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Writing Software for Worldwide Distribution Proves Difficult
lupa1420 writes "Insensitive computer programmers with little knowledge of geography have cost the giant Microsoft company hundreds of millions of dollars in lost business and led hapless company employees to be arrested by offended governments."
The article is crap. Among their blunders are:
- Referring to Taiwan as a country
- Not showing disputed parts of India in India
- Japanese employees mistakenly use Koran chants in a video game
Most of the people who were offended are governments who "demand" respect. And those kind of governments are the least likely to deserve it.
Re: the grandparent post, that quote from the article got me too. I was wondering if they were showing an upside down map or something...
Whenever I come across a globe that can be fully flipped upside down, I do so. It gives an interesting perspective on the world, especially considering "up" was chosen fairly arbitrarily...
(Yes, I know, "up" was chosen because that's where North is, but try to remember the whole polar reversal thing that happens from time to time)
I'll turn into a supernova and burn up everything. Well I'll turn into a black little hole and you'll turn into string.
One of my friends commented on Americans who have lived many years in Europe:"Have you noticed how they have changed? When you hear them talking to other Americans who haven't lived here, and then to us, it's like they are switching back and forth. Like talking to children and then again talking to other adults. It's strange."
in true slashdot bashing style. Haha!
i kinda wonder if linux offends accidentally or not tho.
Actually, the well-known Debian developer Herbert Xu resigned recently due to being offended by project members discussing (in the context of the new Debian installer) whether or not to refer to Taiwan as "Taiwan, Province of China" as it is officially designated in ISO 3166.
So this sort of problem is certainly not restricted to commercial or proprietary software.
- Kevin B. McCarty
Jammu and Kashmir is an interesting problem -- do you want to tick off all the buyers in India or all the buyers in Pakistan? Pleasing either group will displease the other. Maybe l10n will be expanded to include customizing maps for local markets' ideas of proper boundaries for disputed regions. It could get really crazy.
I do have to admit that Microsoft is not alone in running afoul of the diversity of speech and politics around the world. One of my wife's favorite stories is about Chevrolet being puzzled that their Nova wasn't selling in South America, until they realized that in some of the local languages the name means "won't go".
Rather than blame the "insensitive computer programmers", perhaps we could look the other direction and realize that some people/cultures/religions are incredibly OVERsensitive, and catering to their peculiarities is just enabling them.
/. counterpost wave: I know that the US has some of their own sacred cows, which I think are equally silly. But I'd also argue that the US has a long tradition of arguing but ultimately tolerating such things - crucifixes in urine, routine desecrations of our symbols like the flag, etc. - are practically part of the evening news.
I mean please. From the article:
A game called Age of Empires 2 offended the Saudi Arabian authorities because it showed victorious Muslim armies turning churches into mosques. The game was withdrawn from sale in the kingdom
The Korean government, objected because Microsoft software showed the national flag in reverse. The software had to be changed.
The Spanish version of Windows used the word Hembra - meaning "woman" in Spain - for choosing gender. But in some Central American republics, notably Nicaragua, the word is an insult meaning "bitch". The programme was changed.
Microsoft employees were questioned by police in China, where it is an offence to refer to Taiwan as country or as the Republic of China. Now Taiwan is not referred to as country and all software worldwide avoids the issue by referring to places as "regions or districts".
Uruguay is a republic and proud if it but in Microsoft's Outlook in Uruguay, the company offended the government by describing Tuesday April 30 as the queen's birthday.
Let's look at these.
1) For Muslims turning churches into Mosques, yeah, that's HORRIBLY unrealistic propaganda. I have two words for you: Hagia Sophia.
2) the Korean flag in reverse: so what?
3) hembra: hardly an 'insensitivity' issue; it sounds like a genuine difference in dialect.
4) China/Taiwan: boo hoo. If the Chinese want to dwell in their eternal house of reality-denial, that's fine. What's next, we should stop recognizing Philippines because Spain wants them back? (I don't see the US forcing MS to delete Cuba from the map...)
5) The Queen of Uruguay: that's just funny. If someone accidentally or on purpose started referring to the US as a monarchy, they'd probably be hired as a spokesperson for the DNC.
Maybe it's just a particularly American viewpoint, but this whole stuff about sacred cows (pun intended) is just silly historio/political dreck. If MS wants to bend over backwards to accomodate the Latvio-Armenian midget lesbian lobby for more sales, that's their call. But nobody should claim that failure to do so is anything but a business decision. The folks who get up in arms about the slightest little thing need to grow thicker skins and get the fsck over it.
And yes, to forestall the
-Styopa
I forget the exact piece of software involved, but a few years ago an Irish friend of mine nearly went postal when the software he was using insisted on listing his Republic of Ireland address as being in the UK. That's a huge insult to anyone who lives in Ireland.
"The market alone cannot provide sufficient constraints on corporation's penchant to cause harm." -- Joel Bakan
My favorite stat is that %25 of US citizens think New Mexico is not a state.
Just imagine if someone invaded New Mexico and 25% of America were upset that we were sending troops there.
"Only one thing, is impossible for god: to find any sense in any copyright law on the planet." Mark Twain
When my ex was going to college she was a teacher's assistant for an art class. As a TA she sometimes reviewed papers for the professor before he did the final grading.
Many of the students had written a paper on a local work of art called US and THEM. the work of art was basically a flat map of the world with the United States in white with US written on it (get it, US = U.S.? nevermind) and the rest of the world in red with "THEM" written on it. She called me over to look at the papers because she couldn't believe what she was reading. No less than three of the students (four year university, not a junior college) had commented on the fact that Alaska had US written on it and wondered why the artist had chosen to do that.
It was a dark day for my view of my fellow citizens.
TW
I wrote a shareware timezone application (WorldClock) where I allow the user to click on a map of the world and get the local times in that area.
You would not believe the number of (abusive) emails I have received over Kashmir. You try to explain that the map highlights reflect timezone boundaries and not political boundaries but they just don't care. They are all blind to reason when it comes to anything to do with Kashmir.
And just look at America's overreaction to Subway having a little joke at your expense. So much for your supposed easy-going nature.
Once people decided that the spin axis itself would be vertical, then N or S being up was a coin flip. In that sense, it was arbitrary, but one or the other had to be chosen; hence, not arbitrary, but inevitable.
... so that all the important geography (as far as your European heritage would be concerned) would be clearly seen from the room light falling from above.
... essentially perpendicular to the equator. There must be some sort of uppedness bias when reading a round object; perhaps linked to the orientation of ancient scrolls.
But let's say further that you were a globe-maker from the 1800s. Since we have gravity, hence mounts, and simple mounts at that, then your globes had to have a set orientation when placed in a room. Which way up would you have chosen? Yes, that's right, North
One thing which mystifies me is why the spin axis was chosen to be vertical. If the axis were horizontal, the light used in illuminating rooms would fall on the globe as the sun's rays do
[You have a stable society when some nut guns down a schoolyard and the law doesn't change.]
You kind of have to go visit there to really understand the distances, no matter where it's at. I understand how big Alaska is, but if I pointed at Juneau (sp?) and Nome on a map, I wouldn't know how long it'd take to go from one city to another.
But I've been to France and know that Paris to Lyon is a 6 hour drive, 2 hrs on the TGV. It's 7 hours from Columbus to Toronto, so it's easy enough to compare that way.
until Windows XP - we were put in +1 GMT, even we never moved our borders (and timezone) in the past 50 or so years. I don't know if someone protested, we just used "Helsinki, Riga, Talin GMT +2". I was surprised to see "Helsinki, Riga, Sofia, Talin GMT +2" in XP.
Quoth the poster: perhaps linked to the orientation of ancient scrolls.
....bad pun, but I couldn't resist
Funny you should say "orientation"
Early European maps had EAST at the top
Ever hear of "orienting" a map?
Point the way in front of you towards your destination (the orient)
(Of course on the way back I guess you had an "occident")
--MAB
1, Not knowing where Jammu-Kashmir is, exactly, and not knowing that Indian law prohibits considering it part of anything but India. (Never mind that the law has its own counterpart in Pakistan; you can't avoid breaking the law on this one.)
2, In a similar vein, having to offend Kurds so as not to offend the Turks with regard to the depiction of Kurdistan.
In both cases you can make customized versions of the software to comply local laws.
In Argentina, all maps that are sold has to be aproved for "Instituto Geografico Militar", a map not aproved by them is illegal. This issue was raised by local maps manufacturers when imported maps (cheaper than local) come from China. so they use this argument to not allow them to be sold here. They say the foreneing maps has Falklands as UK territory insted of Malvinas Argentinas, but in fact the real problem was that they didn't want to compete.
Regarding hembra usage in Nicaragua, I didn''t know it even if I am a native Spanish speaker (from Argentina). Hembra means female, used mostly for animals (like Macho for men). But waht is true, is that translations of MS sucks. That is one reason I use software in English.
DNA in your Linux: DNALinux
You are very uninformed. East has often been used as the top of the map becasue it was the sacred direction from which the sun would rise. You may have heard of "the orient" it means the east and people would orient a map. It is of no small significance to europeans that Jerusalem was there.This goes back through many cultures.
North was also a common choice since the north star was a major navigational point and the only still part in the heavens. In many esoteric understandings the north star was the peak of the cosmic mountain where the Gods dwell. Refer to Isaiah's refereces to "Har Tzafon" or the mountain of the north. Since about 3/4 of the dry land on earth is north of the equator, particularly those areas that developed advanced cultures early, this was also a common model in many cultures.
In every ancient culture maps were designed around spiritual, navigational and astronomical conciderations not on lighting.
As much as slashdotters like to dismiss religon they should really learn to recognize its place in developing almost every aspect of our culture rather than thinking that people of the ancient world centered their lives on which way the light would look best.
I live in the same county of the same state I was born in and I certainly knew Kashmir is a disputed region between India and Pakistan, and I certainly knew China refuses to acknowledge Taiwan exists as a separate entity from China.
Hypothetical situation for you...
While walking through Belfast, a Catholic and a Protestant approach you from opposite sides and each hold a gun to your head. They ask you your religion. Do you respond, "Sorry, I need to do more research before answering?"
What response should people take in addressing "Disputed" regions? Keep in mind such issues entirely exist as matters of perception and opinion, rather than physical reality. So, do you piss off China or Taiwan? India or Pakistan? Israel or the rest of the Middle East?
Research would not have prevented these problems, nor will it prevent similar issues from arising in the future.
Incidentally, I personally would opt for pissing off both sides in such issues, since you can't win either way. Kashmir? No, "New Islington". Israel and Palestine? "Greater Iberia". Taiwan? How about "The place we get cheap electronic goods". Protestant or Catholic? "Satanist".
I agree that it is a problem.
But, put yourself in their shoes and see how it looks. As trivial as a map may look, there are political implications behind it. For example, in this case, an area inhabited by a ethno-linguistic minority asserts its independance, although the de facto situation is that this is within the bounds of a soverign state. What is worse, is that they see this as a conspiracy from more powerful countries to assert the reverse of the status quo.
Some issues appear really trivial, but are really sensitive/contentious in other countries/cultures. Here are some examples:
Every culture has those "hot button" issues.
There are many other cases I am sure, but you get the idea ...
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Note that whilst the Mezquita was altered to become a Christian church (built in a rather incongruous manner within a few of the arches of the Mezquita), the mosque was itself built on a demolished church, way back when. Apparently, one Abd-ar Rahman the first bought and subsequently demolished the Christian church that originally stood on that spot, and constructed the mosque there. And outstandingly beautiful it is too.
So the Mezquita is actually an example of both of these phenomena, the land in question having gone from Christian to Moslem and back to Christian.
I myself find it more impressive as an example of the utter lack of taste exhibited by the 16th century idiots who tried to 're-christianise' the building by sticking a sodding great Catholic style monstrosity right in the middle of it... and I'm not the only one; Charles V, the twerp who ordered it to be done, said on seeing the results that, "You have built what you or others might have built anywhere, but you have destroyed something that was unique in the world."
But I am sadly off topic.
Most Euro countries aren't 3000 x 1500 miles in size, made up of 48 separate states. Can you point out something other than London on a map of England? It's only the size of VA.
Even taking size into account, most americans have very poor skills. Russia is huge. Most Americans still can't point out where Moscow is, much less Saint Petersburg.
(And I'd be very impressed if they could find Volgograd, Novosibirsk or Vladivostok)
Size isn't a good metric. Montana is big, but only has around what, a million people?
Being an American with good geography skills, living in Europe, I can tell you that IMHO, more Europeans can find Ohio (or at least give its general area) than Americans can find, say, Yorkshire or Bavaria. (and they both have far greater populations than Montana)
That is the point. Do you write 300 different software packages, or do you write one big one, and expect a team from the US or whereever to be experts on socio-political issues and experts at programming?
The spanish problem mentioned later in the article for instance. That is a big problem in spanish speaking parts of the US, where vernaculars are so different, even some spanish speakers don't know when others are cussing them out. In the specific case mentioned, those lousy, insensitive, imperialistic Spaniards would have insulted the Nicaraguans also.
How many people are you going to have on any one project?
The question isn't whether or not MS screwed up, nor is it whether they should have adjusted the products to sell in the offended areas. The question is, whether you should really put a whole lot of effort into writing one major package, with some good internationalization code, write several different packages, or a core package, and then have localized teams put the UI on the product.
Look this patch for Solaris from Sun:
ROC timezone should be avoided for political reasons
I think it would be a great idea to use MS Monopoly for a good cause... but how would you achieve this? The UN with the French and Germans certainly didn't agree with the US and Brits.
Maybe a good way to handle this is to send the "good" ideas to MS from the UN? have a delegation of world powers "reccommend" ideas to MS?
But it still greatly disturbs me that the "non-political" Olympics had the Iranian politics and 1980 Moscow had the US politics...
How could we find someone who could actually tell us what "good" is?
..bright screens for bright people, but now I've got to wear sunglassess.
You are comparing ignorance of regional districts *within* a country (states) to ignorance of major world countries as a whole.
I 'll give you Sweden as a major country (HUGE economy), but I am sure that *many* of the regional districts (states) in US are FAR bigger in economy AND population (and thus more "major" by my definition) than *many* of the countries in Europe.
*Googling statistics left as an exercise to the reader
In large parts of the western world Islam is portrayed as a rather violent religion, with all that talk about Jihad that originates from a vocal minority of extremists. The fear of the moderate majority is that the game will serve to reinforce this image. So it's understandable that sensitive muslims may get offended. I wouldn't feel comfortable if a game that reenacts the Christian atrocities of the crusades were distributed widely in the Arab world.
Moderate and majority is a word I would not use with "muslim". Mod me down, but I do know a lot of muslims and have a dozen muslim friends. Their reasonable and generous people but on facts of history/religion/jews they eyes glaze over and there is nothing but dogma and hatred in their hearts. Even Indonesian/pakistani/malasian muslims.
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
Err which Columbus and which Toronto are you using n your secodn example? I know of at least 6 cities all named Columbus... & 3 named Toronto...
I'm assuming because of your first example you mean ones in and/or around France (which narrowed which Lyon and which Paris)...
Is it just me or do we have to come up with some international naming conventions?
we are all invisible unless we choose otherwise
Can't we just do something like OpenBoot on Sparc does - maybe ide0,0 for pri master, ide0,1 for pri slave, ide1,0 for sec master, and ide1,1 for sec slave? It sure makes sense to me: ide[channel number],[drive number] . It would also make terminology for a third IDE channel a little more obvious.
perl -e 'print $i=pack(c5, (41*2), sqrt(7056), (unpack(c,H)-2), oct(115), 10);'
Well then, Mr. Right Wing Wacko, guess who violates the most U.N. resolutions? That's right. The good 'ol U.S. of fuckin' A. But of course, since that doesn't support your stupid assertion, you ignore it. That and the fact that it's the fucking Saudis who are supporting and financing terrorism, not the Iraqis under Saddam.
BTW, Saddam Hussein was supported by the U.S. not too long ago, and by a Republican president. Again, since it doesn't support your loony theories, you all but conveniently ignore that too.
Why don't you stick that in your crack pipe and smoke it? The mods are certainly smoking lots of crack to moderate up such an uninformed and stupid post such as yours.