10 Points About Transgaming's Cedega/WineX

jvm writes "Attempting to raise the level of the discussion, Dan 'theoddone33' Olson has put together a list of ten critical observations that every potential Linux gamer should consider before buying Transgaming's WINE-based product Cedega (formerly WineX). Dan invites credible rebuttals to the points he's raised. The debate over the value of Cedega/WINE as a solution for the nascent Linux gaming community continues..."

Comments

Re:Slashdotted already?

[usefool]

here are the 10 points if you can't get to the site

# Performance

Cedega is designed to maximize compatibility with Windows games. However, many users find that their favorite games work poorly in Cedega, if at all. While TransGaming offers voting services to determine the most popular games, there are still hundreds of games that are not playable in Cedega. For games that are not officially supported by TransGaming, users may find that the performance of Cedega is "hit or miss."

# Pricing

TransGaming charges $5 a month for the use of the commercial version of Cedega, yet makes a development version freely available. The commercial version has additional support for games that use copy-protection methods such as SafeDisc, among other features. The commercial version of Cedega requires a minimum subscription of 3 months, and all games that it can be used with must be purchased separately.

# Progress

TransGaming's list of supported titles has not grown significantly since the first release of WineX in 2001. Today, less than 10 games have been given a 5-star rating, meaning that they can be expected to run without problems. Many games run with only minor annoyances, but they are not officially supported. TransGaming has also been criticized for slow release times, with 3 month subscriptions starting and ending without seeing a new release.

# Potential

TransGaming has stated that their goal is 100% compatibility with Windows games. However, it is highly improbable that they will ever attain this goal. Windows and Direct3D are in active development, and TransGaming developers will always be playing a game of "catch-up", while at the same time trying to find and fix current bugs in Cedega. In a sense, Cedega's destiny is tied to Microsoft as much as it is tied to TransGaming.

# Priorities

While TransGaming still offers Cedega to Linux gamers for the time being, it is clear that their primary interests reside elsewhere. They actively produce titles for Mac OSX, and their website advertises plans to support XBox and PS2 in the future. TransGaming has stated that no income from Cedega subscriptions is used to fund their other ventures, but while their finances may not be divided, the same cannot be said of their interests.

# Promises

TransGaming began with the promise to release their changes to the Wine project under an "open" license when the number of subscribers reached 20,000. Shortly after this, they introduced code into the project which they are not able to release openly due to contractual obligations. While the current number of subscribers has not been publically announced, it is doubtful that TransGaming would be able to release all of their changes when this milestone is reached. TransGaming has, however, given code back to Wine at various times.

# Packaging

While TransGaming offers a free development version of Cedega, they have repeatedly threatened Linux distributions that have offered packages of it to their users. Debian and Gentoo have both withdrawn packages of the development version of Cedega at the request of TransGaming, who stated that they would no longer offer the free version if it was packaged by third-party Linux distributions.

# Portability

TransGaming advertises Cedega as the world's foremost portability solution, and they claim that it can be used to migrate applications seamlessly between platforms such as PC, PS2, and even PDAs. These claims are sketchy for a variety of technical reasons. One example is that most PC games use over 100M of memory, while the PS2 has only 32M of main RAM. Cedega's strategy of reinterpreting runtime calls is likely to add more overhead than it can reduce, and is not sufficient for this task.

# Propaganda

For as long as TransGaming has had a website, it has been filled with dubious claims about the company, about the game industry, and about porting software. Unsurprisingly, most of these claims paint TransGaming in a positiv

Slashdotted, but I bought it last month, so...

[26199]

Have to say I was impressed... I can now play Counterstrike without rebooting, which is very nice. Doom 3 works too. It's cheap, it works, haven't seen any reason to complain.

It actually makes me think of Linux as a viable platform for games... not a viable platform in five years' time, but a viable platform now.

Re:Slashdotted, but I bought it last month, so...

[Anonymous Coward]

ID games will be releasing an Linux binary for Doom3; Unreal Tournament has been Linux compatabile for awhile now, as is NeverWinter Nights. When I use a Linux native version, it sends the manufactures a message that Linux is a viable gaming platform. When I use Cedega, I don't send that message.

Transgaming has also prevented at least one native port from making it to market, as I recall; I believe it was one of the Kohan series. Perhaps another /.-er can fill in the details?

Re:Slashdotted, but I bought it last month, so...

[PhoenixFlare]

It actually makes me think of Linux as a viable platform for games... not a viable platform in five years' time, but a viable platform now.

Maybe, unless you want to use WineX to play something that's not an MMORPG, FPS, or RTS game, with a few exceptions - personally, the last time I tried it I couldn't get anything to work but Diablo II and Starcraft, and even then they had several major playability problems.

More specifically, I tried it about 1.5 years ago, followed the installation directions to the letter. Then tried getting several games (Starcraft, Homeworld, Warcraft II, Diablo II, Civ II, even freaking 10-year old Lemmings wouldn't run right) to work for about a month with almost no success, and cancelled my subscription in disgust.

I'd love to give it another shot, but the only games people ever mention it working with are the same ones over and over again. As well, their game database lists a massive number of non-working titles still, and if a poster on the linked story is to be believed, they're not even updating the database anymore.

Doesn't exactly make me want to shell out more money. I'm sure there's others like you out there who are happy with it and have everything you want working, but I suspect you're in the minority.

What the hell is /. doing posting this tripe?

[marcushnk]

I'm sick of these halfwitts sledging a real contributer to the gaming industry in Linux.
These guys have a good history, yeah its not squeeky clean but so bloody what?!?
They contributed to Loki's technology, Gavriel is on good Terms with Ryan (Icculus) and there are many other linux NATIVE technologies that owe their success in part to direct help from Transgaming.

FFS, if you don't like them then DON'T BLOODY use their product, stop stabbing the poor bastards in the back. /rant over
*mutter grumble* *kicks cat*

Re:What the hell is /. doing posting this tripe?

[rpdillon]

The real problem is that half the people say:

"Yeah, everything runs great! WTG Trangaming!! Best $15 I ever spent!"

and the other half say:

"What a piece of shit! Nothing runs, and I tried 37 games! Screw Transgaming, I want my money back!"

And that was my finding...that some people get it to work, and other simply cannot (often, but not always, how much time you want to put into trying to work out all the idiosyncracies).

But that is enough of a problem: if I *pay* for a commercial product, I shouldn't have to pay and THEN find out if some games I want work for me...performance should be consistent. Further, it IS commercial; if I made you pay for software, you'd expect it to work...not that you'd have to spend 6 or 7 hours every so often to get your money out of it.

Don't get confused: we are used to Linux and other free software (as in beer) that we don't have to pay for, but have to spent hours configuring, learning and tweaking to get it to work sometimes. And its worth it, because we learn, and we get free software, and maybe can give something back to the community.

But with Transgaming, its NOT free software, and I shouldn't have to spend hours at a time trying to get acceptable performance out of games I *already* paid for once. Now I have to pay twice, AND spend a lot of time screwing around with esoteric settings, and in the end, it may or may not work, and I don't know if it will EVER work.

Name one other commerical program that charges you monthly (to the tune of $60 a year), simply to use their software which may or may not work as advertised, whose performance varies so wildly that you simply cannot predict whether it will work for you or not until you pay up. I'd say it takes a full work week of my spare time/year to try to set up games I want to play and find out if they will even run - often without success.

Man, I just convinced myself to go cancel my subscription.

Windows games = Windows community

[Trurl's Machine]

The debate over the value of Cedega/WINE as a solution for the nascent Linux gaming community continues..."

I think this debate is pointless. If you purchase a Windows game, you are a member of the Windows gaming community, period. It doesn't matter if you play it on native Wintel platform or on Macintosh emulating x86/Windows via Virtual PC - or Linux emulating Windows APIs. The next logical step is to quit all your Linux activity and reboot your computer to MS Windows, the same game will run even better then. The *only* way to build Linux gaming community is via native Linux ports, just as the relatively small Macintosh gaming community does. Mac users got used to waiting months or years for native ports to be released. They don't complain paying premium prices for games whose Windows ports are already in bargain bins. There will be no "Linux gaming community", not until Linux gamers accept similar solution.

Google's Cache of The Link

[unixmaster]

http://216.239.59.104/search?q=cache:X7e-egvZJeoJ: curmudgeongamer.com/article.php%3Fstory%3D20040904 215153278+&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

No problems here with the games I play

[ScottGant]

Actually, I agree with you.

I spent my 15 bucks...15 measly bucks...and installed it. It works great for me on the games I play with it...the same ones that I used to play when I had XP a year ago. Everquest runs faster for me than it did on XP...Warcraft 3 runs great, Steam/Half-Life/Counterstrike runs great also...there are some bumps with Steam as it updates itself...but they fix them.

I have no complaints with my whopping 15 bucks I spent on this. If I didn't like them, or they were not doing what I wanted it to do, then I wouldn't buy it anymore. Plain and simple.

And besides, most of the other games I play have a native Linux client on them anyway.

Re:Slashdotted already?

[JohnFluxx]

Hmm, is this the best top 10 they can do?

I see nothing particulary evil or bad of transgaming. Seems like a small company struggling to get along. They provide a service, and some people pay for it. $5 a month is next to nothing.

Re:Slashdotted already?

[ScottGant]

# Performance
The games I play actually run faster on my system than they do on my wife's XP system. I guess I'm doing something wrong.

# Pricing
15 bucks...wow...that's like...3/4 of a $20...

# Progress
In the 3 months I've "subscribed" to it they've had 2 major releases.

# Potential
True, they play catch up with MS...but what else can they do, they have to see where MS is going so they know how to emulate the calls MS is calling for etc etc. They can't just make the shit up and hope MS follows THEM? Right?

# Priorities
Oh, so a company can't have two areas where they're branching off? Apple released the iPod, did everyone start screaming saying they were going to abandon the Mac or now their interests lay elsewhere? Come on.

# Promises
Sounds like a wash here. No opinion either way. They do release back to the community though, but perhaps not enough it seems.

# Packaging
Agreed here. They should let the distos have it as a package at least. The development package.

# Propaganda
Sounds like this point is propaganda itself. Notice that he offers no proof that they "fail to hold up under scrutiny". Ok, how so? Honestly, I'd like to know...break it down for me because frankly I'm too lazy. But then again, I don't belive 90% of the claims of any product...even the ones I like. lol (i'm joking people...don't get your panties in a bunch).

# Prevention
He states: There is speculation that Cedega... Ok...SPECULATION? So, how is this a bad mark on their part? I could speculate also doesn't make it true. And as we can see, companies are still making ports for Linux. But he did pull it together at the end.

I don't know...he makes some points to make one think...and they would be worth thinking if it weren't for the fact that Cedega cost me all of $15 bucks and it works great with the games I throw at it.

And that's kind of a hard thing to complain about...if it works, it works. And for me it works. Doesn't work for you, not much I can do about it. I can't rally around something that works for me and doesn't work for others. I mean, how can I do that? I would just be repeating what others are saying and not going from personal experience: "Boo...down with Transgaming! BOOO...Yes, it works for me on the games I play...but I've heard that others have problems with it...so BOOO!"

I'd sound like and idiot! Ok...perhaps I already do.

TransGaming helps Linux gaming

[kravlor]

Disclaimer: I am a TransGaming subscriber.

I decided to try out TransGaming's Cedega product shortly after it was released. In addition to their modified wineserver, they have come out with a game manager, Point2Play. This tool has made it _easy_ to install and configure games.

I think that the fact that TransGaming has been able to successfully negotiate with vendors providing copy-protection and other proprietary code for use with Cedega is a big step towards making Linux a more predominant gaming platform. (I was pleasantly surprised to find that some of my titles, such as Warcraft III, ran better with the Cedega emulation!)

While I prefer the idea of native Linux builds of games, there are also many (older) titles that simply will never be ported over. The best thing that we can do at this point is to vote with our wallets. For now, that means TransGaming will keep getting my subscription!

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

Thoughts on the article

[sloanster]

The article raises some good points, but is focusing on the wrong things - Lets face it, transgaming wine/x is a neat hack, and what it does is very cool.

I am a pretty regular gamer, and have wasted far too much time on 3D FPS titles like q3a, RtCW, ut2004 etc - and I have the doom3 linux version pre-ordered. I use linux, and really don't have any plans to set up a pc just for gaming, as the games I like are available natively on linux. I feel that the market should decide the success of transgaming - if you like it, feel free, but count me out, thanks!

The reason I'm not interested in in running windows games in linux via wine is that if we take that to its logical conclusion, there will be no market for native linux games - idsoft has it right, their games are written in a portable fashion, and have pretty much the same performance on linux/X11/DRI as on the simple pc GUI used by ms windows. Let's face it, once a gamer plays native linux games, he will be dissatisfied with the emulated variety, and it would be a real shame if that's all there was.

All in all, the wine solution is a nice hack, and useful as a temporary kludge, but we are sunk if that becomes the norm and all game development becomes ms windows centric, and we become the new OS/2, inhabiting a shrinking niche and dying a slow death. Fsck that! The native linux gaming market is the thing we need to support with our wallets, if we want to see it thrive.

Re:Slashdotted already?

[bman08]

I've invested in this product 3 seperate times. So we're looking at 45 bucks at this point, and it's worked HORRIBLY every time.

They've also been dishonest about not competing with native ports. Yet Quake and RTCW were, last time I looked, on the list of supported games.

I'm glad you're having such good luck with the product. For me, even games with a '4' rating generall work horribly, or are such a PITA to install that it's not worth it.

You're also very lucky to get one new release with a three month subscription. I'd feel way less decieved by these guys if they'd just sell the product for 10 or fifteen bucks and not pretend that I was becoming a 'member' of something.

Games that work under WineX/Cedega

[FuzzyBad-Mofo]

Since the article is slashdotted, here's a list of games that I run successfully under WineX 3.2.1 (not even the current version):

• Age of Empires II
• Icewind Dale
• GTA 3
• GTA: Vice City
• Baldur's Gate II
• Diablo II
• Starcraft
• Warcraft II BNE
• Fallout II
• Max Payne
• Thief (Gold)
• Thief II
• Deus Ex
• Grim Fandango

Not all of these work perfectly; for example BGII network play is not available. However, for the most part these are totally playable and sometimes even run better than the same games running under Windows. I really wish Transgaming would put more effort into supporting older games, but I guess more gamers want to play Counter Strike 2, not Diablo I.

Doom 3 but no QuickBooks?

[copponex]

This is sad... people can play Doom 3 on their linux partition, but they can't run QuickBooks?! It makes me wonder of the linux community *really* wants the desktop business market.

I have my boss and all employees on Firefox/Thunderbird. I've removed the little E icon but pinned it to the start menu for dumb sites like Ingram Micro and - unbelievably - slashdot. If there were a bit of software similar to a multi-user GnuCash that could import quickbooks files, I cannot tell you how many businesses I could have switched by the Q4.

We have a small window of time before MS breaks all the wine/crossover compatibility with Longhorn. Don't miss it.

Re:Doom 3 but no QuickBooks?

[IamTheRealMike]

Disclaimer: I work for CodeWeavers.

I agree wholeheartedly. I'm doing my best to support Codeweavers, but it's hard sometimes. I get especially frustrated when I see them concentrating an entire release on making iTunes work instead of something like Quickbooks.

Actually, we are almost always working on multiple things at once. Often quite a few of us are working on bugfixes for large, corporate proprietary apps - this is mostly separate to our CrossOver work where we focus on the home/enthusiast Linux users market. The contract work we do for such programs isn't public but the patches go back to WineHQ immediately just the same as work for CrossOver does.

Often these bugfixes are the sort of thing which affect many GUI desktop apps, including things like QuickBooks. So you could say we are working on it in an indirect way.

But I know, I know, you want us to work on QuickBooks specifically, so it runs in CrossOver. Believe me, we'd love to do that too - the only Windows machine in our office is used by the secretary (or as we call her, our Chief Non Geek). She's said she'd be happy to run Linux. So why doesn't she? Right, you guessed it - we use QuickBooks ourselves.

Unfortunately, being a (small) company that isn't exactly rolling in money, we have to focus entirely on what our customers are most willing to pay for. As you can see from our top voted apps list iTunes comes first by a long way with 118 votes, and QuickBooks Pro comes in at number 22 with 16 votes. We can't magically divine what CrossOver users are willing to pay for, so we have to go via these sorts of lists.

I hope that explains our slightly odd focus. Unfortunately Linux on the corporate desktop hasn't taken off yet: given the huge resources Red Hat and Novell are marshalling behind it I'm hoping it has to happen soon, but currently, it hasn't. That means Wine development is driven mostly by personal users.

I noticed in their bug list the other day somebody asked them to support UPS Worldship, which is a *simple* app that would be perfect for running on Linux. Their response was "no" without even considering it

Our bugzilla isn't public so I guess you are talking about the C4 site I linked to above. Our experience shows that there is no such thing as a "simple" app when it comes to Wine - even very straightforward and apparently simple programs can make use of obscure functionality or hit edge-case bugs in Wine that mean they don't work right. By definition if somebody asked us to support it, it doesn't work correctly. We can either choose to spend the time tracking and fixing those bugs, or the bugs that affect high profile, popular apps.

Fortunately we're supported by (and in turn support) the Wine community. We resync with WineHQ regularly (every few weeks usually) so it's definitely possible that a fix for UPS Worldship will make it in from there, or we'll fix it in the course of making other apps work. We term this "collatoral damage", somewhat flippantly - basically it means that as we work on improvements for one program, all the others start working better as well. For example, Office now runs about 50% faster (according to officebench) in the upcoming CrossOver 3.1 relative to 3.0 due entirely to optimizations developed whilst working on iTunes.

OK, I hope I explained how we set our priorities well enough. Thanks for supporting us and the Wine project!

The definition of irony

[Sivar]

Since my gaming system was "upgraded" to Windows XP from 2000, Starcraft decided that certain doors inside of buildings would cause a crash-to-desktop when opened. Seeing as how you must open some to get through the game, this was a bad thing.
I tried various tricks (disable sound/change drivers/reinstall/different media/3 different systems) and even contact tech support.
The *only* way I was able to get past these points was to run them in Cedega on my laptop.

Thus, in some situations, Cedega is more compatible with Windows games than Windows itself.