60 Years Later: The V2 And The Space Race

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60 Years Later: The V2 And The Space Race

Posted by timothy on Sunday September 12, 2004 @12:12AM from the man-of-reknown dept.

securitas writes "In a two-part feature written sixty years after the V2 rocket was first launched on London, BBC News Online's Paul Rincon describes the Soviet-American space race, German V2 rocket technology and how the USSR and USA divided Germany's best scientists between them. The second part addresses the technological lineage of both space programs, the creation of NASA, intercontinental ballistic missile (ICBM) development and the V2's legacy. Another feature provides some context, following the history of the development of the V2 rocket from its precursors that began with space flight enthusiasts like Wernher von Braun and Walter Riedel, through its use as a terrifying weapon in the London Blitz, to the recruitment drive by the Americans and Soviets. Today the V2 rocket is being used as the basis for the Canadian Arrow X Prize team. The Arrow team has some pages on V2 history and the main engine thrust chamber. For those interested you can read more at the A4 / V2 Rocket Resource site."

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Nazi Germany by u-238 · 2004-09-12 00:21 · Score: 3, Insightful

and the births of (von Braun, Riedel, etc.) its ethos single handedly launched the world into the space age.

Never forget that.
1. Re:Nazi Germany by jolyonr · 2004-09-12 00:46 · Score: 4, Insightful
  
  The only thing Nazi Germany wanted to do was build new technical devices to kill people - the fact that their ballistic missies had peaceful applications is space flight was noted by the scientists at the time, and much theoretical work was done by German scientists in the war (eg Sanger), but it remained in their minds and on paper. All the Nazis wanted were devices capable of killing more people at a greater distance. That was their ethos.
  
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2. Re:Nazi Germany by Trurl's+Machine · 2004-09-12 01:19 · Score: 5, Insightful
  
  The only thing Nazi Germany wanted to do was build new technical devices to kill people
  
  Antropomorphisms like this are dangerous. It's so tempting to say "Russia wants to conquer Tschetschenya" or "USA want to justify Guantanamo to the public opinion", but you should always remember there is no such person as Uncle Sam or Mother Russia. Whatever George W. Bush wants or needs, it's not necessarily what every American or even majority of Americans want or need. It's also dangerous when you talk about dictatorship, as there was more in Third Reich than just Hitler and his crazy followers. What we know about Werner von Braun is that he was interested in rocket science "as such" - his lifelong dream was a manned mission to Mars. He worked for Hitler not because he loved him, but simply because for a German rocket scientist in 1940's there weren't really any other options. When you say "That was their ethos" you should consider who do you mean by "they". Them-Nazis? Sure, you're right. Them-German scientitst? You are obviously wrong.
3. Re:Nazi Germany by TGK · 2004-09-12 01:53 · Score: 2, Insightful
  
  This is not flamebait! The Nazi regime was an Evil one with horrific purpose, but to condem the German people as a whole for its crimes is tantamount to condeming all Southerners for the acts of the KKK.
  
  The Nazi regime ruled Germany through terror tactics. Without doubt, the attacks on the German industral base were founded and necessary attacks to cripple the industrial power of the German State. The attack on Dresden (a protected city and a refugee camp) was not necessary, nor was it honorable. We hit Dresden because the Germans hit Coventry. We carried out the raid because we knew the Germans were going to hit Covernty and couldn't act on that information without giving away the breaking of Enigma. We did it because we were angry.
  
  War is a horrible thing. The Nazi regime was a horrible thing. This does not excuse the Allies' actions at Dresden. There is a difference between war and murder. In war they enemy can shoot back. Dresden was a strictly civilian target.
  
  To be fair, most of the Scientists we tood weren't kidnapped so much as given a choice. The choice wasn't a very good one, and it didn't make the US or the USSR look terribly good in the eyes of the world, but it was a choice. The weapons these individuals helped make killed a lot of people. While the individual german laborer had little impact on the war and could not realisticly make much of a difference, those at the top helping develop the Nazi superweapons were capable of making a huge difference. Their decision to stay in Germany and comply with the requests of the Nazi goverment made them colaborators. In exchange for their services we were willing to overlook that whole "being a Nazi" problem.
  
  I'm not sure what you mean by slave labor, in your previous context. The US did not, to the best of my knowledge, use slave labor in the development of its space program. Of course, the early days of the US economy were fed from the tit of Slavery. While US slavery was not nearly as brutal as the practices employed by the Europeans in the Carribian, it was and is a disgrace and a black mark in the history of this country. It's hard to draw a line from that to the space program though.
  
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4. Re:Nazi Germany by Bromrrrrr · 2004-09-12 03:37 · Score: 2, Insightful
  
  Wow, did you take that from a Nazi propaganda poster about jews or something?
  
  Anyway, was there anything incorrect about what the grandparent said?
  
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Re:Does it mention by u-238 · 2004-09-12 00:38 · Score: 2, Insightful

Which entirely negates the credit of Germany with fathering rocket science, right?
Re:Does it mention by donscarletti · 2004-09-12 01:08 · Score: 3, Insightful

I think the article is about the scientific development, not the actual construction. And I think the fact that they were constructed with slave labour is fairly irrelivant since they would have been evil weapons even if they were created by well-payed union workers with health benifits, dental care and 8 weeks holiday a year.

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Does not compute... by tpgp · 2004-09-12 01:17 · Score: 2, Insightful

.....On 4 October 1957, the Soviets launched Sputnik I..... .....America's first attempt to launch a satellite ....was an embarrassing failure.....
. ....The space race was underway..... (much snipping)

WTF? The Russians get into space and later on the space race is on? Hadn't the russians won (by being first into space?)

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Canadian content by Easy2RememberNick · 2004-09-12 02:42 · Score: 3, Insightful

Don't forget the Avro Arrow, which the Canadian entry is named after, was a jet fighter that was very advanced for its time. The program was cancelled by the Canadian government due to pressure from the US government.

Most of the engineers who worked at Avro went to work for the US space program. Yet again picking the best scientists from the spoils of, this time, a political war.

It boggles the mind all those connections.

If you're in Canada visiting mention "Avro Arrow" and see what reaction you get even now all these years later.

Arrow info
Re:The best Germans by mikrorechner · 2004-09-12 02:56 · Score: 3, Insightful

They might be a bit deluded when they think of themselves as a master race (well, only some of them do)
Next time, will you please write a sentence like that in the past tense? Thank you very much.

I assure you, right now there are no more people in Germany thinking of themselves as the "master race" than there are people in the US thinking of their nation as superior to others.

Oh, wait...

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"Oh, a lesson in not changing history from Mr I'm-my-own-Grandpa." - Dr Hubert Farnsworth
Re:Sub launched V2? by Waffle+Iron · 2004-09-12 03:04 · Score: 3, Insightful

I can't find in the several article where it mentions improved accuracy. However, von Braun's next project, the US Redstone missile, had an accuracy of 300m at a similar range as the V2. Although measured in "meters", this accuracy is just about totally useless for conventional weapons targeting.
High altitude bombers had similar accuracy, and it usually took countless thousands of bombs per raid to effectively destroy major targets. Each large bomber raid carried more explosive power than the all V2s combined delivered over the entire life of the program.
Moreover, submarine-based launches would have lacked the frame-of-reference required to accurately aim the missiles even if they had perfect guidance.
Insightful? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-12 05:10 · Score: 1, Insightful

I can't comment on the article, as I have not read it yet, but reading the article on /. it is somehow revealing that slave labor is not mentioned. Reading a lot of the things about the V2 one gets the impression that people like to forget this part of history.
As for slave labor being irrelevant, I think the thousands who died, and the thousands who survived it but had to live with the consequences for the rest of their lives would tend to disagree.

Finally, my dear mods, the V2 was produced with slave labor and if someone mentions this fact he is not a troll (your modding is disgusting), just as someone who claims that slave labor is irrelevant doesn't have to be considered insightful.
Re:Sub launched V2? by Waffle+Iron · 2004-09-12 08:37 · Score: 2, Insightful

Much like the US atomic program, it was mearly the fact that it worked at all that caused mearly FEAR of the weapon to be enough to achive their goals.
Except that it didn't work. I've never seen anybody suggest that Great Britain considered surrendering due to fear of the V2.
The Germans were WAY ahead of their time in weapons development
Yes, and they dedicated so many resources into this not-yet-effective weapons system that it hastened their defeat. With the guidance systems of the 40s-60s, missiles weren't really worthwhile without nuclear warheads. Conventional warhead missiles didn't become worthwhile until precision terminal guidance was introduced in the 1970s with cruise missiles.
Re:Nazi tech by Bender_ · 2004-09-12 08:45 · Score: 2, Insightful

And the allies came up with:

Nuclear weapons
True

Computers
Nope, Konrad Zuse of germany was first. However the Nazis failed to take advantage of it.

RADAR
Both sides had radar before the war, the achievement of the british was the magnetron, enable extremely high power and high frequency radar.

Supersonic 20,000lb bombs
They were just scaled up conventional bombs. I fail too see the achievement. May also be interesting to note that the allies did not have any targets for 20,000lb bombs on their side.

Jet aircraft (before the Germans)
No, not true. Germans were definitly first on this.

Seemingly unbreakable encryption (even today)

AFAIK RSA was developed in the 70ies.. ... but it was only their V2 program that was of any interest to anyone after the war

How about astonishing progress in aviation (Jet planes, Sangers concepts, guidance systems, control systems etc.), U-Boats (all modern submarines follow their concepts now),high speed roads (dont ask me but they developed special processes required to build these),chemical/process engineering (nazi germany virtually lived of coal and air!), chemistry.. etc etc.