Slashdot Mirror
Hardware That Literally Doesn't Stink?
gtaylor writes "You know that new computer smell? Some people (like me) get sick from it. Can Slashdot readers provide good suggestions for mice or keyboards made from ceramic, unlacquered hardwood, metal, etc, non-plastic headphones and microphones, screens like the new metal-framed cinema display from Apple, etc? (Wood is not necessarily right if it's glued or varnished.) I have a Sharp Plasmacluster air purifier that is very helpful but the fewer volatile organic chemicals released in the first place, the better. I'll also need a chair (leaning to the Herman Miller Mirra chair) and an adjustable metal/hardwood desk. High-density hard synthetics like polypropylene (a popular material at Ikea) or acrylic are also inert enough to be fine if they have no plasticizers - suggestions for a full office set-up welcome."
As a practicing pulmonary doctor, I see patients that claim a wide variety of environmental sensitivies. My one patient was an engineer who thought her computer "was releasing chemicals that were killing her" did the following.
She placed her computer case in a plastic storage bin and placed it in the crawl space under her bedroom. She then bought extension cables for everything and ran the cables up into her living space. I wish I had the pictures she brought in... but her setup included a desk mounted power switch as well.
Once she moved her computer out of her bedroom she decided that her light bulbs were releasing harmful chemicals. It was obviously her light bulbs because she had moved basically everything else out of her bedroom.
Of course, she slept with her cat... but her cat couldn't be causing her allergies. Of course not.
Gesh... just another day at the office.
Davak
send me your new goods, and I will send them back after I wear the new smell off... Sounds like a plan to me!
- Your stupidity got you into this mess, why can't it get you out? -Will Rogers
Comment removed based on user account deletion
I think with the majority of Slashdotters, the hardware which suffers most from stink problems lies between the keyboard and chair...
dunno about plastics etc but if you ever tried popping off a key or two in one of your few-year-old keyboards - particularly if you regularly eat at your computer desk, well chances are you've located a primary source of smell just there.
ISO certified == THX certified
Take up smoking. Tobacco will give you a legitimate reason to worry about your health and deaden your sense of smell.
-- I could tell right away that she was impressed with my HUGE Slashdot Karma.
This.
Couldn't stand em. Made me sick. Well one day I decided to have one even though I didn't like em. Felt like I had wasted my money. Know what I did? I bought another one. After about 5 Big Macs I was startin' to dig it. Now I really like Big Macs. Sometimes you have just to grin and bare it until your body adjusts. Now maybe you have a serious medical condition and are literally allergic to this stuff. In which case, you can probably get some injections that will very slowly expose your body to it until you are used to it. But chances are you're not seriously allergic to this stuff, you're just a big cry baby. Eat the damn Big Mac.
How we know is more important than what we know.
Just my 2 cents, from a concerned parent who's been there.
Sensibility to volatile compounds is a rare allergy, but it is true. It's not some kind of queer twist. There are people that cannot dress anything but pure,white cotton without having serious, harmful allergies.
I'm allergic,with asthma. My condition is much milder than him, but I indeed suffer inside new cars, for example.
I hate politically correct,so it's nice you joke. But,after,try help him. (I have no clue,sorry).
-- Patent no.123456: A way to personalize
If you very sensitive, get a friend to open up all the shrink wrap and let it air out and his/her place. New plastics do outgas but it doesn't last very long.
Wow. What a way to live. Have you ever bought a new car? Do you ever plan too? Can you fly commercial airlines? Plane cabins stink. What about driving near pastures or out in the country in general. Do you have allergies, or just some super-sensitive snout? Do you complain when a movie theatre smells like feet, or do you avoid movie theatres because of your condition. I mean, if you spend this much time trying to make sure your desk is ok for your nose, it must be pretty serious. Do you claim ADA and get special stuff at work, or do you suffer though each day.
Sounds like a geek ailment to me.
one time i dropped my computer on my foot and slid down a few stairs while moving. In that case, the computer itself was a very large airborne particle!
...when you get sick from the smell of your own tin-foil hat.
"'Yrch!' said Legolas, falling into his own tongue."
I think I stopped taking this kind of thing very seriously when I read a study where self-identified MCS sufferers were intentionally exposed to chemicals in a blind test - expose them to chemicals with no detectable odor, and they have no reaction. Expose them to harmless chemicals with a noticeable odor, and they immediately have a "reaction".
I hate to be a bastard, but I think that for the vast majority of "sufferers", the underlying problem is far more likely to be psychological than physiological. Perhaps you should approach it from that perspective.
ABSURDITY, n.: A statement or belief manifestly inconsistent with one's own opinion.
Whoa! For a second there I thought you said your PCP wasn't giving you heart palpitations and I thought "Man, your dealer's rippin' you off!" : )
harmonious design
I find that placing a fine layer of Obecalp spray over the entire surface works miracles when it comes to containing the problem that leads to these symptoms. Like everthing good, it is hard to get ahold of: but I have a supply, and for the low price of only $99 a bottle I can sell you some.
Unfortunately, there is a risk you may have to repeat the treatment after a while. It really depends on the severity of you Airdnocopyh (the scientific name for this serious illness) condition.
Nothing is quite as funny as seeing someone buy organic food for 3x-4x the price. Too many people have become big babies these days and are afraid of even living.
You'd enjoy reading this.
More on topic though, it seems many more people today are allergic to all kinds of things than in the past, and it seems the more a society offers "hygienic", "pasteurized" or otherwise sterile food products and other products, the more kids growing up in that society get sick from over-reactivity to the things they weren't exposed in their youth.
I mean, just look at the french: they have all manners of un-pasteurized cheese and they seem to fare quite well on them, but when someone from the US and eats some of that cheese, that person usually gets a good hard case of "tourista", if you see what I mean.
That's proof that if you don't expose your body to stuff all the time, you become over-sensitive to said stuff. That's not necessarily better than letting your body learn how to deal with the stuff itself...
"A door is what a dog is perpetually on the wrong side of" - Ogden Nash
do you think that somebody who decides 'it's the lightbulbs' would have properly ruled that out?
world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
"I hope the OP wasn't really expecting to get useful feedback out of this question"
Who would have guessed that Slashdot would be a poor place to get medical advice?
That's a great question. She has refused skin or RAST testing looking for environmental allergies... so I do not know for sure.
However when her daughter takes the cat off to college, she feels dramatically better. She says that's it the stress that her daughter gives her.
She also notices that she gets hives and a runny nose when around other cats... and she honestly thinks she might be allergic to them. Just not her cat.
Congrats with the chicken thing. Reminds me of the old joke:
"Hey, doc... I get palpations everytime I eat chicken."
"Great, don't eat chicken. Next!"
Davak
I love the smell of fresh hardware so much I kept all the packaging that came with my Powerbook. Every once in a while I open it up and remember that magical moment, my first Mac.
I could ask for a Natural keyboard 8)
...
"It takes about 15 working hours to finish a complete one solid wood keyboard, starting from a carefully chosen piece of lumber up to the polishing and testing of the final product. Because of this labour intensive and careful process, Wood Contour can only deliver a limited amount of items per year, since we want to guarantee you that the quality we deliver is the best in the world.
keyboards
Solid Wood PC Keyboard - Ash
$1,115.00
Solid Wood PC Keyboard - Beech
$1,115.00
Solid Wood PC Keyboard - Cherry
$1,115.00
Solid Wood PC Keyboard - Mahogany
$1,115.00
Solid Wood PC Keyboard - Maple
$1,115.00"
While browsing I also found this
Stone mice and keyboard and screen...
quite expensive, with the whole set a more than 7000$... but hey, here it is!
It takes 40+ muscles to frown, but only four to extend your arm and bitchslap the motherfucker
Sig: I stole this sig.
So I think a starting point me be with This guy. Here also. I don't know if they would release any info to you about what items you may find tolerable but it might be worth a shot.
You could probably save a few bucks by putting yourself in an inert plastic bubble instead of buying all new furniture etc.
I dunno if I'd call it "stupid". I work in Healthcare ( respiratory as well, but mostly dealing with sleep medicine instead of allergies ), and people think they understand their bodies pretty well. I mean, they're around them practically all the time, so they sort of consider themselves to be an authority on the subject.
People form a speculative hypothesis on what might be causing their problems, and then their everyday experiences are subtly edited by memory to fit and reinforce these ideas. Not everyone has the understanding of proper eliminative testing, or the discipline, to correctly figure out their problem, or at least some kind of ameliorating behavior, unlike that chicken-dude who's floating around in this thread somewhere. This isn't just a medical problem - people do this in all facets of their lives.
Don't be too harsh on these folks. Nobody likes to feel sick, and even less to not understand what's happening to their body. Reaching out for a hypothesis that they can understand is natural in this situation - it's the job of healthcare professionals to reach through this barrier of uncertainty and provide correct diagnosis and treatment.
YLFIOne god, one market, one truth, one consumer.
...go and see a doctor about it?
If it's genuine, nobody will have better resources to identify what's causing the allergy.
If it's psychosomatic, nobody will be better qualified to identify it as such and treat it.
No kidding!!! What do you say at this point?
No one in my office liked the smell of
computer hardware. The problem was driving
us all completely crazy, until we found
the answer:
Now everyone in my office just uses one of these!
http://www.approvedgasmasks.com/suit-responderp
------ The best brain training is now totally free : )
$5 / month hosted VPS on linux = awesome!
"High-density hard synthetics like polypropylene (a popular material at Ikea) or acrylic"
(warning, I am about to rant again, one of those weeks)
Polymers such as Polypropylene are not just popular with Ikea, there is a good change damn near every white good in your house; most of your car and several of your brown goods are mostly polypropylene (PP) (toilet seats/cisterns even in some countries); your outdoor furniture is almost certainly PP if it isnt metal and glass; maybe even have polyamide (see rant below) cushions. Im certain the top of your washing machine is polypropylene unless it is one of the very new (recently trendy) aluminium exterior or an industrial steel construction one.
Lets not forget the ABS/PC (Acrylonitrile butadiene Styrene/Poly Carbonate) Alloys often used in computer equipment and cars and most "finished" (painted or electroplated) polymer products; "Acrylic" (sic), perhaps you mean PMMA (Poly Methyl Methacrylate); like most of the non-glass drinkware in your house?? That woodgrain in your car, unless it is a VERY EXPENSIVE luxury vehicle, it is almost certainly cubic printed PC/ABS (mercedes owners, sit down, most of yours are cubic printed too). The lenses of your sunglasses/glasses are almost certainly Poly Carbonate or, worse, a thermoset polymer; more volatiles!!! (used in production, but, being volatiles, long past outgassed) oh no!!!.
As for plasticisers; except for FLEXIBLE polymers (like the TPE's used on your mouse wheel and your toothbrush), manufacturers try to avoid volatile plasticisers as they outgas and cause defects during processing; indeed, correct processing of rigid thermoplastics tends to ensure all volatiles are outgassed during processing. If they dont outgas at the 200~300 degrees C they are processed at, they wont at room temperature!!!
Your car's Instrument Panel is almost certainly skinned with a TPE that will outgas volatiles. Either that or painted with a soft feel paint, once again, it will outgas volatiles. Why do you think you need to clean the inside of your winshield so often??
Do you use a latex or synthetic pillow?? or blanket/quilt/doona/comforter(insert name for said from your country here)... more polymers with volatile plasticisers.
I am fairly certain, in fact, that your computer is the LEAST LIKELY item in your home/life to produce volatiles which make you sick/cause allergic reaction. Unless dust/fluid from YOUR ENVIRONMENT is frying on heatsinks etc...
Do you wear ALL COTTON/WOOL clothes??? well, bugger me if you arent wearing plasticised poly amide filaments ("Nylon" or "polyester"); your toothbrush bristles are made of similar materials. Even your toothpaste probably comes out of a PET (Poly Ethylene Teripthalate) or PE (poly ethylene) or PP receptacle.
Hell, the shelves in your fridge are likely to be PMMA or PC if they arent steel mesh. Im fairly certain you have a Poly Ethylene chopping board in your house and drink your favourite soft drink or fruit juice from a PET bottle (oh! no, plastic!!!) bottle.
Bloody hell, whilst we do tear shit out of the enviroment using fossil fuels to create these polymers (although recycling helps, ALOT, you all should do it or lobby your local council/government to do it; takes maybe 5 minutes out of your day); they are so all pervasive that suggesting the use of plasticised polymers in your computer or doped ceramics is making you sick. Lacquered wood or coated metals are just as likely to outgas if heated as many polymers...
What a crock; most allergy specialists would look for OBVIOUS causes first... dust, dust mites, pollen... And even if it *IS* from polymer additives (not plasticisers, these are far from common in rigid polymers), your computer hardware is almost certainly the SMALLEST contributor.
I challenge ANYONE in the western world to proove that they come into contact with more variety of polymers due to their computer than in the rest of their life. If you drive a car, you already loose Almos
It is definitely possible to make yourself physically sick if you are mentally convinced you are sick.
I spent years fighting near constant bouts of nausea. Saw a slew of specialists, had scans, tests, X-rays, pokes, prods, and pills. Nothing helped. After a few years I began to realize it was the situtations I was in that seemed to induce my nausea... gee could it be mental?
Short story: yes. I had(have?) "Social Phobia" before it was the cool thing (like ADHD that every third kid has). The damnest thing is that once I knew what was wrong, and was positive my feeling sick was purely in my head, I discovered it was still impossible to not feel "sick" sometimes. It's just like being scared of flying. You can be on a plane and rationally know that you are safer than in your car, but still be terrified at the same time.
My feeling is that a lot of these MCS people just freak out when they smell something "odd". I doubt there is a single treatment to snap these people out of their loop. Therarpy did nothing for my problem, but the slightest taste of an SSRI drug fixed me like flipping a switch. For other people, drugs just make them feel nasty, and talking things out helps.
The point is, I think there is something wrong with people who "have" MCS, and it can be serious, but no amount of avoid the "bad chemicals" is going to help them.
Take two, call me in the morning. Don't sue. No for use with certain sets, your mileage may vary...
Hypochondriacs do.
People with multiple chemical sensitivity are usually depressed, and reject suggestions by attending doctors that they see a psychologist, dismissing it as patronizing- they're truly offended and think the doctor is dismissing their claims, when the doctor is actually recognizing someone who's depressed and regardless of physical symptoms, needs to see a trained psychologist.
MCS also is almost always self-diagnosed; patients come to doctors claiming they have it. That is a hallmark of invented diseases and hypochondriacs.
The chemicals leeched off by plastics- and particularly vinyl in cars and the like- are very toxic, actually- but the simple solution is to air out the object in question. Put the keyboard on your porch or something for a few days or something, or for chrissakes, leave the window open.
Please help metamoderate.
I disagree. MCS victims are virtually never frauds or attention whores. They're severe psychosomatic cases, and need psychiatric help.
"People who do stupid things with hazardous materials often die." -- Jim Davidson on alt.folklore.urban
I work for a computer manufacturer and one of the test we do is plastic outgasing. Basically we measure how much chemicals are being released into the air over time from plastic parts. The limits for this have been changing and so have the plastics. Many of the new plastics have very low outgasing. These should start showing up soon, if not already.
Now we don't have much issue with this in my division (server) because everything is made out metal except for a few small fillers, etc.
P.S. That film you get on inside of your car window. That is your dash outgasing chemicals.
Really, really don't.
E45 is made from Lanolin.
Now, if you read the label carefully, it claims it's "hypo-allergenic" lanolin.
That's a bunch of crap.
If you have an allergy related dermatitis, do _not_ use E45, or other lanolin based emollient. You end up with exposure to lanolin, and it is liklely that you will develop an allergic reacion to the lanolin.
That's what happend to me. Atopic dermatisis (aka eczema), and after about 8 months, I'd developed an allergy to lanolin so severe that I'd rather pour sulphuric acid over my skin, than put lanolin near it.
Now, you (the grandparent) may be lucky, and not become sensised to lanolin. It's not worth the risk - I can't handle most new woolen goods, because the traces of lanolin are there.
E45 is fine if you have unbroken, but dry, skin. That's not the case for people with chronic dermatitis.
What you actually want is aqueaus cream, or emulsifying ointment. Ask your pharmacist, they're about 1/3 the price for 4 times the volume, more effective, and not going to bite you in the ass later on.