Slashdot Mirror
PayPal to Fine Gambling, Porn Sites
scubacuda writes "Yahoo! reports that PayPal is taking an aggressive stance against gambling, adult, and non-prescription drug sites: anyone caught using PayPal for these purposes will be charged $500. Eric Jackson, a former PayPal executive and author of the new book 'The PayPal Wars,' calls the new policy 'draconian' and says it is likely a two-fold strategy to discourage certain behavior while heading off regulators."
Now, instead of only worrying that we'll get crappy porn, we have to worry about having our money stolen, and NOT getting crappy porn!
It's only an insult if it's not true.
What right does paypal have to fine people. If its against the terms of service they could shut down the offending account, but fine them?
how am I supposed to catch the monkey and win hentai dvd's made out of pressed viagra now, without resorting to credit cards?
What is the difference? They(ebay) list adult items, why could you not pay for them via Pay Pal?
It could be worse, it could be Monday.
Heaven forbid a private company make money from something sinful like gambling or porn.
Now if we could just get our government out of the gambling business...
Paypal is owned by ebay right now...but how is this going to work if you buy your adult stuff ON ebay?
Ebay does have a whole adult section where you can buy movies, toys etc etc...so will this effect it?
Fined by the same company that your buying adult things from.
Sounds too me like a double standard in the works. I don't think Paypal is trying to discourage this behavior that it finds objectionable...because if it did, then ebay would remove the entire adult section from it's site also.
Just and observation
"Leo Fender was in a 'state of grace' when he designed the Stratocaster." -- Paul Reed Smith
Being someone who does online sports betting, PayPal cut us out a little over 2 years ago.
But it was a practical, not moral cut in my opinion.
The fact of the matter is that in the gambling, adult and I suppose the drug business, you get way too many people who purchase the "product" and then get buyers remorse, and raise all kinds of hell at the card provider, saying it was never them but nefarious internet hooligans who gambled with their Paypal account, or bought that porn subscription to Fatchicks.com.
It became so bad at least in the gambling world that Paypal said the hell with it, and left. Now we have similar providers, but more personal responsibility, too. I actually like it that way.
Uh-oh, I'd better take those PayPal logos off of my website, www.nakedwomengamblingfordrugs.com.
You are in error. No-one is screaming. Thank you for your cooperation.
PayPal's outdated. They're on a social engineering crusade.
Use e-gold instead.
I really hope that this isn't the beginning of a new trend. How long until VISA won't let you buy beer or cigarettes and MasterCard charges a 50% tax on Penthouse? When payment methods start enforcing their own moralities on their costumers, something is seriously wrong.
This might have an interesting effect on PayPal's financial classification (I recall arguments back when it became popular over whether or not it counted as a bank, mostly in terms of what regulations it had to obey). Are there any laws regarding this sort of discriminatory service fees by banks? Would doing this disqualify PayPal from any commercial status it was hoping to attain or maintain?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't adult sites legal, in this country at least?
And last I heard, on-line drugs are legal in general, if there is a real doctor on staff..
Sooo. how can pay-pal *fine* these people? Its not their job to play moral police...
Sure they can just refuse to do business with them, if they don't agree with the morality of the business, that is their right.. but FINES???
No I didn't RTFA, it wouldn't load..
---- Booth was a patriot ----
You cannot get someone's paypal payment unless you sign up for a paypal merchant account.
It's no longer allowed to add a surcharge to ebay auctions to cover paypals 3% fee when you have a merchant account. Thus, you not only have to pay for listing your actions on ebay, you also have to pay to get your money.
I wish ebay had a little competition.
However PayPal is actually fining the PayPal user, not the sites.
Should read: PayPal to Fine Users for Gambling, Porn Sites
Actually, even if they have legal title, you still have equitable title.
So, PayPal holds your money in a Trust.
So, normal Trust Law rules apply.
With the caviet that you told them what they could do with your money when you signed the "Terms of Service" contract.
It's getting increasingly difficult to fund online poker accounts, which are enormously popular in light of the World Poker Tour and other televised events.
It looks like were seeing a new era of regulation through threat of regulation. The offshore drug sites are providing a valuable service too: AIDS activists lobbied to be allowed to import personal-use supplies of experimental drugs not yet approved domestically. They're also the main source of nootropics like Piracetam and Hydergine.
How would you feel if your bank said, "Write a check at the porn store, and we're charging you $500!"
It's a violation of our freedom. I've never, ever liked Paypal for their ability to screw the consumer without answering to anyone for any reason. There's a lot of discontent out there... just search for Paypal sucks sites... there are a lot of them. Thank god I don't have an account.
-- No sig for you!
PayPal is an unregulated global banking monopoly. The porn and gambling industries are some of the most intense hothouses of commercial Internet development. Darwinian pressure is creating an opportunity for a PayPal competitor which will give consumers an alternative. The world is in a sorry state when porn and gambling are our best hope for freedom, but it does sound familiar.
--
make install -not war
Any site that has advertising popups on the main page, has no titles on pages, and panders to people who will believe anything anyone says, as long as it's backed in allegedly real gold... well... (Hey, nobody ever said /. only had intelligent people.)
Almost every single reply so more is complaining that its none of Paypal's business to enforce their morals on the user. Anyone who has said something like that is a mindless slashdot troll who doesn't know anything about 3rd party processing or merchant accounts. Most merchant account providers have banned adult sites and gambling for years because they are High Risk Industries. Its not just adult and gambling, many processors also ban game servers, IRC-related sites, MLM schemes, make $3000-working-from-home-sites, etc. These types of websites are highly likely to attract stolen credit cards, credit card fraud, and chargebacks. It costs the merchant provider money every time a chargeback is done, and it takes both time and money to fight a chargeback. So please do a little research into the world of credit card processing before you go on a rant about PaPal's religious crusade. They are simply trying to decrease fraudulent transactions. If you don't agree with their policies or the $500 fine, you can opt to use a different company which does allow adult and gambling merchants, but beware you will probably have higher transaction fees, more thorough background checks, and possibly a several day ACH hold on any funds you receive.
Here is the google cache of the All About Romance newsletter (it seems to have disappeared from the site) which is a newsletter about romance novels and give a good idea about how specifically people are being affected:
http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:lfrekzaQLGAJ: ww w.likesbooks.com/184.html+&hl=en
Some interesting quotes:
"PayPal can be used to buy and sell pre-1980s issues of Playboy, Playgirl, and Penthouse. On eBay, these can be categorized as "Collectibles" rather than as "Mature Audiences.""
"Books classified as "romantica" - ie. books about people falling in love and making love are not allowed - but who is to say what is romantica and what is just hot romance? Print romances seem to get a pass. Readers can go onto eBay and find print erotic romances such as those published by Kensington's Brava line. They can also find books far more explicit than erotic romance novels for sale, and their PayPal payments will be accepted. The Claiming of Sleeping Beauty, one of Anne Rice's BDSM novels, is one obvious example of this."
"According to Brenna Lyons, when the new policy went into effect, many people noticed that the adult content guidelines were vague. For that reason, many publishers of sensual and erotic books asked PayPal to check out their sites. PayPals adult content guidelines are open to interpretation and so changes can be made. PayPal did, in fact, assure the publishers that their sites were acceptable.
Early in 2004, almost a year after the announcement of the new policy, PayPal began freezing the accounts of publishers, writers, and even readers of erotic romance. Brenna herself knows of four publishers, five self-published authors, and two review sites that had their accounts frozen by PayPal.
What happened to warrant such drastic action? PayPal was investigating them for violations of their Terms of Service (TOS). When an account is under investigation it can be frozen for up to 180 days.
Though those under investigation often disagree, Amanda Pires says that the investigation is "not an invasive process." PayPal doesn't contact the vendor until they've decided it's violating the Acceptable Use policy. They will, however, investigate sites on the basis of a single complaint. According to Amanda, this is because PayPal "encourages people to let them know because the Internet is so large." She adds, though, that while a single complaint is enough to start an investigation, that single complaint isn't enough to get PayPal to take action against a vendor. As part of this investigative process, PayPal staff review both the sites and the content. In the case of an electronic publisher, they might ask for downloads of the books. In a case like that, the process could take longer because they have to evaluate books rather than just evaluating a web site.
The evaluation process involves trying to determine "whether or not the sexual content is a small or insignificant part of the book." Ms. Pires adds, "We allow PayPal to be used to sell a book, not based on length or number of loves scenes, but on the topic or intent of the book. If the sexual scenes or content is part of the story line but not the primary purpose of the book, then PayPal can be used to sell the book." Staff members performing this evaluation must decide whether the books adhere to the Acceptable Use policy. When performing these evaluations, the staff members "try to be as fair as possible."
Many authors and publishers of erotic romances who have been investigated disagree that PayPal treated people in their industry fairly. According to Brenna Lyons, no warning was given to small publishers and self-published authors that they were about to be investigate. Their PayPal accounts were suddenly frozen. "Just wake up one morning and have your account frozen. If you happened to have most of your working capital in there, you were screwed. Pardon the frank language. Here's the cute part. When they started going after the big boys, they gave them
Step 1: Buy an eBay share (Unless you have some already). They own PayPal.
Step 2: Sue the company for abusing minority shareholder rights. I mean, in what way is it in the shareholder's interest for the company to pursue some kind of wonky moral agenda?
(They do have this concept for publically traded companines in the 'States right?)
Anything that resizes my browser window automatically gets a /dev/IGNORE entry from me.
Man I hate that... not to mention the ads and pop-ups.
PayPal is a private business. You agree to give them the right to fine you for those actions when you sign up with them. If you don't like the fines, get a MasterCard or something.
But on the other hand, I doubt PayPal is going to catch many people. As long as you don't include "Here's my $500 bet for the game tonight. Gambling Rocks!" I doubt they're going to check every transaction. As long as you aren't dumb about it, I don't really know what they're going to do. I'm not saying keep doing what you're doing, just be careful about it. Don't send money to 'Bets@GamblingOnline.com', or use comments that show it.
But really, if you don't like it, don't do business with PayPal. As long as they get you to agree to it when you sign up, it's fine for them to do it, it's up to read the fine print if you're going to be doing risky stuff like that. And there's a clause in there (like in everything) that says they reserve the right to update the TOS/AUP whenever they want, and that you automaticially agree to it.
Paypal sees that porn, gambling, and viagra sales generate a lot of customer complaints. People tend to claim they didn't want the item, it wasn't them, somebody stole their identity, etc. Like any business, they're trying to limit their losses.
Those transactions are all very spammy. Add hot stock tips and Nigerian crown princes and you've pretty summarized my 'caughtspam' folder.
Paypal doesn't want to be in the liability loop for kiddie porn, illegal gambling, and illegal drug sales.
Paypal wants to keep a clean image, and genuinely don't want those transactions. I kind of doubt this was a factor, but there's always hope.
sigs, as if you care.
Use FIREPAY or NETTELLER (google them for info). They are RELIABLE and they aren't interested in being Big Brother or monitoring your online habits.
F Pay Pal.
GetTheJob.com : Nothing but Real Jobs.
They can have whatever policy they want, but they are not going to impose fines on me for breaking it.
Incidentally, the "Mature Audiences" category includes "items that you have to be 18 or over to purchase", which would seem to include any 18-rated film whether pornographic or not.
K
Paypal doesn't have any of my money in their accounts, it's all in my bank and credit card accounts until I actually order something...
(Truck Rent-A-Center, Inc. v Puritan Farms 2nd, Inc., 41 NY2d 420, 425 [1977]; see Fingerlakes Chiropractic, P.C. v Maggio, 269 AD2d 790 [4th Dept. 2000]; Benderson v. Poss, 142 AD2d 937 [4th Dept. 1988]; Pyramid Centres & Co. v Kinney Shoe Corp., 244 AD2d 625 [3d Dept. 1997].)
It's up to a court to decide whether $500 is proportional to the actual loss incurred by PayPal. You usually don't get to count administrative time as costs in contract disputes; it has to be an outside expense.
We are moving to a cashless society, even McDonalds is now accepting credit & debit cards. While I initally resisted using a debit card, the fact is I use it all the time now and often only keep $10 or $20 in my wallet simply because just about anything I purchase can be made with the debit card. It makes tracking my finances much easier. Now while I wouldn't expect to buy smack from the local drug dealer with a card, I would expect to be allowed to purchase anyting legal. Credit card companies stopped processing gambling debts years ago due mostly to government pressure, (and chargebacks, I know) But the bottom line is gambling is generally illeagal unless it is 'sponsored' by the state. It is a scary idea that any finacial company starts down the path of restricing money transfers based on morals. I think others will follow...
wanted: one clever sig,apply within
RTFA.
"The new policy, which takes effect Sept. 24 and applies to both buyers and sellers,"
This is a pure money-grab by Paypal; they're doing it to sites they think support piracy as well. This profiteering off illegal activity, in many cases(not for legitimate porn and legal gambling, but certainly for piracy)- and I can't wait for a US attorney to fire up an investigation against them, because the scumbags deserve it. Among other things, by seizing the money, they're proving they knew it was obtained illegally. Posession of stolen funds, anyone?
Please help metamoderate.
PayPal's questionable policy has also hurted the artist of the excellent adult comic "Sexy Loser". PayPal has shut down his account although he doesn't sell any adult oriented material, he only asked for donations on his site.
PayPal currently is the MicroSoft of micropayment, it seems... which is very sad. Why they piss of their customers like this is beyond me. I can't understand how they could NOT like to make more money ?! Excluding adult material is surely a big financial loss, isn't it ?
This whole thing gives me a great idea...
Send someone you don't like $10.00 through PayPal (from an alternate email address, of course). Wait a week, then complain to PayPal that, despite sending the money and after "numerous attempts to settle the transaction", you still haven't received the copy of "The Olsen Twins Fuck a Goat Volume 3" (or the Canadian Viagra) that you paid ten bucks for.
Your enemy will be fined $500.00 for just $10.00 and a few emails. Not a bad return on investment, eh?
"Was it a millionaire who said 'Imagine No Posessions?'" -- Elvis Costello
Now that PayPal's intent to control not only your money but your morality is clear, their 'strategy' practically begs for a competitor to rise up against them - one who markets based on the fact that they WON'T tell you how you can and cannot spend your money.
Max
My god carries a hammer. Your god died nailed to a tree. Any questions?
you pay for porn? caveat emptor, amigo. the first thing a geek learns is you don't have to pay for it (in the virtual world anyway).
This is my Sig, this is my Gun. One is for Slashdot and one is for Fun.
while i dislike gambling, adult, and non-prescription drug sites, who are paypal to fine them? i sure hope that they are not the custodians of the "values, morals, etc.." of society, because paypal are nothing but a bunch of crooks who will not hesitate to use any means to defraud their customers. if they indeed feel so strongly about "gambling, adult, and non-prescription drug sites", why not deny them service instead? but, of course they will not do so, they will offer their services to them, and skim the $500 fine.
the chargeback numbers for these types of merchants are incredible. it's an issue of Paypal losing money... not any type of feigned morality.
. SLASHDOT: Home of the vicious nerd.
The fine can also be levied for ordering prescription drugs fron any firm online which isn't certified re:
" Under the new policy, prescription drug sellers who do not have Verified Internet Pharmacy Practice Sites certification from the National Association of Boards of Pharmacy, and the people who buy from them, also face fines and possible legal action if they do business using PayPal."
So if I buy Piracatem over the net as it is not available without a prescription in the US, PayPal can fine me and otherwise bring legal action against me? A convenient financial middleman is now a pimp of the FDA and Big Pharma as well as for Religious Nuts attempting to take over the US government?
This is way, way too much. If this is not rescinded then I am pulling all funds out of Paypal and closing my account. I don't pay bloody creeps for their malicious behavior.
Lest people think that these days porn is half the net... it always was, and in a sense you could argue pr0n drove the development of the net like any good student of the human animal would assume it would.
Until 1995 the UUCP network had more nodes than the TCP/IP connected internet. What did the UUCP network carry? News and mail. That's it. That's all you could do with UUCP (modulo some half baked ftp by mail schemes). Before uu.net became the first commercial backbone, UUCP traffic was shuttled site to site by "some guy you knew" who gave you a feed, and at either 1200 or 2400 baud (no, I'm not kidding) but when uu.net came out you could BUY a DECENT feed and by Dod use Telebit Trailblazer modems at 19.2K. But who would pay $400 a month to get usenet?
Engineering managers addicted to porn, that's who. "We need it for technical reasons. We cannot do our work without it" always worked. As long as we found them porn, they'd pay for talk.bizarre.
Having created alt.sex by mistake one day I really think uunet's Rick Adams, uunet's founder, should have given me some sort of profit sharing.
Oh well, that's how you can tell internet pioneers, they're the ones with the arrows in their feet.
Need Mercedes parts ?