Northface University - Computer Science in Half the Time?

prostoalex writes "Associated Press runs a nationwide story on Northface University. The school, founded by a pair of venture capitalists and former technology chief found a niche with its highly intensive curriculum and corporate software development specialization. For example, a BSCS degree can be completed in a little over 2 years, and it comes with IBM's WebSphere and Microsoft's MCSD certification. Northface is also promoting its corporate partnerships, which allow current students to feel more secure about future employment. Grady Booch from IBM is quoted to be 'jazzed up' about the program, although there are many who oppose such approaches to college education."

Comments

Everything will be half

[suso]

Half the time
Half the money
Half the college experience.

Re:Everything will be half

[ari_j]

Right, because Physics, Calculus, Economics, and even Latin have no bearing whatsoever on real-world employment.

Re:Everything will be half

[jridley]

The point of normal colleges is not entirely to produce a working machine, but to give people exposure to a variety of viewpoints and ideas.

I personally enjoyed my non-major classes every bit as much (in a lot of cases, more) as my CS classes. Hell, the CS classes were largely boring, I already knew a lot of that stuff. The physics, biology, history, etc classes were where I really learned stuff.

Sure, I don't use biology in my job. I do have an actual life though, and friends who sometimes want to talk about things other than computers (believe it or don't on /.).

If all you want is get a piece of paper so you can get someone to pay you to warm a seat, knock yourself out.

Re:Everything will be half

[Shadow Wrought]

Half the money

At $60,000 for 2 years, it certainly doesn't sound like half the money. A four year degree from the Art Institute of Portland in game programming or game art is $64,000 for four years. Although the extra couple of years might seem like fluff there is alot to be said for the knowledge and thinking skills that can be obtained during that time.

But that's my $.02

Re:Everything will be half

[lucabrasi999]

Learning how to program is NOT the same as teaching you how to THINK!

Anyone can learn how to program in any language. I'd rather hire someone that has had a liberal arts degree. I can always teach them Java, ABAP, C++, or whatever. At least with a liberal arts degree, they've learned somehting about thinking and planning and collabaration. They may have even taken some business or finance classes, where they can at least understand that debits are supposed to always equal credits.

Re:Everything will be half

[op00to]

The philosophy at the Universities that I've been exposed to isn't so much to expose people to differing viewpoints, although that is an integral part of the learning experience. In my opinion, I feel that by requiring students to take English, Calculus, Physics, and all the other basics not only requires some sort of literacy (No, C comments are not writing!) but teaches the student how to learn rather than merely teaching a trade. By learning how to add to their own knowledge, they are prepared to go for further studies, or to develop themselves in the worksplace. If you've never written a long essay, or done scientific experiments, you're probably missing out on a big chunk of experience that is difficult to gain in the real world, and it definately puts you at a disadvantage to people who have this experience.

Remember, eventually, there will be another IT crash. Just studying CS gives you little head start on another career. If you think school is hard, changing careers 10 years down the line is even harder.

Re:Everything will be half

[dup_account]

Fine, then it's not a college education... It's trade school.... If you just want to get a job, then go to a trade school. If you want an education, and have the benefits of an education, then go to college/university.

Our College/University system is getting watered down as more and more kids just want to get in/out and get a job...

Re:Everything will be half

[AKAImBatman]

While I agree with what you're saying, this change does have me a bit fearful. College curriculums have been slowly dumbed down as companies demand trained code monkeys from these institutions, instead of highly educated individuals with free-thinking ability. The result is that too many of today's college grads couldn't find a binary tree structure if it bit them in the ass. They just put one line of code after another and work on tying their shoes. The problem is, I could hire a fourteen year old to do the same thing.

As for degrees as job qualifications, this is seriously beginning to irk me. On one hand, companies supposedly want the best and brightest employee possible. On the other hand, they shirk the guy who's got the experience, the knowledge, and the proven ability but no degree, for some degreed idiot who doesn't know the first thing about software development.

Of course, these are the same companies that think that more warm bodies == faster development. In their never-ending pursuit for more warm bodies, they've outsourced to more warm bodies in India so that they can get even more warm bodies for the same price! Next they'll cut costs by going for more cold bodies!

Maybe Google will finally teach the business world something about proper engineering. Then again, maybe not.

Re:Everything will be half

[FirstTimeCaller]

I really don't think that I could have built up an acceptable level of tolerance to alchohol in only two years. Heck, it took me over five years (but I did get a MS out of it too).

Re:Everything will be half

[tchuladdiass]

...dealing with idiots...
That would be business psych.

Re:Everything will be half

[Theatetus]

i think you're wrong. that "well-roundedness" part is designed to provide the lubrication for the working machine.

Well, actually, in theory it's because we are expected to choose our own goverment and therefore need to be able to think on our own.

i'd rather spend two years concentrating on the skillset that i intend to employ professionally, and then, if i feel like it, educate myself on the other stuff.

Well, it's your life. But as someone employed as a sysadmin with a Liberal Arts degree, I would humbly suggest that you might think about reversing that order. Get an education first, then worry about getting job skills. An education will let you figure out what you actually want out of life; you can then decide what if any employment will help you achieve those goals.

And broad education is *not* about "people skills" particularly. It's about breadth of knowledge, ability to tie together ideas from different fields, and ability to learn diverse subjects quickly. Or, as they used to say at my alma mater, it's about becoming a free and happy human being.

Personally I think the university in TFA sounds stupid. They may call that degree a BSCS, but it's just not a Bachelor's degree. A Bachelor's degree is not an industry certification. It's not an industry certification. It's not a sign of fitness to work at a particular job. It's a sign that you dedicated 4 years of your life to beer^H^H^H^H learning in an at least nominally interdisciplinary environment.

Northface is a trade school. There's nothing wrong with trade schools. But it shouldn't call itself a university or its certification a "bachelor's degree". The article even says it's not intended for students out of high school but rather to retrain current workers -- people who, hopefully, already have an education.

Re:Everything will be half

[Anonymous Coward]

Remember, eventually, there will be another IT crash. Just studying CS gives you little head start on another career. If you think school is hard, changing careers 10 years down the line is even harder.

Even more so, most people change careers regardless of the market. A lot of people are in CS because they enjoy it, but a lot are there for money. Even the ones that enjoy it might not forever. When they see a chance to do something they've always dreamed of, they are going to want to know about more than just programming. Someone that hasn't had economics, or statistics can be crippled in many real world situations (and often not even know it. If they knew it, they could learn.)

Extra exposure also gives you insight to do your programming. Sure, you can write code to spec without knowing what it's doing, but you can make better designs if you understand the problems you're working on. The design team for an accounting package should involve accountants, and programmers who know something about accounting.

I also question whether they drop the less used CS stuff, too. I got my mechanical engineering degree, and, as they say, I wan't immediately useful as a designer. They could have made the curriculum more practical, and I would have been more useful straight out of school, but it would have sacrificed theory and fringe situations. Part of what sets me apart from the non-engineer people around work is knowing the theory, so I understand what's happening and why, and can design better for it. The fringe situations are those rare occurrances that we almost never see, but when they happen they're very hard to figure out, or they could kill someone. I have to keep those in the back of my head, just in case they ever come up.

This school sounds like a glorified trade school. It's very useful, and I'm glad somebody is teaching people how to program, but I don't know if they should call it a BS degree if it isn't well rounded in worldly matters. Someone with a degree should be educated, not just skilled.

Re:Everything will be half

[AuMatar]

I used calculus just yeasterday- I needed to code a program, and there were two answers- an n time solution, or take the derivative on paper, and plug into the resulting equation in constant time.

Physics- daily. Of course I work in an embedded field, so I deal with physical hardware every day.

Accredited?

[ari_j]

So? Is it accredited? I got a BSCS plus math and a thorough liberal arts education in 6 semesters. I'll be impressed when they teach you something other than another fad technology. As too many people here know: a degree is not only not everything, but it's hardly anything in this field.

Technical school?

[jridley]

That's nice and all, but don't confuse it with a 4-year university, unless they're doubling up everything. A technically intensive degree doesn't produce the same kind of individual that a normal 4 year degree, with a variety of disciplines and experiences, provides.
Taken in that light, 2-year technical schools are nothing new. Any university could get you through in 2 years if you took nothing outside your major.

Interesting, but Not Good

[cephyn]

Well it sure is an interesting idea...and I'm sure many will jump on it. But in my experience, turboing a CS course of study is bad. There's a lot to said for maturity and experience. I know I had a lot of trouble keeping up with a normal program -- it just moved so fast and skimmed so much -- but now that I have time and experience under my belt, it all seems so much easier and more clear. Sometimes taking your time is a good thing, and I think that getting a degree is one of those things that should take a while -- experience is often the most valuable asset.

Another One

[mzkhadir]

Oh my god, another Devry

Nitpicking Symantics

[Doesn't_Comment_Code]

...can be completed in a little over 2 years, and it comes with IBM's WebSphere and Microsoft's MCSD certification.

I've said this before, and will again. A collection of certificates is not the same as a computer science degree.

Learning to program or to operate a specific set of programs if valuable, don't get me wrong there. But that is not the same thing as understanding the workings of a computer (which I consider Computer Science).

Learning a set of skills is very job-applicable, and very practical. But it should not be called computer science.

this is just a damn shame

[Altus]

these kids are going to come out of school with a CS degree and very little of the knowledge that a COMPUTER SCIENTIST should have.

Now Im not saying that there isnt a place for a 2 year degree that is focused on programming for corprate america. corprate america needs more programmers, especialy ones that have been custom made for the type of work that corps need, but to call them CS majors? I have a hard time beliving that they will realy learn much of the science side of CS in 2 years, while also training in 2 certifications.

Perhaps Im wrong and this cariculum will teach excelent data structure usage, and algorithim analysis and AI and compiler design and low level architecture. But at this point i kind of doubt it.

Re:this is just a damn shame

[GileadGreene]

Perhaps Im wrong and this cariculum will teach excelent data structure usage, and algorithim analysis and AI and compiler design and low level architecture. But at this point i kind of doubt it.

Looking at their curriculum course descriptions, I'd say that your doubts are well founded. Looks like a trade school with a few classes in logic and discrete math thrown in. I don't see much on software engineering (aside from lip service to "the complete software life cycle"), let alone any actual computer science.

Is a BSCS just BS?

[grunt107]

Just taking my experience of job hunting just out of college, a CS bach. degree is not that desirable to businesses.

Unless changed in the last few year's, the 'Big 6' liked anything but CS majors. EDS (I know bad example) even went so far as to prefer MUSIC majors. Their argument was that anyone can be taught to code - the 'free thinkers' in the BA degrees were where their employees resided.

Add to that the out-of-country outsourcing (where specific programming disciplines are taught), and a BSCS does not appear to be a good career path, 2 OR 4 years.

What they cut

[MarsDefenseMinister]

Liberal arts. That's the part of a college education that teaches people to think for themselves, and to be generalists.

Nothing wrong with that, but nobody should be under the impression that this is as good as a traditional degree with a full curriculum. Unfortunately, the students who graduate from such a program will think they are well rounded, and well educated. That's because they will lack the thinking tools needed to realize that they don't have a full education.

Secret revealed

[Otter]

A 52-ounce mug of Mountain Dew stands at the ready as Northface University instructor Carolyn Sorensen helps student Robert Pace, left, with his project Friday, July 16, 2004, in South Jordan, Utah. In addition to the soft drink, other popular refreshments packed with caffeine that many students prefer include Dr. Pepper and Coca-Cola.

Apparently that's their secret -- double the caffeine, halve the time needed for a CS degree. Or is a 52 ounce Mountain Dew now a standard beverage for normal college students?

Yawn.

[Marc Slemko]

How is this a Computer Science curriculum?

Course Descriptions

So ... the first course teaches all of "software development life cycle, OO Concepts, introductory Object Role Modeling (ORM), Entity Relationship Diagrams (ERD), HTML, ASP.NET, ADO.NET, Visual Studio Enterprise Architect, C#, Structured Query Language (SQL), Microsoft SQL Server, and XML basics.". That is quite the ... course.

Nothing new here, just another technical institute trying to sell their courses as something they aren't... I have no idea if it is a good program or not, but it isn't a CS degree.

This is NOT Computer Science

[hattig]

This is going to be a degree in Computer Programming, or Computer Administration at the most.

These people are not going to be taught a wide spread of stuff like in Computer Science that goes from lots of maths and theoretical stuff through to real world stuff through to hardware and all that.

You can but hope that this course will create people that are more than unthinking code monkeys or button clickers.

Wow

[foidulus]

I looked at the CS requirements, a whopping 12 credits of math(or maths for those of you outside the US). I had that many math credits at the end of my freshman year at Penn State, and had to take much more. The theories behind CS is math, and if they want to do anything but be a code monkey, they will need more than "Introduction to Calculus", most CS geeks took that in high school...
If you want to get through your undergrad program really quick, take the AP tests, don't go to some fly-by-night college....

Let me guess

[themoodykid]

Their textbooks are the "Teach Yourself XYZ in 24 hours" series?

Re:it's a good idea

[Bull999999]

Personally i'm sick of university, i was sick of it after the first year and I wish it was over.

Maybe the reason why many employers are requiring 4 year degress in the IT field is to see if you have what it takes to work through the boring stuff. If you are sick of school after only one year, how would you last 30+ years in the work force?

Anyone remember Ars Digita University?

[uncadonna]

It seems to me that this discussion will be remiss if it fails to compare and contrast Phil Greenspun's idealistic Ars Digita University which attempted to deliver an MIT-equivalent CS education in a year.

Some of the best coders I've ever encountered were under 20. It doesn't really take that long for someone with the right sort of intelligence to develop the skills. So the idea of a two-year crash course isn't unreasonable.

The real problem is, that sort of intelligence isn't all that rare. Which is why a coding career isn't as lucrative as it once was, I guess. These crash courses beguile their audiences into thinking they can be fabulously wealthy just as coders. You need a great deal more to convert computing skill into something other than a moderately paid high stress job.

Know computing, but also know something else, is my advice for most people. What else? Something that you can apply the computing to, basically. There's a lot of choices. Pick one.

trade school

[Doc Ruby]

That's not college. It's a trade school. A vocational program. That's very useful, maybe more useful than college in starting to work a job. But its value plays out fast, even the most of the training itself becoming obsolete within a few years. Learning to become an independent adult in college lasts a lifetime, and makes for a better career. Especially when your career, or industry, changes. That's why spreading this education over twice as long (or more ;) in college, along with a variety of other courses and students, is so much more valuable. But the trade school is better than no higher education than just high school, and probably a more realistic path for thousands of people each year than expensive, and largely mediocre, colleges. And as a post-liberal-arts degree, it sounds like the best balance.

CS accreditations are worthless anyway.

[emil]

Since I graduated in 1995, tuition at the University of Iowa has tripled. It has done so because the school has locked itself into a number of expensive construction projects and is not able to reduce its cash flow needs to match the decreasing state revenue.

From what I can tell, the quality of instruction has not tripled since my graduation. Even moreso, students that I have advised to pursue Oracle DBA certification as technical electives have been repeatedly refused, even though the university listed Oracle certification as for-credit courses.

The CS departments of most universities have been bought off by Microsoft to the extent that they already spend over a year teaching Visual Basic. They do not use open tools, and their administrative structure reflects this close-minded and obsolete path.

IMHO, State Universities are run in a cartel system that has seen its fair share of waste and corruption. Any ideas for a system that could effectively compete with the public university cartel would be welcome indeed.

It is not a computer science degree

[timrichardson]

E. Dijkstra: Computer Science is no more about
computers than astronomy is about telescopes

Anything that brags about java and .net certification is not a computer science course. It is probably not even a software engineering course.
It is probably a programming course.