolist who is going on an intellectual property hording rampage puts you in company with such staunch innovationists as Jack "VCRs are the Boston Stranger" Valenti. Is that really a point you'd like to push on with?

Attempting to dress dot-net up as something that will be a vibrant, open platform (one that thrives with or without Microsoft) is silly. Everyone knows it isn't. If sun dies tomorrow, Java will live on -- just look at it. I hope that Miguel knows what he is doing, and if he doesn't, fails to distract too many people. Java has warts, plenty of them. It works for many people, and the fact that dot-net is such a big talking-point is a great confirmation of this fact- why would MSFT bother if they had the market sewn up like they do with IE?

Just an addendum...

For my part, I do Java when I have to, and Perl the rest of the time. (C for interfacing with DBs, modifying code, whatever.) Perl's absolutely the best kept secret of development. I have Perl running in a couple top-100 sites. and many more instances elsewhere. Ask Amazon (I mention them because I've never done any work for them, and they use Perl -- HTML::Mason, actually). Desktop Perl is getting traction, too, lately... I built a Windows installer for a Perl desktop app the other day that, so far, the client is thrilled with. I expect this to be cheap growth for my company. So, from my perspective, please - keep writing PHP and VB. Please make my consulting gigs that much easier to land! The gaggles of people who hate Perl are my company's best competitve advantage.

Re:Whats better about Java?

[Yaztromo]

Why do so many people around here seem to think that Java is more free than .Net? This is far from true.

Java is just as patent-encumbered as .Net is. Hell, Sun sued *Microsoft* over some Java patents shortly ago. Who is to say they wouldn't do the same to gcj if it served their interests?

The difference is that Sun has generally played nice with others, wheras this is a rarity with Microsoft, who have a history of stabbing its own partners in the back when it suits them to do so.

Sun isn't in a monopoly position. Sun is practially forced to play nice with Java, because if it doesn't then Java developers will simply go elsewhere (don't forget, Sun has licensed their code and specifications to a number of other companies).

Microsoft, on the other hand, does have a monopoly on the underlying operating system that .NET is targeted towards, and they can (and in the past routinely have) played bait-and-switch by changing APIs mid-game just to prevent compatible versions from other companies (think Windows 3.1 errors when run on DR-DOS, constantly changing Win32s only to break Win32s applications from running on OS/2, and Microsoft's contract violations in modifying their Java implementation to prevent Java apps written on Windows from running correctly (or at all) on other platforms). They can afford to play "screw the developer", because they know most applications developers are trying to target Windows. Do it the Microsoft way, or get locked outt of the vast majority of systems.

And don't think for a minute that ECMA ratification of the language syntax is any saving grace. Microsoft can break that specification whenever they want to, with the only detriment to them being they can no longer claim to be standards compliant. Considering how often Microsoft has been willing to break standards to suit their own needs, I certainly wouldn't hold on to any sense of security just because the ECMA has ratified a standard. If Microsoft breaks that standard and stops claiming its .Net complies with the ECMA standard, every implementation that does comply with the standard will be hosed.

Sun doesn't have the same luxury. It wouldn't make any sense for them to go around breaking licensed implementations of Java, as it would only hurt themselves. Sun doesn't control all the underlying Operating Systems that Java runs on, so they don't have the same monopoly power. Sun needs to be on the ggood side of its developers, as it's the developers (and not the users) that make Java a popular platform. Users make Windows a popular platform (or, more correctly user ignorance), and if you're trying to target those users, you have to dance to whatever tune Microsoft decides to play.

Java may not be free, but you're not selling your soul to the devil by developing against it.

Yaz.

MDI is real

[Anonymous Coward]

I admire his energy, conviction and programming skills, but he is much too naive. I believe his intentions are genuine, but he's just too wrapped up in love of .NET to see the sand trap he is sinking into. Again, it's not a matter of "if" Microsoft bites back. It's just a matter of time.

Bravo, Miguel

[rnd()]

Miguel is working on one of the most important and exciting projects in the software world. Regardless of what Novell does or doesn't do with Mono, it will still be open source, and it will forever alter the competetive landscape (by increasing competition for Microsoft).

But you have to sell something eventually

[geomon]

I'm not sure that Miguel is up to the challenge. He can coast on his reputations only so long and then he will have to actually sell a product to a mass market.

That is when the rubber meets the road. And by the looks of his efforts, he will have a long row to hoe.

I've been on the receiving end of his marketing push and I am stunningly unimpressed. A person of his standing in the open source community could pack a room of eager buyers, and it did, but when you don't show for the meeting all that goodwill and reputation is gone.

I know it wasn't Miguel who failed to show, but the company he led arranged for someone from senior management to show for a sales meeting. They canceled the meeting with no warning. That reflects poorly on his (former) company and its management.

Now that they have been consumed by Novel, one would think that they would be interested in following up on that previous sales event to attempt to repair their damaged reputation. Not a word has arrived from Novel's corporate headquarters.

I guess we will just continue buying our Linux software and services from Red Hat.

Novell. Energy.

[Chuck Chunder]

I think it's worth pointing out that Novell are unlikely to have taken such a keen interest and involvement (and ownership) in Mono without a reasonable degree of risk and legal analysis. That doesn't mean we are 'safe' but it should put some perspective on the level of fear that some people seem to have.

Microsoft are certainly a competitor but the open source community will only be doing itself a disservice if fear of what Microsoft might do is an overriding principle. If you want to avoid treading on Microsofts toes you may as well just give up now.

If they want to control something they should be made to fight for it.

For me it is difficult to put my finger on exactly what has hampered Java's uptake in the general open source community. Java certainly has an open source community (as is evident from Apache projects etc) but it seems almost completely disconnected from the general open source community.

In part it must come down to Sun. It seems insane to me that sheer force of enthusiasm seems to striding towards making Mono an attractive and viable platform for GNOME/GTK development while years of Sun involvement in that project has done no such thing for Java. Quite a lot of posts say "Why not Java?" as an alternative for GNOME. I wonder the same thing, there just doesn't seem to be any energy for it. It's ludicrous to think that some sort of epiphany is going to suddenly divert Miguel or Novells energy towards Java. That energy will have to come from somewhere else. Simply standing there and saying "Look, Java!" isn't going to get anyone anywhere.

Re:Novell. Energy.

[JanneM]

For me it is difficult to put my finger on exactly what has hampered Java's uptake in the general open source community.

It's unlikely to be only one reason. These issues are big, complex with many aspects, and every developer that has made a choice in this field probably have their own unique blend of reasons.

For me, it has come down to a few things, but these hase tended to change as well.

I started playing with Java looong ago, like 1995ish, and actually wrote a small app as part of a summer job (which didn't really go anywhere). It was pretty horrible at the time. A big problem was that we were doing client-side apps, with an UI, and with Java and its UI libs, our then modern machines ended up with the performance of a CBM64, but with far uglier user interface. I still have dreams about that experience after a night with too much beer and rich food.

Today, the performance is better. Using Swing (is it? I mix them up), it tends to look better as well. But: any UI is still uncoupled from the rest of my desktop. I have my nice AA fonts everywhere - except in a Java app, which uses its own font settings and no AA. Controls, cutting and pasting and so on also reinforces that the app is just a free-floating guest on my machine and is not integrated one bit. Also, the runtime takes a _lot_ of resources - on disk and in memory. There sould be no need for that, really - all other VM:s I have (mono, perl, python) seem far less resource hungry.

Oh, and the install is also "too good" for my machine, and plonks down itself in its own private directory, not deigning to play nice with the rest of the machine. If all my other apps can have common resources in /usr/share, libraries in /usr/lib and so on, why can't Java?

OK, this sounds like a litany. It's not that bad, but you wanted to know why people aren't enamoured with Java the way they seem to become about mono, and this is my personal (partial) answer. In short, I write a GTK# app in mono, and it feels like a natural part of my desktop. I write it in Java, and it feels like an intruder.

Driving users to windows, where the tools are best

[acomj]

Mod me a flamebait, but I feel Mono is just driving users to windows where the best development tools are.

Development tools are one of microsoft stronger suits. Its going to be hard to get development tools that good for linux, so in the end more users will end up developing on windows.

I looked at mono for development, and ended up at java/eclipse. Eclipse is one of the most impresive open source projects since apache. I wish sun was more open and every linux distro would come with java preinstalled.

You can't win with either java or mono(c#).. Maybe its time ffor python/perl/php/ruby.....

Re:de Icaza is one of THE best coders I've ever me

[dbIII]

I DO however question his judgement to kind of jump into the MS camp with MONO/.NET emulation,

It's the sort of stuff he's liked all along - as using CORBA instead of sockets and gconf resembling the registry has shown - and the best of luck to him. It's in the best intrest of everyone but opposing salesfolk for MS to have a good operating system.

Major Tom to Ground Control

[ThoreauHD]

Hi,

I was just perusing the comments, and it seems a good bit of you folks are convinced that Icaza is a visionary and Microsoft .NET is the best thing since Java.

And the people that aren't "getting it" seem to be these people. If you really want to "get it" see the Samba project. That cat and mouse game has been going on for the better part of a decade.

Mono is a bridge to .NET. .NET is Microsoft's answer to the screwjob that is DCOM. You will need .NET/Mono installed on client workstations to talk to a Microsoft Server based application. Mono can be blown up at any time simply with a patch. Is this confusing any luminaries out there? Is this too deep?

You forget that anything proprietary is limited to the goodwill of the owner. Icaza reminds me of the early days of Ransom Love's Caldera project. He admired Microsoft and attempted to emulate them. End game- Microsoft 1 Caldera 0. Mr. Love has had a change of tune since the inevitable happened.

In any case, if Icaza went to work for Microsoft, I would not at all be suprised. And it would not affect my plans for the Linux server and client in the slightest.

Re:de Icaza is one of THE best coders I've ever me

[anothy]

OMG.

i'm picking on you because you exemplify superbly what's true of most of this thread, and half the posts on this story: intense fanboyism. you deduced that he was a great coder from a short conversation? what'd he do, spend the whole time reciting the Mono headers? great coder, lousy conversationalist. you can't figure out how good a coder someone is without looking at their code ! and we'll ignore for the moment this flatly stupid idea that LoC/hr is some measure of a coder's skill. all the "he's nothing short of amazing" stuff just doesn't "take" without some rationale behind it, all of which is totally missing from most of the fanboy posts. "he's smarter than me, he must know what he's doing" is triangulated somewhere between funny, stupid, and dangerous. reserve judgment for people with a proven track record, but even Ken and Dennis make mistakes.

and, speaking of track records, anyone know what the current score is for people or organizations that try to "play nice" with our "friends" in Redmond? (hint: it ain't pretty)

i'm amazed by both the number of "he's the only one that gets it" (c'mon, the only one? there's an awful lot of bright people out there) and "he just doesn't get it" posts. people on both sides seem really animated. i've never met the guy, but most people i know who have ended up kinda violently opposed to him. what is it about the guy that inspires such strong emotion? is it just the fact that he's working on topics that touch on sensitive areas for many FS/OS folks (MS, and playing nice with them)? or is de Icaza the new RMS (people seem to have mostly mellowed about him)?

i've got mod points, and i was gonna try to even this thread out some, but i couldn't figure out where the -1 Fanboy rating was.

Re:de Icaza is one of THE best coders I've ever me

[thelexx]

"I know that since he's smarter than me he must be doing the right thing"

One of the single most retarded things I've ever heard.

Has miguel ever had an original idea of his own?

[Phil John]

...from where I'm standing, Miguel is not an innovator, he just says "wow cool, wish I could have thought of that " and copies it.

Now I'm not bashing his managerial skills (he got mono done very quickly) or his coding skills, but open source needs idea people, not the "me too"'s of this world.

Re:Has miguel ever had an original idea of his own

[winfx]

Point to me a succesfull OS project that has just "idea people"
OS in full of ideas, but lacks strong managers to give solid directions.