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Cooling Toronto Using Lake Ontario

An anonymous reader writes "Air cooled by the frigid waters deep in Lake Ontario started bringing relief to buildings in downtown Toronto on Tuesday after the valves were symbolically opened on the multi-million-dollar project. The company says that they have the capacity to air condition 100 office buildings or 8,000 homes - the equivalent of 32 million square feet of building space. They note that the cooling system reduces energy usage, freeing up megawatts from the Ontario's electrical grid, minimizes ozone-depleting refrigerants and reduces the amount of carbon dioxide entering the air."

28 of 698 comments (clear)

  1. Environmental effects by jonbryce · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Will this not cause the lake to warm up? What are the envirnmental effects of this? Have they been considered?

    1. Re:Environmental effects by gowen · · Score: 5, Informative

      No it won't, because the water used to cool the air is the same water that would be extracted anyway, to provide potable water to the city. See this schematic. Notice the warm water is not returned to Lake Ontario.

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    2. Re:Environmental effects by Curtman · · Score: 5, Informative

      This has been covered extensively on Discovery Canada, which I watch regularly. Here's a quote that puts this into perspective:

      ...He said environmental studies show the system will cause a temperature increase [each year] equivalent to the heat the lake surface absorbs during seven seconds of sunshine....
      -Toronto cools off using Lake Ontario waters

    3. Re:Environmental effects by black+mariah · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The water at the bottom of the lake isn't special. The only reason it's cold is because it's so far away from the surface that it can't be heated by the sun, and the water on top helps wick away any heat that might build up. Go dive into a lake. The first few inches of the surface might be warm, but down as little as five feet you're looking at a significant drop in temperature, and it just gets colder as it goes down.

      --
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    4. Re:Environmental effects by VeryProfessional · · Score: 5, Insightful

      We have to recognise that any interaction we have with the environment is going to have some impact on it. This impact will by definition be negative if we characterise any change to the existing equilibrium as being negative. The smart thing to do is to spread the impact by interacting in lots of different ways on a lower level, rather than abusing a single resource, as we currently do with fossil fuels.

      I applaud what they are doing in Canada. The more alternative energy sources we use, the better.

    5. Re:Environmental effects by bhima · · Score: 5, Funny
      You should join Greenpeace!

      I've never seen such a concentration of good looking impressionable young ladies in my life. It's well worth the effort!

      --
      Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.
    6. Re:Environmental effects by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      "the water's cold will be extracted"

      Hahahahahaha. Perhaps they can keep these rooms lit by extracting the dark from them.

    7. Re:Environmental effects by Catmeat · · Score: 5, Informative
      I suspect a little thing called Winter will have an effect.

      I'm annoyed by all this hysterical nonsense over environmental effects on the lake. Apart from the fact that the heat input is trivial given the size of the lake (do you know what the heat capacity of 393 cubic miles of water is?) People think the lake is not some finite reservoir of coolness - no, it's a heat store, it cools down in the winter people! Consider the hitorical effect of tens of thouands of summers if that were not true.

      In all this ranting, the very real envirnoemental benfits of reducing energy consumption and CO2 emissions get lost in the noise. I'd have expected better from the so-called technically literate.

    8. Re:Environmental effects by gowen · · Score: 5, Insightful
      The problem is that after thewind has past through that, it's no longer strong enough to push clouds,
      Do you have a source for this. I find it extremely difficult to believe, given the height of clouds, compared to the height of wind turbines...
      --
      Athletic Scholarships to universities make as much sense as academic scholarships to sports teams.
    9. Re:Environmental effects by L0C0loco · · Score: 5, Interesting

      What??? Water is its densest at a temperature of 4C. Cold water pumped out during the summer cooling months has a chance to be replenished during the next winter. As the winter ice melts and the melt water warms it begins to sink due to the relative increase in density as it approaches a temperature of 4C. So long as the winter cooling capacity of the lake exceeds the summer cooling needs of the city, this should be a sustainable practice. It is true that the thickness of the cold layer will thin during the summer pumping season, but it will thicken again during winter. Obviously, this pumping will cause the mean thickness to decrease - they just need to hope it doesn't thin too much. The problem with free lunches is that people eat too much, get fat, and die!

      --
      -- Instant Karma's gonna get you! [320848 = 2*2*2*2*11*1823]
    10. Re:Environmental effects by An+dochasac · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Forgot the link, and me login: Toronto's solution will have far less impact than Milwaukee's solution of building more coal power plants which will suck 2.2 billion gallons of water and fish from Lake Michigan every day and convert it to mercury contaminated steam, or discharge it at a much higher temperature... all in order to inefficiently cool buildings to the temperature of lake michigan, a stone's throw away from the power plant. Can I burn some karma points with a duh here? Canadian industry finally cops onto an idea that every 7-year-old has when his toes are in 40F degree water and his head in 100F air. If only American industry wern't so hung up on our industrial past, we could see the way to the future.

    11. Re:Environmental effects by Junior+J.+Junior+III · · Score: 5, Funny

      What do you know, now we ARE paying to heat the outside. My dad will flip his wig when he hears about this.

      --
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    12. Re:Environmental effects by alienw · · Score: 5, Informative

      Warming up a lake a few degrees would take a ridiculous amount of energy, more than any city could possibly put into a lake. Calculate it, it takes 4.184 joules to warm up one gram of water one degree C. There are 1640 km^3 of water in Lake Ontario. That's 1 640 000 000 000 cubic meters, which is 1.64 × 10^18 grams. 1.64e18 * 1.0 deg C * 4.184 J/g-degC = 6.87e18 J. This is 1906044444444 kilowatt-hours, which is a hell of a lot.

    13. Re:Environmental effects by MemoryAid · · Score: 5, Informative
      I don't study large lakes either, but I did take a few minutes to run some numbers. Based on somebody's claim of 430 trillion gallons of water in Lake Ontario (and I assumed US gallons, as that is the most common gallon still in use), I came up with 216700 megawatts required to raise the average temperature of the lake one Kelvin in one year.

      I assumed standard water (1 kg/L) when converting from volume to mass. I also used only two significant digits for specific heat capacity (4.2 kJ/KgK). I also assumed uniform temperature and uniform heat distribution because I'm looking for averages, to get an idea of order of magnitude.

      Anyway, I RTFA and saw that the cooling power is only about 207 megawatts. That convinced me to rule out any macroscopic environmental consequences and get on with my life.

      --
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  2. I was going to ask about that... by PedanticSpellingTrol · · Score: 5, Funny

    but then I had a better question: Can it cool my 64-bit prescott?

    1. Re:I was going to ask about that... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      And if you overclock your city, does it void the warrantee?

  3. Just two questions by cyclop · · Score: 5, Interesting

    (1). What will happen when the lake water will be warmed up? Ok,it will perhaps take a long time,but...

    (2). How does the energy required for pumping / distributing the water and maintaining pipelines and machinery compares with electrical conditioneers?

    Said that, it looks like a nice idea.
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    1. Re:Just two questions by jonbryce · · Score: 5, Informative

      Q1 is a valid concern.

      Q2 is apparently answered in the article. Approx 25% of the energy requirements for electrical air con.

    2. Re:Just two questions by ediron2 · · Score: 5, Informative

      Man, I can't believe I'm getting sucked into this moronic, paranoiac debate.

      1 - Lake Ontario doesn't freeze over, but it does have some surface ice in midwinter. Ice implies a surface temp at or below 0 degrees c. Right?

      2 - Having lived next to another sizeable lake (Lake Champlain, which typically does freeze over), and as an EXPERT in hydrodynamic modelling, I can assure you that that niggling little physics detail about water having maximum density at... (drum roll) 4 degrees C is accurate. However, twice a year, lakes like Ontario have all their water churned about as ambient average temp falls below 4 degrees C, then as ambient temp rises above 4 c. Wierd, but true. Frankly, seiche's are wierder.

      3 - So, as winter gets cold enough, any water not AT 4 degrees C rolls to the surface, where it is... say it with me... chilled by the Toronto winters. Before any ice is made, everything in the lake chills to 4 degrees C (this is my biggest oversimplification here, since inversion layers can exist in large water bodies. It doesn't matter in the overall calcs to follow, since all I was interested in showing is the mechanics for recharge of the cold zone).

      4 - The thermal mass of Lake Ontario (one site says 86 m average depth, x 19,000 km^2 in area... 19,000,000,000 x 86 x 100 ^3 cm^3 per meter x 1 degree c x 0.0039683 btu's per calorie x .000000293 btu's per megawatt hour = 2* 10 ^9th Megawatt hours needed.

      The Fact Sheet on Enwave's site says they're gonna free up 59 megawatts. Now, I should be able to disregard a part of this as an efficiency improvement (electricity for cooling is gawdawfully inefficient, compared to non-compressive heat exchangers like this'll use), but I'll eat the inefficiency because that's the nice guy I am. 59 x 24 x 365 (megawatt-years to megawatt-hours) gets us *finally* to matching units. If I haven't completely bolluxed the calculation, we're looking at a capability of handling 3673 of these facilities. Or, the temp of Lake O going up 1/3673 of a degree.

      Oh. Yay. The little fishies aren't even going to notice this. In fact, there's room for exporting this capability and if we're willing to warm Lake O by a few degrees I think it'd take care of the AC demands of most of North America, if them clever Canadians can just figure out a way to export this.

      When she's working hard, the sun 'wastes' enough energy warming up dirt and water around the world to fuel our needs a thousandfold over. When she's not paying attention (at the poles, nights and winters), earth's radiating it off like gangbusters.

      The risk of us boogering up our surroundings when we do BIG things is a valid one. But not here, not yet.

      We've reached the point where we're influencing the world in several spots: cfc's, pesticides, acid rain, particulate emissions, garbage, animal populations, etc. etc. etc.

      But this isn't one of them. As a side joke, I bet there are a few million Toronto residents that'd be more than happy to let the thermal average temp of Lake O go up 30 degrees, just for the lake-effect warmth it'd impart on their town each winter and the ability to swim without turning blue in midsummer. Back during a nasty winter ('93), a favorite bumper sticker of mine was 'Another Vermonter *for* global warming'.

      Rock on Toronto & Enwave.com

  4. In a related story... by hazman · · Score: 5, Funny

    Halliburton, Bechtel and General Electric have signed a multi-billion dollar deal to refrigerate the waters of Lake Ontario.

    The temperature of the lake has inexplicably begun to rise. Algae blooms, moss growing on surronding trees and Corona beer bottles scattered on the shore have alarmed the Canadian Department of the Interior to take swift, albeit expensive action the save the ecosystem of the lake.

  5. The answer is in the article. by bit4byte · · Score: 5, Informative

    According to the site they use the city water supply
    that feeds from the bottom of the lake to cool down
    a closed loop system, which is then used to cool down the offices/homes. No warm water is fed back into the lake. So the lake should not heat up at all.

  6. The lake is NOT warming up ! by arska · · Score: 5, Informative

    RTFA !
    Look at the diagram on http://www.enwave.com/enwave/dlwc/ They warm up the city's drinking water by a few degrees.

    A

  7. Natural Laws. by MrKane · · Score: 5, Funny

    John St. Pumping Station has obviously found some way of overcoming The Second Law of Thermodynamics as:
    'the water's cold will be extracted and used to lower the temperature in downtown buildings'.

    Unit for Cold anyone?

  8. Re:Messing with lakes: NOT a good idea by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    I think this is unlikely to be a problem.

    Lakes 'turn over' like this when there has been long-term stratification of the water. Stratification occurs when a layer of warm, less dense, water forms over the colder, denser, lower layers. This is stable since the heat of the sun reinforces the stratification. Only a seasonal reduction in sunlight, or strong winds, can mix the layers.

    Lake Nyos is in a tropical area where there is a permanent, marked stratication due to year-round abundant sunlight. Since mixing of layers is so rare, hug amounts of gas can accumulate in lower layers. This is dangerous should something trigger a rapid breakdown of the stratification - such as the landslide in Nyos.

    In temperate areas stratification is confined to the summer, only then is there sufficient sunlight. In other seasons stratification breaks down and mixing occurs such that a potentially dangerous build up of gas is not possible.

  9. Actually, water DOES flow down hill by Analogy+Man · · Score: 5, Informative
    The scematic does not show the back half of the municipal system (sewer and waste water treatment).

    As a grandson of a plumber I can confirm that the water does eventually end up back in the lake. Rule #1 of plumbing ...water flows down hill.

    The beauty of this implementation is that the incremental warming of the water may actually further save energy if slightly warmer water comes into water heaters. From a thermodynamic standpoint this looks like a very large geothermal system. The economies of scale may make it quite cost effective too.

    --
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    1. Re:Actually, water DOES flow down hill by gowen · · Score: 5, Insightful
      The scematic does not show the back half of the municipal system (sewer and waste water treatment).
      Well, yes, it does. Eventually. But by that time, the heat it gained in the exchangers has long been dissipated, so it's irrelevant. Waste water from this source will be no warmer than the waste water that was previously reaching Lake Ontario.
      --
      Athletic Scholarships to universities make as much sense as academic scholarships to sports teams.
  10. Similar implementation by PrebleNY · · Score: 5, Informative

    A similar lake source cooling project was implemented at Cornell while I was there. They tore up half the campus laying 36" pipe down to the nearby lake. Of course this project is much larger (with a larger lake as well), but from what I have heard the Cornell project has been a success despite the hand wringing of the radical environmentalist. The Toronto plan seems to be even better as they are not discharging the water directly back to the lake (as they do in Ithaca) but are processing it for drinking water. more information on the Cornell LSC website http://www.utilities.cornell.edu/LSC/default.htm

  11. Re:Convection? by Emperor+Igor · · Score: 5, Insightful

    This is the ying and the yang of every decision. There is a side effect to everything.

    The question is whether this kind of pollution is better than the carbon dioxide/refrigerant chemicals/coal power plant pollution. It is likely the answer is "yes".