Step By Step: Building a MythTV PVR for $635

hesby writes "Anandtech has just published the first half of a two-part article on building a MythTV PVR that they will ultimately compare with Microsoft's Windows Media Center Edition on very similar hardware. As a result, they selected some components that the average user might not choose, just to keep things fair in the second part, where they pit the two PVRs head to head."

Comments

Re:Or

[v1x]

Dont forget the monthly subscription sharges for the Tivo service. An HTPC is a lot more expandable too.

80GB?

[ElPresPufferfish]

80GB seems pretty weak when my normal recordings are 1GB/30min. I'm building a mythtv backend right now, and I'm looking for at least 1TB of space.

Re:or just get a TiVo

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm from the school that thinks a firewall box should be just a firewall box.

And this is why Linux is not mainstream

[spoco2]

This article shows why linux is not mainstream yet:
"We can attempt to load the card right now using the commands below:

# modprobe i2c-core
# modprobe i2c-algo-bit
# modprobe tuner type=2
# modprobe msp3400
# modprobe videodev
# modprobe saa7115
# modprobe ivtv"

And
"dmesg also reports success:

# dmesg | tail
[] sys_init_module+0xeb/0x1e0
[] sysenter_past_esp+0x52/0x79

ivtv: No mem on buf alloc!
ivtv: Buffer alloc failed!
ivtv: Registered v4l2 device, minor 0
ivtv: Registered v4l2 device, minor 32
ivtv: Registered v4l2 device, minor 224
ivtv: Registered v4l2 device, minor 24
ivtv: loaded "

Uh huh

"# cat /dev/video0 > /tmp/test.mpg" Of course, I should know that's how you record video...

And finally:
"And finally, after several hours of turmoil and despair, we have installed and tested our Linux device. Its far from perfect - we cannot readily work with digital TV broadcasts, for example."

It's for exactly these reasons that people use Windows and Macs... this sort of thing is far above the average Joe's understanding I'm afraid, and it really shouldn't be stuff they have to know as it's not user friendly, confusing and assumes far too much prior knowledge.

Re:And this is why Linux is not mainstream

[Jeffrey Baker]

Linux and operating systems like Linux make the trivial and the impossible equally possible. For example, good luck using a Mac to record a digital HDTV broadcast to Xvid with a mu-law soundtrack and subtitles in Farsi, storing it to a network file server attached via IP-over-1394. On Linux this will be a huge pain in the ass, just like everything else, but at least you can do it. For the people who think a Linux box makes a shitty PVR, I respond that a Tivo makes a terrible DVD player and a really bad Unreal Tournament server.

Re:And this is why Linux is not mainstream

[Anonymous Coward]

Unfortunately, your attitude is precisely why things don't improve.

People who know better figure "hey, it works fine for me, you lamers should learn more."

People who don't know better go out and buy macs or windows boxes, and never bother learning, 'cuz they already know they sure as hell ain't going to learn shit from people like you. They don't even like people like you.

To read an attitude like yours is depressing, because while you could be doing so much more, you're simply prancing about on your high horse, thumbing your nose at the peons. It's not productive.

I'll shut up now.

Re:And this is why Linux is not mainstream

[pyrrhonist]

Seems like you're only proving his point further here.

Well, I suppose so, if you count merciless ridicule as honest user testimony.

If you're so sure, then how about a real example of how average-user-friendly it is to setup, instead of taking the cop-out of basically saying "It's easy for me, how could it possibly be hard for anyone else?"

Fine. How to set up a TiVo:

1. Take you TiVo out of the box.
2. Oh and ah, then pet TiVo affectionately.
3. Put batteries in remote.
4. Connect cable wire to TiVo.
5. Set the channel switch on TiVo to "3".
6. Connect one end of red/white/yellow wire to TiVo and other end to TV.
7. Connect one end of phone cord to TiVo and other end to phone jack.
8. Plug in TiVo, turn it on, and turn on the TV.
9. Set the TV channel to "3".
10. Follow the on-screen instructions.
11. Record stuff.
12. Watch recorded stuff.
13. Drink beer. Eat chips.

See? Easy. No, recompile of the kernel was necessary.

The point was that the TiVo is a simple to use device that is based on Linux, and is widely used by the unwashed masses. The parent concluded that Linux isn't ready for the mainstream by citing parts of an article about custom building a machine from scratch, while ignoring the counterexample of consumer-oriented products already using Linux.

Re:And this is why Linux is not mainstream

[Erik Hollensbe]

I'd rather have a system designed for experts when I need it, and a system that's easy to use when I need it, rather than an all in one system where I have to be an expert when it's easy and trick the system into letting me be an expert when I want to.

Different systems for different purposes. I don't use UNIX to play games, I use it to run servers and workstations.

The PVR idea is neat because it seems when it's setup it's done and you don't have to touch it anymore, unless you want to make additions or upgrade. This fits more of a "server" role for me.

Re:And this is why Linux is not mainstream

[Medgur]

Ok, I normally don't post, but this is just absurd.

This isn't an "off the shelf" set up like an easy to use Windows or Macintosh machine, and this certainly isn't a boot and use knoppix set up. This is a hack.

Comparing the ease of setting up a MythTV box to using a basic Macintosh or Windows install is beyond unreasonable, it's purely inane.

Of course, you could use KnoppMyth.

Re:Broadcast flag coming up...

[Anonymous Coward]

It's the responsibility of the driver and software to enforce the broadcast flag, not the hardware. There are open source Linux drivers for many DVB cards, so even if the hardware supports the flag, open source drivers are clearly not going to enforce it. Vendors that fail to provide specs or open source drivers will simply have their products reverse engineered anyway. This has happened with many current video encoders (look at the Hauppage PVR-350 series and other DVB devices) and there is virtually nothing the manufacturers can do to stop it.

another downside to TiVo

[enrico_suave]

Soon TiVo users will be able to share DRM'd dongle enabled shows because the FCC said they could (despite the NFL and MPAA's best efforts)

Me I just edit out some commercials, burn a DVD, and go! Now only if there was something worth archiving =(

I can play MAME, pull up local movie schedules, RSS feeds (*cough slashdot*), instant weather (no waiting on the 8's on TWC for me) on my DIY PVR, not so much with those features on the TiVo =)

And since it's PC based, it's somewhat trivial to add new features or ideas as I come up with them (or the community writes more apps). I don't have to wait for corporate bigwigs to decide how I want to watch TV/use my DVR/PVR... I decide.

The price you pay for the level of customization/freedom is:

1. possibly more initial costs
2. time/effort
3. more time
4 patience =)

I think it's worth it, because I like TV/PVR's, and I like futzing around with my PC case off... and it's an another excuse to buy a dremel (for case modding)

e.

Re:bleh

[Anonymous Coward]

Tivo cost $299 for lifetime subscription or $12.95 monthly fee so that pretty much negates any cost advantage. Plus with MythTV you can do a hell of a lot more than just record TV. Its not for everyone but it can do a lot more than a glorified vcr. Plus with Tivo there is no guarantee they won't go under or be bought out and have fees raised. Plus there are the networks who don't even like tivo and do things like start show early or late just to screw with you. Paying $299 to Tivo is a pretty risky investment IMHO.

Re:Or

[bhhenry]

Just for clarity, that's the "lifetime" of the unit, not your lifetime. Too bad if you want to upgrade.

Re:Or

[erick99]

Only 300 hours? When do you folks watch all of this tv that you are recording? I have a hard time watching a few hours a week without the help of even a VCR. I love tv, don't get me wrong. I just have no idea when I would be able to watch 300 or more hours of tv. And, I am assuming that the PVR's are sucking in more each day. I would get panicky wondering when I could catch up . . . .

Cheers,

Erick

Re:Or

[Rude Turnip]

Lifetime service fee of $300...if you go to sell your Tivo on Ebay, you're guaranteed to recoup 100% of that lifetime fee, if nothing for the hardware.

same old feel'n, different skills

[POds]

incase someone hasnt noticed, this isnt just about saving money, its about doing it your self, which gives you great satisfaction. You dads may have had skills to be a welder, carpender or even auto machenic. When he'd come home, he'd fix the car, make a coffee table, helb build a bird avery or build a varendah (patio?). Basicly, what our dads or mums did when we were kids, we're doing right now. Only, things have changed a little and the skills too. We come home from our software engineering jobs or even if we dont have a coding job but we're still tech savy or closet geeks, much like their would have been closet mechanics? boiler makers? Anyway, it's the same old thing, doing it your self gives you great satisfaction, despite the cost, even though it should prolly work out cheaper. For me, its satisfaction of doing the job but also learning it so i can show off my skills to others :). And really, thats been going on for years and years.

Re:same old feel'n, different skills

[HarveyBirdman]

You dads may have had skills to be a welder, carpender or even auto machenic. When he'd come home, he'd fix the car, make a coffee table, helb build a bird avery or build a varendah (patio?).

Yeah, but the car is pretty important, and home improvements have a retun on the investment of sweat equity.

I bought a Tivo despite being pretty damn tech savvy (I'm a hardware engineer AND software engineer BOW TO ME!) because, well, it's just friggin television. I use a DVR to reduce my time wasted on television.

The real satisfaction is in creating something original. The MythTV thing seems more like a Heathkit approach. Follow the directions and you're done.

For you young whippersnappers who don't know what a Heathkit was: http://www.heathkit-museum.com/

They don't....

[AllenChristopher]

It's about instant gratification and control.

Want to watch that Seinfeld episode with the toothbrush? You can pull it up only if you have all 100 or so hours of Seinfeld stored.

You probably don't want to watch it yourself. You probably want to show it to someone else. "There was this great episode of such and such the other day, man, you should have seen it."

Call it an extension of memory. It's well worth reading what C.S. Lewis said about this in "Perelandra", and of course if the text were online I could link you to the right bit.

These sorts of people used to download a lot more music before the iTunes music store for the same reason. They want to be able to have any song, any time. Now you don't have to download the song until you want to hear it because you know the download will work.

The music packratting is starting to fall off... you don't stockpile every kind of snack just in case you have a craving because you trust 7-11. The video packratting is just getting started.

Buy foreign

[BobSutan]

Buy a foreign card. That will help add a little pressure to the American tech companies to stick up for us *little people*. When they start getting hit where it counts because of stupid legislation maybe next time they'll think twice about caving in so easily.

Re:But how GOOD is Zap2It guide data?

[The Vulture]

(As a note to anybody else curious about the Zap2It data, it really only works in North America.)

Before MythTV 0.15 came out, the data from Zap2It was "scraped" by grabbing HTML pages from their website and ripping the data from there. It worked, but Zap2It constantly broke the scrapers.

With MythTV 0.15, it seems that Issac (the core developer of MythTV) and Zap2It have worked out an agreement, where MythTV users can subscribe to Zap2It's guide data for free. The catch though is that in order to continue receiving guide data, you must fill in a survey every few months. (In case you're wondering, the last survey I got was something like, "What program are you using with the Zap2It service", and "Enter any comments you have on our service").

The guide data is pretty good, and you get guide data for 12 days (that's what I seem to get). Of course, you do have to run a script every night (although MythTV 0.15 can supposedly do this for you, it doesn't seem to work for me, so I use an entry in my crontab).

I have noticed that MythTV, when retrieving data from Zap2It (at least on the old scraper) would actually grab data for every day (not just a one day increment), just in case there was a schedule change on a show.

-- Joe

Re:bleh

[The Vulture]

Heck yes!

I paid more than the $600 for my MythTV machine, but then again, I went pretty high end (dual PVR-250's, Athlon XP 2400+, fancy Antec Sonata case, etc.). It has more than paid for itself, in the ability to:
1. Skip commercials without hacking it.
2. Play my DVDs (my other DVD player is an XBox)
3. I can use a universal remote, so that I only have one remote - mind you, I think that even TiVo has some sort of universal remote control now
4. I can play games in MAME while recording TV shows
5. Weather forecasts
6. MP3 playback
7. And more...

My only concern is when my PVR-250 cards will be obsoleted due to mandatory HDTV broadcasts, and/or encryption.

-- Joe

I don't want a Tivo

[Anonymous Coward]

I just built a MythTV box. It cost more than a Tivo and took a fair amount of time and effort.

I love it. This project is not about saving money, or convenience. It's about fun. It's also about control. I'm having fun. My box does what I want it to, not what someone else thinks will sell best. If I want three tuners, I can have them. I can have as little or as much storage as I want. I can watch shows from any computer on my network. I can transcode recorded shows into any format. It's all about the freedom to do whatever I am willing to put the effort into.

If you want to save money, buy a Tivo, it's a good product. If you want convenience, rent a dvr from your cable company. I want more than that, and am willing to spend the time and money to get it.

Re:Or

[timeOday]

You can buy a TiVo for $99.

Well, that was the topic of the 2nd paragraph of the article. Not that you read it of course.

Anyways, TiVo is always going to offer restricted functionality - after all we wouldn't want to open up the possibility of piracy just so you can do whatever you want with your own hardware.

Then there's the fact that they monitor and record everything you do with your TiVo.

Oh, and reserve part of your(?) hard drive to record programs of their own choosing.

And the pesky subscription fees.

And you can't add a second (or third...) tuner to the Tivo to expand its capabilities, or even put in a bigger hard drive without voiding the warranty.

And of course the TiVo can't also be your fileserver, mailserver, webserver, WiFi access point, mp3 jukebox, and DVD player like my under-the-TV linux box is.

Re:Or

[whmac33]

If that's all you want then buy a Tivo.

I have a couple friends that think my MythTV setup is neat. They like the interface, like how I can record 3 shows at once, like how I can watch recordings in the bedroom on my bedroom PC, like how I can burn recordings to a DVD, etc.

But it's not for them. They don't want to deal with compiling and using experimental drivers that sometimes don't work right. They don't want to deal with trying to figure out why it crashes randomly or why audio ticks or how to setup the cron job to update the schedule. But this is the stuff I enjoy. It's fun tinkering. No one is out to compete with Tivo. MythTV developers wrote MythTV for themselves and shared it with the world. Users like myself have submitted patches when needed to make something work the way we want. That's what I like about Myth and why I use it. Yes I spent a lot of money on it but I didn't do it to save money. If I wanted to save money I'd borrow a book from the library. Maybe a grammer book that says when to start a new paragraph.

Billy

Excellent Documentation?

[elmegil]

I don't know what those reviewers are smoking. Don't get me wrong; I have a Myth box, and I like it a lot. The software itself rocks. But the documentation is a huge haystack of braindumps without a map. These guys put Myth onto a box in a relatively short period of time, modulo distribution problems. That sounds to me like they've read and reread and rereread the docs enough times that they know what's where--they've done it before and don't need a map any longer. For a first time Myth user, the docs are going to blow your brain into little pieces, and it's going to take you a long time just to absorb what's relevant to your system from them unless you have a really standard (i.e. just like the developers') machine.

Oh, by the way? I have a job already, and a family, and a life. So don't tell me it's my fault I can't digest the haystacks and make a map for the world. I'm a supporter of Myth, I'm just saying that the review does not set reasonable expectations for the effort it takes unless you're installing KnoppMyth.

Re:Or

[nmos]

The only real argument for putting this together is because it can be done. Which is a good reason in almost any case, this one included, I agree. To pitch a DIY PVR as though it is cheaper and easier than a Tivo is just silly though.

I agree with the cost part of that especially because none of us know how long guide data will be available for free. On the other hand my wife has no problem using MythTV nor do friends and family. It really is just as easy to use as a Tivo. Also, adding MythMusic and MythVideo makes my MythTV setup far more functional than any Tivo.

Re:Only 15 minutes to put hardware together?

[strider44]

what has installing windows XP and SP2 got to do with MythTV on a linux box?

Re:Only 15 minutes to put hardware together?

[PedanticSpellingTrol]

And that's why I only buy Antec.