Michael Moore Seeks TV Airing of Fahrenheit 9/11

telstar writes "According to Michael Moore's website, he plans to forgoe the nomination for Best Documentary in an effort to get his highly controversial movie Farenheit 9/11 on television. Despite having no assurances from the home video distributor, Moore hopes to air the film prior to the November elections ... suggesting the eve of the elections as a potential air date. Considering how many questions have been raised as to whether Moore's movie presents truth or propaganda, one has to wonder whether airing such a controvercial movie on the eve of an election helps or hurts the political process by influencing the vote with last-minute emotions rather than thoroughly contemplation."

Comments

questions have been raised

[dirvish]

You've got questions? He's got answers.

Re:questions have been raised

[savagedome]

Before everyone starts flaming, everything in the documentary was 'facts'. Now, the way he presented them was his own spin on the 'truth'. You need to take it with a grain of salt.

Nobody wants to talk about the real issues anyway. Both the parties are busy butchering each other on stupid stuff.

Re:questions have been raised

[dnno]

And what, may I ask makes his answers correct?

Re:questions have been raised

[dirvish]

How about his sources?

Re:questions have been raised

[MORTAR_COMBAT!]

there's some irony in linking to one man's website to rebut the statements on another man's website.

Re:questions have been raised

[Speare]

And what, may I ask makes his answers correct?

You are under the naive delusion (common of geeks and kids) that there is a crisp and objective "correct answer" to everything, and that knowing the correct answer will solve anything.

Re:questions have been raised

[iceperson]

I guess if you call altering newspaper editorials and letters to the editor "facts". If I interview 20 people and 6 of them agree with me and I only use those 6 to support my point of view even though 14 disagreed then did I represent "fact"? The way I see it there are lies, damned lies, and Moore "documentaries".

Re:questions have been raised

[nojomofo]

Or, for instance, if you call thousands of voters in South Carolina, and ask them how they'd feel if they were to find out that John McCain had an illegitimate black child, that implies that he does. Not false, but deceptive. But, gee, wonder what the intent was. That would be to deceive the voting public.

Re:questions have been raised

[Jeff DeMaagd]

Right on.

I thought it was funny when a newspaper sued Moore
because they say he represented a letter to the editor as a front page headline story, and changed the date of the letter. I wonder what happened to that suit.

Re:questions have been raised

[Rei]

Wait... is the best thing that you can come up with the fact that they got the date on an article wrong and changed the font? Seriously? That's poor copyediting, the sort of thing done by a low-pay graphics guy. Is a copyediting error the best thing you can come up with? Seriously? Do you think Moore was behind the scenes, going, "Despite all of these headlines out there reporting that Gore won the election, I want you to take a letter to the editor instead and make it look like a headline, and tweak its date!" ?

----
Although offering no apology, the letter from Chatillon, who represents Westside Productions, which produced "Fahrenheit 9/11," did admit the date of The Pantagraph page flashed in the movie "was unfortunately off by a couple weeks." But the mistake "did not make a difference to the editorial point ... and was in no way detrimental to (The Pantagraph.)"
----

Besides, what was stated was completely true - Gore won the recount in the vast majority of counting methods (in fact, pretty much every one that Gore himself didn't request, including the one that was going to go through statewide had the US Supreme Court respected states rights and not stepped in).

Re:questions have been raised

[ackthpt]

Or, for instance, if you call thousands of voters in South Carolina, and ask them how they'd feel if they were to find out that John McCain had an illegitimate black child, that implies that he does. Not false, but deceptive. But, gee, wonder what the intent was. That would be to deceive the voting public.

I've wondered why nobody has pursued Bush's illegitimate and aborted child the same way they have the TANG stuff. What I've read of it was he had a former girlfriend pregnant and the child was quietly aborted and suddenly nobody has any information on it and the former girlfriend refused to discuss it. I understand issues of privacy, but politics in the past have done little to ensure protection of individuals when the stakes are high.

Re:questions have been raised

[Burpmaster]

And you imply that this 877 number existed when the movie was made. A quick search for the number you gave found this link. A check on archive.org found that page was first archived on July 6, 2004, almost two weeks after Fahrenheit 9/11 was released in theaters.

Re:questions have been raised

[Anonymous Coward]

I've wondered why nobody has pursued Bush's illegitimate and aborted child

Probably because they're all on the same alien spacecraft with Art Bell, wearing tin-foil hats and talking with Elvis. What gives with people buying into this stuff anyway? Why do otherwise intelligent people suspend all critical thinking and go Unabomber wacko when they hear or see a conservative?

A friend of mine had an interesting theory (which he based on my behavior, amusingly). I used to be significantly overweight, and have since lost it all and am in good shape. When I see overweight people, especially fat geeky introverted guys, I tend to really get disgusted with them. I'd want to go over to them and tell them to put the 60 ounce sugar fountain drink down and get a grip on their life.

My friend (a wanna be shrink, I think) observed that I'd react most severely to people that were like the part of me I was irresponsible with. Some sort of self hatred I projected into these beefy nerds. Look at the ABB (Anybody But Bush) crowd. Their hatred is equally emotional and irrational. A bunch I know scream about him being a former alcoholic and alleged coke user. "He's no better than anyone else." Curiously, those that scream the most are the ones who refuse to get control of their own substance abuse issues. And isn't it curious that the party that has made abortion rights a perpetual issue is accusing Bush of having one? Yes, they claim hypocracy, but don't they have a mirror in their house?

My recommendation to all you loathing, under-successful people of intelligence and potential: Get off of the loser trip today. Set down these two rules for yourself:

1. Do not let yourself condemn or criticize anyone else. You've got enough to work on with yourself. Deep down, you know you're projecting self-hatred onto others. You know hating Bush or Kerry not only doesn't fix your own problems, but is a lie to yourself that allows you to pretend you're doing something when you're not.

2. Establish your principles and DO NOT SACRIFICE THEM FOR ANYTHING. Be consistent - this is your gold standard and the definition of your self value. This is what you'll be remembered for - not for all the attacks you made on other people, or how you were a "master of nuance" (history looks very negatively upon such intellectual frauds). If you believe it is wrong for people to be attacking your candidate on his Viet Nam service, then apply it to both candidates. If you think it would be wrong for George Bush to come out with the espose the night before the election on Kerry's affairs or nasty details on his divorce/affairs, then stand up and oppose Michael Moore doing the same to Bush. The more you stand up for the other side or other guy, the more you'll find your objectivity strenghtening.

I didn't become un-fat before I started dealing with my lies, delusions and hatred of myself as expressed in others. Give it a shot and live won't suck so much!

Re:questions have been raised

[Burpmaster]

Additional info: I found this article, which mentions specifically that the number was created afterwards:

"Fahrenheit 911" continues to make news:

The Gallup Poll reports only 38 percent of movie goers have a favorable impression of the controversial, anti-Bush film by Michael Moore, based on what they have heard and read about it. Republicans hate it by a six-to-one margin, while Democrats applaud it, four-to-one.

One scene in the propaganda-documentary that always draws chuckles from viewers features Florida GOP Rep. Porter Goss inviting people to call a "toll-free number" to voice their concerns about the Patriot Act. But the flick notes that no such number existed at the time and offered Goss' office number in its stead.

There is one now -- 1-877-858-9040 -- on the Web site of the House intelligence committee, which Goss chairs. A spokeswoman wouldn't say whether the deluge of calls to her boss' office contributed to the establishment of the toll-free line.

Despite its focus on GIs against the Iraq war, the Pentagon's Army and Air Force Exchange Service intends to distribute copies to U.S. bases worldwide.

Re:questions have been raised

[htmlboy]

thought it was funny when a newspaper sued Moore because they say he represented a letter to the editor as a front page headline story, and changed the date of the letter. I wonder what happened to that suit.

iirc, they sued him for $1, since that's the minimal amount they could ask. the suit was only a means to seek a formal apology, which i believe they got.

Re:questions have been raised

[aixou]

Everything there has already been debunked in the War Room. If you want to discuss specifics with me, don't just post a link, post a particular. If not, every time you point me to that site, I'll point you to the War Room.


No, the war room skirts around the issues. Read more closesly at Kopel's page, he includes counters of Michael's "War room" counter arguments. There is so much goddamn spin and sleight of hand in F911 that it's difficult for me to take seriously at all. It's not that he isn't mostly accurate factually, its that he implies so much bullshit that you begin to drown in it half way though.

Carefully read through kopels page, and then read Moore's counter arguments, before you come to a decision on just how good of fact check Moore's war room does.

Re:questions have been raised

[Anonymous Coward]

Besides, what was stated was completely true - Gore won the recount in the vast majority of counting methods

Actually, this is not true. The fact is that Gore did not win the state in any of the recounts. And when the media did their own recount, Bush won using every recount standard except for the one that his lawyers were arguing should be used if a recount was to take place.

US Supreme Court respected states rights and not stepped in

I love it when people try to talk about "states' rights" without understanding what it means. The idea of "states' rights" means that the federal government should not interfere with the rights that the states hold under the Constitution. It also means that states should not exceed their rights and try to interfere with the government's rights. States do not have the right to violate the US Constitution and infringe upon the powers explicitly granted to the federal government.
Article 1, Section 4 of the Constitution states (emphasis added)

The Times, Places and Manner of holding Elections for Senators and Representatives, shall be prescribed in each State by the Legislature thereof; but the Congress may at any time by Law make or alter such Regulations, except as to the Places of chusing Senators.

And Congress did pass a law several years ago requiring that any disputes over the election of delegates to the Electorial College must be resolved under the laws that were in place on the day of the election. These means that the attempts of the Florida courts to change and create new law (by changing deadlines and creating a statewide recount) to help Gore were a violation of that federal law.

The Fourteenth Amendment guarantees citizens equal protection under the law, yet the Florida Supreme Court's final ruling created a situation where a voter's ballot could be counted differently depending on what county he voted in. This would hardly be equal treatment. When that ruling was issued, even the Chief Justice of the Florida Supreme Court said that the ruling would not survive a test of its Constitutionality and by a 7-2 ruling, the US Supreme Court said that it was unconstitutional (yes it was a 7-2 vote, the 5-4 ruling was only about what remedy should be ordered)

Any claim by Moore that Gore won Florida is best described by Shakesphere's words -

A tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.

Re:questions have been raised

[iwadasn]

When we were shown the videotape of the police beating rodney king, that was also skewed. It hardly showed the LAPD at their best, nor was it representative of the vast majority of LAPD officers, however... it was the truth. A single "mishap" of that magnitude is enough for a criminal case, and the fact that it might not happen all the time is irrelevant.

The vast majority of serial killers spend the vast majority of their time not killing, does that make it OK? Could you walk into a court of law and say "well, you do have my client on film killing someone, but he doesn't do that all the time, certainly less than one hour a month, how about we just let it slide".

The facts are the facts. Biased or not, what was shown in that movie should be enough to get bush nailed to the cross, even if it is a selection of his worst deeds.

Re:questions have been raised

[dup_account]

And this Kopel's page is full of absolute truths? Nice that you'll beleive one political operative so completely, but discount a different political operative... Could it be that Kopel's half truths and spins fit better with your picture of reality that Michael's do?

Re:questions have been raised

[Rei]

> Actually, this is not true.

Actually, it is true. Summing up the myths:

http://www.tallahassee.com/mld/tallahassee/news/ op inion/3973122.htm?template=contentModules/printsto ry.jsp

"Question: Who actually received the most votes in Florida's 2000 presidential election?

Answer: Al Gore. State election officials ultimately declared George W. Bush the winner by a margin of 537 votes, but during and after the election dispute, questions remained about the uncounted ballots of 175,010 voters, ballots that had been rejected by error-prone tabulating machines employed in many Florida counties. Confusion and conflict, much of it generated by partisan intrigue, prevented these ballots from being counted during the election controversy. However, in 2001 every uncounted ballot was carefully examined in a scientific study by the University of Chicago, which concluded that when all the votes were counted, more votes had been cast for Gore than for Bush.

Q: Why did some earlier post-election studies say just the opposite, that is, that Bush had actually won after all?

A: They did not really say this. They reported, instead, that Bush might have kept his lead if the manual recounts of machine-rejected ballots had been completed along the lines either requested by Gore or initially mandated by the Florida Supreme Court. In these recount scenarios, not all of the machine-rejected ballots would have been included. However, just before the U.S. Supreme Court intervened, the judge overseeing the final statewide recount was preparing to announce that the recount would cover all of the previously uncounted ballots."

Furthermore:

http://www.consortiumnews.com/2001/112101a.html

(the referenced Newsweek article is already in the archives, but I can probably dig it up for you if you want). The judge presiding over statewide recounts ordered overvotes to be counted - one of the several situations in which Gore would have won. Bush only would have won in the recounts that Gore requested.

> States do not have the right to violate the US Constitution and infringe upon the powers explicitly granted to the federal government.

You just quoted the constitution which completely backs up what Florida was doing - *THE STATE* makes the laws about how the elections are conducted, and the ultimate arbiter of *FLORIDA LAW* is the Florida Supreme court (the US supreme court can only decide if a florida law violates the US constitution). Apparently you're unfamiliar with the logic that the US supreme court used in their 5-4 decision - they actually claimed that because there was no way to guarantee "equal protection", you can't have a recount. Furthermore, they made this a non-precidental ruling, because it would trash states rights if they didn't.

And the decision *Was* 5-4. You're confusing your decisions. The 7-2 was a per curiam - or "unsigned" - statement that there were "constitutional problems". It was a rather mild statement, however, and focused mainly on the fact that it would have been hard, if not impossible, to complete them by the date required. The 5-4 was the actual vote on the case.

Re:questions have been raised

[osbornk]

People always talked about all these mysterious votes that were not counted. What about the fact that the media declared Gore the winner before all the polls in Florida had closed. Remember that Florida is in two time zones. And the panhandle is heavily Republican. And guess what, there was a very low voter turnout in the panhandle because they thought that Gore had already won in Florida.

Re:questions have been raised

[Knara]

Of course, anyone spouting this line shows they have no concept of how legislative process (and politics in the US in general)works.

Let's take a hypothetical example:

I write a bill. It is good. It goes through committees and ends up with a hundred unrelated riders.

Now, my friend, he doesn't mind those 100 riders, so he votes on the initial bill. The bill doesn't get enough votes, gets sent back to committee.

In that committee, it gets reworked, a few more riders. Gets sent back to congress. It gets voted for debate (my friend votes for the debate to happen), and then in the process a few more motions get approved that tack a few more provisions on that bill.

Now, one of those provisions says that some state can take more water from the Colorado river than it already does. The Colorado river is already under huge pressure from water users, and my friend is a representative from CO. Therefore, when the bill comes up, he votes against it because he can't approve a legislative measure that would deprive his already drought-conditioned constituents of even more water.

Problem is, that bill would have provided affordable housing for 250,000 families across the country.

So, when my friend is up for election, his staff pulls the voting records, and presto! My friend is "against affordable housing for working class families". Even better, he flip-flopped on the issue, because "he voted for it before he voted against it."

And then idiots like you repeat it. This is why our political climate is like it is, because you and your ilk can't think for yourselves and just regurgitate what some website or candidate talking point says. Do us all a favor, and if you don't have anything to say that isn't just PR for one side or the other, just shut up.

Re:questions have been raised

[abe ferlman]

Oh he *implies* stuff... by speaking the truth. I see. He makes a bunch of true statements and leaves the viewer to draw conclusions based on... true evidence. What a tricky guy!

The best way to figure out whether or not Moore's truthful depictions "imply" stuff unfairly is to see it for yourself and decide whether or not those implications are warranted.

Re:questions have been raised

[Rei]

1) Implying that Fox....

If one news station calls an election, the others follow that call. Call them lemmings, but no news station wants to be the last to call an election. I was watching CNN at the time, and was watching the florida count numbers coming in, was aware that it was incredibly obvious that Gore could still carry the state (and not even that difficult), and then had my jaw drop when I heard them say something to the effect of... "wait, we're getting the news that Florida has been called for Bush..."

2) Implying that a member of the Bush admin hired a company to turn away African American voters at the polls.

Please, then - offer your explanation of why the "Felon Purge List" had over 20,000 African Americans, but less than 50 hispanics (I assume you're talking about Database Technologies and the purge list).

3) Implying that Gore won the election no matter what.

In the method that the State supreme court had ordered, Gore indeed would have won, based on a University of Chicago study. The only case Bush would have won was the one Gore requested, or no recount - but that was not what the State supreme court ordered.

4a) Implying that Bush vacationed 42 percent of the time in his first six months

That is completely true.

4b) With the implication that Bush can't do work away from the White House.

Of course he *can* do work. And I'm sure he's so much more effective without all those "relevant people" around him. Crawford, Texas, is so much more accessable for meetings than DC. I'm sure all of the brush-cutting photos, horseback riding, and talk about having fun was just a media ploy. (/sarcasm)

One thing that sickened me, later, and unrelated to Moore, was watching Bush talk about killing in Iraq (shortly before the war began), while smiling and playing golf - actually answering a reporter's question in the middle of a swing. How sick...

5) Implying that Bush didn't read the briefing ...

A) Tenet couldn't have given oral testimony about the PDB, as was implied, because A) Tenet was not in Texas that day, and B) Tenet testified that he did not speak to Bush during all of August: http://slate.msn.com/id/2098861/

B) Neither did Condi: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A111 15-2004Apr14.html

C) And, based on a white house press briefing, it appears that Bush didn't read it himself:

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2004/04/ 20 040410-6.html

Watch the administration official dance around the question as to whether Bush ever read it, it's quite amusing.

6) Implying that there were no flights allowed in the air when the saudis left the country

Here's a couple examples:

http://www.sptimes.com/2004/06/09/Tampabay/TIA_n ow _verifies_flig.shtml
http://www.iht.com/articles/ 531487.html

7) Implying that the Bin Ladens weren't at all questioned before leaving the air.

Please, back up that they were.

Re:questions have been raised

[moonsammy]

Ok, I won't "condemn or criticize anyone else" - but I'm certainly going to condemn and criticize a group. Bush himself *might* not be a bad guy, but his administration as a whole is horrific. Let's look at the score:
- Unjustified war in Iraq. No WMDs found, no tangible link between Saddam and Al Queda. Was Saddam a tyrant that deserved to be overthrown? Yes. But the United States had no legitimate excuse to do so. We *ARE NOT* the world's police. We have better things to do in our own country with the hundreds of billions of dollars and thousands of lives this war has cost us. War should always, always, *always* be the last option, and only when it is absolutely necessary. I think a certain religious figure the administration claims to believe in would agree.
- Extremely shady corporate connections. "Kenny Boy" Lay and Enron. Halliburton, run by Cheney at the time, found guilty of illegal accounting practices. No-bid contracts.
- Voting machines. Do I really need to say any more? You read slashdot, right? I just can't in good faith believe that these things would have been pushed as hard if the guys who run the companies didn't favor the incumbent.
- Environmental policy. I'm not going to get started on this really, it would take too long. Go ahead and google for "Bush administration environment" if you need convincing that they are *really* frickin' bad on this issue.
- Inequal rights. I don't care where you stand on the issue, but do you really agree that a constitutional amendment is the best way to "preserve the sanctity of marriage?" Why is this a federal government issue in the first place? Isn't marriage a (mainly) religious practice that the government only cares about in terms of taxing? I personally think any two people who are actually going to stay with each other in the long run should be legally allowed to make that commitment, but I can see why some would disagree. But a constitutional amendment is very much the wrong answer to this social disagreement. Why not just have churches that don't like gay marriage not recognize such unions? The catholic church doesn't recognize my marriage (as I wasn't married by a priest), and they're welcome not to - but it is not the government's place to make moral judgements.
- Dismantling of "inalienable" rights. Why does the government need to be able to review my library records? Is there anything in public libraries I'm not supposed to be reading? Have any terrorists really been caught by spying on the entire populace, ever? Why the hell are people being held in prisons without due process? Are they so dangerous that due process would harm the country?

Ok, so what are the administration's strengths? Really? I can't think of any. Defense? Granted, they're probably more militaristic than a democratic administration would be, but I have yet to be convinced this has helped make us safer. If anything, the Iraq war has lead to a greater percentage of the world hating the US, which just can't be a good thing in the long run.

Fahrenheit 9/11 might not be 100% factually accurate. It might be misleading in some parts. But have you seen it? The movie is a stunning indictment of the general wrong-headedness of the current administration, and even if 50% of it was bunk, it would still piss me off that our leaders are getting away with as much as they are.

In short, I don't like John Kerry, but he's the best bet to get this completely unpalatable administration out. And that's why I'm going to vote for him, and encourage to the best of my ability everyone I know to do likewise.

To tie this all back to the parent post - I'm not projecting self-hatred onto others when I say I hate the Bush administration. I like myself, and honestly believe I'm a good person. I have my faults, but I recognize them and try to either make up for them or work to make them go away. But I hate this administration, and wish nothing but bad things to happen to those involved it it (mmm... life-long prison sentences...). I'm not going to stand up for the administration for the sake of giving myself objectivity - I'm going to stand by my principles and do what I can to get them out of office.

Re:questions have been raised

[JWhitlock]

Now, my friend, he doesn't mind those 100 riders, so he votes on the initial bill. The bill doesn't get enough votes, gets sent back to committee.

...

So, when my friend is up for election, his staff pulls the voting records, and presto! My friend is "against affordable housing for working class families". Even better, he flip-flopped on the issue, because "he voted for it before he voted against it."

And then idiots like you repeat it. This is why our political climate is like it is

I'd say it's a good reason why governors have an easier time getting elected than legislators. Being in the executive branch at the state level lets you take clear stands, while someone at the state or national assembly has to become really good at compromise.

I don't think that people that call legislators "flip-floppers" are idiots. I just think it is a sad reflection on the political knowledge of the average citizen.

Of course, most who state that opinion on a public forum are idiots, or campaign workers...

Re:questions have been raised

[protohiro1]

You see, we can't stand bush or his administration not because we hate outselves. Its because we (I promise) strongly disagree with his policies. So much so that he just starts to piss us off.

I can speak for "the liberals" as a group, because we aren't all the same. Personally, I really believe that things like universal socialized health care and marriage rights for homosexuals are a good idea. Not because I am a self-loathing loser (but thanks for saying that, really raised the level of the discourse) but because I rationally read about this issues and I believe that these are good solutions. I don't support (and never did support) the war in iraq because I believe that it is an unecessary waste of human life and money. I believe that based on as many objective (and varied) sources I can get.

Some people say crazy stupid things. People of all political stripes. That doesn't mean you can paint millions of people with the same brush. The fact that going to Iraq was a foolish mistake, sold to the people with very deceptive rhetoric is something most people came to understand pretty reasonably. Not because people went "Unabomber wacko".

You seem to have trouble with this, so I'll repeat it: I disagree with Bush on basically everything. Because I rationaly looked at the evidence and came to a different conclusion. When various conservatives start basically making things up to argue their point--then I get real mad. When Mr. Bush talks about war, when he for whatever reason didn't want to go himself...that pisses me off. When people attack Kerry's war record I would love to sit down and say, that's wrong. But when it keeps coming and their candidate pulled favors to avoid serving in the same war. Well I start getting snippy. If another conservative post anonymously on the internet that I need to stop condeming and critizing other people and in the same post implies that people who agree with me are losers, then I get REAL pissed off.

Oh, and what's this crap about substance abuse? How many substance abusing liberals do you know? I know a lot of long sober people who really did overcome substance abuse problems that feel like I do about bush. I can't stand the guy and I hardly drink and I have never used illegal drugs. So step off, AC, ok?

Re:questions have been raised

[uberdave]

It is possible to make only true statements, and yet lead people to a false conclusion. It's called spin, or marketing, and it is done all the time.

Re:questions have been raised

[Colazar]

David Kopel on his website spent several paragraphs talking about how one could speak only "facts" and not convey the "truth." In Sematics we talk about the "Presumption of Relevance," which is that if you say something, it is presumed to have something to do with the conversation, or what you said before. The textbook example I remember was:

Q: Do you know what time it is?

A: That was the number 12 bus.

In this case, the questioner will usually assume that the fact that the number 12 bus went by can somehow tell him what time it is. (ie it goes by every half hour.) However, you can mislead someone, without "lying" by violating this presumption. Say you happen to know that the #12 bus was 15 minutes late, but don't mention that. Your "factual" response has led the questioner to think it is 15 minutes earlier than it actually is. The movie _Being There_ is a good example of humor that works by violating the Presumption of Relevance.

All of which is to say that, according to David Kopel, at least, (I have not seen F9/11), most of the problems in the movie are from violating this precept--putting two facts together in such a way that the only logical conclusion you can draw is an incorrect one. This is misleading. This is wrong. I decry it.

However, what really annoys me(as someone who opposed the War in Iraq) is that Bush did the *exact same thing* when he argued for going to war against Iraq. I honestly don't understand how someone can micro-analyze one side of the argument, but not the other.

Personally, I could have been convinced to go to war against Saddam Hussein. But not with the arguments that were made at the time, which didn't pass my sniff test then, and look even worse now.

Re:questions have been raised

[fingusernames]

What the Supreme Court ruled is, ahem, nuanced. Yet, clear.

To wit:

The Supreme Court of the State of Florida has the power to review the acts of the legislature of the state when those acts are an exercise of a power granted by the people of Florida via the Florida constitution.

However, the United States Constitution states "Each State shall appoint, in such Manner as the Legislature thereof may direct, a Number of Electors, equal to the whole Number of Senators and Representatives to which the State may be entitled in the Congress ..." The Supremes ruled that such power exercised via an explicit grant of authority in the United States Constitution is not reviewable by a state supreme court. Hence, the Florida Supreme Court had no power to intervene in determining the manner in which Florida assigns Electors: the authority was not grounded in the Florida constitution, but rather the United States constitution. That power is clearly granted solely to the Legislature, and given the source of the authority, it is directly reviewable by the United States Supreme Court.

The Supreme Court decision, while unquestionably controversial, was correct. This power of regulating federal elections was allocated solely to the elected state legislature, and is a federal, not state, matter when it comes to review.

Larry

Re:questions have been raised

[ppp]

The first TV announcement declaring Gore the winner in Florida was broadcast TEN MINUTES before the poles closed in the Florida panhandle region. If voter turnout actually was low there, I doubt that was the reason.

Re:questions have been raised

[Zeinfeld]

Speaking as a person who usually votes "left" Michael Moore has become known for this junk.. He alters text and then displays it like it was an original document. He edits together people's words.

Michael Moore is the Rush Limbaugh of the left, he is sloppy and his politics are often infantile - he was a Naderite in 2000, he helped elect Bush.

If you want good journalism then don't go to Rush Limbaugh, Commander Taco or Michael Moore, they all have their axes to grind. Don't go to Fox News, best still avoid the US "news" altogether, try the UK press, the Economist, Guardian, Times, BBC, Independent, Financial Times will all give a much better view of US politics than pretty much any US journalism.

Moore is simply giving the right a taste of what Fox News has done for years and to a far lesser degree.

Moore is not good journalism, he is not even particularly great as a propagandist, but he does not practice the absolutely deliberate distortions that Fox, Limbaugh, Swift Boat Veterans for Bush, etc. peddle.

Sure it would be good if US citizens actually learned to think for themselves. Since they refuse to people lime Limbaugh, Moore and Murdoch will do their thinking for them.

That is why Bush is at arround 50% in the polls instead of 15% which isw where you would expect a President whose economic plan is an utter failure, who has increased federal govt. spending more than either Carter or Clinton, who has lost millions of jobs, has stopped trying to catch Bin Laden and has instead started a $200 billion plus 1000 dead war of choice.

Bush is not a conservative, he is a complete incompetent.

Re:questions have been raised

[antic]

Well said. He is also doing spectacular work of making the people of the USA look like apathetic dimwits for electing him and putting up with it.

He is embarrassing your country on the world stage.

Re:questions have been raised

[neurojab]

>plus 1000 dead war

Correction: 1000 U.S. citizens have died. The number of Iraqi civillians is over 11,000 by LOW estimates. If you add in Iraqi soldiers, and you've got a total body count around 17,000, again, by low estimates.

Good!

[iamacat]

It will get people to vote either to oppose Bush or to oppose people who are influenced by the movie. Either way, democracy wins over apathy!

Re:Good!

[rlglende]

Democracy is an unstable form of government. That is why the US Constitution specified a republic, and why the move to and adulation of DEMOCRACY has been a bad idea.

The manipulation of the mob is always easy, and modern media and concentrated media ownership has mad it even easier. Now, even a boob like Bush can succeed.

The US Constitution also tried to limit government power to prevent a boob like Bush from doing great damage. Too bad we ignore those parts of the Constitution, also.

Lew

Voters don't think

[fred3666]

This election hasn't been about issues anyway. It's about Bush during 9/11 or Kerry during Vietnam.

Re:Voters don't think

[Nos.]

As a Canadian, I find American politics to be... disturbing. It seems most of the media is about politicians attacking each other rather than promoting themselves. Growing up in Canada I don't remember seeing this here, but lately its started to become the same thing here. Rather that promote their plans for the future, they basically take the stance of, well at least we're not doing what the other party is.
I'd rather see politicians telling us what there plan is rather than spending their air time making suggestions about who inhaled while they were in college.

Re:Voters don't think

[uradu]

If the GOP can have Fox News, we can have F9/11. Not exactly fair or balanced, but hey!

Re:Voters don't think

[demachina]

"by influencing the vote with last-minute emotions rather than thoroughly contemplation."

God forbid that should happen...

Dick Cheney yesterday saying if you vote the wrong way there will be another 9/11 attack (translation a vote for Kerry is a vote for Al Qaeda)

Swift Boat Vet ads.

Zel Miller at the RNC. In fact the whole RNC which was designed to stoke peoples fear of terrorism and that their grandchildren would be in danger if Kerry would be elected.

In 2000 the Bush campaign smearing John McCain in South Carolina with charges he fathered a black baby.

The Bush campaign deserves everything they get on the propaganda front because they dish it out non stop. Its just leveling the playing field for Michael Moore and MoveOn.org to give it back to them in kind. If it weren't for them the Kerry campaign would be dueling without a pistol.

Re:Voters don't think

[TGK]

Let me just be frank up front. I'm a Liberal (note the caps on the L). I believe in universal health care, clean air, clear water, a safe and reasonable working environment, all that other good liberal stuff that we take for granted.

I also think G.W. Bush is about the worst thing to happen to this country since Jefferson Davis.

At the same time, I recognize Moore's film as what it is. It's not propaganda, but it's not exactly objective.

First and foremost, it's important to realize that propaganda isn't just one film, one tv program, or one leaflet. Propaganda refers to a blanket of misinformation that is produced and distributed in such a way as to obscure truth and to impose a particular viewpoint as the only viewpoint.

If you want to get technical, Fox News is the closest to Propaganda this country has come in the last 50 years. Fox is as close to a ubiquitous news source as we have in this country and it's view point is very clear. Nonetheless, Fox pitches itself as being "fair and balanced," something it is patently not. Deceptions like this are what constitute propaganda.

In contrast, Moore's film (even ignoring the fact that you can't create media saturation with two hours of footage) is very clear on its objectives and viewpoints. Moore himself is even more vocal, and has made no bones about the liberal bias in his film.

Nonetheless, factual inaccuracies are something he, as a professional documentary maker, has avoided at all costs.

It is worth noting, however, that Moore leads his audience to some conclusions which are not accurate. He never states anything untrue or inaccurate, but he does not prevent his audience from making assumptions.

Example: We hear a great deal about how the Bin Laden family was evacuated in the days following September 11. We know they weren't interviewed by the FBI (this is true). We know planes around the country were grounded (this is also true). We know the Bin Laden family was in the air and on its way out of the country while a lot of other planes were on the ground (also true). We are lead to assume (but never actually told) that the Bin Laden family was flying as a special exception to the faa's ban on air travel. This is not the case, and while Moore never states it, he leads you to the conclusion.

Documentaries are not always without an agenda. Personally, if the GOP wants to push to have Moore's film counted against the advertising budget of the DNC and Kerry I'm all for it. I'd expect the Kerry campaign to have a similar lawsuit pinning the entire operating budget of Fox News (and indeed the Rupert Murdoch media empire) on the RNC in short order though.

Bottom line: quit your bitching. F911 isn't propaganda. Before it can be labeled as such we need to figure out where Rush, Sean Hannity, and O'Riley fit into the definition.

Re:Voters don't think

[revscat]

I largely find myself agreeing with your post, but I did want to address the following:

We are lead to assume (but never actually told) that the Bin Laden family was flying as a special exception to the faa's ban on air travel. This is not the case, and while Moore never states it, he leads you to the conclusion.

Why do you think there was no special exception? The flights out of the country to Saudi Arabia happened during the time that all other flights were grounded. Many -- but not all -- were members of the bin Laden family. Take this in conjunction with recent revelaations that actively sought to suppress an investigation:

And in Graham's book, Intelligence Matters, obtained by The Herald Saturday, he makes clear that some details of that financial support from Saudi Arabia were in the 27 pages of the congressional inquiry's final report that were blocked from release by the administration, despite the pleas of leaders of both parties on the House and Senate intelligence committees.

All evidence points to Bush giving Saudis special treatment at a time when they should have received no such treatment.

Re:Voters don't think

[hey]

Nearly all Canadians think Bush is an moron and bad for the USA/world and we don't understand why our American neighbo[u]rs don't see this too. Normally we are very good at understanding the behavour of Americans. In fact we're usually better than Americans at this. Way better than the Brits. I think its like when your sister is dating some guy who is a bit mean or rude and you wish she'd drop him since she can do better. Talking to her won't help -- you know that. You just hope she grows out of him. Good luck, sister.

Re:Voters don't think

[bckrispi]

If the GOP can have Fox News, we can have F9/11. Not exactly fair or balanced, but hey!

Perhaps you should clarify "we". From a moderate viewpoint, the "bleeding-heart, Bush-is-a-terrorist, Michael Moore crowd" is just as ludicrous and uninformed as the "bible-thumping, big-business, tax-breaks-for-the-rich" side of the GOP. I am not a supporter of W. But I don't need to put out a propaganda film that would make Joseph Goebbles blush to prove my point. MM does *nothing* for informing the American public by putting out his drivel. He's only playing to his own crowd of "loonie-lefties". As a moderate who does not want four more years W, I find F9/11 to be insulting and counter-productive. Anyone with half a critical mind will dismiss it (like Fox news) for what it is: distorted partisan crap.

You want factual ammo against W? How about this:

• The defecit he's created is the largest in history. This coming off a four-year surplus under Clinton.
• Support the War in Iraq or not, we went there under bad intellegence (WMD, Al-Quaida link). That means that either a) Our intel agencies are horridly inept and incompetent, or b)We were lied to. Both of these warrant a new president, either through elections or impeachment.
• W promised 5 million new jobs. To paraphrase John Kerry, "he's about 6 million short". My mother-in-law, who has 10 years experience as a network admin was forced to take a job paying $10 an hour once her unemployment benefits ran out.
• Millions of good-paying, highly skilled jobs are going overseas. W's response: "The economy's getting stronger".
• Wages for American workers have been flat for the past year, while worker productivity has skyrocketed. Avarage fortune 500 CEO compensation has increased 20% in the past 12 months!!
• I am fortunate enough to be one of the minority who has decent medical coverage. However, in the four years since W. took office my out of pocket medical expenses have increased 250%
• Halliburton, Enron: Did Bush/Cheney do anything unethical or illegal in thier recent dealings with these companies? We need an independant counsel to investigate this. Call it a witch-hunt if you will, but if either of these two made a personal profit off of the war or by bilking American workers out of their life savings, they need to be prosecuted.

"Am I better off now than four years ago?" Hell no!!! I feel like I've been given the job in this administration that Monica Lewinsky had in the last one. It's amazing: we'll impeach a president over lying about a blowjob, but let the lies, deceit and broken promises of this current adminstration go unpunished. Those of us who are against W don't need a shitslinger like MM, we need someone who is capable of tearing him down with facts not propaganda.

Re:Voters don't think

[Fascist Christ]

It's all about the advertising. We are not voters. We are consumers. It's like Coke vs Pepsi, but all other cola is kept in the back.

Re:Voters don't think

[zCyl]

I'll be frank up front too. I'm an Independant

I'm also an independent, and I support most of the same things that you do. However, your analysis of Fox News is missing most of the details.

I'd really like to know why you believe that channel has a Republican agenda.

The news editor of Fox news is a hardcore republican, who sends all of his newscasters a daily list of issues they are required to talk about, and sends them what viewpoint they should present about these issues. His news reporters then either present his viewpoint or stop becoming his news reporters.

How does a fair and balanced news organization support a controversial war 100%? Shouldn't a news organization instead cover a war, debate its reasoning and necessity, and interview the politicians who support and disagree with the war?

Bill O'Reilly ... like him because he walks both sides of the fence by making logical decisions ... Good show, people should watch it, even if they don't like it. You'll change your opinion of the show after a month or two, I guarantee it.

Watched it for over a year, it's one of the worst shows on news. You must be thinking of a different Bill O'Reilly than the one on Fox News. He shouts down his guests, refuses to let them speak (in particular when they disagree with them), turns off their mics when he disagrees with them, and thinks with one of the most emotionally based irrational minds possible.

When was the last time you saw Larry King yell at a guest, turn off a guest's microphone, or kick a guest off the show?

Hannity & Colmes - Hannity is openly a Republican, Colmes is openly a Democrat

Hannity is a talented and skilled speaker. Colmes is the most sniveling tiny-tiny human they could get to possibly host a news show. It would be wonderful if the two were matched and they had equal ability to present their viewpoints. Hannity is given the vast majority of microphone time, Colmes occasionally gets to express a minority opinion in a poor fashion.

And two shows that actually specifically cover political issues. One is Bill O, and the other is H & C.

Yes, precisely. Greta Van Susteren is probably one of the better reporters on Fox News, but she is usually never given political assignments.

Dumb The Vote

[Foofoobar]

Considering how many average Americans vote out of raw emotion anyway, expecting them to intelligently dissect the issues is a little beyond their ability. Most of them can't even program the VCR.

And considering the fact that the winner will get to pick 3 supreme court justices (hence setting the tone for laws in our country for the next 20 years), it's no wonder this has degraded into a schoolyard brawl.

Moore

[pHatidic]

People keep saying Moore's movie isn't a documentary because it's full of bias. This is a load of crap, all documentaries have bias. Everything ever written for that matter has bias. If F/911 can be said to be not a documentary it is because he doesn't actually really document anything. It's just him talking over CNN and fox news footage for two hours. That is the thing that pissed me off about this movie, that in the previous ones he and his film crew are taking all the footage, but in this movie its just him narrating his opinions on top of stock footage. It cheapens his message (which I agree with) and lowers the quality of the experience overall.

FCC should allow it

[WaRtHaWg]

After all, the Swifties/Bush/Cheney have a 24 x 7 ad running. It's called Fox News.

Re:FCC should allow it

[cjf242]

Yes and Kerry has is 24x7 ad running. It's called CNN.. And before you say no. Two CNN commentators just joind the Kerry campaign, and they are still doing there shows on CNN

Re:FCC should allow it

[ImaLamer]

Two CNN commentators just joind the Kerry campaign, and they are still doing there shows on CNN

But... do they cover Kerry? Fox's man covering Bush in 2000 had family (his wife) in the Bush campaign. How could he be objective?

In 2000 a CNN anchor started to work for Gore and they removed him from all Gore stories because of the appearance of impropriety.

Read the script of Outfoxed, see page 73 I believe.

Fair and Balanced

[ColdWetDog]

"one has to wonder whether airing such a controvercial movie on the eve of an election helps or hurts the political process by influencing the vote with last-minute emotions rather than thoroughly contemplation."

As opposed to all of the partisan commercials, and of course, the Fair and Balanced(TM)(C)(Patent Pending) "news".

Nice Sentence ending

[scotay]

airing such a controvercial movie on the eve of an election helps or hurts the political process by influencing the vote with last-minute emotions rather than thoroughly contemplation.

Since when have the American electorate ever shown thoughtful contemplation? We sell our presidents like soda. The electorate consistently rewards mud slinging (or fails to vote against it) and runs on emotion rather than reason. That's why we get the government we deserve. McCain-Feingold will never change this fact. Until people stop voting for the 2-party duopoly and stop rewarding the lies, this mess will continue.

helps or hurts?

[Anonymous Coward]

even if we assume it to be pure propaganda, would you say that a partisan filmmaker saying the president is wrong hurts more or less then the Vice President of the United States saying that if voters make the "wrong" choice in November, the terrorist boogyman is literally going to kill them?

Mccain-feingold

[dfenstrate]

one has to wonder whether airing such a controvercial movie on the eve of an election helps or hurts the political process by influencing the vote with last-minute emotions rather than thoroughly contemplation.

Not to mention it may very well be prohibited under the mccain-feingold act, a trashy unconstitutional piece of legislation if there ever was one.

Funny how the supreme court finds it more important to protect simulated child pornography (unimportant) and is okay with silencing political speech (the most important type!).

If someone ever finds the supreme court's balls, please return them to washington. They're desperately needed.

Re:Hell yeah

[Max Threshold]

There aren't really that many Bush supporters. Do you know any? I've met about three. The official polls simply reflect how many votes Diebold is planning to give him.

I eventually came to a decision

[palad1]

After scrutinizing thoroughly both candidates' proposition, my mind is set.

It was nor quick nor easy, but I'm really confident about my vote now.

GO NIXON!!!

My question:

[cliffa3]

Will it air on Disney?

Moore's video has really influenced me

[Jonny Ringo]

Its a tough call. But after watching his movie I'm still on the fence. I'm either going with Ralph Nader, or Michael Badnarik. I know what all you are saying. Voting for Badnarik takes votes away from Nader and lessens his chances of being in future debates. Well I'm sick of this tired old argument. So all of you naysayers, I don't want to hear it! You have to vote with your heart.

Re:Hell yeah

[Pharmboy]

Unemployment is currently at the same level that Clinton ran on in the 1996 election, 5.4%.

Presidents don't make jobs. In the best case, they can get the hell out of the way of the companies that do make jobs. I hate it that your friends don't have jobs, but perhaps you need to look elsewhere for answers. As for me, I just sold a business because I could not get quality employees. It became too big a hassle. Then again, in my 40 years, I have never been more than two weeks without a job, and never accepted unemployment checks, choosing a lower job until I could work my way back up instead. I guess its just a matter of choice.

Who is President simply does not affect jobs the way so many state, but I guess it does make some feel better if they have someone to blame for what is likely just bad luck.

Re:Not Fox

[WindBourne]

Actually, I could see Fox doing it. They go for money. By running the movie, they would control all the ads that are displayed and they could come on with commentary about the movie. IOW, turn it from semi-documentary to a true mocumentary.

It should also be noted...

[l4m3z0r]

That Moore will instead be seeking the best picture nomination. Doubtful it will win but would be extremely interesting to see a documentary win best picture. Considering the competition I don't think it would be completely impossible either.

Its obvious to me at least that he will have to edit out portions of the film in order to be aired on TV. I fully expect it to showed on AMC(american movie channel). I wouldn't be surprised if many stations picked it up. Its sure to draw a large group of viewers. Whether or not any advertisers will buy time slots during it is another question all together.

Lastly I'd like to add that while some call it emotive and propaganda and claim it would be detrimental to our political process I'm going to have to dissagree. While the film is over the top and largely misleading it is still the only thing out there that questions effectively our presidents leadership. Which NEEDS to be called into question in order for democracy to work. War time or not, leaders need to be questioned. Even if there is no basis or ground for questioning them. They need to explain themselves adequately and constantly otherwise we have no accountability.

Re:Bush got his share too...

[Anonymous Coward]

Using anothers fault and deception as a defense against your own is not the way to win a debate.

He lied about X
ohh yeah, well you lied about Y.

It does not change the facts X

BTW I despise both Bush and Moore. Both are propganda machines they prey on peoples willingness to believe distortions of the truth.

Propaganda

[Sheepdot]

questions have been raised as to whether Moore's movie presents truth or propaganda

People are still questioning it?

Moore hopes to air the film prior to the November elections

There's your answer right there.

Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed the movie, but there was a clear opinion expressed. F911 is material disseminated by an opponent to a poltical agenda, thus "propaganda" by definition.

It is entirely possible for something to be both truthful and propaganda. In fact, I'd venture to guess that most politically-biased material is truthfull. At least, efficient propganda is.

The only thing I took issue with was claims about the family ties between Bush and bin Laden. They are actually very weak ties and arguments. Specifically the one with the Carlyle Group. For more information on this, I would suggest checking out the following K5 Diary entry: http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2004/8/2/121046/0201

Re:Liberal media is teh suck

[BAM0027]

So, what you're saying is that the media hasn't given enough support to this war effort? I find it very confusing to hear that the nation's media has been too liberal when the bottom line is that we are, and have been, supporting the president by virtue of the fact that we're still in Iraq.

I see the media presenting faux pas by both Kerry and Bush, though there seem to be more opportunities to needle Bush. Why's that? Is the media really leaving out Kerry's flubbs? Or is Bush really less articulate, less informed, and less balanced?

The only this that I can give Bush credit for is his leadership quality. I don't agree with his choices at all, but if he did make decisions that I agreed with, I'd be very confident that he would be able to make things happen.

Too bad he's a sexist, homophobic warmonger.

Re:Wait, slightly confused...

[bios10h]

From oscars.org:

No television or internet transmission shall occur at any time prior to, or within the nine months following, the first day of the qualifying exhibition, and not before completing the minimum four-city two-day theatrical runs. Any documentary which is transmitted anywhere in the world in any version as a television or internet program within this period will automatically be disqualified from award eligibility.

http://www.oscars.org/77academyawards/rules/rule12 .html

Re:You have to WONDER?

[Microlith]

Short circuiting the democratic process would be more akin to abusing those electronic voting machines.

This is broadcasting a political message in an attempt to influence voters. This is -pure- politics, and purely a part of the free, democratic process we claim to hold so dear (yet see abused every time.)

"Liberal" media is a lie

[slusich]

I don't feel that having F911 air is any more inappropriate then allowing all of the talk radio people continually talk about what a great man Bush is. It's all a matter of free speech, which should be protected. That being said, I have serious doubts that the film will ever be shown on a major network. The "Liberal Media" tag has been thrown around for far too long by people who are so far to the right they no longer understand where the center may be. The truth is that most of the media is controlled by large corporations who stand to gain nothing by allowing someone in office who might restrict them from growing their monopolies. For the last 4 years, the media has given Bush a free ride. No serious investigations have been done into his past, despite allegations of conduct much worse then anything Clinton was ever accused of. Bush has been allowed to change his position over and over again and still point the finger at Kerry for being indecisive. The total time spent airing the RNC vs. the DNC should show whose side the media really is on.

Re:"Liberal" media is a lie

[haggar]

For the last 4 years, the media has given Bush a free ride.

Is this even true? Looking from Europe, I see that all the media are pro-democrat, except FOX. All the shows have Bush, Cheney and the rest constantly on the floor: Conan O'Bryen, Jay Leno, MSNBC.

FOX seems to attract a lot of indignation, but I question whether it's because it's so biased, or because it's the only one biased in a different direction. In other words: is it possible that hard-core democrats can't stand one single voice of opposition? It looked so, seeing some of the protests during the republican convention.

I am aware that my view is very unusual for a European, but I am a European who came from an ex-communics country, so I developed a refined smell for bullshit.

Presidents don't make jobs?

[TrentL]

Bush would disagree. He has run up hundreds of billions of dollars in debt (trillions in the long term) claiming his tax cuts would add jobs. Hasn't happened (they claimed we'd be adding 300,000 a month at this point. Um, no.)

The president also thought he could save jobs by using steel tariffs and lumber tariffs (this from a "free trade" president). Didn't work. Bush flip-flopped and dropped the steel tariffs after nearly setting off a trade war.

Re:Hell yeah

[funny-jack]

Hey, I guess you didn't get the memo, but this is politics.slashdot.org. We only post emotionally charged flames here, not well-reasoned arguments.

On the subject of propaganda...

[jdreed1024]

It's only propaganda if you let it be propaganda. In the age of the global internet, with hundreds of different news sources at your disposal (or accessible via your local public library), it's real hard to call something propaganda.

Flash back to World War II, for example. Consider the famous German propaganda broadcasters - they were on government-owned radio stations, broadcasting to the German people that England was about to surrender, and Hitler was marching through London. The average person had no way of knowing whether or not that was true. They couldn't go online to someone's blog showing the Allies storming the beaches at Normandy. They couldn't flip to FOX News showing German troops freezing in Russia. And they couldn't turn on AMC showing Steve McQueen jumping his motorcycle across the border. It was either accept what the government said, or die.

Nowadays, however, you can find hundreds of sites devoted to debunking Michael Moore. You can go look up the Congressional Record and see if all those people in F9/11 really did object to certifying the election results and if it was really true that no member of the Senate would sign their objections (it was). You can search newspapers and see old video clips and see if Moore really did edit Charlton Heston's speech in Bowling for Columbine (he did). You can see if the family Moore interviewed really did lose a son in Iraq (they did).

The days of newsreels in the movie theater are long gone. If you go to any movie and take what is says as fact (Be it Fahrenheit 9/11, I Robot, the Passion of the Christ, or the Pokemon movie), you're an idiot. Moore has said many times that he wants his movies to raise questions, not indoctrinate people. That's why I go to see them - to have my values and viewpoints challenged. But you can't suddenly base your entire life on them, any more than you should change your values based on someone coming up to you on the street and saying that your political party sucks.

I'm not a huge fan of Moore outside his movies - I think a lot of his speeches are grandstanding, and I thought he was kind of a jerk at the Oscars, but that doesn't mean he can't make movies that make you think. I mean, David Lynch makes good movies, but man I wouldn't want to spend 5 minutes along with him.

Re:On the subject of propaganda...

[StrawberryFrog]

It's only propaganda if you let it be propaganda. In the age of the global internet, with hundreds of different news sources at your disposal ... They couldn't flip to FOX News

Yes, but the percentage of Americans who let thier information on current events begin and end at fox "news" is what? Far too high anyway.

You say it's not Propaganda, millions of couch potatoes to lazy to change the channel or read something say "let it be". I say "you'll get the government you deserve, you cretins". Unfortunately, I'll get it too, even though I live in England.

Slashdot has JUMPED THE SHARK!!!

[linuxrunner]

And now for the slow paintfull demise of Slashdot.

Let's get irrelavant and uniformed people to bitch about politics on a site that should be about technology and geekhood.

Yup, so let's see... there's a bunch of Germans and Swedish people bitching about a President they can not elect nor vote against.

This is just going to be useless bickering...

"The movie is full of lies!" vs. "The movie is SO true!"

Does the movie have lies... YES. Does it also have some truth.. YES. Until you yourself can admit this, you're not going to get anywhere or ever be better informed.

------------------

Oh, but that won't be it.... We'll have moderators split with their party ideals and mod up what they like and mod down what they don't. So intelligent posts will get modded down just because. And it won't matter what political party the poster belongs to, it will just happen.

------------------

In the end this whole "politics" section is silly... Let it die like the "radio" http://radio.slashdot.org/ section.

Re:Slashdot has JUMPED THE SHARK!!!

[Edax Rarem]

Let's get irrelavant and uniformed people to bitch about politics on a site that should be about technology and geekhood.

I think you took a wrong turn... this is: http://politics.slashdot.org

I disagree that this section is silly... it keeps all the politics OFF the Tech site.(hopefully)

So, please, stay on topic.

Re:Faren-hype 9/11

[mattkime]

I've said it a few times now but...

sure, you're right. The Bush family doesn't have ties with the House of Saud nor are billions of dollars being poured into the pockets of the VP's former company.

also, Bush is really from texas...

Because Right wing people don't lie

[Anonymous Coward]

And Ann Coulter's book where she accuses everyone who was ever a democrat of Treason?

Or any other similar book?

How about the Swift Boat veterans, at least one of whom recived his bronze star for the same combat action that never happened that Kerry was awarded for. Or the one who stood next to Kerry eight years ago and praised his valor under fire during that same combat action that never happened?

How about those republicans who claim that the Clintons "may have" had up to seventy people murdered?

How about the 70 million dollar investigation of a sub-million dollar land deal where everyone lost money, and blow jobs? Compared to the indescretions of the company Cheney headed with many millions in mistated earnings, the subsequent defrauding of the government in no-bid contracts, and energy industry meetings the American people aren't allowed to know the substance of for no reason beyond "I would prefer not to."

Is Moore a paragon of unassailable objective truth? Hell no. But he's a lot better than those of opposing idiology. He's simply misleading. On the other side of the aisle, they're out and out making shit up with no basis in fact. That's the fucking crime in all this. And the republicans brought it on themselves. Just wait, since it looks like Bush is going to win. Why on Earth would the Democrats NOT adopt the exact same tactics as the republicans next time around?

I *LIKE* nasty, dirty flaming campaigns

[Tri0de]

Thhe fact that this is a underhanded flamefest is a Good Thing, IMO.
If Kerry thinks the leaders of other countries are going to be any nicer than thhe WORST that Rove and the swifties can throw at him he's nuts. Welcome to the big leagues, John.
But then I'm a Libertarian and so I KNOW my party is going to lose, so let 'em rogh each other up. There really is no hope until we shitcan the two party system and Greens, Libertarians and everyone else can have an actual reason to VOTE for someone they give a crap about.

Or maybe, just MAYBE, the facts stand against Bush

[revscat]

Or maybe more people than you realize that Bush is a bad president. Maybe it has nothing to do with "bias" and everything to do with "intelligence" and "critical thought." Just maybe, just maybe, many people have very good, substantial reasons for disliking Bush, and labelling it "bias" is just a cheap way for some to avoid having to face that reality.

Michael Moore

[Reality Master 101]

I can't prove this, but I highly suspect that Michael Moore has gained Bush more votes than he has cost him.

People generally hate obviously unfair propaganda. Michael Moore has done more damage to the left than anything the GOP could have done.

What I always find interesting about the left is how they sabatage themselves. Look at all the ridiculous things they say about Bush... comparing him to Hitler, saying that he's out to kill as many people as possible, that he wants to poison everyone, on and on. I remember exactly the same thing happening with Reagan. The things they were saying about him were insane. (Literally, saying things like, "He WANTS a nuclear war!!").

The left seems to do this far more than the right. The naive left starts believing all this weird crap and alienates the middle. Of course, the GOP has the religious right spouting weird nonsense, but not nearly to the degree that the left does.

Re:Faren-hype 9/11

[EnderWiggnz]

but if you make a statement, like - oh - saddam hussein is in cahoots with al qaeada, or that there are WMD that are about to be used on the US, and they turn out to be... well... *false*... then it is a lie.

Hurting the process?

[fw3]

By the exercise of first ammendment rights?

I think not. Yes Moore is bombastic, biased etc. His *facts* seem to be pretty well done, however he's certainly chosen to lay them out to best make the point he's trying to make. This is something that the 'free press' in our nation does all the time. usually when cornered they even admit it.

It's also as likely to bolster Bush's supporters with the degree of venom that Moore brings to his subject and protrayal.

Does any of that matter a lot to me? No, Once I saw GWB in his Tux say:

Here I am with the 'haves' [dramatic pause] and the 'have mores'. Some call you the elite [dramatic pause] I call you 'My Base'

...

Coupled with this arrogant bastard's repeated ability to ignore his military's and CIA's and other nation's intelligence reports in favor of his own fscking agenda (basically "we need to eliminate SH from Iraq to stabilize the region") The decision that this moron needs to go was firmly cemented.

And as far as even-handed, I'll take even Moore's work over the 'swift boat veterans for truth(sic)' group, many of whom had nothing bad to say about Kerry, and some of whom earned medals in the same engagement that they now accuse him of lying about.

So Moore 'hurting the process' vs a group that has gotten advice from a (now resigned) administration (US-tax-paid-for) attorney ??!

No comparison. One is clearly using presentation to make a point, the other has clearly broken the rules in recieving material support from actual administration employees and is full of people who can't make up their minds whether they liked Kerry or didn't depending on what office he was running for at the time.

Re:Hurting the process?

[tigeba]

Here I am with the 'haves' [dramatic pause] and the 'have mores'. Some call you the elite [dramatic pause] I call you 'My Base'

This is a perfect example of the benefit of doing a little simple research and thinking, instead of absorbing information served to you. Based on watching the film, you were probably under the impression that Bush delivered this line at some sort of secret fund raising dinner, rallying the his vast right-wing army. In fact, this occured at the Al Smith dinner, which is a charity dinner that traditionally hosts presidental candidates, and of course the candidates are encouraged to make self depricating remarks. You would probably be surprised to know that the other guest of honor that evening was Al Gore, who I believe re-stated his claim that he invented the internet (as well as virtually every invention of the 20th century) as well as some other gems about keeping various types of produce safe in his fridge.

You can find a brief blurb here:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2000/10/18/politi cs /main242210.shtml

Feel free to draw your own conclusions about who is telling the "truth". And remember all facts are always true :)

Re:I know why

[mrsev]

As I come form the eastern side of the Atlantic Ocean (Europe) I find it difficult to understand what the fuss is about. The headline says"...whether Moore's movie presents truth or propaganda, one has to wonder whether airing such a controvercial movie on the eve of an election helps or hurts the political process by influencing the vote."

The show 9/11 clearly states a point of view(In this case from Moore), dont like it make your own film. And so what , you have the freedom of speech and he has the right to use it. As regards the idea of truth. Are we to assume that all other shows, that night, depict the "truth".

Maybe because I come from a country where political debate is common and the people represented by a spectrum of views, I find this kind of pro/anti arguments a little strange.

The communist party says one thing (and most people laugh) the center-left says another, the center-right another. Nobody would expect a film to depict the Truth(Tm). Only with actual news programs are facts expected to be proved(editorial and comments are not).

I always get the impression form the US that they consider themselves to be the world experts on Democracy. To be quite honest I see little to be impressed about.

Why the Slashdot front page?

[mattmcarroll]

This is an article that should have been posted *only* to the newly-created Politics section of Slashdot.

Happened In Sweden

[pt99par]

A documentary with similar characteristics was aired in sweden just before election. It was indirectly attacking the conservative party by showing local leaders of the party beeing provoced to say rasistic stuff.. It affected the actual result of the voting if you look at statistics prior to the airing of the documentary.. I would rather have the US voting carrey for president but it would be unfair to show souch propaganda before the election. Even if there is an escence of trouth in the documentary it is presented in souch a way that it makes bush look like he is worse than hitler. Way cant jounalist make documentaries without presenting them like a propaganda from the cold war...

Re:You have to WONDER?

[WebTurtle]

In what way is this movie's creation and/or television broadcast akin to "short-circuiting the democratic process"??!!

• Creating or broadcasting a movie is not the same thing as when the Supreme Court decides who gets to be the next president as they did in 2000.
• A movie such as F-9/11 is an act of speech and as such is contributing to the democratic process of debate, something Americans don't engage in critically enough.
• If this movie engenders any response in viewers that leads them to the voting booth (no matter which candidate they choose) then this movie is strengthening the democratic process, which has been weak and in decline for decades.
• This movie cannot be considered "overt political manipulation" until the movie reaches out and starts bribing people or otherwise coercing them to behave a certain way. However, it certainly does try to influence people's opinions about what has been going on for the last four years, just like any other newspaper or magazine editorial.

This movie is not propaganda:

To denigrate this as propaganda is either naive or perverse, forgetting (deliberately?) what the last century taught us. Propaganda requires a permanent network of communication so that it can systematically stifle reflection with emotive or utopian slogans. Its pace is usually fast. Propaganda invariably serves the long-term interests of some elite.
This single maverick movie is often reflectively slow and is not afraid of silence. It appeals to people to think for themselves and make connections. And it identifies with, and pleads for, those who are normally unlistened to. Making a strong case is not the same thing as saturating with propaganda. Fox TV does the latter; Michael Moore the former.

(The beginning of history, by John Berger, The Guardian, August 24, 2004.)

Re:bite me asshat.

[Jett]

Are we in fact winning? I hadn't noticed what with 1000+ dead troops in Iraq and no links found to al-Qaeda and no WMDs and Osama bin Laden still on the loose and hundreds of children being blown up in Chechnya and airplanes being blown up in Russia and the anthrax killer never found and the Taliban regaining power in parts of Afghanistan and bombings in Bali and Turkey and Moscow and Madrid and...

Michael Moore is a genius

[Schnapple]

Michael Moore is a genius and is good for America.

I'll explain.

He comes out with Fahrenheit 9/11. It's full of things. It's a very effective piece of propoganda. And there's almost nothing in it which is false or a lie.

It's been my experience that it's by and large intelligent people who go see his films. Think about it - it's the intelligent people who will give his work the time of day. It's been my experience that the people who say "he's a damn dirty liar and I won't support that" haven't done their research and are on the whole the ones who would rather not hear anything he has to say.

Consequently it's these same intelligent people who walk out of the theater saying "wow, that was pretty bad for Bush & Co. - but I bet it's only one side of the story". And it is.

Moore tells you about the VA Hospitals Bush closed down, but not about the ones he opened up.

Moore tells about the opinon piece that says Gore won, but he doesn't tell you about the dozen stories that say he lost.

Moore tells you about the judges Bush couldn't get appointed, but not about the ones he did.

People have made it their goal to point out the one-sided arguments in the film while others have pointed out the fallacies in those arguments against the film.

56% of Americans have either seen the film or plan to see the film. There's no way in hell that 56% of Americans are informed about politics. So they learn a lot from Fahrenheit 9/11. Then they learn a lot more from the people against F911. Then they learn even more from the people who are against the people who are against F911. And they decide for themselves who they want to believe more. Or more importantly they decide for themselves which information is important to them.

And then they're informed. In ways they never would have been before. I wouldn't know most of this stuff if I hadn't seen the film and then read all the debates. And I wouldn't have read the debates if it weren't for the Internet. Hell, Michael Moore used footage he got from the Internet to make the movie.

And that's why Michael Moore is a genius. Thanks to him there's a ton more informed voters out there, if for no other reason than people need to see the movie and get their ducks in order in order to hate Moore and his arguments. In many ways he's leveled the playing field.

Re:bite me asshat.

[macdaddy]

How about "F***'ed your Fellow Vietnam Vets", or "French owned."

Do you think it was wrong of Kerry to come home from Vietnam and tell Congress we should end the war? Ask the American people if anyone knows why we're in the war to begin with? Tell Congress of the atrocities and war crimes he witnessed. Don't play "Oh it never happened, We'd never do that" game with you. We all know god damned well that it did happen. Kerry didn't turn his back on his fellow soldiers. He turned his back on the administration that got them in that Fucked up Ware to begin with. He tried to get his fellow soldiers out of that hell hole before more lives were lost in vain. That one hell of a noble thing to do in my book. And you can bet that he did it knowing full well that piss ants like yourself would never let him forget it.

Re:questions have been answered

[Anonymous Coward]

Er, no. Goss set up the 877 number *after the movie was released*. Take a look at this house transcript from July (PDF, sorry) in which Goss states:

The Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence, which I am the chairman of, regularly conducts oversight, and it has proven to be effective and reliable. To that end I have frequently described the Intelligence Committee when I make public speeches, which I do frequently, as the metaphorical 1-800 number for anybody who has concerns about abuses under the PATRIOT Act or any intelligence-related activities. The number to the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence has been and continues to be publicly listed and available to anybody who wants to call from around the world. If you have experienced a specific problem with the PATRIOT Act, you can now call us at our toll-free number. It only costs the taxpayers. The number is 1-877-858-9040.

Note that he said that 1-800 was a metaphor he was using to describe the committee. Note that he says that a number *has been and continues to be* published to contact them, but doesn't specifically say which one it was. Note that he says that taxpayers can *now* call the 877 number.

This isn't about Goss saying 1-800 when he meant 1-877. When Goss made the 1-800 comment, and at the time Fahrenheit 911 was released, there was not a free number to call Goss' committee about the PATRIOT Act.

I dare you to find a reference to, or any published material indicating that 877 number was in place before June 25th, the day Fahrenheit 911 hit theaters. Moore would be lying if he said it today, but when the movie was released, it was factual both in semantics and in spirit.

Re:Michael Moore

[isaac]

People generally hate obviously unfair propaganda.

Right, which is why "Swift Boat Veterans for Truth" were so unsuccessful.

I believe you've got it completely backwards. People hate substantive discussion of issues. People hate nuance. Nuance and intelligent discussion = nerd. And people really hate nerds. Take Al Gore, please!

Pro wrestling has more fans than "Meet The Press" and image triumphs over substance every time. Unfair propaganda works.

-Isaac

holy crap! You complete debunked him!

[Anonymous Coward]

Whoah! That's some pretty damning evidence. Michael Moore took something printed in a newspaper and flashed it on the screen as if it had appeared elsewhere in a newspaper? Now I'm suspicious.

For instance, now I am wondering if Bush Sr. really is acting as a private consultant (through his employment in the Carlyle Group) to the Saudi government while still receiving weekly CIA briefings. Could it actually be possible that our CIA intelligence is being used to guide Saudi Arabia in how it conducts its affairs?

Re:bite me asshat.

[terrymr]

I'm not sure what your point is, how many were there before 9/11 ... there hasn't been enough time to tell if there's going to be more attacks.

That's because the first attacker wins

[roystgnr]

John Kerry voted for one version of an appropriations bill for Gulf War II, and voted against another. George W. Bush threatened to veto one version of the appropriations bill, and signed another. Because the Bush campaign was the first to figure out how to work half of these facts into a soundbyte, now Kerry is a "flip-flopper" in the public eye.

The success of negative campaigning isn't just the public's fault, either; it's partly because both candidates this time really do suck. I know that for a lot of voters the answers to "Do you want George W. Bush as your president?" and "Do you want John Kerry as your president?" are the same: no! IMHO the Bush campaign is doing a good job keeping the latter question in people's minds, and it's going to win him the election.

Re:bite me asshat.

[Anonymous Coward]

The War on Terror needs to be fought, maybe differently than it has been, but in terms of the US, things are going pretty well.

Either that, or the complete absence of terrorist strikes in the US since 9/11 indicates -- not that we are fighting "terror" and winning -- but that there is no terrorist threat to the United States of America.

The "war on terror" is a con being used to justify military spending and to restrict our rights. It is precisely the sort of thing Orwell wrote about fifty years ago.

America is not at war. There is nobody to fight.

Re:bite me asshat.

[say]

Chechnian rebels are also Islamic fundamentalists

Understanding the world in terms of Christianity/Islam isn't going to get you anywhere. The Chechnian rebels are now Islamic, but they used to be secular - non-religious. They are Islamic now, but they are obviously different from Al-Qaeda. They have territorial claims, Al-Qaeda has not.

Actually, the way the Russians have treated the Chechnian people makes quite good soil for fundamentalism. Just like the US and Iraq, I suppose.

religion and voting

[No-op]

As a christian, I can honestly say that I think bush mouths all the phrases he thinks conservative christians would like to hear. I think if you look more deeply into his actions, you see someone who has no idea about any of the basic tenets of christianity, and is just playing a game to garner votes.

This holds true for pretty much all politicians, really, but I find bush's efforts in this regard to be quite appalling. I certainly don't want to vote for Kerry (who has always been a loser) but I'm voting against bush, more than anything.

That being said, I know way too many people voting for bush just because he says he's an "evangelical christian". I usually suggest that the actions of jesus sound like scary liberal hippie communism, which draws blank stares.

Re:bite me asshat.

[CaptRespect]

"no links found to al-Qaeda and no WMDs"

Actually the 9/11 commission did conclude that there were links to al-Qaeda (just not to the 9/11 attacks). And they did find that sarin gas bomb that had about a gallon of sarin gas.

Re:Hell yeah

[gcaseye6677]

Call me a cynic, but I have a hard time believing that a site called anyonebutbush.com is an objective source of facts and information. If you want to read such a site for your amusement, go right ahead, but to cite it in an argument as a factual source will not convince anyone who was not already a Bush basher.

Re:bite me asshat.

[torpor]

uh huh ... so, like, the war on invasion by the aliens is going pretty well too, since none of that seems to be happening.

sheesh. baaah!

The answer is extremely simple

[Rui del-Negro]

If I interview 20 people and 6 of them agree with me and I only use those 6 to support my point of view even though 14 disagreed then did I represent "fact"?

Yes. Documentaries are not statistics and are not reporting. A documentary is simply a movie based on real people and real events, period. Documentarists have always presented their point of view - in fact, most people agree that that's preciely the point of documentaries (Moore actually got the highest american award for best documentary, remember?).

Unfortunately, some people (like you) think that the only people allowed to express their point of view are the ones they agree with. Maybe you should apply for a job with the KGB (or, the way things are going, with the Bush administration).

If you think anything in Fahrenheit 9/11 is a lie, sue Moore and get rich. I'm sure you'll find plenty of people willing to finance your legal expenses (as long as they don't have to go public). For some reason no-one has...

And if you think that "the other side of the story" stands up, go make a documentary showing it (it's not as if you need a huge budget or a big crew). Again, for some reason no-one has...

RMN
~~~

Re:bite me asshat.

[rhakka]

Are you trying to show a possible trend with a single data point?

Well gee, I thought we'd have INFINITE ATTACKS PER MINUTE after 9/11, so YEAH, we're doing GREAT!!!!!

Or maybe I thought that since the last terrorist large scale action on our soil (oklahoma city 1995) occurred six years earlier, that we could expect another attack within six years! We're over halfway now, so far so good huh!

Or maybe I thought that sine the last FOREIGN large scale attack on our soil (pearl harbor, 1941) that we'd see another one within SIXTY years.

What are you, an idiot? We're doing pretty well because there hasn't been another attack here? Tell you what; when we get Iraq calmed down, let me know, and I'll agree we've done anything to calm down terrorism. Until then, all we know is that we haven't been attacked again yet. We are in no way secure from such an attack, nor will we ever be. Pretending we are is just wishful thinking.

Re:You have to WONDER?

[wrecked]

I think that your definition of propaganda is the most insightful one I've seen on this site. However (and this will seem far-left nutty to most slashdotters), I think Moore's film serves as propaganda in a subversive way to actually reinforce certain memes that are peculiar to the U.S. and generally serve the elite class.

As with Al Franken's Lying Liars book, F9/11 does not question the moral validity of attacking Afghanistan following 9/11. In fact, just like Franken, Moore criticizes Bush Jr. for not doing enough on Afghanistan. Leaving aside the merits of this military intervention, what Moore (and Franken) essentially do is limit the debate so that the Afghan invasion is taken for granted as being justified.

Also, Moore and Franken are not inherently against the invasion of Iraq; they criticize Bush Jr. for doing it unilaterally and with a false pretext. However, neither really debate whether an invasion could ever be justified, even if the invasion had U.N. backing or if biological/chemical weapons had been found.

Noam Chomsky has said that political debate in the U.S. is confined to polarized expressions contained within a narrow spectrum of ideas. For example, on the bellweather issue of same-sex marriage, it's kind of funny that both the Bush and Kerry tickets are against it; Kerry-Edward's position that they would support civil unions is basically the same position taken by the Conservatives here in Canada, a position that the electorate found too right-wing.

I actually found Franken's book to be surprisingly right-wing, even though it was funny and entertaining. Similarly, Moore's film, while entertaining, misguidedly blamed the Iraq fiasco entirely on Bush Jr's incompetence, even while it was reinforcing U.S. notions of patriotism and duty to the military. Missing from Moore's film was any context on how Bush Jr's invasion was a continuation of questionable U.S. foreign policy in Iraq during the 1990's under both Bush Sr. and Clinton. And missing from this entire debate is whether Kerry will do anything differently, or merely continue American imperialism albeit under a kinder, gentler guise (note that even Chomsky is saying vote Kerry, just to get Bush Jr. out).

Screw the political process- this will hurt Dems!

[Xeger]

After five years of making thoughtful and informed posts, I have some karma to burn. I'll regret having posted this when I see that "-5 Troll" beside it later today -- but I figure, a guy's got a right to let off some steam.

I'll let you in on a little secret of mine. Liberal as I am, I enjoy tuning into Fox. I like reading the RNC's website. I have fun watching the masters of hypocrisy and intolerance. They say some mighty funny, outrageous things! I wouldn't want these crackpots in charge of my country, my legal system or even the corporations in which I own stock -- but that doesn't stop me from laughing at 'em. For every three logical things they say, they just have to throw in a zinger -- a racist slur, a completely inappropriate personal attack, a tremendous fallacy, a made-up statistic, or what have you. And I find that funny as all hell!

To all of the Bill O'Reillys of the world, for the Rush Limbaughs, the Ed Gillespies and the Zell Millers, I would like to say: nyeah nyeah nyeah, we have our own pundits now!

(I apologize that all of those links are to biased sources; I tried to find more impartial sources for my quotes, but "unbiased" news sources tend to shy away from reporting on the more outrageous things our politicians and public figures say, because they would quickly gain a reputation for being biased for having done so.)

Yes, now we progressives have our own crackpot figures who make completely unfounded statements with fallacies you could drive a truck through. They twist words, edit footage and tinker until the truth looks juuuuuuust right. Like their regressive counterparts, they're darned good at it. I honestly enjoy them as entertainment, I do.

Aside from giving me great insight into Bush's and Cheney's motivations (money) and Bush's personality (insecure, attention-seeking jock who aims to please his parent figures), Fahrenheit 9/11 was funny, tragic, moving, a reminder of all we lost that day and all we've lost since: collective innocence, blissful ignorance of the effects of our actions abroad, good men in uniform, personal freedoms. Looking through the bull puckey about Saudi air travel privileges, tuning out the anti-war propaganda, I sat in the theater and saw a decent movie.

But this movie did not sway my political position any more than watching The O'Reilly Factor would. This is because Michael Moore, like all the rest of the pundits, makes entertainment. He tries to deliver a political message, but the message is almost always choked by his own hyperbole and willingness to sacrifice the truth in order to inspire outrage in his viewers.

If the intent of releasing Fahrenheit 9/11 ahead of time is to sway the minds of voters, I am afraid the stunt will backfire horribly. Most of the nation is already set in stone as to who they will vote for. The only votes left up for grabs are the precious, the few, the "swing votes." By definition, these people are independent, and like to think about their decisions before making them. They like to check their facts, and they are not easily swayed by appeals to sentimentality. If these people are forced to approach Fahrenheit 9/11 as a run-on political advertisement, they will rebel. They will scoff at the inaccuracies and ignore the redeeming social and political message of the movie. And that just might sway them enough to vote for the other side . . .

Just a thought.

Re:bite me asshat.

[CGP314]

How many terrorism related deaths have there been in the US since 9/11... The War on Terror needs to be fought, maybe differently than it has been, but in terms of the US, things are going pretty well.

"There's not a single bear in sight--the 'Bear Patrol' is working like a charm".

"That's specious reasoning,"

"Thanks, honey,"

"According to your logic, this rock keeps tigers away"

"Hmmm. How does it work?"

"It doesn't."

"How so?"

"It's just a rock. But I don't see a tiger, anywhere."

"Lisa, I want to buy your rock."


-Colin

Re:bite me asshat.

[Theaetetus]

Kerry came back testifying how horrible it was for him and his shipmates to have had to become war criminals, knowing full well that they weren't.

Did criminal actions take place during the war? Yes. Were those criminal actions performed by US Servicemen? Yes. Therefore, yes, they were war criminals. But Kerry wasn't coming back to say "Bob Jones - he's a criminal. Fred Murphy - he's a criminal too. Lock my fellow veterans up". He came back to say "this war and the policies behind it are wrong, it was started on a false premise, and criminal policies are being handed down as 'orders'." Kinda like the one in Iraq now - false premises (WMDs), and criminal policies (Abu Gharib).

He did throw his medals, or ribbons, or whatever at the whitehouse in protest, yet still manages to conjure them up today.

If you don't know what he threw - medals, ribbons, or whatever - how can you complain when he shows something? Maybe he's wearing the medals now, and he threw his ribbons (don't see him wearing his ribbons, do you?). Or maybe, as you say, he threw his 'whatever', and it's still lying on the Whitehouse lawn.

-T

A modest proposal

[The Conductor]

A simpler suggestion to the Slashdot masses...don't bother with any of it, the film, the critique, the counter-critique, the counter-counter-critique, the whole lot of it. Your time is better spent finding better sources of political analysis than a Hollywood-style movie.

Watching Winslet & DeCaprio cavorting around is entertaining and all (and the fact that both characters die by the end of the film is an extra bonus), and attention to historical detail makes a film seem more immediate and "puts you in the story," but if you want to know why Titanic sank, you should look elsewhere. Even if every detail is scrupulously correct, that doesn't make it useful. Why treat contemporary politics differently?

Re:Guerilla Politics

[JohnnyX]

I agree. We ought to add an amendment to the Constitution that lets people say whatever they want, whenever they want.

Yours truly,
Mr. X

...just a thought...

Not "no" threat, just not much of a threat.

[khasim]

Semantic check:

"Either that, or the complete absence of terrorist strikes in the US since 9/11 indicates -- not that we are fighting "terror" and winning -- but that there is no terrorist threat to the United States of America."

Statistically - you are far Far FAR more likely to be killed on the highway then by a terrorist.

Statistically - you are more likely to be killed by someone in your own family than by a terrorist.

(neither of those statistics include people killed in foreign countries)

So, there IS a terrorist threat to the citizens of the USofA. Just not much of one. But that RARITY in itself leads the media to cover it completely out of proportion to the likelyhood of it happening again.

Now, is there a terrorist threat to the USofA? No.

Nothing any terrorist can do will EVER destroy the USofA. Under no circumstances will we overthrow our existing government and install a Muslim theocracy.

On the other hand, we can slip into a fundamentalist theocracy (see Bush and Co.) or a corporate-based fascist state. But that won't be because Osama did anything. That will be because WE voted for it and allowed it.

Re:bite me asshat.

[dup_account]

Let's be more specific... How many terrorist deaths in the US did Iraq fund on 9/11? That would be 0.

How many terrorist related deaths in the US come from Iraq before we invaded them? Again... 0.

How many Assam Bin Ladens (SP) have been captured since 9/11? That would be 0.

Yep... War on Terror is a big success... Just like the war on drugs... the war on poverty... the war on .. oh, you get the point.

Re:bite me asshat.

[EnderWiggnz]

you've never let reality bother you, have you?

John kerry came back, and joined a group of veterans called the "Winter Soldiers" and testifies to congress as a representative of that group. To wit, his openning statement was:
---
I am not here as John Kerry. I am here as one member of the group of 1,000 which is a small representation of a very much larger group of veterans in this country, and were it possible for all of them to sit at this table they would be here and have the same kind of testimony....
---

He came back from Vietnam, and spoke Truth to Power. He spoke against an unpopular war. He pulled back the curtain on the atrocities that were occuring every day in 'Nam.

He did the right thing.

How you pervert this brave, heroic, selfless act into some treasonous account is beyond me.

We are asked this year to decide between a decorated war hero; who came back and spoke against the war he fought in, and a coward whose father got him a cushy spot in a champagne squadron, who couldnt even bother to show up between lines of coke.

i know exactly who i would want in the foxhole next to me, and it sure as hell isnt a coked up fratboy.

Discussions about Michael Moore are a distraction.

[Futurepower(R)]

One thing discussions like this have taught me is that there are a LOT of people who have very little idea what their government is doing. There is enough material about U.S. government corruption to make a hundred movies like Fahrenheit 9/11.

I've found that most U.S. citizens don't know that the U.S. government has killed more than 3,000,000 people in war since the end of World War II. None of those people directly threatened the United States.

I've found that most U.S. citizens don't know that the U.S. government has engaged in 24 wars since the end of World War II.

Want to educate yourself about U.S. goverment corruption? See the two other movies and read the 35 books reviewed in this article: Unprecedented Corruption: A guide to conflict of interest in the U.S. government.

This is how it has been going:

Michael Moore: Parts of the U.S. government are very, very corrupt.

TV shows and newspaper articles: Michael Moore is a liar!

Other TV shows and newspaper articles: Michael Moore is not a liar!

Discussions about Michael Moore are a distraction. We should be discussing U.S. government corruption. For example, we should be discussing the U.S. government's relationship with Saudi Arabia that is unhealthy for both countries. There were only hints of that in Fahrenheit 9/11. The movie showed network footage of George W. Bush holding hands with Prince Bandar of Saudi Arabia. Why was he doing that, aside from the fact that men sometimes hold hands in Saudi Arabia? Why are they so warm with each other that they hold hands in public? One clue: I think we can rule out any idea that Prince Bandar actually likes George W. Bush; that would be very much against Saudi culture.

Obviousman to the rescue!

[Theaetetus]

Or maybe you were talking about the Kerry who voted for invading Iraq before he voted against it?

Now, let's put that quote back in context... Originally, a bill was proposed seeking $87 billion in funding to support the war in Iraq, to be paid for by repealing the Bush tax cut. Kerry voted for it. Bush refused to sign that bill, and instead had a Republican senator propose an identical $87 billion dollar bill for funding to be paid for by increasing the deficit. John Kerry, among others, believe that you don't just run up your credit cards willy-nilly without figuring some way to pay them, and voted against that bill.

Does this mean Kerry doesn't support the troops? Nope - in fact, Bush was the one who sent them off to war improperly funded and supplied (remember all the APCs and Humvees that didn't have armor?). Kerry does support the troops. He also supports not running up trillion dollar deficits while keeping a tax cut that gives middle-class and below families less than $300 each, while upper-class people get hundreds of times that.

-T

Re:bite me asshat.

[FuzzyBad-Mofo]

the anthrax killer never found

Wasn't it determined that the anthrax originated in our own (US) military biolabs? Isn't it a strange coincidence how the first person killed in the anthrax attacks was a nosy reporter who had just published an embarassing photo of Bush's daughter?

In other news, OJ continues his search for, "the real killers"..

Farenheit 9/11 In Cuba

[iamghetto]

I'm not sure if people are aware of this or not, but at the end of July, after only a week in theatres, Farenheit 9/11 played on prime time TV in Cuba .

See cached yahoo news here.
See some other cuban news source here.

Get Real...

[coronaride]

Nothing any terrorist can do will EVER destroy the USofA. Under no circumstances will we overthrow our existing government and install a Muslim theocracy.

It's this kind of thinking that really pisses me off - remnants of Manifest Destiny. Why the hell do we, as residents of the United States of America, think that we are invincible? This is what happens when you don't pay attention in your history classes, boys and girls! Let's take a look at the Persians, the Greeks, the Holy Roman Empire, the British Empire, and, hell, even the USSR. These were mighty, mighty nations with incredible power, control, and influence and they all fell out of power. The fact of the matter is that, eventually, the United States WILL fall and we may very well refer to the means of that as 'terrorism'.

Terrorism - The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons.

Yeah, wouldn't you consider the American Revolution against the British an act of Terrorism? What is defined as terrorism is actually capable of bringing about positive change.

As residents of humanity, we need to recognize that all Nations created (in past or in the future) are corrupt and either have failed or are doomed to fail. Now, perhaps I'm just a doomsayer, but my feelings are that the unrest of many combined with the apathy and ignorance of many more are telling evidence of a major paradigm shift in American culture. I don't know about you, but I'm looking forward to some change. Especially if it means taking the two-party system to the scrap pile.

Now I'm not saying that we're going to overthrow our existing government and install a Muslim theocracy in its place, but it is totally and intrinsically inaccurate to say that "Nothing any terrorist can do will EVER destroy the USofA". Even the terrorist act on 9/11 is stirring the pot and, if you can't see that, well..I don't know..I guess I wouldn't be surprised. Seems like most people don't anyhow..

Anyhow, my two cents..

Re:Michael Moore

[Morganth]

...comparing him to Hitler...

This is one of those myths that has been busted time and time again, but thick-headed conservatives nonetheless spew the lies and thus perpetuate them.

To make the myth more concrete, conservatives believe MoveOn.org, a 527 group clearly connected in some way with the Democratic party (yes, this is itself wrong, but talk to your Congressman about Campaign Finance Reform if you want something to be done about it) ran an ad comparing Bush to Hitler. Here's what really happened--here's the background the soundbite-obsessed Fox News anchors can't dig into because they aren't real journalists.

MoveOn.org ran a content called Bush in 30 Seconds. It was a content that allows ANYONE to submit an ad to MoveOn.org, and the ads would be showcased on the website while voting took place. The ad with the most votes would be aired by MoveOn.org.

Two of the OVER 1,500 ads compared Bush to Hitler. You can see these two ads here and here.

Now, in case we are forgetting, let me remind you of the correct interpretation of the first amendment--in order for there to be freedom of speech, there has to be freedom of speech even for ideas you don't like . Sure, most people absolutely hate even the mention of Hitler, but by censoring those people who use his image or make comparisons to him, we violate the first amendment right in all cases. There are some legal exceptions (the famous "fighting words" case among others).

That said, I am just reminding you that even these two amateur filmmakers did nothing wrong within the law, which sometimes isn't clear to people who don't truly respect constitutional rights.

The bottom line, however, is that MoveOn.org never aired these ads because people never voted them to the top. So, although you can fault these two amateur filmmakers for this film, you can't fault the democratic party, "democrats" at large, or even MoveOn.org. It would be like faulting Salon.com (or "the liberal media") if on one of their Forums I posted a message that said Bush reminds me of Hitler.

Plus, I find this somewhat ridiculous because one could easily turn this around. Conservative "figureheads" have made the same kinds of comparisons in the past. Look no further than Rush Limbaugh who, at least once, used the term "feminazis" to describe feminists, and called abortion "the modern-day holocaust." This is from his published book in 1992. I am positive that most moral theorists and philosophers would find serious problems with that equivalence claim, regardless of their standpoint on abortion. Contrast this to the two ads posted on MoveOn.org, and you find one very important distinction. The ads on MoveOn.org focus on Hitler's power in using propaganda, his military force abroad and his rhetoric saying that he is driven by God. These particular aspects of Hitler's character could be argued to be found in George W. Bush. However, the comparison is unfair because it seeks emotional manipulation and deception, in that whenever someone thinks of Hitler, one thinks immediately of the holocaust and pure evil (thus, the mental connection, whatever the intention, becomes "Bush is this evil murderous leader"). But you have to admit that Limbaugh's comparison is much worse, because he effectively says that feminists are evil, murderous people, conducting their own holocaust. A clear distinction.

But, I won't fault him for that. After all, he is just one person, one viewpoint. It's his right of speech. And that means I can't say, "because Rush Limbaugh said it, it is mainstream conservati

Effects of Media Consolidation - Not a Chance =(

[mgbastard]

As much as I would like this to happen; It won't. We know ABC and FOX are out. Perhaps CBS is a shot, but they are VERY family friendly with their mix of shows... they wouldn't want a religious right boycott. And all the cable networks are consolidated now, so there's no independent voice there either. "AOL" Time Warner's new crop of old media executives will keep it off their networks. Bravo and USA are owned by NBC. I would guess NBC is the closest shot at getting it aired. I discount ABC because Disney is the parent company, and FOX, well shit Rupert Murdoch isn't going to have any of that film on his stations.

Isn't media consolidation great? Thanks FCC.

All that being said, we'd be far better off in educating America if Bush's Brain was aired on television. That is a much more enlightening film. No offense Michael, I love your work, but Karl Rove is more dangerous than the Bush family ties to bin Laden.

Disclaimer: I have given to Kerry Edwards 2004, I have even have a sign in my yard (TEXAS) Not only that, I voted twice for Ross Perot. I remain an independent.

More Moore, not less

[evilpenguin]

To me, what we need is more Michael Moores, not fewer. Passionate people comitted to advocacy are what we need. Impassioned, biased as hell, clamoring for attention, screaming for justice. The problem is we have focus-group tested messages, campaigns designed to offend the fewest, messages targeted to motivate specific hot button issues and worse, specific fears, and we have journalists who would rather report simple polls than question policies.

In fact, as much as I despise the Republican party, it is not their fault they get away with this stuff (and the Democrats are no better, they're just not as good at it). The press is to blame. They bring in a right-wing shill and a left-wing shill that hit their talking points and they say "There you go. We're fair. We give boths sides." Both sides are a howling vacuum.

Michael Moore produced a singularly one sided narrative. Good! Let the other side do the same. I miss the days when cities had multiple newspapers and they were clearly partisan. They'd fight over every scrap of data. They'd dispute every assertion. They'd catch the other side's every lie. Sure, they'd gloss over their side's lies, but that's why you had the other sides papers.

We're awash in an ocean of carefully tepid news. Ask your local thermodynamicist how much work you can accomplish when the temperature is everywhere the same. I'd like to see some white hot blood in the debate. I'd like to hear a human voice instead of a scientifically measured non-message.

FOX is on 24 hours a day. Let Michael Moore have his 2 hours. If, like me, you basically agree with him, get mad and vote, and go to your next precinct caucus. Write letters. If Moore makes your gorge rise to the top of your throat, go out and make your movie (like the michaelmoorehatesamerica.com guy). You may not be as good at it as Moore. It might take you as long as it took him to get the stage like he has, but if you are pissed enough AND funny enough, you can do what he did. "Roger and Me" got made because he was mad and ironic and smart. And bitterly opinionated.

Do likewise!

The real problem with Florida

[Rob Y.]

Bush may have 'won' Florida, but my beef is this. By any standard, he only won because of the butterfly ballot screw-up. And even then, lost the popular vote and only won by the slimmest Electoral College margin.

Probably the exit polls the networks relied on more accurately reflected the voters' intentions than the actual count did. But them's the rules.

All fair enough.

But the guy ran as a moderate 'uniter, not a divider'. Now you'd think a moderate uniter, especially one that got in through a fluke, might try to actually govern from the middle. Well, we know that didn't happen. GWB's been all talk, spin and constantly recallibrated salesmanship. All covering for actions that have been about as partisan as possible. So some people are mad. Go figure

Re:bite me asshat.

[Bora Horza Gobuchol]

Actually the 9/11 commission did conclude that there were links to al-Qaeda (just not to the 9/11 attacks).

Quite correct. In short, the links amounted to:

- al-Qaeda asks Saddam: "Can we set up a radio station inside Iraq to broadcast propoganda into Saudi Arabia?" Saddam says yes - it makes sense to him to help destabilize Saudi Arabia.

- al-Qaeda asks Saddam: "Can we set up a terrorist training camp inside Iraq?" Saddam says: "Sod off!" He's not stupid.

And they did find that sarin gas bomb that had about a gallon of sarin gas.

Quite correct. There are, however, two points that you missed.

The "bomb" - it was an IED - consisted of a unmarked 155mm mortar round. There's no proof that the round itself came from, or was manufactured in, Iraq. It was found near the Bahgdad airport, so it may have some from Syria ... but let's say that it was made in Iraq.

The bomb did explode, or partially release - yet it didn't kill anyone. Why not?

One of the unspoken details of the whole "WMD" fiasco is that chemicals decay. Nerve, chemical and biological agents have a limited "shelf life". Sarin gas - even in binary format, as the round apparently was - is effective for only a limited period of time.

Based on the available evidence (rather than hearsay) it most likely that the round was over a decade old. In other words, it was produced before Gulf War I. In other words, based on available evidence, the various bans and inspections in Iraq were working prior to the invasion. No new weapons were being produced, and Saddam only had a small, poorly developed, ineffective and rapidly decaying stockpile of decade-old weapons.

Re:bite me asshat.

[bcboy]

Oh, and nevermind the basic fact that KERRY WAS THE ONE FULL OF SHIT.

For the historically challenged, some first-hand testimony of veterans. BTW, I've been to some grass roots Kerry events, and they are filled with Vietnam vets who say, all around, "I've been waiting 30 years to vote for this man," because he spoke to their experiences, which no one else was willing to do.

SCOTT CAMILE: "My name is Scott Camile. I was a Sgt. attached to Charley 1/1. I was a forward observer in Vietnam. I went in right after high school and I'm a student now ... The cutting off of heads -- on Operation Stone -- there was a Lt. Colonel there and two people had their heads cut off and put on stakes and stuck in the middle of the field. And we were notified that there was press covering the operation and that we couldn't do that anymore. Before we went out on the operation we were told not to waste our heat tablets on food but to save them for the villages because we were going to destroy all the villages and we didn't give the people any time to get out of the villages. We just went in and burned them and if people were in the villages yelling and screaming, we didn't help them. We just burned the houses as we went.

"MODERATOR: Why did you use the heat tabs? Did you just light off the villages with matches or just throw the heat tabs in so it would keep burning?

"CAMILE: We'd throw the heat tabs in because it was quicker and they'd keep burning. They couldn't put the heat tabs out. We'd throw them on top of the houses. People cut off ears and when they'd come back in off of an operation you'd make deals before you'd go out and like for every ear you cut off someone would buy you two beers, so people cut off ears. The torturing of prisoners was done with beatings and I saw one case where there were two prisoners. One prisoner was staked out on the ground and he was cut open while he was alive and part of his insides were cut out and they told the other prisoner if he didn't tell them what they wanted to know they would kill him. And I don't know what he said because he spoke in Vietnamese but then they killed him after that anyway."

JAMES DUFFY: "I served as a machine gunner, on a CH-47, Chinook helicopter with Company A, 228th Aviation Battalion, 1st Air Cav. Division, from February '67 to April '68.

"I iced a contingent of Vietnamese peasants chopping wood and I decided, well, if the Vietnamese can fire a round into my ship, then I can fire as many rounds into the Vietnamese as I want to.

"So I swung my machine gun onto this group of peasants and opened fire. Fortunately, the gun jammed after one or two rounds, which was pretty lucky, because this group of peasants turned out to be a work party hired by the government to clear the area and there was GIs guarding them about 50 meters away. But my mind was so psyched out into killing gooks that I never even paid attention to look around and see where I was. I just saw gooks and I wanted to kill them. I was pretty scared after that happened because that sort of violated the unwritten code that you can do anything you want to as long as you don't get caught. That's, I guess that's, what happened with the My Lai incident. Those guys just were following the same pattern that we've been doing there for 10 years, but they had the misfortune of getting caught at it.

"I looked out across the field and I spotted a Vietnamese woman peasant running away from the ship. I fired a burst of about six or seven rounds into her back before we fired, before we hit the ground. When I was being questioned as to what happened about two weeks later by a captain in my company, I told him what we did and what I did. We both had a good laugh about it. That was pretty much company policy. Also in Hue, during the Tet offensive in '68, I observed American fighters and bombers (Phantoms) dropping bombs and napalm into very crowded streets full of civilians. I don't know how many people were wiped out in that pla

Re:Wrong

[Brandybuck]

And he's the bad guy? I don't get it.

I can see that. There must be a lot of things you don't get. I am not a Bush supporter, but the stuff Moore picks out and focuses on are just bizarre.

Reading a children's book is a good example. What the fsck did you want the president to do? Throw the book up in the air and scream like a madman? Instantly launch a bunch of counterstrikes at a then unknown target? Hold a press conference within five minutes to present a weepy announcement? Moore's portrayal of that event is weird. Is he implying that Bush knew 9/11 was going to happen and the children were an "alibi"? Is he implying that Bush should have instantly restored order instead of reading to children? Is he implying that simply reading to children is an unpresidential activity?

Moore has taken a bunch of BFD-class molehills and tried to construct a mountain out of them. Bu that mountain is very crumbly and doesn't give you much of a view when you get to the top.

Yes, he's fat and vain, but being fat and vain doesn't make you wrong when you're right.

No one, and I mean no one, is claiming that Moore is wrong using "fat and vain" as evidence. That's beyond stupid.

Fox News is propaganda

[Anonymous Coward]

Moore's film is no more propaganda than what's shown on FOX or Murdoch's radio stations. Freedom of speech should extend beyond those who own the media.

Re:Michael Moore

[Anonymous Coward]

Conservative "figureheads" have made the same kinds of comparisons in the past. Look no further than Rush Limbaugh who, at least once, used the term "feminazis" to describe feminists, and called abortion "the modern-day holocaust." This is from his published book in 1992.

You don't have to look that far back. Just look at the official Bush web site a few weeks ago:

The Bush video's opening white-on-black graphic says, "The Faces of John Kerry's Democratic Party. The Coalition of the Wild-eyed." Next comes a parade of angry speakers: Al Gore, Hitler, Howard Dean, Michael Moore, Dick Gephardt, Hitler, Gore, and Kerry.

That is, an official ad, not one that was posted to an open forum and then deleted by the moderators.

link

Re:Discussions about Michael Moore are a distracti

[RobertB-DC]

The movie showed network footage of George W. Bush holding hands with Prince Bandar of Saudi Arabia. Why was he doing that, aside from the fact that men sometimes hold hands in Saudi Arabia? Why are they so warm with each other that they hold hands in public? One clue: I think we can rule out any idea that Prince Bandar actually likes George W. Bush; that would be very much against Saudi culture.

I was hoping for better than the Fifteen Hundredth Post to make this suggestion, but it goes with your comment. Plus, I need to make my crystal-ball prediction before it comes true.

I've believed, and have since early this summer (when I almost had to pay $2.00 a gallon for regular unleaded in Texas), that the Saudis are planning to play an active role in George Dubya's re-election. How can they do that, when election laws expressly forbid foreign contributions? Simple: adjust the price of oil.

Right now, I see $1.719 and think "wow, what a bargain!" But the night of 9/11, when gas lines were around the block at every station, the same price was absolutely absurd. It's only a bargain compared to the $1.80 I was paying two weeks ago, and the $1.90 I was paying earlier this year.

Now the price is dropping. Here's my prediction: prices will continue to drop right through the election, regardless of world events (short of a 9/11-style cataclysm). When Biff drives his H2 to the polls in Highland Park, he'll be thinking of how nice it is to have cheap gas again, not the 1000+ troops sent to die in Biff's name for that cheap gas.

Re:bite me asshat.

[Specter]

Senator Kerry admited that he personally committed war crimes (see the attached excerpt from an MSNBC transcript which quotes Senate hearings from 1971).

In the attached excerpt you'll see that he tries to back pedal out of that statement, but the fact is that he either did commit atrocities as he says he personally did or he lied to Congress about it. Either way the man is not fit to be the Commander in Chief of the United States.

(Videotape, MEET THE PRESS, April 18, 1971):

MR. KERRY (Vietnam Veterans Against the War): There are all kinds of atrocities and I would have to say that, yes, yes, I committed the same kind of atrocities as thousands of other soldiers have committed in that I took part in shootings in free-fire zones. I conducted harassment and interdiction fire. I used 50-caliber machine guns which we were granted and ordered to use, which were our only weapon against people. I took part in search-and-destroy missions, in the burning of villages. All of this is contrary to the laws of warfare. All of this is contrary to the Geneva Conventions and all of this ordered as a matter of written established policy by the government of the United States from the top down. And I believe that the men who designed these, the men who designed the free-fire zone, the men who ordered us, the men who signed off the air raid strike areas, I think these men, by the letter of the law, the same letter of the law that tried Lieutenant Calley, are war criminals.

(End videotape)

Mr. Russert: You committed atrocities.

Senator Kerry: Where did all that dark hair go, Tim? That's a big question for me. You know, I
thought a lot, for a long time, about that period of time, the things we said, and I think the word is a bad word. I think it's an inappropriate word. I mean, if you wanted to ask me have you ever made mistakes in your life, sure. I think some of the language that I used was a language that reflected an anger. It was honest, but it was in anger, it was a little bit excessive.

Mr. Russert: You used the word "war criminals."

Senator Kerry: Well, let me just finish. Let me must finish. It was, I think, a reflection of the kind of times we found ourselves in and I don't like it when I hear it today. I don't like it, but I want you to notice that at the end, I wasn't talking about the soldiers and the soldiers' blame, and my great regret is, I hope no soldier--I mean, I think some soldiers were angry at me for that, and I understand that and I regret that, because I love them. But the words were honest but on the other hand, they were a little bit over the top. And I think that there were breaches of the Geneva Conventions. There were policies in place that were not acceptable according to the laws of warfare, and everybody knows that. I mean, books have chronicled that, so I'm not going to walk away from that. But I wish I had found a way to say it in a less abrasive way.

Mr. Russert: But, Senator, when you testified before the Senate, you talked about some of the hearings you had observed at the winter soldiers meeting and you said that people had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and on and on. A lot of those stories have been discredited, and in hindsight was your testimony...

Senator Kerry: Actually, a lot of them have been documented.

Mr. Russert: So you stand by that?

Senator Kerry: A lot of those stories have been documented. Have some been discredited? Sure, they have, Tim. The problem is that's not where the focus should have been. And, you know, when you're angry about something and you're young, you know, you're perfectly capable of not--I mean, if I had the kind of experience and time behind me that I have today, I'd have framed some of that differently. Needless to say, I'm proud that I stood up. I don't want anybody to think twic

Creative quoting?

[Rui del-Negro]

Funny how that site gives you a definition for the noun and a definition for the adjective and you decided to quote the wrong one, eh? Creative quoting, I guess.

Here's the other one (for the noun, from the very same page):

"A work, such as a film or television program, presenting political, social, or historical subject matter in a factual and informative manner and often consisting of actual news films or interviews accompanied by narration" (fits Fahrenheit 9/11 like a glove, more so than any of Moore's previous documentaries, in fact).

But let's see what specialised sites have to say about it:

[1] "an interpretation of theoretical, factual, political, social or historical events or issues presented either objectively or with a specific point of view"

[2] "a nonfiction motion picture film having a theme or viewpoint but drawing its material from actual events and using editing and sound to enhance the theme"

[3] "a non-fiction film which usually, although not always, has a particular point of view regarding its subject matter"

[4] "an eligible documentary film is defined as a theatrically released non-fiction motion picture dealing creatively with cultural, artistic, historical, social, scientific, economic or other subjects"

[5] "factual footage arranged in such a way that it informs and expresses a point of view"

I've been working on (and watching) documentaries for a couple of decades, and these are the definitions employed and accepted by the authors, the industry, the critics, the festivals and the viewers. If you think a documentary is something else, you can either a) correct yourself or b) try to convice every filmmaker, film institute, film festival, cinema historian, etc., that they are wrong.

Either way, good luck, it's not going to be easy.

RMN
~~~

So?

[sheldon]

I don't really like Michael Moore. But why is it bad that he's biased? Why is it bad that he is presenting his point of view and interpretation of events?

I watched F9/11. I didn't particularly like it. I felt the only meaningful point made in the film was the 7 minute footage of Bush just sitting there when the towers were hit by planes.

Watching that, I can't imagine anybody being impressed, and yet I heard scores upon scores of people making the patently stupid statement, "Oh, but he didn't want to scare the children."

Christ, talk about bias.

On many occasions, in Moore's film, he is misleading and deceiving, even cut-'n-pasting audio clips, or leaving out important conext.

You've just described the entire GW Bush reelection campaign, right there. How many times have we heard John Kerry is a flip-flop based upon taking statements out of context?

If you're going to whine about bias, you better be willing to whine about everyone. Otherwise you're nothing more than a biased shill yourself.

Read what I wrote.

[khasim]

"The fact of the matter is that, eventually, the United States WILL fall and we may very well refer to the means of that as 'terrorism'."

What-the-fuck-ever. If that's what you want to believe, that's your perogative.

"Now I'm not saying that we're going to overthrow our existing government and install a Muslim theocracy in its place, but it is totally and intrinsically inaccurate to say that "Nothing any terrorist can do will EVER destroy the USofA"."

Again, what-the-fuck-ever. Do you believe the terrorists will EVER overthrow our government and install THEIR OWN GOVERNMENT in its place?

I don't. And until they can do that, they are NOT a threat to the USofA.

"Even the terrorist act on 9/11 is stirring the pot and, if you can't see that, well..I don't know..I guess I wouldn't be surprised. Seems like most people don't anyhow.."

The problem is that YOU see EVERYTHING that happens as being the result of "terrorism".

It isn't.

"Terrorism" is the EXCUSE given to justify those actions. Most of the new laws we have to deal with were proposed BEFORE the WTC attack. But they didn't have any hope of passage.

Once there was a significant FOREIGN terrorist attack in the US, it was used to justify the passage of those laws.

Terrorism isn't the cause or the reason.

Power is the reason.

Terrorism is the excuse.

Osama will never take D.C. nor will he ever be elected President of the USofA. He and all the other terrorists will NEVER overthrow the USofA.

Only we can do that.

Re:Read what I wrote.

[coronaride]

Well it certainly seems like you are getting your definition of terrorism from either Fox News or President Bush. As mentioned in a previous reply to my original post, not all terrorism is specifically flying a plane into a building, exploding a bomb in a truck, or high-jacking a bus full of kids - not to say that these aren't acts of terrorism, but that's not what its limited to. Terrorism is a buzz-word and people are throwing it around without any regard nowadays.

What-the-fuck-ever. If that's what you want to believe, that's your perogative.

That's right, it is my perogative, but you are fooling yourself if you think that the United States is going to stand till the end of time. WE ARE F*CKING INFANTS compared to other countries around and we have the ability to lose our supremecy JUST as fast as we got it.

The problem is that YOU see EVERYTHING that happens as being the result of "terrorism".

Where did I say anything remotely close to that? What I was saying was that terrorism is one way for people to try to get what they want..especially when someone is REALLY desparate for it. The bottom line is that things are BOUND to change and there will be many reasons for it in this country; terrorism, whether you like it or not, has affected us and has altered the decisions to be made...

For example, say that because of the Patriot Act, formed ever so intrepidly by our fearless leaders, gets out of control in the future and becomes more and more invasive. So invasive, in fact, that it causes a complete civil war or public uprising. If it weren't for even the existence of terrorism, there wouldn't have been need for the Patriot Act in the first place, so it indirectly caused the regime change! Now, I'm not saying that this is going to happen, this is purely hypothetical.

That said..people like you piss me off. You think that you live in a bubble and that as long as you salute the bald eagle, vote republican/democrate, pay your taxes, and watch Sunday football that life is always going to be hunky dorey. Do you realize how long our country has had these luxuries for? Not that damned long...so why do you think it's going to keep on being this way?

You really need to get a clue..

Osama will never take D.C. nor will he ever be elected President of the USofA. He and all the other terrorists will NEVER overthrow the USofA.

Who says that Osama wants to take over the USA or be elected??? He just doesn't want us to be in power or, more specifically, for us to be mucking around his homeland. I don't blame him for the latter.

Only we can do that.

You're right, only the USofA can overthrow the USofA...? Do you even know what you just wrote? Ironically, you are correct - the positive kind of change will come from within...but it doesn't seem like Americans are very interested in that right now.

not enough art

[kardar]

You see those commercials about what happens if you don't get enough art in school - well, listen to people tearing apart this movie and about how this thing or that thing is incorrect.

Who cares? That's not the point. I was very, very, very, and I mean VERY sceptical before I saw the movie. I read all of the websites that are critical of Moore. You could say that I had a pretty good idea about what was in the movie, and what was wrong with what was in the movie, before I ever watched it.

But then I said OK - I am going to watch this movie. And it's a cool movie. I like it. I think that if you want to tear apart the movie because it's supposed to be a "documentary" and it's "factually inacurrate" or WHATEVER is irrelevant, that's not really the way it was presented.

You have to use your imagination to understand the larger concepts and the abstract things that make the movie what it is, and similarly, you have to use your imagination to try to believe that tearing those larger, abstract concepts apart has any relevance or merit.

The movie may or may not be this or that, but one thing we need in America is a greater appreciation for art and abstract concepts.

-------------------

I think that what happened with the oil crisis, the Iran hostage crisis - which lead to the Reagan era is a natural sort of balancing out of the excesses that America still represents. Getting fundamental, conservative, and thumping bibles isn't going to stop the natural balancing acts that nature performs on superpowers, or those that try to be and/or become superpowers.

Look at Russia. They were once trying to be a superpower. Look at how now they are completely unable to prevent terrorism. The theatre, and now the school. This is what happens to superpowers. It's not good.

So while fighting against the natural balancing acts that the global environment is presenting to America might be one numb-sculled approach, the end result, the lesson that we should all learn is that it's not good to be a superpower. If you want to drive fast and not get pulled over, don't put sporty stripes and fancy spoilers on your car.

More art, less neo-con philosophy, and a greater ability to defend (that's DEFEND - not preempt). Even peace-loving hippy folks take marital arts self-defence courses from time to time. The neo-con philosophy has its own dictionary entry for defense - what most normal folks would call offense. Micheal Moore, appropriately, has his own dictionary entry for documentary - and if you don't get enough art, you won't "get" that.

Moore "controversial"? Or is Bush "controversial"?

[fcassia_at_gmail]

So apparently Moore is "controversial"... let's see:

Rumsfeld shaking hands with Saddam in the 80s
http://i.cnn.net/cnn/2002/US/09/30/sproject.irq.re gime.change/rumsfeld.80s.jpg

America's WMD: Air Force tests "mother of all bombs"
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/2020/iraq_moab03 0311.html

"In a flashy debut for its biggest non-nuclear bomb, the Air Force today dropped a 21,000-pound behemoth onto a test range in Florida"

"Anthrax sent to U.S. senate matches Army strain"
http://www.cnn.com/2001/HEALTH/conditions/12/18/an thrax.investigation/

CNN: Army confirms anthrax production in Utah
http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/12/12/army.anthrax/

BUSH SPURNS BIOLOGICAL WEAPONS BAN
http://www.guardian.co.uk/bush/story/0,7369,494257 ,00.html

"a 1972 treaty banning biological weapons has been added to the list of international protocols Bush has decided to ignore"

U.S. accused of trying to derail anti-torture pact
http://www.photius.com/rogue_nations/torture.html

"The United States on Tuesday was accused of trying to derail a new draft international treaty against torture that has taken a decade to negotiate."

"The treaty, which is to be debated in the U.N. Economic and Social Council beginning on Wednesday, would set up an international system of inspections for all sites where prisoners were held, to insure that torture was not taking place. "

and this:

Document details American plan to bug phones and emails of key U.N. Security Council members
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/iraq/story/0,12239, 905936,00.html

I don't think Moore's film is the cause of "controversy". I think the hawkish Bush administration and previous republican ones are the cause of controversy. Don't shoot the messenger.

Re:Know thy enemy

[GISGEOLOGYGEEK]

You think that's the reason?

I guess you aren't aware that the Bin Laden family is a major investor in the american arms companies ... the Bin Ladens made a great profit through all the government arms contracts needed to replace the weapons used in Iraq.

I guess you also aren't aware that the Bin Laden's are a major oil family, and that by helping Bush destabilize the world oil markets using the false scare tactics, and pinching off the oil supply from Iraq, Bush and his Bin Laden friends have gotten exactly what they wanted ... an oil price that has more than doubled!

In fact, just in July of this year, Americans sent $90BILLION more dollars to saudi arabia to buy oil than they would have with the pre-war / pre-bush prices!

You have no idea how much the Bin Ladens love you dumbass americans.