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TiVo, MS, and the War for the Living Room
r-blo writes "Hot off his in-depth comparison of TiVo vs. Microsoft Media Center, Engadget has Thomas Hawk following up with ten things each that TiVo and Microsoft need to do to win the War for the Living Room. It won't be easy (like TiVo offering their OS as software for the PC. Not going to happen.) but I've got a feeling they might be better off listening up. Especially TiVo, since we're all rooting for them anyway."
Will never, ever happen. Not in an non-DRM format like MP3, anyway. The RIAA would be alllll over that.
Almost everything he talked about is in someform of completion on the http://www.mythtv.org/.
Number one for both is easy - establish partnerships with cable / satellite companies.
TiVo is ahead here thanks to DirecTV but that is looking sketchy since DirecTV's NDS subsid. has DVR technology of their own. POD, cablecard, and other open standards aren't even off the ground yet.
Within two years both TiVo and (especially) MS will be trailing in marketshare to cable-delivered boxes (Digeo's Moxi, Motorola 620x, SA Explorer 8k) with built-in conditional access.
Think no upfront investment, no change in service, and ten bucks a month.
Pity for TiVo - thanks to the brand recognition, people will be recording their shows with box XYZ and still saying "haven't watched it yet, but TiVo'ed it so don't tell me."
Overall I thought the article was pretty good, but I feel it was off on a few points. I'll admit I own a TiVo, so I am going to focus more on them since I am familiar with the device/service.
MicrosoftPoint 2: The article suggests 4 tuners, but how many should be recordable at one time? The HDTV TiVo unit can only record from any two tuners at a time. Does anyone know if current hard disks could handle two HD streams and two analog streams? I think this is the reason why TiVo only allows recording on two of the 4 tuners in their HD model at any given time.
TiVoPoint 2: TiVo has already announced "TiVoToGo" which will implement what the article is requesting. It is scheduled for release this fall. The reason the ports are disabled on the Hughes model is because of DirecTV - not TiVo. TiVo has stated many times that if they had things their way, the DirecTV models would have all the features the standalone models do.
Point 3: I'm not really sold on needing a DVD burner in every unit if you can download the files to a PC to burn them to DVD like the author wants in the second point. If I have a DVD burner in my PC, I would rather not have to pay for another in my TiVo. I think the units should be available, but I don't think they should all be forced to have them.
Point 4: The HDTV unit from TiVo will almost surely have the Home Media Features and TiVoToGo. Again, the only reason the DirecTV HDTV unit does not is because DirecTV wants it that way for whatever reason.
Point 7: It might be a great idea to offer an external USB 2.0 add-on that you could use for simply holding media that has been already recorded. Meaning the TiVo still records to the internal hard disk, and manages everything like it always has, but you can copy a show to the external disk to free space on the internal disks. This saves TiVo from some tough questions (are the USB 2.0 ports fast enough for direct recording, how to handle if someone yanks the drive in the middle of a recording, which shows get stored where, etc), but still allows folks to get the additional space they need.
Point 9: I think TiVo's acquisition of Strangeberry will help implement features like these. Business 2.0 has an article right now that talks about what the Strangeberry purchase is bringing to the table for TiVo. Link to cut/paste of article (Business 2.0 is non-free/registration).
I have been using Windows Media Center for several months now and have been very pleased with it. Its great having your recorded shows available on your home network to watch on any computer in the house whenever you want, not to mention being a huge digital jukebox -- just throw in as many hard drives as you can and you've got true media "center" capabilities, you can't say that for a TiVo.
The biggest advantage the Media Center has is that you can play any AVI files you want as long as you have the codec installed. And the remote control works with every proprietary IR device (ie cable boxes) that I throw at it.
I tried MythTV, and while its a great project, XP MCE has it beat at this point in time by far, but I think that may be mostly due to most hardware drives being written for Windows only.
Although I'm looking forward very much to MCE 2005, in all fairness I haven't tried a TiVO, and the TivO's dual-tuner functionality is something that the MCE misses. However, when you're using a digital cable box, having a second tuner doesn't matter anyway.
Good article. It's amazing what happens when you actually read it!
However, the article makes it seem as if there is only TiVo and MS Media Center. I rent a box from my cable company that records two high def channels at once. However, I wish it had more features listed in the article.
It would be nice to be able to burn TV shows to DVD, for example. My wife keeps recording shows that she is never going to watch and keeps them on the HDD forever (You've Got mail, Down With Love, etc). I'd like some way of backing these up to free up the drive space.
I will not purchase a TiVo because you have to pay for the unit and then pay for the service (right?). That's bogus in my opinion. If I'm going to pay a monthly fee, then I should have the box provided. Also, I'd want the DVD burning ability that TiVo will not provide me.
I won't buy TiVo nor Media Center because I don't know if they are 100% with my digital cable. Will I be able to record two shows at once or record oneand watch another? Not if it has to change the channel on my existing cable box. Will it be able to change the channel on the cable box? Can I throw my cable box out and just use the TiVo unit or Media Center CPU in it's place? I can't find answers to these questions and won't spend the money on either of these units until I know for sure that they will be an improvement over my existing PVR unit.
Finally, the radio idea sounded great. I could record the radio stuff I miss because I do stupid things like work and watch TV.
There is no "I disagree" mod for a reason. Flamebait, Troll, and Overrated are not substitutes.
If anyone RTFA (I know it's early in the discussion), the man is insane! He wants both companies to pretty much allow copying and sharing of files....I bet Jack Valenti and Hillary Rosen both shit a brick after hearing this guy.
/.) of DRM, he doesn't mention it anywhere in TFA. Sharing/fair use seems to be encouraged...
:)
Examples -
"Create a "My Radio" option and a "My Radio" guide....These files should be saved to MP3 and be portable. "
Heh..."should be saved to mp3 and portable"...Might as well give a big middle finger to the RIAA.
"Provide Ethernet connectivity to their HDTV unit and include the ability to share recorded files with a Windows-based PC. "
While this doesn't run entirely afoul (see previous TiVo sharing articles of yore on
Two more -
"Provide a DVD burner with all units. Copying should be as simple as selecting a program and pressing "Burn to disc" on a menu."
and
"Provide the ability to connect external hard drives."
The RIAA/MPAA/AAA would be up in arms over this....It will never happen - They'd rather eat their own sh!t than allow for fair use and sharing to actually occur...The man has valid (and good) points, but none of them will ever happen in corporate-controlled America.......
But a geek's wet dream if you ask me
My MythTV HowTo
Replay TV
TiVo had shown a reference HDTV unit back at the CES show in January 2003. However, no manufacturers were interested in building it. The DVR market is still small, and HDTV is an even smaller piece of that.
As far as limitations on the HR10-250 unit, you can probably blame DIRECTV. Their Series2-derived DVRs have USB ports that can be used for HMO (Home Media Option) but DTV has chosen not to do so. If you can find 4.0, you can install it on your HDVR2 and enable HMO. So the missing HMO functionality is not a technology issue.
Putting a DVD burner in each unit would be handy, but would also increase the cost. DVRs still aren't in widespread use and keeping the price point high won't help.
Finally, TiVo did announce TiVoToGo, which will allow you to play content on your PC.
0. Earn consumers' trust.
I personally don't trust MS very much. In addition, they've had a history of choosing convenience over security, and they're business model leaves a lot to be desired. Their products seem to be built on a methodology of expedience rather than robustness. MS also has a habit of trying to think for the consumer, and deal harshly with anyone who tries to move beyonds the bounds of the expected customer experience. Their EULAs are oppressive.
My gaming PC I can handle updating all the time and not using very much. My TV and DVR are "appliance-grade" items, and I expect them to work without fail, all the time. I don't see MS delivering there.
And even if they did, I wouldn't trust them with something as innocuous as knowing my family's TV viewing habits.
-B
Ash and Hickory, straight-grained and true, make excellent bludgeons, dandy for the cudgeling of vegetarians.
Tivo should consider making business and selling their machines in Europe, Asia^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H the rest of the world too. The War in the Living Room is not only in North America. Is it?
Anyway, in Europe, AFAIK, it's too late. It has been a long wait for such Tivo-like products, but from now on the market exists here for 2 years.
Mayfoev [Damn Frenchy]
Re: TiVo offering its software for PCs.
...
OK, r-blo is (probably definitely) right that TiVo isn't about to do this, but just think if they did. There are all kinds of caveats that throw this from mere hypothetical to deep pipedream, *but*
- if it was boldy and straightforwardly limited to a certain subset of hardware, "guaranteed to work only with the following video cards and the listed capture devices" etc, and
- if it had just a few amenities *not* offered in the dedicated set-top box (say a TiVo-branded version of Firefox, including Chatzilla and some useful extensions and plug-ins for, say, bittorrent)
- it could deal well with removable storage - adding disks via USB2 or Firewire or SATA or whatever is the smartest fast, external bus
Then I think there'd be an small but real market for it. Most people would probably want the conventional, stereo-component TiVo, but I might pay for TiVo's software if it made easier the process of creating a Linux-based, good-quality, well Q-A'd PVR.
timothy
jrnl: http://tinyurl.com/c2l8yr / foes: http://tinyurl.com/ckjno5
Listen up: In Australia, "rooting" is a slang verb which means "to have sex with".
This is why it is rare (though not unheard of) to hear of a devoted Australian cheerleader rooting for her whole team.
Perhaps this explains why we don't have Tivo in Australia?
Do you or your partner snore? - Visit www.snoring.com.au
"The digital video recorder revolution is on, with two players, Microsoft and Tivo, having emerged as the most likely candidates to dominate "
Yeah, and let's not forget Ultimate TV flopped miserably. However it should be noted that Microsoft usually gets things right on the third revision. So maybe after the media pc flops the next thing they come out with will soar.
Some comments about the article:
"2. Offer quad (four) tuners - two for regular broadcasts and two for HDTV. There should never be recording conflicts."
If 1 doesn't work, where do you come up with 4? Can you never have any conflicts with 2 tuners, 3, no apparently 4 is the magic number to defeat conflicts. What if I want to record 3 things at the same time! Holy cow, let's go to 6, or 8, or a ba-jillion.
"10. Provide a host of additional remote services including email, voicemail, caller ID, vehicle tracking, home automation (lights, home alarm security, window shades, thermostat), and "My RSS" feeds. "My Art" should also be included. Wasn't Bill Gates running around buying up all the digital rights to fine art a while back? "
This guy is obviously confusing his devices. You start integrating too many features and your device looks less like a simple and straight forward toaster and more like an jerry-rigged explosive device.
Things tivo apparently needs to do:
"2. Provide Ethernet connectivity to their HDTV unit and include the ability to share recorded files with a Windows-based PC. "
This has already been announced, it's called TiVo2Go.
"3. Provide a DVD burner with all units. Copying should be as simple as selecting a program and pressing "Burn to disc" on a menu."
This is a complaint? There exists TiVo's with DVD Burners and this guy is saying that people can't afford the addition of a DVD Burner shouldn't be able to buy a TiVo? Will you start paying out for these people? Part of what makes IBM compatible computers so attractive is you can get what you need without having to buy the top of the line hardware/features - like you can save a bundle by skipping the DVD burner option at dell.com.
"4. Create a "My Pictures" and "My Music" option for their HDTV units that can access a music and picture library via an Ethernet connection. The current HDTV unit does not allow the TiVo Home Media option."
This guy is missing a clue stick. The HDTV unit is licensed to DirectTV - so this issue is their problem, not TiVo's; remember the guy's initial comment, "like TiVo making a version of their software for PCs? Not going to happen." Ummm, what the @#$#? What makes you think this? TiVo has already licensed their software to manufacturers. What makes you think they wouldn't port it to a PC if there was a market for it? Furthermore, if they did port it to the PC and your PC didn't have a DVD burner would this guy blame TiVo for Dell selling you a computer without a DVD Burner?
"6. Create WiFi-enabled devices to access TiVo media from any television in the house. I would also mention this as a must for Microsoft as well, were it not for the fact that they have already announced that this technology is on it's way in the form of "extender" units due out by the end of this year."
You can buy a second Series 2 TiVo and whammo, you get this feature. Who said the "extender" unit is cheaper/better than just buying a second TiVo?
"7. Provide the ability to connect external hard drives. The robust 250GB drive on my Hughes HR10-250 will be a dinosaur in a few years, and you shouldn't have to hack into your TiVo box to upgrade storage."
While agree with the thought here his reason for it is absurd. Just because the drive will be old doesn't mean it will store less shows! In a few years you'll still be able to store just as many shows. TV is not like your PC. If the TV stream gets larger then in a few years your TiVo simply won't be able to record the larger stream (without down-converting to an older analogue/digital format) whether you have a bigger drive or
I've used Windows Media Center, Tivo, and a ReplayTV extensively, and while Tivo has the nicest looking interface, I've settled on the ReplayTV.
First off, (in medium quality), the ReplayTV records in MPEG-2, at a bitrate and resolution that (usually) follow the DVD spec. Sometimes the bitrate goes a little out of spec, but that's not too hard to do. No DRM, and the files can be streamed over the network. Having an ethernet port come standard was a good idea.
Automatic Commercial Skip, and Internet sharing are very nice features, trivial to re-enable. Also, adding a second hard drive took less than 5 minutes, only needing a Y power adapter, an IDE cable, and RTVpatch.
Also, the MyReplayTV site lets me change which shows are recorded while I'm on the road.
I got the RTV a month ago, and I'd seen people raving on about the Replay for quite some time. Now I can see why. While Tivo and Windows Media Center can record shows, neither offers quite the features the ReplayTV does. Activation sucks, but that's what ebay is for.
You can pick up a 40gb for $150 (+ $300 activation), and throw in 2 big hard drives. Not bad for something that actually made watching TV worthwile again. Before, I watched TV when I had a continuous block of time, and hoped something decent was on. Now, I watch TV when I have time, and have a choice of which episode I want to watch, of what show I want to watch.
... cable and satellite companies.
Most of the cable companies provide their own PVR hardware to users, with the twin advantage of being a few dollars cheaper and coming from the people who provide you with the service.
Sure, we here know that their hardware is generally rather simplistic in their features compared to TiVo, but your average person doesn't realize that TiVo is more than just a glorified digital VCR, so the three dollars they save a month seems like a good deal.
Now that DirecTV has plans to switch to one of TiVo's competitors in the form of NDS Group Plc, I fear we're going to see the same happen in the world of satellite as well.
So, in the future, TiVo and Microsoft will be competing against products provided by the people who bring them their cable/dish service, who will have the home-field advantage.
I installed myth on a spare pc and got everything up and running in less than an hour.
I don't know what you're bitching about, the Myth tv installation boots from CD, has a few questions for you and Presto it's been working since. And all I had to give up is 1000Mhz duron and a 200G HD.
Add a RF wireless keyboard and RF A/V sender receiver to connect the TV's and you've got mean ass PVR system.
Add to that fact that tivo doesn't exist in europe and you've got 100% of the market for Mythtv in this neck of the world.